Oh, and welcome to the Gifted Life Podcast, where we have conversations about Oregon, tissue, and eye donation. I'm Roy Steele. Hi, I'm Joey Boudreau. I'm Sally Gentry.
Again, on the show today, he's the brother of an A-lister, proud to say it. It's quite a story to tell. Yes, he does. Over 25 years after transplant, his heart is still going strongly.
Yeah, we're going to pick his brain. And we're going to talk about interpreting body language. Why should we do it? Why?
What's happening? What's happening? I'm watching you. I'm watching you.
I'm nervous. All right, so obviously I'm going to be taking notes and watching you out there. All right. I'm going to spur those healthy conversations about donation, guys.
So our ask is that you share what we learn here together. So Joey, we try to make it as easy as possible to find. Once you find us, read and subscribe. You can find us on Apple Podcast, Google Play, whatever your favorite podcast that might be.
And we are now again on what? Spotify. That is awesome. You're excited about that on a little social media, darling.
That's right. I like it. Or of course, you can always find us at our website, thegiftedlife.org. Thegiftedlife.org.
I'm repetitive today. I like that. All right. On social media, Facebook, you can follow us the Gifted Life Podcast, Twitter, and Instagram, at Gifted Life Pod.
Lots of good information there. And you can see the pictures you can interact with us. We really want to hear from you because you, you're right there. You're part of our team.
So we have lots to get to on this episode, episode 103. So we're going to jump right in here on the Gifted Life special guest joining us to talk about an incredible story and how this person is paying it forward. Michael Kutcher joins us now. How are you, sir?
I'm doing great. How are you? We are good guys. We're excited to have them on.
Thanks for taking the time. So if you do a quick Google search, your name pops up all over, right? So you're the twin famous actor Ashton Kutcher. Yeah.
We're focusing on you because you have a tie to our mission, which is to save more lives through transplantation. And so we're glad that you're here. We want you on our team to help save more lives. And so can you take us back?
Tell us your story. Why don't you take it from there? Where to help again, right? Birth maybe.
I know. Yeah, it's a number of years ago, 27 years ago in December. So I was, you know, in 1991, in eighth grade, you know, enjoying life as a normal 13 year old. And you know, we're enjoying our Thanksgiving break, I think, as every eighth grader probably does with, you know, week and a half day changing.
Right. You know, I just had kind of flu-like symptoms. Didn't really know what was going on. At that point, you know, my parents were, well, my mom was hesitant to take me to a physician because, you know, if it's a flu, it's just, you know, it's going to pass and things will go by and you'll get better, right?
And when you usually go doctor, they just tell you, hey, it's my role, go home and take some aspirin and you'll see another day. And what Ashley occurred is being at home for a week, things working better. I was, you know, dehydrated, can keep a boot down, just ill. And so my mom took me into the area of hospital and at that point, I was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy, viral cardiomyopathy.
And I was told that I needed a transplant. So I read somewhere that when you were diagnosed, I said I was reading, you know, lots of articles about you, but it said that your heart was actually four times the size of a normal heart for someone, your age and your size. So that's scary. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So I had medication, nothing from birth. I just got sick and you're correct.
I mean, my heart was four times the size. And you know, at that point, when I diagnosed the cardiologist actually told me that, you know, it was, it was worse than just needing a transplant because obviously my family's there and at 13 years old, I'm not, I'm not really catching the gravity of what's going right. No doubt. Right.
I often joke when I speak to people and tell them, you know, I'm thinking to myself, okay, you know, I got two questions. You know, how am I going to be a school? How much ice cream you're like, I'm thinking. That's important questions.
Exactly. Right. Because I'm thinking like, you know, they've got a heart and like a pickle jar or something or other than throwing me right. Of course.
Yeah. I think I really call the ground view of the situation when a family member asked the cardiologist, you know, how long do we have? And that was a question when I was, you know, just call our guard by and you know, the cardiologist pretty straight forward guy just he liked me and just said, you know, I give you three to four weeks. Yeah.
So I think at that moment, I kind of plot what was going on. Say the least. And you know, I think it's just kind of evolved from there. I would be transferred to the University of Iowa Hospital and Clerks and I would be, you know, somewhat misdiagnosed where I was told that, you know, I don't need a transplant.
Like you said, my heart was four times the normal heart. They felt that they could decrease the inflammation, the medication and that, you know, I would be fine and I'd be able to go home. I stayed in hospital for about two and a half weeks and then just hit cardiac arrest. Wow.
And so when I hit cardiac arrest, I was placed on a ventricle pump. Nowadays they have LDADs, let ventricle assistance devices to allow people to go home and be active with battery operated pump. 27 years ago, they had what I referred to as big birth. I like a huge machine that like pumped your blood for you in and out of your heart.
But the downfall of being on this machine was you could only be on it for 48 hours before the tissue would die. Wow. That's a lot for a teenager. I like to take in this.
Yeah. So, so the sense of urgency, you know, definitely got heightened at that point. And at that point, I was actually put on the list for a transplant. I had been on it before because they thought that they could decrease the inflammation.
So, you know, here I am, as you guys well know, people, people wait for months, years, to find the right match. Especially back then, you know, because it was still so new, you know, we talked in 27, you know, years ago, and it wasn't still experimental at the time, but still it was very much in its infancy, you know, compared to now. Well, very much. I mean, at the University of Iowa, I think I was number 58, the 58th transplant that they ever had performed.
So, we still even relatively new to my surgeons. All right. One, did y'all, I mean, the family talk about it? Did we, what do we think about donation at that point?
I mean, I never heard of your perspective. You're just a teen. You're older, like, did your parents tell you? Like, what did we, what do you think at that time?
Well, in terms of just what my overall, what my family's perspective was on donation. Yeah, transplantation and donation. Yeah. What was interesting is, we never had a basis ever before in my, in my family, thankfully.
But the year before, you know how many sign up for benefits for your employer every November for the next year? Previous year, my mother had actually signed up for employer benefits, and she elected for like $2 a month to get critical care insurance, which covered transplants. Wow. Wow.
So decision, huh? Yeah, great decision. And lo and behold, I mean, we utilized it, you know, is it, it's a huge burden. I mean, healthcare costs, they're a big burden for your family to enter financially.
But thankfully we had that covered. But really, that was the only discussion anyone's ever had. I don't think it's going to happen to you. Right.
So then they tell you, you have basically 48 hours on this machine. You need a heart. So take us through that. And, you know, that time where you found out that you do now possibly have a second chance.
Well, 48 hours. Yeah. At this point when I'm on the machine, I'm in cash data. I have no idea what's going on.
That's going from mom. Yeah. Very scary for mom and for my entire family. You know, my brother and I, of course, have always had a very tight connection.
And, you know, it was a trying time for the whole family. I couldn't imagine losing one of my siblings while losing my twin brother. I'd be devastating no matter what he's done that. You know, just we were graced that in 24 hours, you know, halfway into that time period, we got the call and I'm blessed that someone gave me the gift and the gift of life to be able to survive and be the individualized.
So Michael, were you able to make contact with your donors' family from any time or? Yeah, you know, it took a while for me to feel comfortable to reach out. There's a lot of just, you know, emotion that goes into that. And there's a lot of thoughts that go into the event that just occurred.
Right. You know, regardless of whether an individual might die in a car accident or they might, you know, die of another type of death, someone gave their life for you. And unless you've been through that type of emotional roller coaster, it's one that you've got to process and get through. So it took me a number of years to actually absorb that and kind of, you know, digest that.
And once I did, I did reach out to them. As you know, you have the ability to write a letter to the last known address. And if someone's there and wants to receive it and respond, it's, you know, their decision. Or if you can't find them, if they've moved or they choose not to respond, no indication is given to yourself.
So I did reach out. I wrote a heartfelt message to them with much love and thanks and appreciation. But unfortunately, I, for one reason or another, one of those two reasons, I've been unable to to contact them. And it's, it's something I would love to do.
You know, it's just an emotional thing for me. And it's a having a transplant for me. Is it gone 27 years? It's no longer about me.
It's no longer about the, you know, what I tried to live up to for my donor in the life I tried to live for my donor 14 years ago. I had a son. And for me, it's, it's about, yeah. Wow.
And I still, I mean, you probably hear my voice is still getting emotional about this. It's about the living legacy and as a parent, you want to see your child do the best they can do. And for me, it's just a little bit more sweet. Great for you.
So you were 13, got a new heart, a second chance. And so life after that was pre-normal. Yeah. I mean, relatively normal, you know, after heart transplant, you can't be very active.
You've got to, you know, have some dietary restrictions. You have to play contact sports, you have to get medication. But I mean, like it's all people, like, you know what, I wake up every day, you know, what, what more can you ask for? And yeah, I mean, relatively, it was normal.
I live a very normal life. And I always have. And I think that that's one of the things that has allowed me to be so successful in 27 years out. I know I'm in Madeline.
I know that most people don't get this this far out. That positive can do attitude, huh? Yep. Yeah.
It's a positive. It's not thinking about it. I think it helps. And just, you know, adapt to your circumstances and working through those.
So it's been amazing, Jerry. Well, I love that you pay it forward. And so that's what we wanted to focus on. So you had this 27 years, the second chance.
You have a family, you have children. I want to know how you talk to them about donation. And then I want to talk about some of the things that you have been doing to help save more lives. I know that you had to be the gift campaign.
So if you want to dive in. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
That's kind of how I speak to my family about this. Yeah, my son is he's very aware of what I do is from a philanthropy standpoint, very supportive. He he's heard me speak as a motivational speaker. And this works into that story.
And he understands my health conditions. And as I mentioned, is supportive. And him himself has indicated the desire to be an organ donor as well. My journey along helping people become more aware and get the registration.
So to speak is, you know, it is about paying it forward. It's about helping them understand that the gift of giving the gift of life to someone isn't, like my case, isn't just giving that individual gift of life. But it's allowing them to impact the host of other people that they interact with. So as a motivational speaker, you know, speaker, I speak to people all the time and get my message of positivity overcoming obstacles in my journey to that and through life.
And, you know, I can't help but think that inspired one or two of those to do greater, better things. I'm sure you have. What you wanted to. Yeah, it's it's it's about my son and the legacy of left is about, you know, my grandchildren someday.
And without that one donor, none of that would be possible at all. So I think that when people become more educated on the subject, then they can act better. And I think that the timing is also important as well. Because we speak to people about wearing donation at the DMV.
Right? When you get when you get your driver's license, no one wants to think about their legacy and their and their death when they're getting their driver's license. It's a better conversation when we're maybe speaking to financial advisor about life and trust. Maybe we are signing up for our employee benefits.
Maybe we're speaking to a lawyer about wills and trusts. Those are where that conversation I feel needs to occur. I was fortunate enough to donate life to see found me just via social media and introduce this campaign they're doing called Be the Gift. And I think it's a it's a well thought out campaign that really targets awareness as well as the need to increase registration all in one.
Fantastic campaign. That was awesome. Yeah. It's yeah.
So you go to the website be the gift today. And you can actually interact with the tool that they have that allows you to put a red bow on yourself as a symbol of awareness for organization. Some of those are creative and clever like we were laughing at some of that. But I got our attention right like make sure to stop scrolling and pay attention.
It does. And I you know I call my dog right. They look cute. And you know it brings awareness and my kind of I came up with the slogan like get your bow on right.
And and it just brings awareness out. It's a fun tool to utilize. And at the same time you can you can register on the site as well. And what's interesting to me when I speak to more the professionals around organization is there is a statistic of 54 to 58 percent of the population is red shirt is Oregon donor.
But 90 percent agree with it. Right. So where is this connect and why the gap? I don't understand and I'm trying to kind of work with that gap and figure out how to expose and target more that gap.
And that's kind of what we're focusing on as well. So the things that you're pointing out are the things that we struggle with as well. We do have an estate planning attorney who came to us and said everybody's asking me about this but needs to be done before this. So now we work on a campaign with him.
So I think it's about those relationships those partners and I think you can start helping us have those conversations with more people. Right. I think that as people need to be if we don't have those conversations in the hospital or with the lawyer with the financial advisor. Then let's start having an epic dinner table.
Right. Death. Yeah. You know, someone say that I've been unfortunate to be so close to death.
I say I've been fortunate. You know, I've been fortunate because it's opened my eyes to a lot of things in the world around me and things to be appreciative of. If we as families as individuals just start having that conversation with our family and understanding their wishes, it's super easy to register. I mean, so there's multiple ways, register, you know, register me.org.
You know, there's be the gift today. Com whatever you would like to, however you would like to do it. If the DMV is the place you want to register, by all means go and register at the DMV. You know, Michael, I think what happens for people is the majority of people, I think are very well meaning.
But when it comes time to actually follow through a little kind of, I haven't a second thought about this. I think that's what happens for people. Now, how can you bridge that gap? Is the real question, I suppose?
Yeah. And, you know, I really always think about this, you know, asking the question of, you know, with no disrespect to individuals. What's your hesitation? Right.
So if there's 54% to maybe I'll tweet this after our conversation here, but if there's 54% to 50% to actually do it. But 90% agree with it. What's the hesitation of clicking about? Well, one of the ideas behind the podcast, you said we just got to get people talking about it around the dinner table.
So that was one of the ideas behind starting this podcast, to spur those healthy conversations. And what we are learning is that so folks who are in the medical world, who don't have anything to do with donation or listening and learning, those who are going into be nurses and they're in colleges, they're using it. And so we're hoping that we're trying to push the needle on that a little bit. And then you're hoping us do that by being a part of this.
And we know that you have some other goals that you'd like to reach us to, increasing the registry, saving more lives. But I think it's a team effort. Like we can do what we're doing here in this state and you where you are in Colorado, but we're really a big team. And I think it's, you know, like they always say, you know, it takes a village.
And it does take a team approach towards doing things. And unfortunately, I don't think that I think in society, we only focus on causes that affect us. That's right. And whether it be, you know, for myself, I support to organ donation and disabilities.
And you know, people are gravitated towards those causes that affect them. And so there's really the answer to why there is that disconnect of people saying they think it's a great thing, but then they don't sign up because you just answered that question, I think. It could be. I don't want to take that full fledged for the answer because I think there might be some other underlying issues.
But that could be a big reason. But I hope that my story sharing my story with you all, sharing it publicly with, as I speak to individuals, makes, makes individuals realize that it could happen to you. Right. That's right.
Thank you. You could happen to, you know, a family member. You just, you don't know. So why not be prepared and have your wishes be known and save a life?
I love it. And I think that we are going to want to have you back on the podcast. I think you have some projects that are cooking that could help tackle some of what you talked about today. So I'm going to keep your number handy, Michael.
But if folks want that, we know that your speaker, you go out, you're funny. You know, you're watching some of your videos. So we enjoy you certainly, but if folks want to know more about you, maybe get in contact with you, how do they do that? A few ways.
First of all, my website, MichaelCorture.com. Pretty easy. Also, I'm pretty big on Facebook and Twitter with a hashtag or a call sign of M Cooks M K U T C H and I'd love to hear from people and hear their stories. And if I can inspire anyone further or enact someone to go to a website, richherme.org or bethagiptoday.com to register and be an organ donor.
Then I've done some good for it. Well, we appreciate you taking the time, sharing your story, making this a priority to talk about organ tissue and I donation. And hopefully we'll do what you just said, save more lives. Thank you, Michael.
Absolutely. Thank you. And this next segment, Joiam, kind of nervous here. Sally is on to something interpreting body language.
When she told me she was researching it more, I got nervous because we're in this tiny room. Of course. And I'm nervous. Obviously showing through here.
Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Teaches.
Sally, you know, when we're having conversation with someone, most of us generally say, well, it's our words account. No. Oh, I've got information here for you. Like 7% of what we're conveying is in our words.
Just seven, seven, seven, seven is vocals. I mean, how is your voice, you know, are you making, you know, raising a tone, this sort of thing. But 55% is what are you doing with the rest of your body? I'm using my hands to talk.
I can't talk. Yeah, that's it. That's it. So, you know, one of the things that, of course, we look at facial expressions because that does tell you some of what's going on.
But, you know, some people are very good at controlling that except, you know, when somebody does catch you and maybe not telling the whole truth, there are certain things which are just, it's a reflex. You cannot change it because heart rate goes up. Your breathing starts to increase. You can't change that.
I mean, I maybe someone out there is really, really good at controlling it. But also when you ask someone a question, you ever notice how occasionally you'll get folks that they kind of, their head kind of jerks a little bit when you ask them a question. Well, you know, many times, you know, people are lying about something. I know it.
I'm thinking, why are you asking a question? Well, again, that's a reflexive sort of thing. Okay. One side or the other, doesn't matter.
Well, no, because people, it just all depends. Now, you know, we're not talking about general every day, someone you know, communication. You're off the hook, Joe. Yeah, you're on the hook.
On this. We're just talking about every day, you run into someone, you have a conversation and you know, maybe they're not being quite honest with you. But when you start watching these different signals because the body can't lie. Yeah.
You cannot control it. I just said the other day, my husband, I said, I had to control my faith. And I hope that I didn't because we were at a ball game and there was some louder parents than they probably should have been. And my face must have been like, shh, shh, don't do that.
Yeah. You give that angry emoji looking for you. Yeah, there you go. There you go.
Hey, let's not do that. Right. But you know what happens to sometimes people get very, very still. Yeah.
Generally, if we're a little bit nervous, we kind of fidget and all that. I'd lip. But every now and then you run across folks that you're talking with them about something and they're just kind of almost an account of tonic state. I mean, they're hardly moving, which means they're trying to figure out how they go on a counter or how they go on respond to this question.
And they don't want to give off any signals to you. What we call that, tells. That's it. That's it's called reading the tell.
That's right. Or they repeat words and phrases on a regular basis. That's me, Sally. I'm guilty.
You go. Well, and you know, because if you, you know, in the field of mental health, a lot of times you do repeat yourself because sometimes people don't hear you. And you want to make sure that you're actually communicating on the same level with one another. They're looking at their phone when I'm telling them.
Very important. Don't worry about the outfit. I just bought Joey. That's it.
And another tell tell sign. Sometimes when you're talking with someone and they don't want to answer a question or deal with the issue that at hand they'll put their hand over their mouth. And when you see that, that is telling you right then and there. Oh, this person, they're having a problem here responding to you.
Even I on that. My friends will thank you later, Sal. Yeah. Well, and you know, people instinctively will cover like their throat or, you know, they fold their arms across their chest or sometimes they'll hold their head.
Not like they're thinking about something. It's just like, Oh, no, I'm going to answer this question or they'll put their hands across their abdomen because it's a vulnerable spot in the way that we think internally. You know, I'm thinking about talking to you and Joey now, right? I'm like, I'm like, I'm here.
What are your signs or tells? That's it. But lastly, but lastly and most importantly, you know, the most honest part of the body are the feet. Okay.
Okay. Because the feet and legs totally nonverbal. Okay. And when people start shuffling their feet, you can tell that they're uncomfortable.
They're nervous. They want to escape. They want to get away from you. And so you find that when it comes to honesty, it decreases as we move up the body from the feet to the head.
And when you see people pointing feet, you know, in a direction, it's, you know, intentional. Where's the door? I'm almost out of here. No, they're okay.
Not from there. Or, you know, toe pointing, usually that means they're happy and everything's good. Um, but then when you see people in a starter position, you know what I'm talking about? How they got one foot kind of upfront and one behind.
That means they're wanting to get away from you. Okay. That's all I probably do. This is not done on a bunch of space.
Or you see people do leg or foot splays, you know, they're standing like, you know, leg spread white apart or whatever. And usually that's a sign of control, intimidation, territorial. That just means I'm wrapping it up. You'll ask another question.
We're moving. Okay. Or you see people crossing their legs and they're standing. That means that they're just totally.
I'm like, I'm crossing my legs now. Well, high comfort. They don't have any difficulty. They're not getting ready to run away from you or anything.
Uh, and then when you have people that are crossing their legs, you know, when they're seated, and it depends on which way they cross their legs dictates what emotion it is. If your leg, say we're sitting next to one another, as we are, Laura, yes, and the outside of your leg is towards me. That means that you're, you're just not real comfortable with me. But if you have the inside of your leg, which would be the most vulnerable for me, I know that you trust me.
You're okay with me. Like now? Yeah. We're okay.
You're like you so. Oh, I'm so glad. And finally, one thing you ever noticed when you're talking with someone, you're just looking at you there and they have their, their feet locked behind the legs of their chair. Yeah, that is a major indicator that this person really is nervous and they don't want to have to deal with you.
So keep that in mind next time. Planting myself. Yeah. So lock behind the chair.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Behind the legs of the chair.
Yeah. Interesting. I see you taking a visual around the room. How are we?
We're looking at it. You think we're okay? Pretty confident. I think you all pretty confident.
I think we're good. I think she's diagnosing us as we speak. All right. That was fun.
That was interesting. Hope you learned a little something too. Maybe have a topic you'd like for her to cover info at thegiftedlife.org. In every episode of the Gifted Life, we like to honor a hero.
Today's episode, that hero is Mark Phillips. And we learn about Mark from his family. Mark Phillips was a youth pastor at a church outside of Portland. In June of 2006, Mark gathered a group to go to Louisiana to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.
His wife, Marissa, stayed home with their eight-year-old son, David. On the morning of June 21st, Marissa received a call that Mark had collapsed. Mark had died. Marissa and the family made the decision to proceed with donation.
Mark was able to donate both Gornias to give sight to two people in the Baton Rouge area, his arm and leg bones and tissue into Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington, D.C. to assist military personnel who had been injured during overseas actions. In November of 2006, Marissa visited Baton Rouge for a remembrance ceremony. And she remembers they took me in like their own.
Marissa has since become involved with donate life northwest to donate her energy to the cause. And now we pause to say thank you to Mark for the gift of life. And our question and answer segment today, how does donation work if a person dies when away from their home state? Do you want to take it?
Yeah. Well, the donation process is in general is the same. One difference would be we always check the registry to see if you've already decided to be an organ donor. And in this case, we would check the registry of the state that you reside.
Or the National Registry Registry registry registry. Or so we always do those, you know, those checks first. Now, the donation itself might change a little bit in timeframes, just in case, say, for example, you've got family members that are coming in from out of state. We'll make sure we do everything in our power to accommodate for that time frame difference.
So but outside of that, the end result is still the same. You are saving a life or multiple lives of those that are waiting on the National waiting list. Hey, and we'd like to hear from you. Your story or question is important.
Your story can inspire others to give the gift of life. You can find us on social media, email and you can even call us by zero four, six four, eight, three, four, seven, seven. Leave us a voice message. And that'll do it for episode one, oh three of the gifted life.
Yeah, we certainly have to thank Michael for sharing his wonderful stories. So inspiring, positive, everything forward. It's just really nice guy and great to have him on. Can't wait to see what he does next, right?
Yeah. And I think it was really good to hear that he wrote to his donors family. You know, even though he said he's not yet made contact, we know just from from our experience that families do like to hear from recipients and sometimes they're just not able to respond. So for him to say so and how much he appreciated it.
For others to hear this, I think is a very important message also. In addition, you know, the owner family saying yes, as he said, didn't just impact him, impacted his now having a son and impacted. I think he said a host of people, you know, with that one. Yes.
So it's so important. We talk about one, but there's so many that the yes impacts. And one never knows that just by Michael talking about this today, that maybe his family will hear. I mean, his donors family, maybe they will hear this podcast and realize how thankful he is.
Never know who we might reach. All right, go on inspiration. Hopefully we reached you to take action. Register me dot org.
That's a national registry, a one stop shop and you can sign up to be a hero to save lives one day and we hope that you do that above all. We hope that you go out and do something that you wouldn't normally do to help us make life happen. That's what it's all about. Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next time.
This is a production of Louisiana organ procurement agency or LOPA. They get to life hosted by Lori Steele, Joey Buudro and Sally Gendry, our executive producer is Kirsten Hines, producer Ishelon Caraway and we are recorded, engineered and mixed in our Covington Louisiana studio by Troy Perez.