Hello, Roy here. I just wanted to let you know that you can listen to The Roy Green Show ad-free on Amazon Music, included with Prime. Taking on the Titans. Standing up for the little guy.
It's The Roy Green Show on the Chorus Radio Network. So glad you're with us on The Green Show on the Chorus Radio Network. Hello to all of our friends in Manitoba listening to CJOB Radio in Winnipeg. We're back on CJOB for an absence of a little while, and great to have you back with us.
And we will be opening up the phone lines before the end of this hour, and then tomorrow we'll have more calling opportunities. I also want to tell you that tomorrow we'll have a member of the Yazidi community on the air with us. I read some horrific stuff over the last several days about what happened to the Yazidis at the hands of ISIS, you know, the people that Justin Trudeau is welcoming back to Canada, reintegrating them, the former Canadians. I guess they're still Canadians.
I wish they weren't, but they'll probably tell you they're not. But Mr. Trudeau is inviting them back because they can do extraordinary work for Canada. There are 200,000 displaced Yazidis, and they were victims of genocide by ISIS.
Canada's entire parliament agreed to that. And yet we've only patriated 1,200 people into this country, 1,200. I received this. It's the opening sentence of an email from a leading member of the Yazidi international community.
Hello, Roy. I find the news about Canada's prime minister's decision disturbing. It is as if with that decision he's endorsing what ISIS have done to the infidels. It's no different than saying, yeah, some people are worthy of respect and living a dignified life, but that is certain people.
They have seen terrible, terrible things, had terrible things done to them. And all we can do in Canada, according to our prime minister and our immigration minister, is bring 1,200 Yazidis into this country. Isn't it Justin Trudeau is constantly telling us we're better than that? Mr.
Trudeau, we're better than that. I'm a member of the Yazidi community on the program with us tomorrow. Now, back to the issue of harassment, abuse, sexual assault, stories that have made headlines across this country, and there's more to come. You can be sure there's much more to come.
And the question becomes, what are the rights of the person who's been assaulted, and what are the rights of the person who's being accused of being an assaulter? And one of the arguments, as you've heard, is that Patrick Brown wasn't given the opportunity to properly present a defense because he was convicted by two anonymous women. And the question is, why should anonymity be granted to somebody who is saying, that person sexually assaulted me or sexually harassed me? Shouldn't an identification go with the person who's making the charge?
And what I've seen by way of communication from you in email and Twitter is that you believe there should have been identification to go along with them. That's the majority of people. But what happens in the workplace? That's where a lot of this activity takes place.
We know that. Lior Samfirou joins me on the Roy Green Show. He's a partner at Samfirou Tamarkin LLP. He's an employment lawyer, employment law specialist.
And Samfirou Tamarkin is in Toronto and in Vancouver. Lior, it's always illuminating. It's always informative to talk to you about these things. So these issues, these stories, are you seeing an increase since the Me Too campaign began?
Are you seeing an increase in numbers of clients, potential clients, calling with sexual harassment, sexual assault claims? Roy, absolutely. Since the Me Too campaign started, since the story started coming up in the media over the past few months, I certainly have been getting a lot of calls, both from individuals who believe and feel that they've been mistreated in the workplace, harassed, whether sexual harassment or otherwise. But I've also been receiving a lot of calls from employers who are saying, these allegations are being leveled against me or against one of my managers, and how do we deal with those?
It's a common, prominent issue. It's really brought to the fore the fact that these issues are not rare. And now a lot of companies are trying to figure out how to deal with that while maintaining confidentiality, maintaining respect for those who may have been harassed, yet still trying to run and operate a business, and it's a very difficult balancing act. Is sexual harassment sexual harassment?
In other words, the definition is the same wherever you are, whether you're in a place of employment or whether you're in Canada's parliament or whether you're in a bar somewhere across this country. Is sexual harassment sexual harassment? Well, the short answer is yes, in the sense that in terms of what the law defines sexual harassment, because that doesn't change. It doesn't change based on who you are, where you work, and who the victim supposedly is.
It's a treatment of a sexual nature that would be considered to be unwelcome and inappropriate. The way it does differ, where we do have different rules, if not in writing, in tactical terms, is when it comes to public figures, and I've said this before, and maybe even talked to you about this before on the show, when it comes to public figures, whether you're a celebrity or a political figure, like Mr. Brown, different rules apply, because at that point, we actually care what the public thinks and what the public perceives, where if I'm a small employer and I have an employee that's been accused of harassing someone, I can deal with that within the confines of my business. I don't have to think about the public at large, and that's where the different rules happen.
When we do care about the public at large, now action has to be taken, because we're asking an employer that is in the public domain, can't afford to have done it, to be seen as being laxed, to be seen as not having acted. So in the practical matters, we do see different rules when it comes to those in the public figures. So if you're a public figure, the public, beyond social media or other opportunities, they become essentially the judge of the jury. Yeah, it's inappropriate, that is, and let me make a clear, I think it's perfectly inappropriate.
That said, if I'm a company and I have my celebrity employee who's in the media, or maybe I'm a party and I have my head of my political party in the media and he's being accused, then I have to do something, because what I care about is what the public thinks. If I'm in the business of making sure the public supports me, then how can I ever do anything to upset that public? And laws have to be put aside at that point, definitions of sexual harassment have to be put aside, and as as wrong as that is, I don't know that there's something else that wants to do in that situation. It's amazing that people haven't learned yet, that they haven't learned, and I know some of these cases are reporting incidents that happened 5, 10, 15 years ago, but I'm sure it's still ongoing.
So let's say someone comes to you, a woman comes to you Monday morning and says, Mr. Semfiru, Lior, I need help. I'm at this company. I've been there for a good number of years, for a long time, and I've been sexually harassed by this same individual, who's a powerful person in that company, for a long period of time as well, and because nothing's happened to him, he's becoming bolder and more aggressive.
What do I do? What do you do for this woman, Lior? Well, the first thing I would try to determine is, well, what do we have to corroborate what's actually transpired, and is it just one person's word versus the other? Are there witnesses?
Are there anything in writing? The other thing I want to immediately try to do is try to determine is, can this be resolved internally? Is there someone this person can go to within the company and seek help, be it a manager, an owner, and a human resources person? Because that should always be the first resource to give the company the opportunity to fix the problem, to get rid of the person and make the situation better.
If that's not possible, because the head person is the one that's doing the harassing, then at that point, we have to contemplate outside intervention. And what I mean by that is legal means, legal action. That may mean a legal action for sexual harassment or a constructive dismissal, which is a situation that happens when the work environment has become intolerable and the person can leave with compensation, and we can seek that compensation in removing the person from the workplace. So try to resolve it internally, and if that's not possible, we resolve it externally, as long as we can appreciate that there's a burden of proof here.
We don't have to be able to prove what's happened. And generally, I'm of the view that a he-said-she-said type of scenario is not a good one for the harassed employee. Ideally, there has to be something more. The police have to get involved.
Absolutely. And in situations, it becomes more than just harassment and into assault when there's physical contact and physical power that's been exerted. And yes, in some situations, the police would have to get involved and investigate. Remember, the police and criminal law suggest that there's a different standard, which is guilty of a reasonable doubt.
So the police may ultimately feel that there is not enough to satisfy that standard and to press charges, but the person may still be able to be successful in a civil matter where it's a lower standard. But in many situations, the police do get involved, and we give the police the opportunity to do an investigation, and depending on the result of the investigation, we may decide whether to pursue the matter civilly. One more question for you. I've seen this in email several times today.
Are there also situations where you might hear from men who say that women are sexually harassing them? That has been rare. I've been practicing law for over 15 years, and in my first 14 and a half years of practice, I've only seen maybe one of those instances. I've seen three in the last three months.
And those are not common, and usually they revolve around this concept of power and inequality of power, and there's a situation where a woman actually is the one in power and uses that power in a way that makes someone else uncomfortable. I still think those are rare, but it has come up, and I think in many cases, the men that may find themselves in that situation, we find it difficult or perhaps embarrassing to bring it forward because we're so conditioned to think that men should be strong and powerful. A lot may feel more afraid or may feel somewhat embarrassed to say, I was the victim. But that is something that does happen in the workplace to an extent, for sure.
Interesting that you've seen three cases in the last three months and only one in 14 and a half years before that. That, I think, speaks to the energy that this issue is generating right across America. Absolutely. Leo, it's always a pleasure.
Thank you so much for the time. Thank you, my pleasure. Leo Sampiru is a partner at Sampiru to Mark and LLP in Toronto and Vancouver Employment Lawyers and Employment Law Specialist, Leo Sampiru. My name is 800-263-2428.
1-800-263-2428. Are men being unfairly judged by innuendo, or are women finally receiving some justice for the sexual harassment they've suffered in silence? Are men being unfairly judged by innuendo, or are women finally receiving some justice for the sexual harassment and assaults they have suffered in silence? 800-263-2428.
Do you approve of what's happened this week? Do you approve of what has been said about Patrick Brown and what has happened to him? 800-263-2428. Wherever you are in Canada, give me a call.
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