Love is a way forward and with time, forgiveness. And that forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. But I can tell. I'm willing to, like, try and see it from a higher perspective.
I'm in a cage. I cannot afford resentment or judgment because if I'm in a space of resentfulness or judgmentalism, the sunlight of the spirit is blocked and wrapped up in myself again, right back in the middle of my life. Hi, my name is Rangan Chastity. Welcome to Feel Better Live More hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast.
You know, I often talk about the importance of pushing ourselves outside our comfort zone. This is a theme that has come up on many occasions in the past with my guests. And I think this week's episode of the podcast is me pushing myself out of my very own comfort zone. I've long held the belief that we can all learn something about ourselves from every single person we interact with.
And it's actually through the stories of other people that I feel we can learn the most. My guest today has a really powerful story to share. Now, he isn't what you would necessarily call one of my typical guests. He's not someone who would be considered an expert in a particular area of health, nor would he put himself out there as an expert.
Yet I think he has some wonderful life wisdom to share that we can all take something from. He's the incredible singer songwriter Benjamin Francis Lefwitch. Now, I've been a big fan of Ben's work for many years. I've always loved the soulfulness and the raw emotion in his voice.
And Ben actually came to the spotlight in 2011 when his debut album, Last Night before the Snowstorm came out. And one of the tracks from the album Shine was officially Spotify's most addictive song of 2014. It was the track that was repeat played most often that year. His brand new album, his fourth one in Fance, It's a Carry a Whale, has just been released and it's actually the very first album that he has recorded entirely sober.
And this struggle with addiction is actually at the heart of Ben's story. You see, Ben and I begin this conversation by talking about the disconnect between success and happiness. And at the peak of his early fame a decade ago, Ben confesses that contentment still eluded him. He just wasn't happy.
He had success, fame, opportunities, and Ben acknowledges all of this, but he still couldn't shake that feeling of being uncomfortable in his own skin. There was a hole in his heart that he just could not fill. Now In Ben's case, it was drink and drugs that he tried to fill that hole with. But as we discuss, addiction comes in many guises.
And I think to some degree, we're all seeking to fill that hole in our souls and try our best to fix whatever we feel is wrong or missing in our lives. And I think, you know, from time to time, we can all feel a certain emptiness. And whether it's alcohol, sugar, caffeine, gambling, sex, shopping, or whatever else we choose to fill it with, I think very few of us are strangers to that feeling. That, of course, is not to diminish what for Ben has clearly been a long and traumatic journey.
It's a privilege to hear him share so honestly about his experience, what. What he's learned in recovery over the past three years. And there's so much in what Ben does in recovery, one day at a time, that I feel could be helpful to each and every one of us. For example, we discussed the difference between saying sorry and really making amends.
We talk about the importance of connection and community and how those regular meetings that Ben and other recovering addicts used to have in person moved online over the past 12 months and still retain their power. We really do cover so much ground in this conversation. We talk about his music, spirituality, the inherent goodness in people, and his goal of progress, not perfection. And throughout the entire conversation, I was really struck by Ben's gratitudes, his energy, and I was really grateful for his authentic and touching words.
This is a powerful conversation. I really think you're going to enjoy listening. And now my conversation with Benjamin Francis Lethwich. I hope you find what you're looking for so your heart is warm forevermore.
One of the big problems in society these days is that we confuse success and happiness. We kind of think they're the same thing, but it's really clear to me that they are two separate things. You can have them both, but getting one doesn't necessarily mean you're getting the other one. And I think of you in 2011, when your debut album came out, smash hit, right?
Doing really, really well, getting interviews. I heard you refer back to that period, saying that you weren't happy. Successful on one hand, but at the same time, not happy. So how do you see those two things?
Yeah, something I speak about a lot with my friends in studio and with other artists. And I'm aware that I'm saying this from a place of coming from privilege and being comfortable and having had relative commercial success through being signed to date here and the music I've Powered over the years. But my experience is as cheesy as it sounds like. I think success is happiness and true happiness in the soul.
I mean, a feeling of contentment in one's heart. And if I have friends who I won't name, people who've been in very successful bands who've touring the world, sending out shows and taking their own life when they get home. And I can only speak for myself, it's a conversation. I have a lot with young artists I'm lucky enough to work with and learn from.
But really the juice is to try and care for one's own spirit with whatever program or methodology one uses and get it into a place where the spirit can be in the same place where the record sells a million copies or sells one copy, or whether you have a big record deal or a small record deal or no record deal or one record deal. And my experience is that I'm most happy and content when I'm around other human beings talking about stuff that matters to me or sharing common solutions and not when I'm in front of loads of people playing shows and having praise thrown away. That stuff's nice sometimes, but I can't tell you the amount of times I've come off stage at a festival and, you know, been crying about having a feeling of the hole in my heart, you know, that's probably just my own stuff, you know, that I continue to work on. But I agree that, you know, I'm really.
What's the, you know, I'm not millionaire. What's the difference if some, you know, big massive rose, 100 million in the bank or whatever, A billion. What's the difference? Your own plane, more space to walk around in a big lonely house.
Not being able to go anywhere without being photographed. Having what you say taken out of context. Not knowing really what a lover or a friend or boyfriend or girlfriend, however identifies might want from you in a romantic sense, you know, it's like, I don't know, in a sick kind of way, maybe I'm just out of it. I'm kind of pleased.
I never really got like street famous. Yeah. What was it like in 2011? So, first album comes out.
You're doing really well, as you say. You're reflecting back now, what, 10 years on? Yeah, just about 10 years. Yeah.
Incredible. 10 years on. Thanks. Obviously, it's a very formative period in anyone's life.
I think you were. How old were you in the first album? 21. 21.
I mean, 21 to early 30s. It's a very significant Period in anyone's life. And it's interesting how you speak now that there's things where you're getting adulation. Whether the record sells a million or it sells one copy shouldn't really matter.
Did it matter back then? Yeah, yeah, it did, it did. And it was never enough because I remember being a 16, 17 year old kid going to see like Fion Reagan playing like 150 cap folk theater in Yorkshire and thinking like, you know that feeling like young UC band on stage and like a small club and you're like, they've got it, you know what I mean? If I ever get there, I'll be.
I remember being with my first ever girlfriend on the bus going through Manchester and seeing like a tiny poster of an act of Peter Rodrigo who stands at a union at the time to label the nights I love and thinking I'm a self centered in a way and thinking, oh my God, if I saw myself on a poster I'd be so happy. And then sure enough I get there and playing those venues and bigger within six months and I'm like irritable, restless, discontent in my own skin and constantly living in the delusion that she'll fix me or he'll fix me or that will fix me. I'll stick that and that'll fix me or more praise will fix me or the next royalty checker fix me. No.
And it was, it was, it was never my experience, if that makes sense. But it didn't matter because I could be lying if I said it. And I have to remember that when I'm talking to young artists, if they're like posting about themselves on social media or asking me for favors or this and that. Like I have to remember that I was also that guy.
You know, it's important to be hungry and you know, kind of be like, hey, will you manage me? Or send a demo to a label or you know, it's tricky, isn't it? Because you know what they say, youth is wasted on the young. Like there's so much that we know more if we understand more about life as we get older and in some ways kind of wish we knew about Ben, but in some ways I think it's just part of you kind of got to go through it to understand it.
You said something Ben, which really caught my ear. Emmett Goats said it's probably just my own stuff that I'm dealing with. Well, I don't think it is. I think it's universal.
I think pretty much all of us have a hole in our hearts and we seek to fill that hole with whatever we can. And the question is, are we choosing things to fill it that are going to start really filling it for good, or are we filling it with, like, quicksand that we just get a temporary kind of, oh, yeah, that feels better, but then it just seeps right through and that hole becomes even bigger, I think, than it was before? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
And I think the problem is, for me, at least, I can only speak for myself. You know, I got into the habit of filling that hole in my heart of stuff that I was allergic to, you know, and didn't last. And I. I'm still in the business of trying to fill that hole in my heart, but I fill it with not stuff that I try.
And I'm not perfect, I'm only human. But I try and fill it with stuff that isn't going to kill me or harm those around me directly or indirectly, if that makes sense. I mean, I think what we are talking about at the moment is universal. Whether it's you, when you're 21, wanting to sell more records and play bigger gigs, or whether it's someone starting out or in their job who wants a promotion or who wants to earn a bit more so they can get a bigger car or a nicer house or a flashier holiday, it's actually the same underlying drive we think, that's going to make us happy, but it doesn't.
I want to be really clear that I get it if you've got nothing, you know, more money is going to give you food and shelter. I get that. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just simply saying that once we have those basic needs met, the research is pretty clear on this, that more money is not really leading to happiness.
And I think what we can say is that money can often eliminate some of the causes of unhappiness. But I'm not sure money in and of itself gives us happiness. Yeah, I think it's a really common misconception that wanting to be secure or have more or be warm or eat, or wanting to have sex or be in love or grow, have more comfort, security, wealth even. I think it's a misconception that stuff is a sin.
You know, I think they're very human, natural desires that everyone has. And I don't think there's anything wrong with them at all. Again, I can only speak for myself at the point the measure of when those desires, how I would put it, get defective or harmful is when they separate from their intended purpose and I start putting them right in the middle of my life. I put myself right in the middle of my life and they become my entire goal of like I want to get more money, I want to get more famous, I want to get more sex, I want to get more this or that or whatever, you know.
And the, the work I try and do myself is just to stay right size without being cruel to myself. There's nothing wrong with wanting. I want to get you sofa cool. I want to get girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever cool.
I love those things. A sinful or evil orb. I think some people, for whatever reason and I consider myself one of these people, kind of those, I would say kind of God given instincts for whatever reason run, rampage and chaos can follow in my experience. I was reading the press release for your upcoming album which as we record this conversation I think it's out about what are we on Friday?
One week? Yeah, in one week. So we're going to have to get to that because I've heard two of the tracks so far. I can't wait for the albums to come out next Friday and they are sublime, beautiful, they're just so, so good.
But it said the press release that this is the first album that you've written being sober. I want to explore that bit because, well, let's start at the beginning. What were the problems you were facing? Maybe tell us a little bit about that and sort of where it started and where we are now.
I think the main problem I was facing was from very, I'd say from about 23, 24, I really wanted to stop taking drugs and drinking and I couldn't. I made every kind of promise in the world. I went to every therapist, read every self help book, tried new partners, moved to the other side of the world, threw drugs, alcohol into the river, onto the roofs of hotels to try and get rid of it and would quickly be out there kind of picking up again or calling whoever to get my fix. And my problem was really that I was irritable, restless discontent in my own skin unless I had those kind of things in me to fill that hole in my heart.
And it was, you know, I went from a life like a tornado. I wasn't present for people I loved. I was emotionally absent from my own life and the lives of most people I met. And I really, you know, whenever I'd be traveling to new places around the world on tour or whatever, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't be able to function without Certain things.
So I'd say the problem was it was the kind of hole in my soul, you know. And I just kept trying to feel that. I knew that what I was feeling, it was, I was allergic to. But just knowing it wasn't enough to get me to stop until I reached a place of what I would describe as a bottom in which I had nowhere else to kind of turn emotionally other than to ask for help from a kind international fellowship of human beings who shared with me a common solution.
I try and practice one day at a time to, to keep me away from putting that stuff from my system I'm allergic to. And through doing that, haven't found it necessary to take a drink or drug for well over three years. First of all, thank you for sharing that. Congratulations.
Over three years, that's. I mean, that's wonderful. You said allergic. When you say allergic, do you mean medically allergic or do you mean metaphorically allergic?
I mean allergic in the sense that once I start, I can't stop. Once I put one in me, I trigger a craving and I cannot stop until I'm so messed up that I, you know, pass out or whatever. And then I wake up and I can't stay stopped. I forget the kind of suffering and humiliation 12 hours a week or a month or a year ago and I start again.
And so I would describe it as the problem, kind of the problem centers in my mind. And that's where I try and apply, you know, a spiritual solution to build a defense against that first one that will trigger the allergy, you know, and trigger that craving. And you know, I'm not an angel. There are many other things and not drugs or alcohol that people get, you know, sugar, you know what I mean?
We talked about before we turn the camera on, man, if I get a hands on box of wagon wheels, they're not sticking around very long, you know what I'm saying? And that stuff can be deadly for sure. You know, that stuff I have to continue to work on. And I don't believe that drugs or alcohol are inherently evil and that no one should take them.
And I know many people who can have great times using those things and can go out on a weekend and enjoy and, and then go to work on, then put it down and not be obsessing about it. But I'm not that guy, you know, Nor do I think that I have a monopoly on recovery or the solution to alcoholism or drug addiction. Would you mind sharing what sort of drugs you were taking? Alcohol, skunk and prescription pills mixed together and other things as well that weren't my favourites.
Yeah. You spoke about being 23 and I'm interested as to. When do you think this started. I think I've always felt that kind of hole in the soul, sense of separation apart from the world.
Otherness from long before I discovered alcohol and drugs, I think have always been, you know, I remember being nine years old, playing like Halo on the Xbox, not wanting to stop and walk home from school to, like walk home from school and play games or watch horror films or, you know, compulsive eating, that kind of stuff. I think I've always had that ism, that kind of. I self me of alcoholism from as far back as I can remember, really codependent, kind of romantically obsessed. I don't know, I'm not a.
I really care about the solution and trying to live in that. I don't know whether I was born with it or something happened and nor do I want to sit in like a pity party, like kind of pour me, pour me, pour me on the drink mentally, because that's not good for me, you know, and at my instinct, as I was from before, I can consciously remember things. I feel like I had that thing, that feeling of just like, ugh. And a quick way to not have that feeling is to do those things I was describing, you know, it's interesting.
Are you familiar with Gabor Matte's work? Of course, yeah. He's a legend. Yeah.
I mean, I love Gabor and I spoke to him a couple times before on the show and he'll speak again in a couple of months, I think. And you know what? I really. I like his broader definition of addiction because I think society's had this view of addiction.
Drug addicts on the street corner, you know, or the sort of overt alcoholic who can't function in life and, you know, have to sell their house. These kind of the extreme examples. And I think we like to make ourselves feel a bit better that, oh, you know, I'm not one of them. Yeah, that's exactly right.
I'm not an addict. And I know in an interview when I was researching this one, you said we live in an addicted world. And Gabble's definition, I think, has sort of three key components. It's when we crave something and get a reward from it, it's something that we can't give up.
And the third component is where we can't give up in spite of negative consequences. And once you start broadening out of that, I think it's very Hard for many of us to make a case that we all don't have some form of addiction, whether it is shopping, sex education, Instagram, binge watching, whatever it might be, coffee we've chatted about before, as well as heroin and cocaine and whatever. I think what I love about Gabble's approach is something I can Lisa, describe to. It's a much more compassionate approach.
Not why the addiction, why the pain? And yeah, as I think about that and think of you and I, again, I want to be respectful of where you are on your journey and what you want to talk about. You know, it doesn't sound as though you were using drugs at the age of nine, right? You were doing that later in alcohol.
But I'm getting the impression that you sort of felt you were drawn to just chuck yourself into things. Like, would you sort of numb out to computer games? Is that how you describe it? Totally.
You know, to computer games or, you know, like food, obsessing over girls, porn, video games, anything, you know, anything to change, to change the way I felt. And there were consequences at that young age a little bit that was more when I kind of got into the realms of being an adult and was just. If I'd met you like four or five years ago and I'd come to do this, I'd have been, you know, using in your garden and like I'd been looking in your eyes thinking, like, when's he gonna stop talking so I can go and do my own thing. Whether it was you or anyone else, whether it was you or Label Header or an artist or anyone, you know, just very self centered, you know, and that's not because I don't feel like I became, you know, an alcoholic because I drank or used obsessively or excessively.
I think I drank and used obsessively and excessively because I am an alcoholic. And that stuff was a solution to my problem, which is life itself. You know, again, to recovery. I get surrounded by the bottle or by the bag and then I think that, I think that that's my problem when I put it down and I feel worse than I did when I was high.
And I become surrounded by life itself and I try and pick up some suggestions that other human beings have put on my path to try and get out of the way of myself and live a life beyond my wildest dreams, you know, one day at a time. If I put in the work. How did fame at 21 affect us, would you say? Because, like, I don't know, there's a spotlight then that gets put on people certain magnification of pressure.
I'm not convinced anymore that these things then start afresh. I sort of feel, I feel very, very strongly, and I've said this during the last 1250 months as well, where people have to live in very different ways what they used to that whether it's the restrictions or it's fame or it's public exposure, I feel it's stress testing the system. It's putting more pressure in and it exposes pre existing faults. I don't know if you fault in a blame way, but pre existing cracks that were already there, I feel it just turns the gauge up so that you can start to expose those.
I don't know how that sits with you in terms of what happens. Today's episode is sponsored by AG1, a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over seven years now. This is the time of year when our immune systems are under the most pressure. Between spending more time indoors, travel and seasonal bugs, it's natural to look for extra ways to support our immune defenses.
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Plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers. See all [email protected] live. More in answer to your question about how did I find fame and success at 21 of those kinds of arenas and what it brought up for me, I think it made me seem to the outside world very functional and like bar, the people very close to me are romantic partners or tour managers or promoters or the record label were well aware that there were problems and on the receiving end of a lot of kind of Nastiness.
But you know, I was sat after a part of my first ambitious for three years and then finished touring that at the end of 2013 maybe. And for three or four years I was sat in, you know, an expensive flat in the middle of London by myself with a hole in my heart filling up with the stuff I'm allergic to, you know. And I think it was hard, it was maybe hard for my own ego and judgment. That judgment that you were talking about, like, well, I'm not on a parkland homeless drinking bottle of cheap.
Do you know what I mean? I'm not doing this drug or that drug or whatever. The one thing that separated me from starting to live in the solution was my own judgment, you know, I'm not going to go and sit in the church basement, you know, you know that. Very judgmental.
That's exactly where. It's exactly where I needed to be. But answered your question. I think I, I found it weird.
I think in terms of the fail, it's a fail. Like people coming up to me like, oh hey, like I love your stuff, I hope. And I think I was always in that realm, gracious with people, like thank you, I really appreciate that. I really love music and it was wild knocking around with, you know, artists I loved my whole life and becoming friends with people and all that kind of stuff.
I think when someone's young and they suddenly have a relatively big population, deal or record deal or success, no one's trained them to like be responsible with like money or time, all these kind of things. That's what happens with art. You can get this block of an advance or evidence. I think that's kind of difficult.
I think that's why good managers and compassionate, honest, fiscally assiduous managers are important to help guide artists in those realms. But the main thing I think was just that I was like, nothing's wrong with me, I'm killing it, I'm amazing, everyone loves me, blah blah, blah, very outwardly functional. Like I said, sat. Sat in a flat in the middle of London with everyone.
I remember being sat in a flat in my friend Cindy, she worked for Sonia and yeah, she texted me, you song Shine is the most repeat played song in the whole world on Spotify this year and just the whole world. I just went in one year and out there and I said thanks man. Back to doing whatever I was doing, you know, just not present and escaping and totally powerless. It's interesting that, you know the theme of judgment, you know, judging other people for the way they're Sort of dealing with their addictions.
I've got a big single and my nice pads. And yet we can tell ourselves so many stories about our lives. And I can guarantee, Ben, that there will be people, there'll be hundreds of people listening right now who are in the same position. And what you just shared probably was like straight to their heart.
They thought, you know what, that's, that's kind of me. Maybe not with the big album and a big song and that. Do you know what I mean? But their version of that in their life.
Sure. It's there. It's everywhere. Everywhere you look, that stuff is there.
Yeah. And I hope something we talk about saying might be used for and goes without saying. Like if anyone is, you know, people can find me easy, like if they want to chat. But if anyone feels like they're at bottom and wants to like speak about, would be interested in hearing some of my story or the solution, just hit me up.
I've done that plenty of time. Speaking to other people, it might help me more than helps everyone else. So I've been trained in recovery. I keep what I have by giving it away.
I mean, it's incredible. Being of service to others is like the antidote to deep, long introspection and getting too self focused. You know, it's the simplest and I think it's the quickest antidote to getting out of that, you know, do something for somebody else. Yeah.
Just finishing on judgments. I think we're incredibly judgmental. As I say, I have been very judgmental in the past. It's something I actively try and catch myself on.
I do find I'm becoming less and less judgmental by the day. It feels really good. And I realize that at the root of judgment is a feeling of inadequacy. Either when we're judging other people or when we harshly judge ourselves.
We're not good enough, we're inadequate. And I remember at school I grew up in Manchester. Well, I grew up in Southampton, Cheshire. Once a school in Manchester Secondary School.
Big, you know, academically, very driven school. Big football culture in Manchester. So who you support is a big part of your identity at school. And everyone loved football or seemingly was into football.
It's quite the same thing. What was interesting is how judgmental we were, and I probably was of young footballers who were caught doing all kinds of stuff in nightclubs when they were 18, 19, and slaps on the front page of the sun or the Mirror, basically just destroying these people. And then if you think about it, you think, I don't Know if you've left school or you're at 16, you wouldn't like be training all the time. You suddenly are getting 30 grand a week.
I kind of. I kind of challenge many people not to make any mistakes. What is your relationship means to judgment? What you say, I agree with what you're saying.
It comes from a place for me, I can only speak for myself up from a place of my own low self esteem or feelings of inadequacy. The one thing that separated me from getting clean and sober for a long time was my own judgment. Exactly like you talked about 15 minutes ago. I'm not that bad.
I'm not that bad. Those young footballers you talking about, they've got cameras on them all the time. How many of us human beings can truly say that we've lived, that we've been spiritually fit 24 hours a day? I don't know anyone.
I don't even know spiritual leaders or religion. When that story about the monk came out, he's like flying around private jets, smoking blunts and jets, you know what I mean? Wild and like, you know, a phrase I really love is but for the grace of God, there go. I use the word go with a small G.
But like, that's me, you know, the seconds and inches, you know, like causing chaos and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I think a lot of young kids, man, they had cameras on them all the time filming. And then they had that one inappropriate job, they made that one stupid decision, they made that one awful thing that they'd done, filmed, written in bold capitals and slapped on the front of the sun and everyone would be under the bus. You know, that's not to excuse anyone's harmful behaviors, my own included.
But I think like, love is a way forward and with time, forgiveness, that forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. But like, I know in my life and like, I want to name for people, like family stuff, I feel like people have done like serious harm to me in the same way that I have to other people. And like, until I'm willing to like see it, try and see it from a higher perspective, I'm just in a cage, you know, that's a big thing. And, you know, for people in recovery, I cannot afford resentments or judgment because if I'm in a space of resentfulness or judgmentalism, the sunlight of the spirit is blocked and I'm wrapped up in myself again, right back in the middle of my life.
And I've got 15 years of field research that tells Me that my self reliance and my. Me running purely on my own power leads me to the doors of treatments and feeling suicidal, having burned down my life. You know, my self reliance has failed me in that respect. And I need to quit playing God, you know what I mean?
Let's talk about recovery because you know, as you say, you're over three years clean and you know, there's real authenticity speaking to you, which I love and I've got to be honest, I find quite rare these days. You know, you come to my house, we've had a drink, have water, sparkling water to be clear and you know, hot drink as well. And we've been chatting. I have been struck by, by your humility, your gratitude, your authenticity.
I really have. It's been a really lovely energy to be around. Thanks. Thank you.
And you know, it's not something that was there pre recovery or do you feel that it's something that recovery has given you? I don't believe that anyone is born like sinful or evil or defective or nasty. I think that would probably, you know, I believe that deep down in every, you know, man, woman, child or however anyone chooses to identify that as that's the fundamental idea of good or God or spirit. So I think it's funny, I met a few artists recently, I'm writing with himself.
Maybe back in the day at 10 years ago festival, you would really sat with me when people occasionally. I'm not saying that it's amazing if they don't, but like I'm kind of shocked when I hear that sometimes. You saw nice. It's definitely a practice that recovery has given me and recovery has given me the ability to be honest and have integrity.
And I don't get all those things perfect all the time. But I didn't get those things by stopping drinking and using. You know, like when I stop drinking and using, I'm in trouble. And I got those things by picking up the solution and you know, the process of clearing the channel between me and whatever that thing is that's been there the whole time that I was standing in the way of.
I don't know if that answers your question. Quite. No, no, it's. Yeah, it doesn't.
It's fascinating because all that goodness is there within all of us and somewhere along the line we go off track. And actually a lot of what we're trying to do when we're trying to find ourselves is just kind of return back to who we already were. Patient, wise. I've been involved with lots of people who've Been struggling with our seductions.
I know people really well, some good friends who have had very public battles with addiction. You know Rich Roll, a good friend of mine, fellow podcast host, he's been on the show three times and we've spoken about his journey with alcohol and he's a legend. He is, yeah, he's amazing. And what's really interesting is I find Russell Ratten on the show.
I hope to in the next few months. But I'm struck as someone who has never been down that path. Now I'm very clear this one of me, I've not had addictions, I absolutely have. But as someone who's I guess not hit that rock bottom anyway in terms of, let's say alcohol or drugs and has then had to go into a formal process of recovery, what I'm struck by is when I talk to people like you, or Rich, rather, I see Russell Bratton speak.
What I often see are people who really get life who by going so extreme in one direction, they seem to have more of a realisation of what truly makes us tick and makes us happy than people who've never been to that extreme who just sort of slightly off the edges what goes on there that gives people these really great principles to apply in their daily life. Because I actually think we could all probably learn from them. Yeah. You know, I'm no expert on recovery or those beautiful 12 suggestions, but I think this is the thread that connects those three.
You know, me and those guys who talk about who I love and many people in recovery, of course love is like with all. I can only speak for myself. I imagine that they might say similar things. We've all been at the point of surrender and accepting that by myself I am powerless over this thing that I'm allergic to and that my self reliance and self will has failed me and I need, I desperately need a new management and I make that.
And by new management, I don't care. Just to be clear. Sorry, Mark, happy with your manager shout out to market day here, you know, and. But just knowing that I need it isn't enough.
I then have to make that contract saying, you know, making a decision to turn my, you know, my thoughts and actions, my life over that place and then, and then. But just doing that isn't enough. You know, I could say like if I said, oh, you know, God, I'd really love to sip a coffee around, you know, if you did. But coffee a cup here is like magically come up and come to my hand, you know, I need to do the work to like, to clear that channel and gain.
Accessing that believe has always been there. And some of that work is, you know, you use the word, you know, you used a few like kind of spiritual terms. And getting honest with myself and another person, making amends that to people I've harmed, not saying sorry. I've said sorry a million times.
I'm sorry, man, you know, amends. And then what's the difference? To me, it's only my experience about the difference is asking for someone's forgiveness and being accountable and naming what I've done. The difference between like, hey, X and Y.
I'm sorry for that time I was X and Y to, you know, or hey, man, can't have your time, you know, I deeply regret. I'll treat you back then. I know it was mean and nasty, controlling, judgmental, you know, by the grace of God, it's not behaviour, I repeat. And I am, you know, trying to live in a way which is less destructive.
And I hope you can forgive me and I deeply apologize. When you do that, when you take the time to make amends like that, how much of the teaching or how much of what you try and apply is I need to do that and not be attached to the outcome of that. And so the reason this is so important to me is I feel a lot of time we give our power away to other people and we become prisoners because we, our wellbeing is dependent on what other people do around us, how they interact with us, what they say, when we say something to them. And I think it's very human and I understand that.
But I know in my own life, this peace and contentment that I feel these days comes from a real detachment from the outcome of what I do. Like, if I was to say that to someone and they're not ready to hear it, I've still got to be satisfied and go, you know what? That's cool. Like, yeah, absolutely.
Have you look at that. That situation you're describing does happen regularly with me and some of the guys I'm looking after work with. I've done my part, you know, I'm not God and it'd be wrong with me to kind of force those things on someone else. And sometimes, you know, I might reach out and it's very clear that someone doesn't want to hear from me.
You know, I need to respect that and not ruin an opportunity to maybe be useful later on. But I'd say, and people are well within the right, you know, to not want to speak or not to talk that's absolutely fine. But my experience has been that 95% of the time, I'm amazed how willing people are to hear something like that, or even amazing, like Ben 15, you know, like, you know. But I need to be careful as well not to go in and try and seek praise and adulation for, like, you know, going sitting down with someone and being like, I'm enlightened, you know, you know, a couple of things there.
One is that I've gone through nerves at times before you coming up. Right. Because it's not really nerves, but just like an apprehension sometimes. Thinking, this is a help podcast, right.
I want to help inspire people to live better lives. And it started off I would talk to experts in their field, and I branched out loads of times. But I want to branch out more and more because I feel what I want to do is take health outside the health space. Like, I think health is life, health is.
Health is everything. We take our health with us in every interaction that we do. And I feel that we learn through stories and we learn through other people. Every single human being has got a story that we can learn something from.
Not only am I incredibly inspired by you as an artist and a songwriter, but there's always something about your warmth when you, I think, first messaged me on Instagram a couple of years ago that I've really. I liked that energy and what you said there about trying to make amends rather than saying sorry. I think I'm also trying to think how this is relevant to someone who doesn't feel they're an addict. But I really see a parallel in relationships where, you know, let's say, I don't know, two partners, husband, wife, whatever, where there's a bit of friction.
You're trying to make an apology, but if the apology doesn't go down the way you want it to, oh, it's not worth trying. You know, it's so common, these little traps people fall into. I have fallen into them in the past. But when you can kind of break free from that.
And I think that it's those words, honesty and integrity. Because when you're writing with honesty and integrity, it actually doesn't matter what the outcome of that is. Astonishment, you know, what does honesty, integrity mean to you? Feeling like I've done my part without trying to manipulate or control the outcome.
And that has come from a place of true surrender and, like, accountability. That's the best I can do. I'm not in songs or my language. I don't speak.
I find it hard to Like, I don't know what definitions of those words. I don't have the fear of my system. You know, it'd be like, I don't know what's a good example. And Manda, I know angel, you know, progress, not perfection.
I'm not saying I'm trying to grow along, you know, lines that might be useful to me and other people, but I'll give you an example. I've shared about this in meetings. Being that, and this is something, you know, I'm not just getting sober doesn't mean that I'm switched on. You know, I need to follow those things and, you know, pick up those tools when it's time.
Being backstage at a festival and going up to an artist that I'm not. I don't hate them. I'm not obsessed with them. Being like, man, like, I love the music.
Do you know what I mean? Like, that kind of. That subtle dishonesty of being a soiree. And you're not London, you know, you're at solo house or Ned and he's like, yo, Rank wrongdon.
It's like, yo, like, you know, famous people and presenters and, you know, someone, like, they've got money or whatever, you know what I mean? That kind of stuff. And being like, hey, you know, like, when I get home, I have those things. I feel icky being dishonest if I come up to someone and be like, man, I love your new record, you know, and it's like, it's lots of.
I do as much anymore, but I'm capable of that stuff without checking myself. You know what I mean? Like, kind of. You know what I'm saying?
I think you just gave the best example ever. For me, it's. It's something I think I've done in the past. And the thing is, you can't hide from yourself.
Yeah. Yeah. Literally. That's the truth about it.
You can do that stuff and it can seem okay, but yeah, when you're sitting alone, you know that you've done something that's not in alignment with who you are. Yeah, totally. And I think when I think of honesty, I think of, you know, this kind of radical honesty with yourself. It's that honesty with yourself.
You're like, you know what? If you've got weaknesses trying to work on, don't try and kid yourself as much as possible. You don't have them. Accept them, acknowledge who you are, but then also try and show up in the world as a respectful, humble human being.
But by showing up in the world so way doesn't mean you sort all that stuff out. This is something I've been wrestling with over the last few months. As I, and I was telling you before, I've just met the first draft of my next book. I mean, this is the most raw, personal and I think it's most honest and I think it's the best book I've ever written.
Like, I can't wait for this to come out. Amazing. Because I think it really is my passion for it. What I've been wanting to say for years, but maybe didn't feel comfortable enough in my own skin.
Still try and be the doctor, you know, what should a doctor sound like? Do you know what I mean? And it's a term that I've been thinking about and been writing about and I bring it up because I kind of feel something you said, even when you're mentoring artists or the example you shared about this kind of fake praises, hey, man, I really love your work. Even though you don't, you don't need to say that.
You could say, hey, how's it going? Do you know what I mean? Exactly. And performative authenticity.
We think about the word authenticity. I've been thinking about this whole concept, particularly around social media. I think there is a performative authenticity. Sometimes on social media it's so hip and cool to be authentic that I think we have totally misrepresented the word.
So I think people doing this without even realising it, it's sort of minimising sometimes privilege, sort of over exaggerating, sort of insecurities and weaknesses. And I chat to my wife about this last week when I was just finishing off it was trying to chew over a few ideas and we were basically just saying that. Or the conclusion was, I actually think it's very, very hard to be authentic on social media. I think the platform, it celebrates inauthenticity, but I really feel that.
But the danger is that you start to change that photo a little bit, you look a little bit better. Right? This is quite an extreme example because we all do that to a certain degree. But once you start doing that or you start to tell a vulnerable story, that's not really the trooper, you know, it's what the platform wants and you see this everywhere.
Then the problem is that you get love and validation for a person who you're not and therefore you're incentivized to keep portraying that person online. But meanwhile, inside there's a little shell of a person. And I was chatting to someone yesterday about this who literally high profile, influencer opening up won't say who is they're saying in my life online, I know it looks a longer whale of sign, but my life is broken. Yeah.
And you think how many of us are looking at people like that? And I'm fully articulating my thoughts on that. But I don't want you to say something that I can only speak for myself, but I think living and living and dare I say, even monetizing, a dishonest representation of oneself, which I've done before, will slowly eat your soul. Like say you're nowhere even when you get home, even if you get home in a million pound bed and 100 million dollar mansion, you're lying in bed and there's nowhere to hide.
Inside, there's that voice inside going, you're really pulling up. You know, you can't escape it. You can't escape that spirit. You know, it's just like I'm here and I love you, but what are you doing, Ben?
Do you know what I mean? I'd be like, yeah, it's like editing pics and stuff. Me and everyone does it. But it's, you know, there's a lot sick people, me included, you know, like just kind of.
Yeah, yeah, I hope that kind of stuff, I feel like it's starting to get into its death role and I'm lucky enough to work with like young, you know, 19, 20 year old arts who are right at the front of that social media, very credible, extremely gifted, kind young humans and they're so inspiring to be around, man, they're like so on top of this stuff and aware of it. They're almost like post cancel culture, do you know what I mean? Like post self obsession or something, you know, like they're so. This was not the way 10 years ago.
They're so fresh and hardworking and kind and compassionate and gifted and yes, you know, artistic communities are generally all kind of like, you know, left leaning. But they don't get into the hatred and the judgment that so many people can get into, which for me, when I'm in a place of judgment, I'm on that throne. It's like, it's a cold seat for someone like yourself whose debut album blew up. Okay, you're five days off, you're seven days off the release.
Your fifth album. I think it's fourth, fourth and like three EPs. Okay, so fourth album. Yeah.
Let's compare and contrast. Ben, 10 years ago, one week before last note, before the snowstorm comes out. Ben today, one week before Carrie Whale comes out. What is the difference you fundamentally seem to have changed so many aspects of who you are and how you show up in the world.
So how, how does that relate to such a big moment or a significant moment? I should say. I think the first thing comes to mind is that I'm more awake this time. Ten years ago I was probably backstage at a festival, drunk or on drugs and not awake, not really bothered.
A big difference I feel is like I'm more in love with songs. I've always loved songs and been in love with it and kind of been addicted to music in a way. But I feel way more in love with like songwriting more here if I remember being like Montalais clean. So I've been like, oh my God, I'll never be able to write a song again.
But my experience has been that I've. I feel like I become a better songwriter, a better listener, more empathetic around artists, more grateful to learn from them even if they're at the start of their journey. I'm just, I sound as more awake. What's funny was I think all arts are related to that's funny album.
Everyone else is new, but to me it's like a year old, you know, it's like I'm already ranked for the next one. I've already got a Dropbox fold of songs and bouncing with my manager and I'm grateful for putting out the world and I know it's part of the game of the music industry and I'm really proud of it. And the difference is I was more awake for the creation of this album as well. Me and my producer Get Kickweked Fryer.
We left no stone unturned, you know, like I know other humans worked on the album as well. Too many to mention, but they're incredible and I'm eternally grateful for them. We were really focused. This is one of a ten track album.
It's going to be called To Carry Away. It's going to be about living with this thing that I live with. And it's heavy but it's also, you know, it's kind of like a beautiful thing to be aware of. And we got rid of a lot of like big ish, whatever that means, you know, songs like publishers loves and stuff from the album.
It wasn't true to the message of this. It makes sense in the thematic, in the context of the album, man, you know, you know what capo is on the guitar. We let it do. So like me and Sam get K produced.
We spent literally days recording the same song. And as that another cappa was wrong. We did it all. Recorded the drums, guitar, vocal, move the capo down to four moves up to.
You know we were like to suit your voice or to suit the tonality of the song. Mainly to suit my voice which really is like the feeling of the song. And that 10 years ago was something that my reaction to Sam and myself suggesting we got this wrong. Let's go again would have been banana.
I rather outside children, you know that extra. That weakness and kind of respect and love for the music and to get it just right. Because I told myself this myth as a young artist which is like songs just land in your lap. It's all gone now, it's all chill, blah blah blah.
We sat around on bed right. And so on. Once or twice I've had songs like that. At the most part it's like I realized that recently I started to love the craft part of it as well.
Sitting with the verse and going let's change the chord in the verse like one is it but or is it cos you know what I mean the little twists and turns. Then when you listen to whole piece it's like oh it makes a difference. You know what I mean? You know the difference.
I'm sorry all that, you know like I apologize. You know it's a different thing. Her willingness to like stare it down and like and listen to other artists and not think that just because I told for longer have had more success or less success or someone whatever that man. Honestly I learn more from like 16 year old kids who just being signed home lucky enough to write with and learn from than I do with megastars.
They don't know it's all feel. Yeah. It's all that thing we were talking about in the context of recovery of that thing deep down in every man, woman, childhood hope everyone identifies as a fundamental idea juice. You know for some people that come out of the songs or creating an equation or being an amazing single parent or being a teacher or a doctor, scientist, whatever cleaner.
You know the thing where it's like oh my God, I love to sit with you and having a coffee before we get to whatever we're going to do. Yeah. There's a certain freshness isn't there when people haven't been I guess jaded by the industry and not got stuck into a rut doing things which we can do. It must be lovely to.
Well imagine working with 16 year olds is helpful for you as a songwriter. Quite imagine. It's really helpful as a human being as well. Yeah.
It's cool. It's, like, fresh. And, like, often their parents come with them to studio, which is awesome. And it's nice to meet people.
And I have much to learn, man, I'm not. Oh, my God. Can you. Over Tinker.
So you've got a song, and it's pretty good. And you moving around with the capo to get the right tone in your voice, to get the message right, do you? I guess I'm asking because I struggle when I'm writing. So what point is it?
Okay, we're done. And I'll tell you. For me, deadlines have been critical because I go, okay, the book's going to print now. This is the best I can do at this time.
What I say to, you know, suits a lot of younger authors who sort of hit me up for advice. And I actually want to rethink this. I don't know if I've told the story on the show before, but I remember when Bono was interviewed after. It's the Pop Mart.
I can't remember what it's called now. The Pop Mart album, sort of, you know, in the early 90s, and it was only a year after it came out, and he was interviewed about it and he said, listen, the album wasn't ready, but the tour had already sold out. We had the world tour, but the album just had to go out. And had we released it a year later, it would be a completely different album because all of those songs evolved on tour and they actually properly formed on tour, but we just had to put it out.
And I always thought about. I used to be. I still am, but I used to obsess about music. I get albums, we listen all the time, be reading CD booklets, Q magazine, the works.
And I found that really helpful because I thought, okay, this is art. Just because you've sent the book off to print doesn't mean your thought process stops. It still continues. The minute after you send that email, it goes, it's still working.
But if I didn't have a deadline, I think I could work on a book for five years. And so for me, I found these deadlines really, really helpful just to get that balance where it's good enough, because you can. How do you feel about. You can always change a songwriter.
You can always add something or take something out or play. Yeah, I think, yes. In answer to your question, yes, one cone of a tinker. It often happens that, you know, the day one, you know, I worked with a wonderful one.
NA's amazing, very seasoned producer. A lot of the Time and his day one. If we work with an artist, what he sends at the end of the day, 8pm, it's always amazing. And then if he plays with it more, sometimes it's not good.
You know when it's just feel and it's just like, yeah, I'm just trusting, maintaining things here and bouncing on this sonic or bouncing on the track, it's beautiful. So I think you know, the tinker, I mean you can always. I feel like the artist thing is that you're never really 100%. At least I'm never really 100% content with something.
But my general rule is like especially being awake. Do I really feel like this is as good as it could be? You know, do I feel like I've sung it in a surrendered fashion? Do I think the sounds are as good?
Do I think the tempo is right? Do I think the key is right? Do I. One thing I like I say about this is that if someone sings in front of me, I'm like, I believe you.
You know what I mean? I believe that's amazing. I totally believe you. You can see if you tell them TB and you see someone singing a song or doing dance, whatever, you can tell if you, even if someone's not got amazing voices, if they sing it like their life depends on it, they believe in it.
It's like I'm in. Plenty of people don't have to make it. I felt admit plenty of people don't think I have amazing voices, but they know how to use it and have it come from here as opposed to here. Yeah, Authenticity, right.
It's what we connect to. It's. It's one of the reasons I feel that long form podcasting is doing so well all over the globe. In a culture where people say no one's got time, the evidence suggests otherwise.
You've got Joe Rogan putting three hour plus podcasts out, biggest show in the world. Tim Ferriss, Rich Roll. This podcast doing very well with long form. And I think something you touched on there, it's that over a two hour conversation, you can't fake it.
Right? You can fake it and on a three minute light telly interview, you can fake it. You can say the right things, you can give the sound bites 90 minutes, 2 hours, people will see right through it. So I feel like I said, well, I think one form conversation is one way to change the world.
I really do. I think it's the modern day campfire. Helpful. That's great.
Yeah, modern day campfire where we can really just have These human conversations. But I think what you're speaking to areas authenticity, it's not necessarily the person with the best voice. It's the one who can connect the most. And that speaks to what you were talking about.
I think in recovery, you talk about other people being in service. And one quote I wrote down yourself was, you said before that a dangerous place for you to be is when you think you can do everything by yourself. Yeah, yeah, I do. I think my mind is a dangerous and able to hang out by myself.
You know what I mean? I can get so caught in self and wrapped up in self. And again, my experience shows me that 15 years of running on self and thinking, ben, I got this, and put myself right in the middle of my life, being all wrapped up in myself ended up in just continual heartbreak for me, for me and those people around me, you know, and as much as I'm always free of that now, but it's, you know, I'm human, but it's less. It's less.
I'm not trying to manipulate and control and run the show myself, you know, I mean, I'm no longer playing the director, casting everyone around and saying, go here, go here, go here. You know, I'm just like, what will be, will be. It's not gonna be on my time, but that's okay. You know, given that you've been sober for three years now and given how important being around with, connecting with other people is, have the last 15 months of these distancing restrictions, how have they been for you?
And has it made recovery even more challenging? That's a great question. I think I'm aware that through my own privilege and luck and success in music that I've felt the nipper less than most of the world did. I was able to be in a place of comfort in my home, and for that, I'm grateful and privileged.
It wasn't as challenging as I thought it would be. The community moved on to Zoom. The community of kind human beings who shared their common solution with me one day at a time, who I help occasionally, all moved onto Zoom. And I've seen, I know people personally, people I've been texting on the train play who hit their rock bottom in the pandemic and got sober on Zoom by being broken enough to follow suggestions.
And also, you know, it can be nerve wracking for someone to walk into a, you know, a church basement or a community hall or whatever the place might be, you know, on Zoom. Yeah, everyone's got different opinions. I'm no expert on recovery, on music or health or medicine or anything. But I've seen people come in and get sober on zoo broken enough to like let go of their own ideas and follow suggestions.
And some of those people are my closest friends. I was texting a friend of mine in Nashville before I came on here. And I'm looking forward when stuff goes back face to face, you know, but we. The recovery road that I'm on is very democratic and stuff is done by group conscience and vote and nothing.
There's no leader or no Jews to pay or fees to pay or there's no like God, you know what I mean? Like there's no by God. I mean there's no like figure. Who's that?
I am the boss of this place. You know, it's all there, everyone's got a voice and we constantly speak about when it's right inappropriate to go back into in person gatherings and you know, and some of the stuff, you know, few in person things have started to open and the kindness I see is incredible. You know, obviously when it's a lot of time in London, I don't know whether government restrictions are stuff like that. Only 15 people can be in a room.
Well, what happens if 15 people who have got 20 years been sober go to a room to meet to engage in recovery and a newcomer who's drunk comes outside the meeting and they can get turned away and that will never happen, you know, because I've seen old times being meetings and the newcomer comes as there's not space for the old timer walks. I go, you take my seat, you get more important here. That's incredible. Do you know what I mean?
So this stuff to discuss with like when we go in person or not, but I'm no expert in answer to your question. I've actually gone started going to spending more time in and around. I already spent a lot of time there. But I can go up every day, 24 hours of air if you go if I wanted.
You know, it's incredible and zoom, you know. Yeah, I can get stuff done. I miss the kind of smell of coffee and you know, like the kind of romance of meeting spaces. But you know, we're trying to follow rules and not play gone anymore and not do exactly what we wanted to do, you know, for me at least, which is do exactly what I wanted to do if it harmed, regardless if it harmed other people.
And you know, people in recovery work, you know, working an honest path. Hopefully they're out of the business of putting themselves in the middle of their own Lives. It sounds like a key skill that one learns in recovery is compromise. Is that fair to say?
I've not heard that word before in that context, but I think for me at least, the key skill is accepting that I'm always right, my idea isn't always the best, and that a group of recovering alcoholics and addicts together is a powerful, powerful force. I went to doctors and therapists and scientists and all people I look up to and respect, as does everyone in the recovery community. God given, important, gifted, selfless people. But no, I don't think.
I don't know about compromise, but I think just knowing that us together is more important than me getting my own way. So if the group or if a collection of humans in recovery think we're going to not go in person for a while, I want to go in person and I've compromised my direction. Okay. You know, 10 of us in this room, eight of us said, let's chill on a zoom for a bit, and two of us wanted to go in.
Let's hear the minority voice because it's important, it's right to do so. But this is what we're going to do. I'm out of the business of putting my hands on the wheel and, you know, driving my car and just side the mountain. This is what I was getting at before.
I think these lessons that I hear from people who have been in recovery, there just seems to be these universal lessons that we could all benefit from. You when you said there I'd learn that I'm not always right. And if someone else has got their opinion or whatever than me, I don't know that there's a single human being out there who couldn't deal with hearing that, be reminded of that, myself included. Do you know what I mean?
I really feel something about when the pain's so bad, people learn the real truths of the life. And I've heard some people who are in recovery say it was the best thing that ever happened to them and they learned so much from it and they wouldn't have it any other way, which is really powerful. When you hear that with that. Do you agree with that?
Yeah, well, people use, like, say are great people think someone does really antagonizing people are not like, you'll hear like, you know, I'm a grateful alcoholic, I'm a grateful addict of those kind of sayings a lot. And, you know, I needed every. I needed the harms I caused and the harms I did to myself and every drink I ever had to get to that point kind of in my case, every drug is love to get to that point of surrender. It's like my self reliance is failing me here.
I will fail to manage my own life. I cannot stop when I want to. I cannot stay stopped once I'm stopped, once I start, I have little control over the amount I take. And I'm failing as I'm failing at playing God and being the director of the show.