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Good evening, this is your host Buffy Williams and you're listening to the New Heights educational group, The New Heights Show on Education. And tonight's topic is classroom sizes in K through 12. Does it work or does it even matter? A recap on last week's show, we took a look into the different forms of media used in the classroom learning environment.
On tonight's episode, we're going to talk a little about the classroom size and the topic has been a hot button issue for a number of years now. So join us in the discussion and call us at 917-948-7542 or drop your comments in the chat or tag us on social media using the hashtag NHEG or as always post your comments on Twitter at Buffy underscore awaken or on speaker, Instagram or YouTube. Remember my fellow New Heights host Erica Hanson show airs on Thursdays at 2 o'clock p.m. Mountain Standard Time, 1 o'clock p.m.
Pacific Standard Time and 4 o'clock Eastern Standard Time. On this week's episode, I know that last week I told you we were going to be doing the issue four of the easy tunes comic book. But in light of COVID-19 and thinking about how classrooms will be structured as we go into the fall of next year, I thought that we would talk a little about classroom sizes. And this issue of classroom sizes has been up for debate as to whether or not it's been effective.
And so our source for tonight's show is the Education Research Center Education Week and the Department of Education. And when we're looking at classroom settings and classroom size limits, there are a number of factors that researchers have found that are instrumental in whether or not classroom sizes matter. I know that we have myths, but then there are always the realities after the researchers do the research as to whether our myths are actually true. So let's talk a little bit about that tonight.
One of the things is that teachers on average have in the US about 25 students per classroom. And so one of the other things that researchers have noticed is that the classroom size reduction generally does not make a difference in academics of a student after they are in high school. But it does make a difference if the students are in the lower grades. And so what they're looking at there is that there's this continual reoccurrence of this issue of classroom sizes and reduction of sizes and what kind of implementation and strategy should be used within the classroom.
But more importantly, teachers are at the forefront of this. So teachers are looking at instructional time and how much time they can actually spend with each student. And we know that all those things are factors. And policymakers and researchers have been exploring this issue and the reduction of classroom sizes and looking at what methods they favor over other methods.
And so in looking at the restructuring and the formatting, one of the things that they have considered is actually co-teaching, which allows two teachers to be in the classroom, which of course gives the students more opportunity and more access to teachers, but also the research shows that just because there are two teachers in the classroom doesn't necessarily mean that the students will actually retain more or learn more or even get more attention. So another way that they have looked at mitigating the classroom sizes is distance learning adding to the instructional time for the students. And so that's another factor. And schools have been challenged with this and I think it was around 2000, we had the no child left behind 2000 and 2001.
And as a result of that, the federal government issued a lot of block grants and the estimated value of that was $2.85 billion for block grants for school districts to hire more teachers. But in that mass effort to take advantage of those block grants and to actually place more teachers in the classroom for the students, one of the issues that they found was that once they received a block grant, they didn't actually have the classroom size or the structure in the school to be able to actually lower the classroom sizes. So then they found that they had facility issues. And they also were in such a mass rush to hire teachers that they hired a lot of teachers that were not highly qualified or not certified within that particular area.
So just because the school districts had the funds, they weren't necessarily able to implement the program in the most effective way because a lot of the schools had to add actual portable schools on the children's playgrounds in order to add additional classroom space. And they were even using broom clauses that were a large size to actually try to expand the classroom sizes or classroom locations for the schools. And so those are some of the issues that school districts have faced throughout the years. But in 2008, the classroom size did kind of trickle down from the average of 25 to from 17 to about 15 during that mass push of the block grant.
So it was a reduction of maybe two to three per classroom. But another thing is that you have to look at how is your school district actually counting that ratio. And so if they're saying that they have a particular classroom size, then are they factoring that by the average number of students at the school divided by the number of teachers that they have, or are they actually just doing it on average? So you have to look at everything in the statistics because it could be skewed data because they also factor in on teachers that have special education classes which are naturally lower in number, but they're not necessarily teaching to other students in the school.
And so in that way, you may have a false sense that you have a larger number of teachers in a particular school teaching a smaller number of students, but in actuality, there's still a large number of teachers that have larger classroom sizes and very few with special education classes who actually have fewer students. And so those estimates did come from the Department of Education. So if you want to look at those statistics up, that is out there for you as well. And so also to try to mitigate this, the federal government instituted a few things or states issued a few statutes that actually kind of impacted the school districts in a different way.
And so they mandated that there was a restriction on classroom sizes in the general education classrooms of the earlier grades. And so that would be like pre-K through third grade, but they weren't necessarily in the higher grades up. And so again, we're talking about whether or not the myths and the realities of reducing class sizes actually makes sense. If it's going to improve academic achievement for our students, and if they're going to glean anything from that, and there can be a number of different factors here.
And so we can say there's an issue and we need to try to create a solution, but if researchers have already done the research and they say that it's not going to increase the actual performance of the student, then maybe we need to look at something else as far as the structure of classroom sizes. And so one of the things that the researchers had noted, which I thought was very interesting, and I think that this also gained some traction around 2008, is that they considered extending the length of the school day. And so they thought that that may actually increase the academics performance of the students versus actually having smaller class sizes, which really didn't show a significant change in student improvement. And so that's one of the other things that we needed to consider.
And so in looking at reducing the classroom size, one of the things that the research noted is that when you did reduce the classroom size in the earlier grades that minorities and immigrants tend to perform better in those grade levels, but then they were looking at class sizes in that particular study of 13 students per class versus 17 students per class. And then after they reached fourth or fifth grade, they went to standard school sizes, standard size for the classrooms, and they noticed that there was an increase in those particular students in that particular study in that group. And so the outcome of those academics may or may not increase based on the student's actual initial interaction within the school system. And so the best way, I think that this is one of the other pushes for pre-K, having pre-K programs and then having actually smaller class sizes to increase the performance of, as we talked about many times before the higher education act, and implementing those programs, because they knew or they assumed at that point, because I don't think all the research had been done.
But some of the earlier studies said that the early exposure kind of created a discipline. And so once you've done that, even though you reduced the class sizes, once they get to high school, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will be able to catch up from that or change their behaviors. And so we have to look at all the factors that go into whether or not this problem is a problem, or if it's an issue that's something that we can solve. And so we know that it doesn't automatically change the teaching practices of the teacher either.
So those are other factors that we have to actually keep into play, because you have multiple variables that will affect whether or not a student's performance is going to be on par. And so you look at whether or not schools were forced to hire teachers who were not qualified or underqualified, or teachers who were unprepared to actually deal with the particular Google students that they were dealing with. And also another factor is that if you have a classroom size, as they have 25 students and you're an English teacher, and they're actually preparing research versus a math teacher, let's say, or a teacher that does not have as in-depth grading systems versus someone who's teaching art, those core areas are going to be, of course, heavier, and course material usually than, let's say, art class. And so with that, just because you reduced the class size does not mean that the teacher actually still has time to do all the things that they need to do within the classroom in order to make that a productive and nurturing environment for that student and actually give that student the time that they need in order to increase their instructional time with that student one-on-one.
And so in Japan, they found that, let's say Japan and Korea, they found that the class sizes average 33 students to 36 students per class, and the academics were still on a higher level than they are in the US with only 25 students per class. But the difference there is that they have an extended school day. And so this particular study that was done actually focused on the fact that if you extend the school day, that students will still benefit more. And so today, we are discussing classroom sizes in the K through 12 education.
Does it matter? Does it work? And so we're going to take a short break and we'll come back and discuss it further. Join us after the break.
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This is your host Buffy Williams and you're listening to the New Heights Educational Group, the New Heights Show on Education. And tonight's topic is classroom size and K to 12. Does it work? Does it matter?
And we were discussing before the break the effects of students attending smaller classroom sizes at an earlier age and whether the classroom reduction size matters. And we've also talked about some of the realities in the myths of classroom reduction sizes and considering these factors and choosing or evaluating schools and their performance as to whether or not the effectiveness of the teaching style works. Because we know that we have to look at quality learning of the teachers. We have to look at the school leadership, also looking at the school size and the amount of parental involvement.
So all of these factors are extremely important as we look at whether or not school sizes or classroom sizes are going to be the proper solution so that students can have a greater educational experience or more enriching educational experience, I should say. I know a lot of parents have opted to start homeschooling their children and distance education is on the rise. And I wanted to talk about this in relation to COVID-19 and going into the fall because I guess as a parent but not having someone in the K through 12 area right now, I would be wondering as a parent if there is a reduction in classroom size, if we're still going to be social distancing, if my actual school will be able to accommodate that and if not, what does the school year look like for my child in the coming fall? And so I would think that some of my listeners would also be having some of those same questions that they will be asking themselves as well.
So we're looking at what has federal government done, what has the Department of Education done, what has our local and state governments done to kind of assist administrators in providing our students with the best school environment that they can and showing the indicators of, you know, if schools even have the capacity to be able to implement all of these demands that we're putting on them. So we have to also consider, you know, when we're looking at quality education, looking at the framework and everything that goes into it. And so we're looking at the average class size and how do states mandate these class sizes? And we know that we talked about also in the lower grades, generally in pre-K through the third grade, they're going to have smaller classroom sizes.
And then the student-teacher ratio is something I know that I kind of associated with, I don't know about you guys, but I thought that actual student-teacher ratio was kind of like a half-minute teacher you have at school divided by half a minute number of students you had, and then you came up with an equation there. And so student-teacher ratio is really, it's just based on the total number of school instructional staff divided by the total number of students that are enrolled. So I kind of got that one correct, but it actually shows a smaller number than the actual class average size, because remember I said that you also have to factor in if teachers are teaching special classes. And so if you're looking at the flip side of that and looking at, well, how does that factor into the full-time equivalent?
So if a school has a teacher, let's say their part-time, that makes you the number, because if they have four part-time teachers, they only equate to one extra teacher. And so the numbers may look different based on just that one teacher and the ratio and the average and the number of that. And so another thing was that it also does not make a difference in classroom size unless the classroom sizes are lower than 20. And so there are two factors there.
So we're looking at the classroom sizes lower than 20, and then we're also looking at is this classroom in the K through three area or is it above that? Because remember the researchers have noted that if you have a smaller classroom sizes later, but don't have them earlier, that it really doesn't make a big difference in the child's perception of whether or not they're getting the quality education and then actually having the results of academics to back that up. And so the relationship between the class size and the increased achievement of the student sometimes don't directly correlate because there are so many other variables that come into play. So we're looking at the quality of the teacher, the environment of the student's home, the quality of the curriculum and the leadership, and then we're also looking at definitely drawing a conclusion between whether or not this class size alone is the right fit or is going to be the most effective way to implement the school structure.
And so not every school we know, most schools are utilizing every interface that they have and they try to use it in the most effective way possible. And so we need to also think about as we advocate for education, not looking at whether or not the students actually have a smaller classroom size just for the sake of having a classroom size is what the research basically is telling us. So we have a responsibility as parents, we have a responsibility if we're going to be involved in education to try to assist our school districts in the best way possible in trying to increase the academic performance of our students. And so that's going to be an individual basis, going to be on a case by a case basis and a family household that has a sole basis.
So you have to determine for yourself, you know, we are in an age now, where we have enough options that we can look at what's going to be important for my child and most beneficial. And I know that we can have people on both ends of the spectrum that go far to the left or far to the right of that issue and maybe over demanding things in school districts that they can't implement or actually not take advantage of maybe not even taking advantage of some of the access that they do have. And so you have people on or parents, I should say, on all ends of the spectrum. But we have to remember that the habits that our children's form, early in their educational performance is what really is going to affect their academic performance.
And so whether that's good or bad, we have to try to help them cope with the classroom environment and adjust and be more agile as it relates to the things that they may encounter within the school because we know that that's a learning process in itself. And so being able to speak up from themselves and say that they need assistance when they need assistance or take advantage of teacher, what am I trying to say, teacher appointment time and parents being involved. And so it's a broad spectrum approach. And so we have to look at all the factors that are with that.
And so we have veteran teachers out there. I know that we have younger and younger people coming into the educational school system. And it may not be as appealing because of all the myths out there about what education is about. But I just want to encourage anyone who is thinking about going into the field of education that our children are worth it, our country is worth it, our future is worth it to invest the time and the effort that it takes to have quality instruction definitely work on classroom management because that's going to be essential and key to anything because just because you have a lower number of students doesn't necessarily mean that the classroom management is going to be well.
And so having classroom management but I just encourage those out there who are in education and those who are considering going into the field of education that they're going to be challenges and they're going to be dilemmas that we face within the education field but our children are worth the sacrifice of us trying to figure out what's going to be worth best. And we just have a responsibility to bring our best for the time that we're in front of those students and they deserve everything that we can give them in order to make their experience in a rigid one. And understand that a lot of schools are overcrowded and they face issues of trying to find facility to make space for all of these options that we think are good but they do that at a disadvantage to other programs that actually need the space. So the school system now is totally different from when we're in school.
So schools are making room not only for education but they're also making room for. Some schools have child care centers, they have music rooms, they have gyms, they have rentable and portable classrooms and so all of these things make it difficult if we're talking about just the core of education. If a school is already struggling to make space but also trying to offer all those things that they feel a lot of students need in order to be a more well-rounded educated student will then indicate through 12 area. We have to look at the resources that they have been provided and whether or not they can adequately provide that within the facilities that they have and so you know money you know is one of the factors that we know we have to have the funds and so you know advocate you know on your local level it's your school board definitely your state senators write letters do whatever you have to do in order to do what you think is best for your child and so this is an individual effort but we can all work to work on those relationships and hopefully our students will be able to perform better but also remember that teachers have a heavy workload and they do have team teaching at some schools that do have volunteers that come in but education as always as it always has been is a communal effort and so we all have a part to play and so if we just play our part then hopefully the field of education and the future of education is going to be brighter for our children and I also want to mention that my heart still goes out to everyone who is suffering through this COVID-19 time and those who have lost loved ones or those who are suffering through being separated from their loved one maybe because they're a essential worker or their health care worker or maybe their loved one is an assistant living facility and they're not able to actually see their loved ones at the rate that they used to so my heart prayers and thoughts go out to all of you all I know that this is a difficult time in our nation but I just want to again thank my listeners for joining in with me and on next week if I don't decide to do the comic book just bear with me I'll get it for you definitely it'll be issued for coming up but I think we're going to talk about school selection because we're going to have a lot to deal with this coming fall so we're going to talk a little bit about school selection and whether or not homeschooling or public school or charter school again as as we know public school may be virtual school in the fall we don't know but I encourage you to stay safe out there and I hope that you join us on next week we hope you enjoy today's show don't forget to rate us and follow us on your podcast player check out our show page radio dot new heights education dot org for monthly announcements and other happenings