How Humanity is Reconciled to God: Penal Substitution vs. the Early Church | with Fr. Joseph Lucas

Dr. Nathan Jacobs sits down with Fr. Joseph Lucas to discuss penal substitution atonement. The discussion examines the claim that penal substitution is the biblical and historic view of the atonement. Drawing on the writings of Cyril of Alexandria and other early Christian sources, Fr. Joseph Lucas explains how the Church Fathers understood sacrifice, sin, and the work of Christ very differently from later Western models.The discussion looks at the sacrificial system of the Old Testament, typology, and the meaning of Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension. The result is a picture of atonement centered on purification, victory over death, and the transformation of human nature—not a transfer of punishment.This conversation also explores how differences in biblical interpretation led to very different conclusions about what the Cross accomplishes.Support the East West Series: https://theeastwestseries.com/ Bio: Archpriest Joseph Lucas is an Orthodox Christian priest, theological scholar, college professor, and practical philosopher. He received his PhD in Theology at Radboud Universiteit Nijmegen (Netherlands) and his MDiv with Distinction in Church History and Patristics at St Tikhon's Orthodox Theological Seminary (Pennsylvania). He specializes in research pertaining to patristic exegesis and historical theology.Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/lt40zf4KpV8Fr. Joseph’s parish in Miami: https://www.oca.org/clergy/Joseph-Lucas/ - His blog, Prudence and Piety: https://prudenceandpiety.com/ - His parish podcast, Apostolic Tradition: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQlnsUX0xxfCfBWmQmrrQ8w - Fr. Joseph Lucas’ book: How to Read the Holy Fathers: A Guide for Orthodox Christians: https://store.ancientfaith.com/how-to-read-the-holy-fathers-a-guide-for-orthodox-christians/ - Another episode Dr. Jacobs and Fr. Lucas did together: https://youtu.be/3Yt5fItpy7U?si=0BRySP8VEQgv-9I9 Mentioned:- East Vs. West (Part 1) - Dr. Nathan Jacobs, Orthodox Miami: https://youtu.be/kVGkrtzx1DY?si=hmCwdH5YTN3hcpQn- Fr. Joseph’s appearance on The Symbolic World: https://youtu.be/0FuO88QVlN0?si=8UmUZF4Cc5ZmHD1X - Fr. John Behr’s book, The Case Against Diodore and Theodore: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Diodore-Theodore-Oxford-Christian/dp/0198800215 Dr. Nathan’s series on penal substitution:Part 1: https://youtu.be/WHx21LQncFI?si=Y-WaG636sATOZ03S Part 2: https://youtu.be/-MXLs6J2JBw?si=XxHHcXmqnjhx4G95 Timestamps:00:00 - Coming up00:18 - Start01:27 - Introduction03:11 - Fr. Joseph's work05:24 - What is penal substitution atonement?07:41 - Fr. Lucas' background13:44 - Approaching St. Cyril of Alexandria on atonement18:00 - St. Cyril's influences23:09 - An incorrect exegesis25:08 - The Father looking away from the Son34:04 - Origen35:18 - Christ acting in the Old Testament39:39 - A discussion on the term sin56:58 - Passover01:00:28 - Substitution01:03:20 - Presuppositions: early vs modern Christians01:11:31 - Assuming our nature01:15:19 - The blameless passions01:24:35 - Testing vs temptation01:29:59 - Justification and vindication01:46:33 - Salvation is a mystery==========================Do you like this content? Join Jacobs Premium to get exclusive access to written essays, exclusive lecture series, monthly Q&A Zoom calls, and our book club. Use code: LEWIS to get a discount: https://www.thenathanjacobspodcast.com/All the links:The Theological Letters Substack: https://nathanajacobs.substack.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thenathanjacobspodcastX: https://x.com/NathanJacobsPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nathanandrewjacobsAcademia: https://vanderbilt.academia.edu/NathanAJacobsListen and please review the podcast elsewhere:Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0hSskUtCwDT40uFbqTk3QSApple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-nathan-jacobs-podcast