Welcome to Stacking Growth! Call to Action, a show for the Trailblazers, change makers, and paradigm shifters. Each week, a different marketing hero who is called to make a change in their field will join us to walk through each step of their journey. They'll cover the highs, the lows, and what's coming next.
Together, we'll help you find the changes needed for your own businesses to win. I'm Steph Ragnola, I'm here with Evan Hughes, and today we are so excited to welcome Refine Labs Performance Marketing Manager, Aaron Weeks. Aaron represents Refine Labs' commitment to creating a talent destination by focusing on building community over competition. On the Purposeful Marketing Podcast, Aaron and his co-host offered airtime to job-seeking marketers so they could showcase their expertise and skills to help them in their job search by having organic content.
Aaron, thank you so much for jumping on today. Yeah, thank you, Steph. I'm excited to talk about this topic because it's so impactful. It's so impactful to me and I know we'll break it down.
And there's a lot of places I can go, so I'm excited to see where that goes organically. Me too. So let's dive in. Tell me a little bit about your path into marketing and your recent podcast segment that you developed to help folks who are also searching for marketing jobs.
Love it. So I will give you a little bit of my background because it's gonna relate to some of the activities and behavior that I've done going forward. I think it's also important, as on our show, we talk a lot about the non-linear path. When we think about the marketer today, you think it's just a staircase, right?
I'm gonna go from this position, this job, this industry. It's just step-by-step. But I know so many people in my network, in my friends, and even at Refine Labs, right? Where maybe you took an escalator and then you jumped on the elevator and you did the walking elevator and then you went back downstairs.
It's a non-linear path to where you got to. So that's how I really view my journey as a marketer. Where I got a flossy degree, which is gonna come out a lot in this conversation right now as I bring certain pieces out of it. But I didn't know what it was gonna be a marketer, right?
Is I knew I'd like to think, I'd like to talk like we're doing today. And it took a while for me to actually utilize that skill set in the marketing industry. I got my first shot at Caterpillar. So also that was different as I went in-house first at a big fortune five-month company.
I had a much different view of marketing than for example, someone who gets in maybe a smaller industrial mid-sized company or someone who jumps in the agency world or someone who jumps in the early startup, right? Then from that path, I really started to find my niche. It took me a while going back to that escalator, the elevator, the back down the steps, back out the steps. I jumped in the agency world after Caterpillar to do copywriting, to do strategy, to do paid media, and then to do a director of the management position and now I'm back to performance marketer.
Wow, that's a different type of journey, right? This is not what I'm talking about. So I want to share that because that's non-linear. And I didn't know what's gonna happen that way.
And we'll get into this in more details. But I think a lot of others as I'm talking about their careers are evaluating this too. What's that non-linear path for me? I love that.
I took a very similar kind of non-linear path too. So I connected that sentiment, started in-house marketing mass organizations. I feel like there's that moment of if you need that there's that spark or that sudden itch to change, right? That's what I had.
I was making certain progress and I recognized there was something that maybe I was more interested in. So I really love to understand like how you thought about win and why you made that change, whether it was because the escalator broke down or suddenly you wanted to change directions. But like, what was it in your journey that helped spark that? And then that kind of helps me understand too, was why you brought that to market it to help educate others.
Love it. And I think that's a great question. That's a smart that inflection point. It's gonna be different for everyone.
The one thing I do recommend for everyone though is come up with your list. So what I mean is we talk about this on the podcast a lot. And also I've done this one on one when others are graduating their career is, what are those 10 things that make you happy? What are those 10 things that don't make you happy?
Have that list visible at any time. When you're evaluating like, when I need to spark is, I mean, I really need a new job position. Maybe I need to pivot into paid versus creative. Let me go to my list.
Things that I love, right? Is I love working with people directly one on one. Great. I need to be in the client service space.
I love being challenged from a mindset standpoint. Great. I want to work for an agency that's a very visionary mindset that wants to really push the edges of what we can do in marketing. Man, I really am organized.
I want to fit around other people who are organized as well. So have your list ready. And also have the things you hate. I mentioned that because maybe you can't change those things, is I just really want a remote job.
I can't have it right now. That's okay. But at least you recognize that. And understand that there's going to be some pain in life, right?
That we want to be able to solve and make some pleasurable stuff more pleasurable. So that's what I always offer is that list. So I think for me, back to that question, I was like, what was that spark and inflection point? Is I was evaluating my list specifically at Caterpillar and being in a big organization saying, you know what, I want to get deeper.
I want to do different things. What happens in a big organization is sometimes that doesn't happen. Sometimes you have to take that leap, look at your list and say, okay, I'm going to agency world, really push myself, really get out of my comfort zone and see how the nonlinear path evolves every time. You're in this, you know, like, there's certain scenarios that maybe are uncomfortable or you do not like in your role.
I think there's a fine distinguishing line there though, between like what kind of steps you need to make intentionally, knowing that you're going to get to what you love. So it's not necessarily running away from like those elements of hate, but from what I think I heard you say, is just really recognizing those moments and start slowly making that shift and that pivot will change. And I think as you talk about bringing, you know, job seekers, marketers into your podcast and having conversations with them, getting them familiar with, you know, just kind of this dialogue and how to create that. What kind of, what led you to want to do that, right?
So recognizing your own journey and your own path. How did you find that this was suddenly an element or an opportunity that you wanted to provide that help in service to other individuals eagerly seeking? It was another inflection point which I looked at my list and I knew that I needed to take a different step. And the one thing I loved was having conversations.
And that's where the podcast came in, where my cohost, Mary Keo, James Beweckman, Mary Keo's like content product director at CoLab and James Beweckman is the content director at Co76. We were having these conversations every day. And that's how I got better as a marketer, is we were talking about the deep tactics, but then we were talking about the deep life stuff. And that's what makes my career worthwhile.
So we're having that conversation and we really just wanted to commit to recording it weekly. That's where that evolved, right? That was that spark inflection point is when you're going to take a story and you may not know where it goes, but I know I'm going to take a solo. Or I'm going to walk this.
For us, it's like, we're going to walk this and record this weekly and see where it goes. From that experience, and we're about 101 episodes now, I never thought I would be talking to my own heroes such as Ranfishing, whom we had on the pod. That was never how I started my journey. I just know I was going to walk that path.
I didn't know who was going to be on the path with me. So how does that relate to marketers right now? Why do we want to do this? This was that inflection point is, we want to make sure that marketers took that path.
A lot of the time with podcasting a video, which I'd love to get into later, like why I think this would give you advantage in the job searches. People stop themselves, right? I've never done that before. I've never been on the podcast.
I have been postrenge, I don't think my expertise is worthwhile. We said get out here with that. All I want to do is show up on our podcast for 15 minutes and marry myself and James, we're going to ask you questions to help you formulate that, to help you get that type of content. So that's exactly what we did.
I'm happy to break that down in more details. But the inflection point again was, I knew job seekers needed this. And we had the skill set, we had the mindset, we had the tool set, we had the space for them. So it was really important to me to just do it for them and help them get over those obstacles and get on the path that they needed to be.
I think it's really cool to hear that too, to value that community over competition. There are so many people searching for jobs right now, but to be able to use your platform, even if you're in a similar space, also looking for a job to help other people fine tune the way that they're approaching that job search, is such a valuable way to build community. Cause we are all in there, we're all in the musical, we're all in this together. Exactly, I think community is such a big proponent of what we do at Refined Lands with the vault and what we do with our content and how we get that out there.
And it's similar to build small communities too, around different topics. That's exactly what we did is, I didn't know we would talk to all these different marketers and all these different positions had the same problems. And then as I was talking to them, I could say, hey, I just talked to someone, they're experiencing this. Let me give you their LinkedIn.
How about you guys talk together? That community building was another big aspect of, again, I wasn't planning that, that wasn't on the path, but as we were walking by, I was like, oh man, there's a community over here, that we can start working with. Awesome, Aaron. So it's extremely welcoming to hear other individuals in marketing wanting to bring people in under their wing and kind of support and educate them, or just try different angles.
And I know there's one thing to ask questions and kind of learn, but there's another thing to really dig deep and get people to feel comfortable out of their comfort zone. So I love you to walk through, like maybe some of the frameworks you use or the tool, or how you approach structuring some of those initial conversations and how that built momentum where you continuously continue those going forward. Great question. Because I do want to dive into the framework as what we were trying to do is give people content that they did not have before.
And when I talk about content, it's not, here's what's on my resume, here's what's on my cover letter. It's, how can I ask other questions that really shows the real them, shows their POV, shows their different mindset. How we did that was, it was very formatted. It's like everyone has 15 minutes to talk to us.
But some of the questions we asked is questions I encourage others to ask themselves in their own job search, one journey is, number one, what is the story you really want someone to hear? I don't care if it's like work related, tactic related, strategy related, say you're having coffee with someone, like what is that one story you want someone to take with them? And when they think about your name, here's that story. So we get people to start talking about that.
Another great question that we asked to get them in that high level mindset was, what is your purpose in life and how does that play out in your role? That's a big question, right? Even I see both your faces like, oh man, what that. The reality is when you ask those type of questions, you get those type of answers.
And a lot of the time people ask us, right? Is where going through the motions, going through a routine of working, living life. No one just sits there and says, hey, Eric, can you explain your purpose to me? So what you do, it is amazing what type of answers you get to that question.
That was probably the most exciting part for me. Other pieces of the framework were a little more framed around how can you get those juicy soundbites for interviews. So those would be, perhaps, tell us about one big project where you're happy about the result, then also explain where you failed. That's a great question, right?
Because you get it from all different angles. Other specific questions would be around, if you're in that elevator pitch and you got 60 seconds, like specifically what do people come to you for to help them out with? Again, as an example, I mean, I really need marketing ops helps and I need someone to help me understand demand and philosophy. I'm gonna go to Evan, right?
I kind of know, he talks about that, I know his content. I can tell you in 60 seconds that he knows something specific about that. That's what we try to get people to do as well. Because we're all marketers and we all work at agency, we're in different ads, everyone can do everything.
But if I don't know you, what's the like six second bit of, like, this is what I need Aaron to do and why? So we asked a lot of those questions. And I think that really helped take people out of the mindset of, I have this posture center, I don't want to walk the path. And they started to walk the path.
They started waving their hands. They started yelling out their stories. They started saying with so much purpose, like, this is what I do and why. So I think that was the experience coming from building that framework and seeing the result, not knowing what the outcome was.
We were all really excited to see where it went. Sometimes when you don't know where you can or take you later, right, then that could be the biggest lever to start and build and strategize. So I really appreciate your kind of identity there. That's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work for yourself. It's a lot of work to bring people together. I know that even just the scheduling, the editing, all of those components build, it's such a great and valuable thing that you're doing. But how have you balanced?
You mentioned the failures, right? How have you balanced the excitement and the energy and the fulfillment of making these spaces available with your own workload and your own time and your own job search and all of those things that pile on? Was there ever a moment where you felt like it was just too much to keep doing? How did you push forward through that?
This is a great question. I'll give you a real answer, which is, it was way too much work. And I trust myself, and I was just out. And the reality was, let's go back to my list.
This is what helped me get through it. I know one of my list things I love is I love connecting with people. I love conversing with them. I love helping them solve that big aha.
So as I was deliberating, certain pains of I'm really behind on getting everyone their clips. I haven't published that as it will be out this week. So as you listen to this episode, it'll be live. And just working through that, I went back to my list and say, hey, man, I'm dealing these things.
I'm really energized. And I have a spark when I'm talking to others about their job search. I know that through this experience, people also found jobs after the fact, even before that was live. So just a moment on that was building around, here's my list.
There's pains. There's always pains, right? But I'm happy those pains are there because I was so happy with the result. That's super relatable and difficult to work through.
But I think it's great to be able to see that end result of the fact that it has even paid off before you've launched it. So certainly my wife was not happy. I mentioned that. But I have a baby as well.
But when I tell people that we did this process and they can feel the energy that I felt when I was interviewing others, and they get it. The second you can help someone else out, we all understand it. It's really good. Yeah.
I think you scratched the surface a little bit there, too, on your purpose to the work element is supporting families, supporting yourself, finding an individual audience, how you're going to keep pushing forward. And you think about also, you talk about some of the challenges that come with just timelines and setting the bar too high at times to meet that bar or your ability to continue to produce. But talking about purpose, too, and talking about your focus going forward, what kept you really going back to this? What really kept you champion forward and wanting you to continue to drive?
When there are moments of defeat, I'm sure, or moments where you're just like, I can't do this. But what was that aha? I got to keep pushing myself forward. But I think the word that puns in mind is accountability.
There's a shared accountability that formed when we started recording, which is, hey, I just met you. We've never met before. And now I just heard your whole story and everything you're struggling with. I feel accountable to fix this.
And then likewise, people felt accountable to check in with me and say, hey, I'm always like this. But also, I was setting others up with each other. I was like, hey, you're looking for the same role. I just talked to someone.
Let me connect to you. So through that community building, through our content, is we started to build a shared accountability that all kept us moving forward down that path that we all took together. I love it. I'm trying to think, one, I want to join one of your episodes, too, and I was learning a time and just continue to grow and challenge myself.
But putting one tough question on you, too, as you reflect, what was one of the biggest things that you appreciate about this journey for your own self and your own growth? What's one thing that takes away that you're kind of like, wow, because I actually, other than continuing the journey forward? Yeah, I think some things that were validated for me and then perhaps after this question really talk about some tactical things I think are important for listeners when they're doing their job search is what validated for me is you have to build relationships. It can be done in different ways in this age, right?
We're doing it over a podcast. We've done through video. It can be done through webinar. All these different types of formats we do it.
But the reality is you've got the relationships. The reason why I work at Refined Labs is perhaps the relationships that I built, right, prior to coming here. The reason why I felt comfortable coming to Refined Labs is the relationships that I saw through example content, right? Is I have an isolated content for years.
I never had a conversation with you until we had the phone call about Confined Labs, right? But man, I was like, comfortable. Man, I understand your POV. I understood your mindset, your philosophy.
That really validated this experience for me. As I started here, others talk about their job search, like what they're good at, what they need. I would ask them after the call, like, wait, what do you think you need the most help? And they all kept saying, well, I just need to connect to people.
I need to build relationships. It's like, exactly. But I would always tell them as an affirmation, like, the fact that you're here right now, I know you're gonna solve that. Like, you're at the right place.
So that was a big one to me. And I think the second piece, which is, when this comes from out, you'll hear multiple marketers say what they're good at is storytelling. And I found that so fascinating because that's what I think I'm good at too. I would say most people do, but I think there's something underneath that that's really important, which is as things shift and as things change, you have to own the story.
You have to own the narrative. No matter what your role is, what your function is, you have to be able to say, here's what happened, here was the result. And here's what we should do next. That is storytelling in a nutshell, right?
It is beginning, middle, and end. Markers who practice this, and you can do it by jumping on these episodes that we're doing. You can do it by maybe starting your own podcast. Like getting better at storytelling is gonna help you in the job search.
I love this. It's so cool to hear kind of at the tail end of your own story, sharing your own story with us on this format to know that you're so deeply rooted in that mindset and helping others find it in themselves. I think that's really cool. Definitely, it's looking.
It all makes it sick. No, so one other discovery as I was doing this because this helps me back to my own personal story is, I was also laid off earlier this year, which is somewhat started this process. I already had this process going, not knowing that it was gonna happen to me too. We were already recording episodes.
So that was just an aha, like, okay, I'm in the same boat, doing the same thing. But one thing I learned quickly is to set yourself apart. You have to do video content. Again, this was something I was already comfortable with doing.
I have a weekly podcast. We push out episodes on YouTube, I cut clips. It's something that's in my nature at this point. I know for other marketers, I really stress this because you need to start somewhere.
If it's, again, a tactic that I do all the time is send people to Zoom videos. You can get a free link account, you can record yourself and say, hey, hello, that is the new email. Another tactic is, again, what we're trying to do with the podcast was get people sound by clips that they could send with their resume. Now, the key thing with this is what is happening to job recruiters as I've talked to them, as well as job searchers, is there's too much AI content out there.
The AI content is coming in the resume. AI content is coming on LinkedIn. You're seeing it to many places. What is happening is content is so easy and so quick on AI that it's being saturated.
So where can you really stick out in some video? People can't take my face right now. I hope I am. We'll see.
But it's that tool package, my face, my mannerisms, my energy. That sets you apart. So when I'm talking about maybe challenges, our tactics are like my POV mindset. That's what's going to put you in position to really show yourself, is actually showing yourself a video.
It's the same with trust and relatability too. We see it with brands. You want to build that trust through content. You're doing the same thing with yourself.
You get into an interview and someone has seen your face and heard your voice and watched the way you talk. And there's such a tangible connection there that we get from content in video. And even in podcasts that a resume or a cover letter can never fully display. Yeah.
And I think any reality is you have to stick out. You have to be different. You've got to be different. You've got to be different.
You've got to be a message. It's the same thing. And what people I think are not realizing is it's too easy to do the content with AI. And so they just stick to that.
What I would encourage them is to start this app, take a journey, do something painful. Maybe it's very painful for you to record video. I promise you, you're going to come up aside feeling better at a different destination happier and grown from where you started. I think that's another episode in itself is the application of.
So once you identify your purpose, once you have your list of do's and don'ts and once you're able to bring yourself to being uncomfortable, being uncomfortable, being uncomfortable, I think that that's such an important message for any job seeker or current or that potentially is anticipating some changes in the market. You touch on AI a little bit as well. And I think that's just an interesting component of all conversations in and outside of marketing, but specifically in marketing. This idea of personalization and trying to be authentic.
But yeah, people are trying to speed and repetition and these tools are kind of creating this like almost like robotic nature of outreach. What's like, if we think about the shift from like the marketers or job seekers looking for new roles and opportunities and you talk about video, what's like another way that they can get that video to guarantee it reaches the right audience? So I'm gonna go a little bit deeper there too. That's one thing for me to record a loom, but then it's like, I don't know what to do with that.
I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do with it. I don't know what's uncomfortable.
Like do you have any tips or tricks that you can share with the audience that would make them maybe feel more comfortable about that step one be. Yeah, this is a great question. I'm gonna tie it around another big question, which is what I ask people sometimes is, what is good to you? That's contextual, right?
Is you should really evaluate yourself and what you need to do around that question. Evan is awesome. I'm sure what his good is different than what my good is, right? Steph is the same.
You know, maybe some days Steph is like, a person out like eight different podcasts. That's awesome. That's good for me. When you're evaluating what's good for me, that's gonna help you come to more tactical answer.
So I'll give you a specific example of what I did for my job search and I'll get other tips. Is I knew that I might best when I can be authentic, I can get on video, I can really share my mindset. So how did that play out? Is I just starting to take these loom videos where I was just talking about what I'm doing in my day in the job search and what it means to me.
It's a very similar experience as what you're getting on this episode. So I would just mention, hey, I applied for these jobs here's something I learned. Here's a big thought I'm thinking about. That's something I would do on off video regardless.
If you just talk to me in person, that's what's good to me. Like I can do that. So I put that video out there. Those are probably some of my best posts ever.
And I was at four times writing really frequently on LinkedIn and doing it every day. So that was good to me. What's good to you? You should really think about it.
It may be easy just to send someone a loom and an email. Maybe it's much harder to be on LinkedIn, how many people's posts every day and sending a loom in the comment. Man, that's awkward, right? That's like really hard.
I don't even know if I do that, but man, that sets you apart. That's kind of back to that question. Like what is good to you? What sets you apart is you really gotta evaluate that for yourself.
Again, it may be easy for you to get these clips, joining our podcast and person marketing podcast and get these clips. It's gonna be much harder to create your list of target places you wanna work and then take that content and go on LinkedIn, go find the hiring manager and message them and say, hey, I'm just asking if you have these positions open. Here's a clip of me talking about it be best for you, even though you don't have this job live. Man, that's a lot, that's outcome, right?
You're just doing an outcome there. So how I would evaluate that since there's a bunch of different answers is like what is good to you? And then like try to push past that a little bit. And I think that's where you're gonna get the most growth and that's probably where you're gonna get the best outcome.
Yeah, that's all really helpful, really insightful and really exciting. So with these tips, I think it's really important to evaluate what works for you. But also, I would love to hear, maybe from Evan, as I know you do hiring at the fine labs and we just talk about all these different tips job seekers can do. Do you have any recommendations or things that resonate with you are really like ideas of like, oh man, that's awesome.
I wish more people would apply to Refine Labs to that. That's such a good question. And I think just like hearing how you got to this point through your journey of being laid off, having a kind of finding new opportunity, finding jobs, putting yourself out there in a different way. I think if you think about the talent that we wanna bring to Refine Labs, right?
We want the best and the brightest individuals, but we also want that innate curiosity. So getting uncomfortable by challenging yourself. So I think like to your point about potentially a video out to a hiring manager or appear on the team that's in your network, that absolutely would resonate a little bit because I wish I could, the amount of time said, a profile is shared through this dark world of be a slack or a direct DM. About look at this individual's content that's really resonated with what we're trying to fit.
I would just say that the one thing that we look for is like that consistency. Because it's one thing that like, you're kind of in the job market and then for one week you're putting yourself out there, you're kind of talking this narrative and then it falls off. If truly understanding somebody that's passionate is recognizing that they're showing up every day or a couple of times a week, they're getting uncomfortable putting themselves out there. So whether that is video, whether you're kind of a long form text, whether you're in communities and you're just seeing your name floating around, I think it's just a matter of showing up.
But that is what drives it. Interest for us, Refine Labs specifically is like that uniqueness and continuing to remain curious about it. Erin, thank you so much for sharing your journey with us. We are so grateful for your time, your insights and we hope that everyone listening starts their own lists, locks down their own purpose and starts pushing their curiosity forward through their own content.
If you like hearing these journeys, make sure to subscribe and share this episode out to your network. And if you want to nominate a marketing hero to come on and chat with us, feel free to get in touch. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you all next time.