How to make your worklife actually work for you

This is a global player original podcast. Hello, welcome to You're Wrong About ADHD. I'm Sam Pritis. Hello, Katie Brethley.

Hello Katie, how are you? I'm really well, how are you? Yeah, we're talking about subject today, which is one that you never stop talking about. This is an episode right up your street.

We're going to talk about ADHD and work, which is essentially about finding and harnessing the positives of ADHD, which you are all about. Oh, well, you know, I did a range of hilarious jobs before I finally found a thing where I could actually function. And there were enormous amount of fun doing lots of them, you know, working behind a bar. I was an assistant in a book shop in W.H.

Smith's many, many years ago. But I was, you know, there were some environments which really didn't suit me. And it's only now that I've come to realize that I essentially, I essentially used my panic to spur me on to finding ways to make those environments work. A really, really good example for me enough was one of the very first jobs I ever did working in a factory where I had to stick a sticker on a thing because it went past and then you put it on the conveyor that off it would go.

I lasted four days. I fainted on the fourth. And of course, you know, there will be people who will just accuse me of being a middle-class cow who can't cope with the factory job. It wasn't that.

It was the fact that I wasn't allowed to talk to the girl opposite me. And it was the same thing over and over and over again. It was relentless. And it was so boring.

I was going absolutely crazy in my head. And I know why now, but I didn't know then. And I think physiologically I think my body just shut down. That was the way that it was.

Absolutely. But also, you know, another example I was, it will surprise you. It will surprise you to know this to learn this about me, Sam. I was a security guard for a while.

It was a very great, everyone was very afraid of me. So I worked for a company where we would be bust to a location and we would camp on site, say a country show or a city show. They bust. Yeah, not trouble there.

They're not trouble at the country shows. People breaking into barns at night. I'll have you know. Anyway, they would bust a bunch of us to these places.

We would camp and they did the jobs. And I remember early on being given one particular century job. It was these were 12 hour shifts and then someone would come and relieve you. The night shift of the day should depending on which one you were on.

And I again realized quite quickly I do not have the kind of personality where I can just sit in a chair and watch people come in and out. And I started to get very clenched and do the whole kind of fists thing. I was like, oh my god, I find, you know, I'd find I'd be playing games inside my head or I'd be playing scales on the piano on my knees and doing all of these different things. And after a few days, I started to realize that there were different kinds of jobs available within this group.

And one of the jobs was walking around the perimeter of the site with a David M. Pinscher. Emma, who's name I remember, and she was gorgeous. She stayed in the caravan with us.

And she had this wonderful, stunning collar. Looked terrifying. She was actually terrified about the dogs. And she would whine whenever she saw another dog.

But as soon as I had something to do, as soon as I had a dog to focus on, as soon as I had something to occupy my mind, I was fine. And actually by the end of working for them, I'd spent a whole summer with them. And by the end of working for them, I'd identified that there was one particular job involved you getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning and feeding everybody before they went off for their shift at 7 a.m. And I decided I'd far rather do that, get up at 4, feed over 100 people, I'll cook breakfast and be really, really busy and go nuts for 3 hours and then be done.

I still can't go over the picture of you in your SWAT gear walking around the perimeter fence with your dog woman. I was terrifying. I can imagine you probably were talking about where you are now though. Identifying, you know, you got into journalism, you are a radio presenter.

How does ADHD present? And how, I mean you're a big believer that your ADHD has drawn you to a job. Because I think, I've always said to my boys, I think it's so important when you are young that you have a goat doing lots of different things. Because that is how you find out what you are good for.

We're not good for everything. And ADHD is especially, oh definitely not good for everything. And you know, over the course of those years of being a teenager and a student and being able to sort of try out different things working behind a bar which I absolutely loved because I got to talk to people on the other side of the bar. Or dance to the music when the music was not in the pub.

But I discovered radio completely by chance my best mate Georgie, who is far more driven and focused than I. She had already realised that she wanted to have a life in radio journalism. And in our final year at uni, she came to me and she said, I can't quite believe it, but I've managed to bag this one hour. slot on student radio with its 12 listeners.

And I'm a bit worried about doing it, oh my, I wanted to do it. I wanted to co-present it with me. And I thought, yeah, but that sounds like a real laugh. You just turn up music down and you check, play silly music, play a bit very manalow.

And it was a complete light bulb moment. Completely by chance I'm sitting in a studio environment. I raised a fader and realised for the first time, oh my god, there's something. Not only can I do this under this environment, but I think I'm actually quite good at this.

What is the about if it resonates with you and your ADHD essentially? You get to be yourself, which is obviously a good thing. So the masking is gone. So that's probably the first thing actually.

It's communication. So your brain is constantly fizzing about what's the next thing, what's the next thing you're going to do. And I remember when we were prepping for that show, it was called T42, and we presented it as a couple of old ladies who were inviting guests in and I guess were all spoof guests. It was, we were writing jokes on sketches essentially.

And it was creative and totally and utterly addictive. It became the best bit of my week. It had absolutely nothing to do with my degree and might explain why I didn't get a good degree. But it was, it absolutely became my focus.

And I knew immediately it took less than a second to realise that's what I wanted to do for living. And I think the thing, the reason why this conversation is so important is not all ADHD is cut out for radio. I'm not saying that for one minute because that's not true. But I do think there is a perfect environment and a perfect job for all ADHD.

And I think in an ideal world, we would be asking conversations differently. Actually, that conversation about ADHD and what a person is suited to starts in the careers advisor's office at school. Interesting you say that because I mean I had a few different jobs as a student. I was an assistant gardener for a time, not being outside.

I worked for a time at the IY store as well. I was quite young. The trick there, and this was ADHD. This is definitely down to ADHD.

Being able to press this information quickly was being able to read the back of the packet ten seconds before the customer. So explain what something did because I didn't have a clue what I was doing really. But you mentioned the careers library. That was the start of my journey.

I became a journalist and a radio presenter. And I had absolutely no idea what to do after my A-levels. No idea at all. I spoke to a lady in a careers library and she said, why don't you try journalism?

And I went, all right. And so... What she spotted in you that made her say that. I wonder what that was.

What she'd obviously summed me up right. So I went indeed at a ploma in journalism and tried out different things. And very quickly took about a light bulb moment. I realised the radio part was a bit I wanted to do.

And the newsroom was a thing that built to me because so much that I now understand about my ADHD fits. It was that being able to quickly process information. It was the sense that you were then essentially performing it on air as well. It was immediate.

You're immediately getting information. You're immediately showing that information. And then particularly key. It then goes away.

You don't have to think about that. And you move on to something else. It is the most ADHD job there ever was created. Oh, it really, really is.

And whenever I'm a little bit sharp with Robert, if ever I sort of speak strong words in the kitchen, you know, I want a thought to be out and I just want to get on with the next thing. He will say, you're not in a newsroom now. Because of course, in a newsroom, you get away with that behaviour. Don't you?

Something is not how you need to be. You say the thing quickly and you tend to be surrounded by neuro-biverse people. Certainly people who accept that it is a fast-moving environment and that. You can say things that would be unacceptable anywhere else.

And we, you know, we've had, my God, you and I have had some rounds when we were sitting around that news desk. That's my good job. It's absolutely an idea. I'd rather pretty much everyone on that table.

But it's always forgotten five minutes later because in the heat at the moment, you say the thing. You get it done. You move on. And that's ADHD.

It's living in the now and not being made to feel responsible. Well, what you've described there, though, is a succession of dopamine hits. I mean, it is essentially going right. There's information.

Everybody's got high stress. It's really buzzing. And there is. It's a real rush of a job.

Brilliant. It's brilliant newsroom. It's amazing places to work. The only thing that I am slightly cautious about, and I think it is an important point, is that not everybody is able to necessarily find themselves in the right position.

And there are lots of people who are in jobs and they look around and go, I've got ADHD. Maybe they newly diagnosed. This doesn't seem to fit. And that's something I think that we need to look at is how you manage your ADHD.

You harness the positives. Even if you're in an environment where perhaps it doesn't feel like it immediately fits. And we've got just the person to explore that with us. We're going to be speaking to Dr Fiona Peters, an ADHD coach for entrepreneurs in a moment.

Thank you so much for joining us, Fiona. Can I start by asking about this idea that people with ADHD can't function in a normal inverted commas office environment? I don't know that I necessarily agree with that, but what do you think some of the things in a standard workplace, perhaps for people who've been newly diagnosed, that might be challenging for those with ADHD? Different strokes for different folks where all with ADHD diagnosed have different preferences.

You can't really say there's one perfect environment. I think for people with ADHD, if you were to survey them, they would all feel very differently about their environment. Depending on how their internal energy system was working that day and how regulated they felt. It depends whether or not they get on with their colleagues or not.

I think that's a really big factor. So if your professional relationships don't work for you, it doesn't matter what the circumstantial environment looks like. It doesn't matter what the furniture looks like or what assistive technology you have or what accommodations your employees made. If you don't get on with your colleague or if there's a sound that keeps distracting you, that environment's not going to be quite right for you.

And I like to think that actually, even when you're an entrepreneur, your environment still sometimes can't work for you. Because sometimes you don't want to be at home working. Some days you do need to be out. You do need to be meeting people.

Other days you don't want to unleash on the world because you know that actually you're in a foul lid or you're tired or you're stressed about something or frustrated. So I think it's very dependent on the individual. And that's not to say let the tail wag the dog and just give in to whatever your mood does that day. I think there are definitely things that you can do.

Disciplines and routines, routine dirty word. But it's things that you can do if you're not feeling tip-top to actually encourage your nervous system to have a little bit of a reset. So it's about knowing what you're good at I suppose isn't it? What you're saying is that within any working environment, the important thing is for someone with ADHD to identify which bits they find challenging and then ask for help.

Yeah, I mean let's always hold front and center that everybody's going to be different. I'm not saying this is true for everybody. I'm not saying that if you have ADHD this is what you're going to feel. But some things are to do with sensory issues.

So let's start with the embodiment of ADHD because I think that often gets forgotten. So simple things lie, light in. So if things are very bright, over head fluorescent lights, that can be very heavy. It can actually lead to headaches.

So that's a huge thing. Too much screen time can lead to this feeling that your energy gets stuck. So you're sitting behind a screen all day. You're feeling like you haven't moved.

Maybe you've got engaging work and actually you've just hyper focused. But now you're feeling very low in your energy centers and you're feeling like maybe you haven't had a week or you haven't had a drink or you haven't actually just stretched. So by the end of the day, you're going to actually feel really exhausted. Doing that five days a week is going to have an impact on the body.

Noise background noise can be a distraction and external distraction. Internal distractions are thought. I don't think I'm very good at this job. I think they're talking about me.

Do I need to get up? Or I think I've done that wrong. Oh shit, that email. You know, those sorts of internal pressures that come from that sense of self doubt in an office environment can be heightened because you're feeling like you're being judged.

So if you're home alone and you're working in your home office, you can talk to yourself. You can say shit, I've not done that. You can have a bit more self awareness. And in your experience, Fiona, have you found that employers are receptive to suggestions about changes of environment in favor of a more ADHD friendly workplace?

I feel like I feel like yes and no. Yes, the policy will say equality act, disability, reasonable adjustment. The manager, however, will very possibly not have the best relationship in the world with that employee. I like block any changes or it can boil down to a problem with an individual.

Perhaps you might be a bit skeptical about ADHD. Yeah, they might be skeptical or they might have already had conflicts and sometimes actually the employee with the diagnosis can be seen as disrupting the workflow and often they've been unreliable. Sadly, they've been unreliable. They've been late.

They haven't hit deadlines. They haven't got along with colleagues. They found it difficult to settle into the physical space. They've asked to work from home or flexible hours and these things have all been say refused and then they've gone off and got an ADHD diagnosis and they can be a little bit of resentment sometimes towards.

Well, no, if we do this for you, we've got to do it for everybody. So while in theory, everything's nicely laid out and well, it pointed steps to follow, train and delivered that actual implementation can be trickier in terms of just the relationship dynamics of an office environment. And in that situation, say somebody listening to this absolutely identifies with what you have just described and they are kind of trapped, especially post diagnosis in a place where they, for the first time, recognize that this is not working for them and probably their employer recognizes that it's not working for them either. What is your advice to them?

What do they do? I mean, is it as simple as you've got to get out and just find another job? People with ADHD can bounce from job to job, taking their problems with them. And I think that isn't a solution because I would like to think that what would need to happen would be a sense of taking accountability and saying, okay, right, these are the things that I'm not doing so well.

These are the areas where I feel like in this job I'm underperforming. These are the supports I need. But these are the things that I'm really, really good at. And these are the things that actually, if I can focus on these things, but I feel like I will give value to this organization.

However, if I'm stuck doing these things, I'll always be seen as a problem because you're asking them to do the worst possible thing in our skillset. Yeah. So actually, what you said earlier is you don't necessarily believe there are specific jobs that people with ADHD should do that actually depends on the individual. But what you are saying is that within any work environment, the important thing is for someone with ADHD to identify which bits they're good at and which bits they find challenging and to ask for help.

Yeah. And have a conversation, you know, an open conversation. You don't have to disclose that you, oh, I've got a diagnosis of ADHD and I can't do this, this, this, and this. And I only want to do this, this, and this, you know, it's about having a dialogue, a sensible dialogue where you're actually taking accountability and saying, look, this is me, this is the way I work.

This is what I need in order to do my best work. And these are the things that are going to absolutely drain me, but also I'm really not going to do them that well. So, for example, if you're in a client facing role, you really want to have somebody with ADHD meeting your clients. You really want your ADHD person in your ideas meeting.

You really want that person to be thinking about ways to improve things in the organization. But what you don't need is for your person with ADHD to be doing the admin after the client meeting, putting the minutes and the notes together, making sure they get to everybody. You don't want them having to do the mundane routine boring tasks. So there are definitely areas where people with ADHD are an absolute asset.

Yes, yes. And, you know, all those wonderful things that you described, all those positive aspects of ADHD that you described, those are things that some people find. Really hard to do, aren't they? Some people hate being client facing, taking people out and being social.

And it is about recognizing our strengths and going, what are you good at? And any employer who does that is going to get the best out of their employees. You'd say, productivity must be affected if you do that with workforce. It's really interesting because I always feel like people think that ADHD is great employees.

However, a lot of companies that are set up by people with ADHD hire other ADHD people and put them in sales and marketing or innovation, you know, in those roles. Where development and ideas are key. So I think it's a strange irony that somehow you have ADHD, you set up a company, you hire other people with ADHD, but expect them not to behave as if they have it. You've got to take the rough with the smooth ultimately, haven't you?

If you want the benefits of our ADHD, you're going to have to accept that there are some things that will be rubbish at. But a lot of that is to do with the cultural assumptions we have about what hard work looks like, what success looks like. And a lot of things, the stereotypes of ADHD, whether that's, you know, being lazy or being forgetful, we associate as being the opposite of success and hard work. How much of this is actually changing the way people think about first about ADHD, but actually what is a marker of success?

It's a cultural change. I would hope it's a cultural change because I think that any time there's a narrative about a subgroup or a subculture, if you see ADHD as a new kind of recognised identification, despite being a disability, and it's a characteristic that actually defines adults and children now. And that's a new conversation that we're having. We're not only understanding ADHD as a childhood condition or disorder, we're understanding it as something that actually can have real consequences for adults in terms of success, and certainly trying to fit into this sort of predetermined, predetermined kind of expectations of what a good, successful employee looks like, or somebody who contributes to society in a positive way.

The fact that we're now having these conversations about ADHD and being open about them and destigmatising it means that actually we have a great range of people that we can look to and say they're successful. They're running a podcast. They're running a group for entrepreneurs. They're an entertainer.

They're a swimmer. These kind of representations are a cultural shift really in attitudes, and it's important that we do do that, and we do it in a sensitive way, because what we don't want ADHD to become in our seen this in workplaces is that people with ADHD, particularly in the creative industries, because of their enthusiasm, energy, dry innovation, they're exploited and they burn out. So they're expected to fly to New York and then back to London, and then to work 20 hours without a break, because, oh, you've got ADHD. I thought this was what you would get out.

So those things are also, we need to be mindful of saying ADHD is a superpower and aren't we fantastic at X, Y, Z, because that then becomes a way to exploit our potential and leave us burnt out. I've never had to sit through really long meetings, and I've seen really long meetings taking place in buildings and thought, I'm so lucky that I don't have to sit through that really long meeting. And I know I've got family members who do have to do that and who have ADHD. What would you say to somebody who's got like a two hour Monday morning meeting and spend the whole weekend fearing it?

What's the process of getting through that? There's a lot of things that you can do to manage meetings. For example, one of the things that I advocate in organisations is bringing in your neurodivergent population for the relevant parts of the meeting. So if you're going through all of the stuff that is about reflecting on the last week, sales targets, quotas, sales calls, those sorts of things, or general admin or logistics, you don't need your ADHD as in the room.

They're irrelevant to that. However, if you're doing something around development or you want new ideas for a new project, or you want to tackle a new client group, or you think that you actually want to do some new marketing, bring them in for that bit. They don't need to be in there for the entire meeting. When they're in the meeting, do not expect eye contact.

Do not expect to look at them and think that they are listening. Do not have the same expectations of them. Don't expect them to sit down in a circle, which feels completely exposing. Allow them to have a notepad and a pen.

Let them draw all over their bit of paper or whatever and doodle away till their hearts content. Allow them to have a post-it note where they can write down their questions so they're not constantly thinking I'm not allowed to interrupt. Meetings are a very challenging environment for an ADHD brain. Actually, we don't do well in the traditional meeting space where there are very strict rules around social behaviours and very judgemental mindsets that go around what is appropriate and what is not.

What if you do find yourself in a situation that doesn't suit you? What can you do to manage yourself? If you find yourself in a situation that doesn't suit you and you've spoken to your employer or you've spoken to the person who's running the meeting and you are in it for the long haul and you can't get out of it, I would suggest some sort of mindfulness technique. If you are there, you're going to have to manage and regulate your body because that body is going to tell you to get up to interrupt, to go off on a tangent.

And so you've got to learn to regulate. So mindfulness is quite good. So box breathing, you know, breathe in for four, hold for four, exhale for four, hold for four. You can do a couple of rounds of that.

You need things that are going to calm your nervous system down because your nervous system is going to go into heightened fight or flight because you're in a situation that is testing you. You're not going to be able to move. I would then make sure that you're setting your smartwatch or your phone every 15 minutes and just get up with what you're drinking water, you know, go to the loo, have a little stretch, you know, making sure. Find an excuse to move around.

One of the reason for moving that other people think is okay, like getting a drink or going to the loo. As you talk to me about burnout, I'm assuming it's important then to make sure that yes, you're taking regular breaks, but you're also looking at your workload and making sure that you are realistic about what you can do. Yeah, but we're not though, are we? So how do we put measures in place to stop that?

Because you're absolutely right. We don't listen to that voice. So what external measures can we put in place to remind ourselves? I mean, there are things about ADHD that are very difficult to manage and manage and burnout is huge because we thrive on this core adrenaline.

This cortisol adrenaline cocktail is like a gin and tonic to us and we absolutely thrive on it. And we give ourselves unrealistic expectations of what is achievable because somehow we think we can do more because we've got these these reserves. We've got this energy reserve that we can rely on. So actually having a consistent work rate depends on a number of other factors and their factors more to do with wellbeing.

So they're more to do with are you managing your medication if you're medicated? Are you eating properly? So not a feast or famine style eating? Oh, I've forgotten to eat now.

I'm just going to eat everything. And now I've eaten so much. I can't sleep and then you're up all night. So basic things.

Are you managing your sleep? You know, have you got good sleep hygiene is important? Are you making sure that you're exercising? Exercising is like a dirty word when you've got ADHD.

It's like motivating yourself to exercise. Just buying something and dying. It could be Tai Chi, just could be netball. It could be rounders, whatever it is that you like.

So once you've hit those pillars, then you can think, right, okay, how am I going to manage my working day and my workload? So if you find yourself working 11, 12 hours a day for a couple of days in a week, I think fair play. That's what needs to be done. However, if you're doing that consistently five days a week and maybe on the weekend as well, and I know a lot of teachers do this, a lot of doctors do this.

This is the expectation in some industries. Some industries are actually not good for people with ADHD, despite them having the skills to do the job. You are more likely to burn out because these industries will suck you dry, tend to be public sector sadly. They will play to the strengths of your ADHD.

You want to help people. You love the variety. You get a buzz from doing something different. No two days of the same.

Love all of that. However, you get in there and you find yourself doing 12 hour days, 60 hour a week. Yeah, so it's about ultimately us kind of, it's again, it comes back to what we talk about a lot. It's about awareness of our own limitations, obviously, and keeping that communication open and ultimately having that communication with our employer.

And if it's not working, then some big changes ultimately are going to be made. You know, I think also, you know, with ADHD, we are more likely to shift careers than other people. We get bored, but we get burned out. It's a big one.

And I think, you know, finding balance within our careers, which can actually offer a lot of power, person, a lot of meaning, is really, really important. You don't want to lose us from certain professions because we're being worked too hard and the expectations are unrealistic. But I think with ourselves having those boundaries where we say, do you know what? I worked late yesterday.

I'm not going to do that today. I'm going to take a long walk instead. I give you a lot of that mission to slack off a bit. Absolutely.

I understand yourself so that you can manage the rest of your life, so that you've got the energy to do the job when you're there. I think that's fantastic advice and something I really recognise. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for talking to us.

We really appreciate it. No, thank you, Sam. Thanks, Katie. Some really good advice in there at all.

For me, I loved her advice about boundaries. I think that's really key because I think that's what we're really bad at, ultimately. We're so good at jumping to self-criticism. We're so good at assuming that any failure or inability to complete the task is because of us.

No matter who else is on the team. And actually what she was saying was that actually sometimes too much is asked of us. Because of our brilliant quality, because of all of the creativity and socialisation that we bring to some of these roles, people can ask too much of us. And sometimes we need to go, hang on a minute.

We've only got so much that we can give. Yeah, and I think also this whole conversation about where should you be if you've got ADHD. The idea that there's a perfect job or a perfect environment out there isn't necessarily the case. What she was saying is it depends on the individual, depends where they want to be.

And wherever you are, there are things you can do to manage. Having that conversation with your workplace about what you're good at and what you struggle with. But also, as you were saying there, those boundaries in place that we've talked about so much. Being aware of your ADHD and saying, do you know what?

Maybe today's got to be a long day. Maybe I need to push it today, but I won't be able to do this five days in a row or I'll burn out. Recognising how much you can cope with, what you can do and actually when you need to draw a line is really important. Yes, and the one thing I would say is that the first time I ever heard the word superparrot, which I know has brought us to blows in the past, the first time I ever heard it was, oh, I should think days into my diagnosis journey from a relative who happens to be at Google.

And, you know, I've since learnt that Google is one of those companies that is incredibly switched on to ADHD, recognises what an ADHD brings to a creative process. And I think what we do have to look out for is that there are going to be some employers like Google where ADHD is celebrated and treated well and encouraged. There are going to be others where it's denied and those fears that we have about ourselves being lazy will be reinforced by that company. I think that's what we have to look out for.

And again, boundaries come into play there. If someone's treating you badly because of something you cannot help or they are giving you work, which is literally the last thing that you are capable of doing, you are in the wrong place and it's time to think about finding someone else to go. That's always everything from us for today, but before we go, we want to hear from you. We want to hear your confessions.

We've given enough of our own. Along the way, have you ever stood someone up at the cinema? Have you ever forgotten anyone's birthday? Of course you have.

But we want to hear your deepest, darkest secrets for our confessions. If you have a funny story about an ADHD moment, do let us know. Send us a voice note, please, to adhgpodcastatglobal.com, a voice note, as I say, to adhgpodcastatglobal.com. That's everything from us for today.

You can listen to your wrong about ADHD for free on Global Player. Download it from the app store or go to Global Player.com. See you next time. This is a Global Player Original Podcast.