How to Spot a Narcissist in Dating

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper we call her daddy dr romani welcome back to call her daddy thanks alex it's nice to see you again so good to see you again to remind everyone you are a clinical psychologist and the go-to expert when it comes to narcissism today i want to talk through how to differentiate a healthy relationship from a narcissistic relationship in dating before we dive in what are some common misconceptions you hear regarding narcissism so the common misconceptions are things like this is someone who's in love with himself they're really vain this is just somebody who's just all about the selfies and the likes that they're super confident those are the things that we hear so it's really kind of all we do is we focus on the superficial part of it or the kind of attention-seeking part of it and we miss all the rest of it because people will often think why are you so bothered by someone who just wants a lot of attention or just likes to wear really nice shoes and by making it that kind of superficial kind of mirror dancing person we miss a lot yeah that's really helpful because i think sometimes like someone will look at a singular trait that does not mean someone is narcissistic if they are just selfish like that's not just a singular thing selfish is a common misconception okay they're super selfish they're narcissistic or a big one alex is their cheater okay so somebody cheats on someone everybody he's a cheater he's a narcissist that's a narcissist no people cheat and a lot of cheaters are narcissistic but definitely not all and so we want to be careful because what you may have listen i mean you're cheating i often say sort of a crime of opportunity at times right that people will say okay you know too much to drink you have a very nice relationship with someone they're actually a decent person there's that drunk night in vegas they have an indiscretion they even come clean about it and say i you know they're genuinely contrite and that was unacceptable and i understand if you leave me if that person pivots and says that person's a narcissist i don't buy it you know i think that they were indiscreet i think they were careless maybe they're too immature to be in a committed relationship but i don't think that the sort of indictment of having this bigger issue of narcissism is there it also applies to selfishness right there are people out there who frankly set up their lives in a way that works for them and they make choices that they aren't bringing other people down so they may say i'm choosing to live alone i'm choosing not to be in a relationship i'm choosing not to have children those are their choices they're not hurting anyone with them but people say oh so selfish didn't have kids or didn't do this and that makes them narcissistic i said no that might make them very focused on themselves but i have to be honest if a person's being selfish but they're actually accounting for other people saying i work all the time so i don't think it's a good idea for me to have children i don't know that that's selfish yeah i think that there's it's really nuanced and when people throw this around this word around it really does an injustice to the people who are actually enduring these relationships and it leads people to brand the relationship that might actually just have normal bumps in the road as being something far worse than it really is yeah i appreciate you explaining that because i agree i have heard people say oh well he must be a narcissist like because he cheated on you like i think that's a little more complex than just someone cheating um and i think we're just quick to throw around the word sometimes which is why i love what you do is like actually educating people on the difference between someone that maybe is just like a dick to you versus someone that's actually narcissistic so let's get into the relationship aspect of like what are the key differences between a narcissistic relationship and a healthy relationship so let's start with a healthy relationship because i actually think a lot of people don't even know what one is we'll start with that as a base a healthy relationship is respectful compassionate safe you feel comfortable expressing your needs your wants and your aspirations without fear of being criticized mocked or humiliated you feel as though you have a safe place to land you feel that you your sort of if you will reality your experiences are and perceptions are respected and accounted for so in other words right now if you said hey dr romney i'm actually really hungry and if i said no alex there's no way you could be hungry that wouldn't be respecting that state it's a simple example but if somebody even said i'm bored and the other person said no there's no way you can be bored you're a ridiculous person that's not respecting another person's experience or perception so it's sort of seeing being able to appreciate you're in a relationship with a separate human being appreciate their point of view and perspective recognize you can have one separate from them know it will be respected that you are in the relationship there's a lot of back and forth that you're aware that in a relationship there's tons of give and take there's compromise that there's sacrifice but you do it knowing that there's a balance in the relationship a healthy relationship is equitable it's again it feels balanced and above all else if i had to choose one word that characterizes a healthy relationship it would be safe okay now let's contrast to an artistic relationship which is invalidating confusing inconsistent manipulative and it can be dazzling exciting um seductive intoxicating and it can be gaslighting and it can be abusive and it can be um dismissive and mocking the key to remember here if i were to say there's two words for a healthy relationship i say safe and consistent because the tricky part of a narcissistic relationship is there are good days there can even be good weeks or good months you happen to be on the same page life is going really well for the narcissistic person they get the bonus they get the promotion they get the apartment they want they get the new car they wanted so when life is going the way the narcissistic person wants they're great and you'll feel like you're something you feel not only do you feel seen and heard it's exciting and it's fun and it's sexy and it's great and the tricky part then becomes that you start messing with your own head because like the last month was good and now it's not good and they're telling me it's my fault and maybe it is my fault and so you see how in a narcissistic relationship you feel constantly off balance and consistently unsafe and you devalue yourself and you're being devalued i like how you also said that you know there can be good days for a narcissist and i think to say like you know would someone be able to recognize signs on a first date like what might a first date with a narcissist look like okay so this is where it gets tricky everybody wants to talk about red flags red flags it's a dangerous conversation these are often aren't any and then people kick themselves saying why didn't i see them i'm like why is this all your responsibility to figure this out first of all but let's talk about let me give you two scenarios of a first date to show you how different it can be first scenario you've been you've been texting and vibing and it's fun and it's sexy and you're you share pictures and like my gosh this person's so cool and they travel and i love their dog and i'm just so into this person and then the time comes for the where you're gonna meet them and they choose the restaurant and it's like a tough place to get into and they get a great table and already there they look great they're really lovely and welcoming and generous and fun and sparkly and they listen to you and you even say oh gosh dating's been hard or whatever and they're so you just feel empathized with and heard turns out like you kind of come from the same like you have common friends from school or whatever like it feels magical that is very often a first date with a narcissistic person who's charming and charismatic and well put together and looks good and sounds good and you feel heard and seen another first date with a narcissist could be a lot of those things but in there there might be sort of they're really distracted like you know so they don't make a lot of eye contact they're constantly scanning the room kind of checking their phone a lot there's a fidgetiness to them maybe they're a little bit i don't know a little bit too familiar or flirty with a server uh that you feel like that doesn't feel like a ditty behavior uh the dinner of those seems pretty good like okay there's a couple things but that's the first date is awkward you get outside and the ballet is taking 25 minutes to bring the car around for him and then he gets really snipey like oh my gosh like you guys better not have messed up my car that's a new such and such car and you know every time i come to this dump and you're like oh that's not very nice and then you know you kind of cop your head a little to the side and they say yeah that's okay i wasn't being that graceful like today we have the closest huge deal at work and you know i'm so sorry i should i i should have brought a better game and then you think oh they're aware they did that so my point is that even if they're kind of there's red flaggy things the pivots they do kind of make sense and 80 of the date was good and when 80 of the date is good and it's the first date and you're attracted to this person you're probably not going to take that 20 and say danger danger i need to run away that's really interesting yeah it does and i remember i think it was a youtube video you said there may be an initial hyper communication like did you make it home say good night good morning or there's inconsistent communication where like a flurry of text and radio silence like what what is that about the narcissist why why do they do that so i'm sure alex because you cover dating better than anyone you talked about attachment styles on um on color daddy right so attachment styles matter here and narcissistic people typically have anxious attachment styles so there's just sort of this um they kind of get a little flustered at the goodbye or they seem a little clingy at times but the problem is a lot of people who date narcissistic people have anxious attachment styles too but what we forget is a lot of narcissistic people alongside that anxious attachment have an avoidant attachment and an avoidant attachment means when somebody starts coming in too close they pull away so you're in this dance where and this is a really toxic cycle that people get into in narcissistic relationships is they start to learn that if i lean in too much this charming person who also was kind of red flaggy and concerning but also i really like them pulls away and you reach in and they pull away so you start trying to play a game and you're like okay i'm gonna play it cool i'm gonna pull back and then they start chasing and then you pull back more but you're not being authentic right what you're trying to do is pull the chase out of this narcissistic person who has this sort of attachment style that's not healthy and if you yourself have an anxious attachment style and you're sort of wanting to do that kind of gamesmanship because it feels good to be chased narcissistic people love games and dating they love it they again that's why you'll see the hot cold lots of texts and then radio silence and it's almost like you're playing this kind of sick game of chess and i think the problem is we sort of over romanticize that sort of chasey dynamic which is actually not good what we're striving for is a secure attachment right where you feel safe you feel that goodbyes mean that they'll you'll come back together that you feel comfortable in your own skin when you come back with a person you're really happy to see them narcissistic people don't have secure attachments a lot of us may not have secure attachments and so that's when this whole thing gets messy and it is a game for narcissistic folks in the game like any game gets boring after a while and if you end up sliding into a relationship with the person so you have your chase you have your back and forth it goes on for a while and then you're sort of like okay we're committed we're in a relationship we're sort of out there on instagram or we're moving in together whatever it may be it's at around that time when it becomes ultra committed probably within six months to two years after that their interest starts to drop because narcissism as a personality style is we call it novelty seeking they always like new new new new it's excitement seeking and new things are exciting so they do start getting bored with you with a person they're in a relationship with and then you may find yourself in that dance of oh i'm gonna do what i did before and i'm gonna pull back but no not so much and so the inconsistency really puts people on their back foot and it confuses people and it turns it into a game that you may not be looking to play when you date but i think that's really how it is with a lot of narcissistic folks because you're trying to figure out how do i win this charming person back over again that is thank you for explaining that because i do think that's something that i mean i even i know when i was like in college or high school like there is it's the classic chase or like we want what we can't have and so it does tiptoe on the line of like of course when you're going on a date with someone you want to not play all your cards right away and you want to you know still come up a little mysterious like i understand that but there is a there's a differentiator between healthy like playing a little hard to get and like not being like i really like you when's our next date versus like a very calculated manipulative like i'm not going to text them and i'm going to make them feel insecure and i'm like it's just a little too thought out and calculated whereas naturally as humans we're like oh maybe i should wait to text them just so that they don't like there's a different level of manipulation going on obviously with narcissists that can clearly get masked though in the beginning stages of dating as just a casual like oh my gosh he didn't text me now i like him more so obviously first dates or the first couple dates like if you're not dating narcissists they still can't be perfect but like can you explain on the contrary what would a healthy first date look like so a healthy first date could look a lot of those other you know the ways i describe that narcissistic first date that's what's so challenging i think that a healthy first date though would feel collaborative right not something that's fully happening to you it certainly doesn't feel nice if somebody says hey i'd love to meet you great you come to a date that you agree on and then it does feel good if a person says okay well i have this wonderful restaurant i know how about a 7 30 reservation on saturday and if somebody actually has a suggestion and they say is that okay with you that's already a good start like they're not saying okay you got to meet me at eight o'clock at this place and with no consideration of is this too far for you does this kind of food work for you so you want to look for that kind of collaborative sort of does this work for you you might buy them they might know you're vegetarian or something and say there's lots of vegetarian stuff on the menu so you see that there's an awareness of distance of practicality of all of that okay so there's that piece of it then it would be attentiveness a lot you know i think we can learn so much everyone talks this big mindfulness mindfulness what's mindfulness is being fully present with another human being when you're with them and not working the angles right so you're just really present with the person you're listening to them there's a back and forth one person isn't monopolizing the conversation there are gentle attempts usually at awkward humor as we often see on a first date there is obviously you know you would see also someone because of this mindfulness people will be somewhat careful on that first date and what I mean by careful is they're going to tender opinions carefully they won't come in with some sort of brazen inflammatory i don't know heaven forbid it could be anything from racist to political to something and you know that gives you a pause and then they come back with you like what are you one of those people who like everything has to be oh so careful so you want to look and see there's contempt if there's dismissiveness how do they treat other people a healthy first date would be someone who is warm but not inappropriate with a server who is appropriate with other people you might run into the person who seats you the person who may get your car the uber driver or whomever you're interacting with look for those appropriate interactions if per chance you're getting into someone getting your car with someone on a first date something i actually never recommend if you do pay attention to how they drive there's research actually showing that narcissistic people are more likely to be much much more dangerous drivers so if they drive in a way that's dangerous that would be a problem so if you're looking to see what would feel comfortable do you want to meet someplace closer to your house um do you want me to do you want me to get you a car do you want me to walk to your car whatever it may be that there's an awareness of things like of safety of comfort that there's not a boundary violation that if you've made it seem like the evening's done you've had a nice time but you want to go home you're not looking for a first date hookup that there's a respect for that and not an insistence like oh come on we've been texting for two months this isn't even really our first date not healthy but a person saying this is so nice to meet you an appropriate maybe end of the night text that you get but not 20 you're looking for appropriateness mindfulness good boundaries watching how they treat other people that they're not monopolizing the conversation that they're not saying things that could be alienating or hurtful or any of that and i mean it's pretty simple stuff yeah no i love that you touched also on like the respect aspect of like i understand that there's obviously certain situations where you go on a first date and maybe someone's so nervous that you can tell they can't stop talking and it's not out of like this grandiose behavior and they're so in love with themselves you're like calm down like you can tell the first date jitter so i think also to everyone listening it's like if you're on a date and you realize like they didn't ask me one question about myself all the way from what you said to the start of wait they picked the place now they're talking about their job and the only questions they're asking me is actually to really tie back to themselves that is not healthy obviously and it's not a partnership that you want it's called partnership for a reason it takes two but i also think there's something to be mindful of which is there is i have been on it with my now fiance where our first date was magical and it was it started out so respectful and then it's just heated up when we realized it's uncommon we had a spark and there was a connection and so i don't want people to mistake a spark and a connection versus when a narcissist is using this like glitzy glamorous lifestyle because the difference between a spark is you feel connected you feel yourself you're on fire because you're like this person has the same humor as me and we are getting along we're talking about like the same movies and same shows and artists and music versus a narcissist you can be swept off your feet but in the sense of did it really even take you to do anything other than sit there and watch them put on a show that you were essentially just watching right absolutely i mean i first thought congratulations thank you thank you but i think that what gets tricky is even the spark piece of it right because i often say it's this do you feel like you're in your body do you feel like you're showing up as your authentic self you know versus do you actually feel like you're having to put on a show right or do you feel like you can just bring your like yeah well i'm in my third job in a year it's been tough i mean nobody wants me to be getting to a date but you think like i think over time i can be much more open with this person one i mean i'm a big fan of what i call slow dating i think in this era of narcissism it's just slow way down that when we take things slowly you can learn a couple of things and it's a really great sort of narcissistic deterrent if you take things slow a lot of narcissistic people lose interest because you say hey i want to take more time before we have sex before we take a trip before we do something that feels a little too quick they may then try to gaslight you and say well slowly what the heck i don't know you don't seem that committed to this honor that slow piece because that's a common gaslight move like i guess you're not that into me if you don't want to do these things that feel like they're going too fast but i'll pathologizing you like oh you're not you don't want commitment and by being slow you can say if they're trying to push the accelerator like this this may be a sign to honor my slow approach here and then you know this may not be my person it's a hard thing to do because a lot of people feel dating is already so hard i have this person who actually wants to spend more time with me they want to do really cool stuff am i sabotaging myself and i think that the slowness is not going to be the same for everyone listen there are people who might go on seven dates in two weeks and there are people that might go on two dates in two weeks obviously seven dates in two weeks you're going to learn more about the person you're going to learn more about yourself with this person so it may not seem that out of left field that you would go on like a weekend trip after four or five weeks because you have spent a lot of time together again so much of this is honoring yourself and where this gets tricky is in people with a variety of backstories whether you've experienced complex trauma post-trauma familial abuse narcissistic abuse in your family prior abusive relationships those things can kind of scramble your signals so you don't even trust your ability to say do i feel like i'm in my body like do i feel safe what is this and this is where i always tell people please be gentle with yourselves this isn't about a gotcha like you couldn't tell they were a narcissist by the third date i often tell folks like it is not unusual for even people who know what narcissism is that got it figured out to take almost a year to figure out this is a narcissistic person because the first six to twelve weeks of a relationship with anyone can either be magical exciting or engaging because of this whole chasey thing and then you're kind of getting into more of a rhythm that feels good by the time you have enough data of unhealthy disrespectful manipulative gaslighting invalidating patterns to take to get enough data for most people to feel like i gotta go especially if you at all like the person can take one to two years and i'm only saying that here alex because i think you may have a lot of listeners who think why does this take me so long because it takes a long time even for me as a therapist if i have a narcissistic client i'm gonna be frank with you can sometimes take me three four months to fully and i'm on i'm on fast forward because i'm only i'm not dating this person i'm just paying attention to their patterns right so if it's taking me a minute it's going to take you a minute and to have that self-compassion because a lot of people don't want to leave a relationship too fast and say did i let a good one go it's a lot better to say okay i'm very clear that this is not for me i love that you're explaining to like in the beginning let's say like by your 10th date be graceful with yourself because again when when you're in this beginning phase that is also the honeymoon stage of the dating phase of just like getting to know this person and understanding so everything kind of feels still fresh and exciting and so with a narcissist that's just amplified where it feels like it's very exciting but really it's probably love by blood bombing and the seduction phase that they are completely elevating to a different level than a normal person but a normal person if they're not a narcissist they're also trying to impress you by the 10th date and they're trying to keep it spicy and so i think it's important to let people know that it is very difficult i think especially in the beginning dating phase to recognize a narcissist because naturally within normal dating you are trying to court this person and you're trying to show your best self and you're trying to be impressive to this person and you want them to like you and you want to you know show your best side of yourself so be easy on yourself if i like in a couple months you're like how did i not know right well usually the idealized phase is still with normal people we're still wearing a little makeup to bed because we're nervous we don't want to make up next you know i mean it's like you just be grateful with yourself um if someone was previously in a relationship with a narcissist is it common to feel bored dating someone who is healthy and not toxic so you bring up an interesting question which is this idea of it kind of goes in a couple of different directions right first of all there's a whole idea of trauma bonding right that a relationship is a place that is supposed to be hot and cold up and down love means chaos love means inconsistency trauma bonded cycles typically start in childhood and typically because somebody had a negating invalidating rejecting potentially narcissistic parent right but that's not always the case person might have come from a very very happy family and felt very seen and heard but then they meet someone who's really charming and charismatic and exciting and all of that and they really fall in like whoa this is actually sort of a fairy tale this is everything i wanted this is what i've been waiting for and then they and then but the hot cold up down inconsistency sort of feels like oh i guess this is what a romance is right now people who are who do have these trauma bonded cycles especially when they're from childhood it's a little less so when they start in adulthood for the first time there is this sense that sort of a steady steady steady not this but this relationship feels uninteresting and as a result there's a sense of i'm not feeling a spark maybe this isn't love i kind of i'm bored and might even say like i'm not even very nice to this person because i'm bored right they're not getting the kind of same sort of fight that they get in a narcissistic relationship and the person the person in the stable relationship is kind and nice and compromising all the things we want and the person will even say i don't get this person's so lovely so what you're describing is definitely something we do see in people who've been through these trauma bonded sorts of cycles and then it becomes really important that a person does whatever work they do whether it's traditional psychotherapy trauma therapy just sort of figuring out what this chaos means to them what does it mean when you're not chasing someone what does it mean when somebody is there and loves you you may not even trust it or you may even devalue it so there's a lot of deep diving that person has to do i hate to say it but i think steady not up and down relationships don't have a good brand i mean we don't make movies about them right if we don't have a movie about two people meet and they're really respectful and nice to each other and they're kind of nothing dramatic happens and then they fall in love and then they decide to spend their lives together and they keep going steady and who watches that movie maybe but nobody else is going to watch that they want drama they want triangulation they want infidelity they want nothing anyone wants to be cheated on but when we're entertained by relationship movies we want excitement and i think that sometimes that boundary between what we need in our real lives and what we're sort of drawn to sure watch an exciting movie about a relationship but that doesn't mean you should be in one so we watch movies about war doesn't mean we want to fight in one so i think it's the same thing is that we have gotten so many twisted messages about relationships and that can really really be pronounced for a person who's had these cycles their whole life i don't even want to call these relationships boring i think that's unfair to them stable consistent predictable secure those are the words i would use yeah and i agree with you i think they've gotten a bad reputation but i also think again like everyone listening there is a difference where i have in the past met such an incredible guy or many guys that were great and i did find it boring but because there wasn't a spark there where i was whether i wasn't sexually attracted to them or i didn't feel spark when we kissed like that is the differentiator between then my relationship by now is the healthiest relationship i've ever been in and of course there's moments of push and pull and compromise and of course we argue it's a relationship that would be crazy if we didn't argue but the point is that there's a consistency of respect and there's a consistency of who we are when we show up to the relationship i don't wake up one day and look at my partner like who are you wait like you're acting completely like so there's stable in the sense that you don't have constantly a pit in your stomach and you don't constantly wonder who you're going to get that day that you're dating and it's that there is like something so romantic about being able to then explore all different parts of life with someone that you actually know is solid and respects you and there is there is a bond between you that is not based off of the craziness of a fight and we get back together and we get back together because actually how do you feel when you're alone at night and you're sleeping like you're just thinking about your next move and your next text and the next fight so it's actually way more fun to have a stable relationship because even when you do argue it's healthy arguing it's you want to get to the bottom and come back together where toxic arguing is like where are we going with this we're just getting off by it just to get off on it and we become addicted to something that does nothing but deteriorate our self-worth and our self-esteem right and it's a toxic cycle so i agree it's like stable is the word but even stable relationships aren't stable times you go through shit but it feels better and it doesn't feel so life or death and it doesn't feel like you are no longer a whole human being and it's chipping away at you every fight that you have that's right and it takes a minute to get there because like i said we do that kind of volatility really really does get associated and kind of stuck with this idea of love so there's a whole process of separating out that this kind of stability is so it's so good and listen there are other things to consider you know many many i'm a mom but my kids are teens now what kind of parent would this person be right so this volatility may be sexy and bad but do you want this coming at your child if they spill a glass of milk really i mean if you don't want kids that may not be that conversation you can be pets you want this person screaming at your dog or your pet no and so it's really asking yourself that if you can sort of extend that out but there is also to alex the other struggle that many people go into dating not valuing themselves not you know not holding a mouth he talks about standards you're not holding those standards for themselves because they don't think they deserve them they don't think they almost deserve a healthy respectful relationship and there's a sort of a risk of well maybe this is as good as it gets this is how i grew up there's this maybe this is all it is and if i don't go along with this then maybe i will be alone forever and i gotta tell you having worked with people who survived 20 30 40 50 60 year narcissistic relationships most of them would say alone forever would have been so much better than having endured this i couldn't agree more maybe also to help because we're talking you know dating and it's a little hard to be like is this person narcissistic like maybe they had a bad day like i don't know let's talk about fighting what do fights look like in a narcissistic relationship oh when you asked me this question this morning i was preparing a deck for a seminar during tomorrow i was exactly on this question oh beautiful i'm set up for this okay so in a healthy argument and i'm going to tell you another interesting thing about the research on relationships is arguments actually mean a relationship is good because it means you have enough skin in the game to get into it with someone when a relationship is good is sort of dead on the vine you're like i actually don't care you'll go go go sleep with someone else like i'm good like just not don't don't be here that's a relationship that's done but to argue with something means that there's again there's a goal you can perceive now all that said in a healthy argument you use i statements it's not you never start a sentence with you because that's always going to be accusatory right so ideally at least 90% of your sentence i feel angry i feel hurt i feel unseen i feel frustrated you know and using feel statements too because that is sort of taking ownership for your experience in it never ever ever using disparaging verbally abusive language you're a b word you're an effing a you know all of that you don't want any of that kind of obscenity kind of thrown at someone because it is abusive you know obscenities during an argument actually do qualify as that now some people say listen that's a language we bandy about in our relationship okay but then there's it's going to get leveled up to obscenities that you don't ordinarily account for in a relationship so there's that piece of it too i would say obviously anything that even is in the neighborhood of threat and what i mean by threat is not that they're going to pull out a weapon though that could happen but it's also things like you know i'm going to go harm myself i'm going to start i'm leaving here and i'm not coming back i am going to make a mess of your life i'm going to tell your family the truth about you i'm going to share whatever secret you share with other people there's a menace that's put out there even if they don't act on it or they don't harm themselves or they don't harm you know they don't share your secrets with others that they keep bringing out that men it's like i wonder what your boss would think about if they knew da da da and so it's almost like they've always got this collateral intel on you that they are implying that they'd be willing to use um is a it's bringing back old grudges i can't 10 years ago you did this 15 years ago you did that six months ago you did that so when it's constantly cycling back to these old arguments that's unhealthy deflection is unhealthy okay so i see we're going to talk about me working late let's talk about two years ago at your friend's engagement party when you didn't call me back well no actually we're talking about the working late schedule and how that threw off our house guests so we can file that away but that constantly trying to pull you off into these other directions to throw you off the course gaslighting is not healthy telling you that never happened i never said that when they did and then they treat you as you're insane there's something wrong with you you're disturbed um you need help all that bad bad arguments now healthy arguing is the i the i i i feel i i am you communicate from the perspective of i you let them speak without interrupting you do not roll your eyes you face them while you talk you do not look away they do not talk at your back you are paying attention to them eye contact as they're talking to you so there is that form of there is that place of connection if you feel it's escalating to a point where you're saying i'm having trouble actually hearing this and processing this give yourself say i'm not i don't want to never storm out never slam the door but say i need a minute i'm just gonna step outside for a second i just need to i need to catch myself i don't want to say something hurtful so like find how find those places where you can regulate but it is about holding space taking ownership taking responsibility when you need to not always but with a narcissist a healthy argument is literally impossible if you start taking ownership they're gonna say yeah everything's your fault so you've kind of painted yourself into a corner if they start gaslighting you i don't think there's a healthy direction you can go into except to disengage so healthy arguments are actually quite great like it's really a sense of and i'm not saying you're being nice to each other you're doing things like still facing you but i am having a really hard time with what you're saying how can you have screwed up this holiday i just said you and then because we're not going to be perfect and they'll say how did i screw up this holiday and say we talked 17 times about how this christmas we were going to blah blah and we even made the reservations i am so confused by this this was really important to me you're taking ownership this was important this wasn't okay but you're exasperated it's showing on your face i'm not saying you need to look like you're totally composed the whole time you're going to look exasperated you might sometimes make these statements if you can get 80 percent of it right you're doing well but it is not possible to have healthy conflict with a narcissistic person it's just not possible and so people end up blaming themselves saying i did everything you said i used the i statements i took a second to breathe i kept facing them and it didn't work i'm like this is not gonna work there so right right no i also love how you said like of course when you're in a healthy dynamic and stable relationship you're gonna argue but if you're also seeing this pattern like someone listening like do you ever feel like you leave an argument and you felt like you both took some ownership or is it always on you are you always the one that did something wrong and you like you are the problem like then you're not in a partnership that that person is allowing you and themselves to own what you ever whenever there's an argument like so you can take some ownership usually in it especially in a partnership so you can take some ownership and even if you don't want to like i just find like there's always something of trying to understand your partner trying like there's compromise there's having like an understanding and empathy for them if they fucked up or whatever it is but with a narcissist it feels like every single time the person in the narcissistic relationship is just gonna feel like i guess it is my fault or i and you just and because they want to keep chipping away at you and then you just start to become like not your full self and in every argument you lose a little bit more of yourself if you keep believing what they are saying about you everything is my fault maybe i am not good maybe i am a bad partner maybe i don't give him enough attention and it's like whoa hold on you just came to him because he cheated how are you the one at fault you know what i mean you brought up gaslighting and that obviously is a word that a lot of people are using these days and if you are in an argument let's say with a narcissist and they are gaslighting you because i can imagine so many of my listeners are women who may be in a relationship with a narcissist and they're like i don't know how to handle this like what is the best way to respond you mentioned disengaging but can you talk a little bit more about that what that means it looks like so you're never going to win with a gaslighting person head on you're not because it's a tactic for them right and they're not it's not a let me go backwards a minute if someone's lying to you and all they're doing is lying to you you may actually be able to get them on the same page as you because not all lies are malevolent or you know are harmful somebody might say to someone hey you said you were gonna i don't know you were going to um get this thing done by saturday i never said that and then you pick up your phone say here's the text that's why i didn't make another arrangement and they'll say oh my gosh i totally forgot that text that was irresponsible so they denied it at first that first thing they said i never said i'd help you on saturday and then you go into the text and you show them the evidence and they don't lose it on you that's not gaslighting that might literally be we do this to people all the time they're saying didn't you get my email i never got your email you go to your inbox i didn't get your email i'm so sorry right but we immediately take ownership we apologize and we'll say i'm so sorry i did not check i should have checked first when that happens that's not gaslighting right that is sort of the normal mind slippages we have and you immediately take ownership when it's brought up or even if you don't have the evidence email or text and someone says hey i sent you an email say you know i don't remember getting it but you said you did so i'm sure it's in here somewhere so you don't even go look for it but you say it's you're telling you you did this so it's possible i'm not saying no you didn't because i don't remember seeing it so those are not gaslighting situations and many times not many sometimes when you show a liar the evidence they'll say i didn't know you caught me or listen i'm that was gross of me to lie about that i was really anxious about i thought you i thought you'd really mad at me i thought you'd wake up with me or whatever they'll give you the reason and they'll say that wasn't okay i did lie and i shouldn't have and then you decide what you want to do with that right gaslighting whole different game so when a person gaslights that never happened i never said that you know and then you say but you did and here it is and then you show them the text they say wowie wow so now our relationship is the supreme court is that what it is you want me to go dig up all the other evidence on you like great i've done paranoid before i'm not doing this again now you're dealing with this onslaught of you're in a crazy person because you showed them a text now you're saying no no no listen it's not that i'm trying to be like gotcha i just i want us to communicate now the whole thing's deteriorated because you were trying to get this thing worked out for saturday and now you're having an argument about how you're a paranoid crazy person right doesn't feel good if at that point you turn to the person and say hey you know what when you do this you're gaslighting me don't they won't say well golly gee i never meant to do that i don't want to no they're gonna say oh is that oh is that what you're doing you're watching videos did you learn that on instagram is that where you learned that oh yeah i'm so abusive no one could date you you are a ridiculous person i feel like a babysitter not a boyfriend so now you're like that did that made things worse so really it's so simple you'd never call out a gaslighter so what do you do instead number one you gotta register i'm dealing with a gaslighter now one gaslight does not a narcissist make one gaslight does not a gaslighter make people might do things again to save face to get out of a situation the really noxious part of gaslighting though isn't the denying the thing happened it's the going after you that part is hard if you experience that even two or three times you get a problem and you've got to decide what you want to do with that problem because i've rarely seen chronic gaslighting improve in a person and when they get feedback they shout at the other person so there's really no getting anywhere with them it's how it's how that person maintains their sense of identity i'm great you're not so you're gonna do whatever you the narcissist is gonna do whatever they need to do to protect that sense of greatness so i do think that with gaslighting there isn't much you can do and what happens sadly is your sense of reality starts to erode and the only thing that often sets the ship straight for people who are being gaslighted is a if there's a witness right so somebody watches it b they come into therapy the amount of times i've just sat and read people's old text messages my client will say yeah no you say that you were gaslighted you know that they come in for confirmation or you have a friend who'll say you're being gaslighted it can feel good to have that confirmation but it still feels devastating that not only is it happening in your relationship there really isn't a lot you can do so by disengage i do mean at those times if it's very clear you're being gaslighted very clear that that's a point where you're like okay for you this conversation is largely done now what your bigger problem now is to figure out a solution for saturday whatever that thing was or whatever don't waste your time there will be waves and waves of grief of oh my god i'm in a relationship with a gaslighter i might be in a relationship with a narcissist what am i gonna do and i gotta move the boxes on saturday but in that moment getting into it is just going to make it worse and then it's really about weighing out what does this mean but my i know a lot of people can't just snap out of relationships obviously it's an early dating relationship pay attention i mean if you can get out without too much damage you don't have kids you're not living together you're not married get out but if you've been in it for a long time a lot of people don't have that option and then it's that grief of realizing i you know how am i gonna i've been doing this for years really what's the path forward to the degrees early in the relationship this really really needs to be a wake-up call it is not sustainable or tenable to have a meaningful deep healthy close relationship with somebody who is a gaslighter it's just simply not you can have a relationship but it's just not going to be deep it's not going to be safe and it's not going to be trustworthy even hearing you when you were giving an example of what it would sound like if someone was coming at you and gaslighting you like it's like triggering to even hear of like because it's such a manipulation and distortion of your reality in the moment and you're and you're so taken off guard because again they will weaponize their communication of you're talking about one thing and again they you're like well no you texted me this and then they spin it back on you somehow and then when you were somehow bringing something that they did that hurt you now listen it's your fault and so i just feel so bad for people that get into these dynamics because every fight then again ships away at your self-esteem because you're constantly not being able to hold your reality as a reality because they're taking away from you and they're making you feel it almost can drive you insane and crazy where you're like wait what like how is this now my fault and so and then you can just keep going and usually i feel like if you get into that cycle and you don't disengage you can just start to really become depleted but then again it almost weirdly becomes i don't want to say intoxicating but the more that you linger and you allow it to continue to distort your reality and that becomes normal it's so so difficult to get out of that cycle because your your self-worth is at an all-time low and and then as we know with narcissists then they'll pick you back up to then drop you back down and and you don't have an ability to like regulate your own ability to know your reality and your worth it's all kind of like predicated on what they're feeling that day and it's it's sick i mean can you just i know we've talked about this before but anyone that's new listening here like what types of people attract a narcissist i hate saying attracts because it's not their fault but like just someone that may tend to happen to get into a relationship with one yeah your timing is so great i have this healing program for people healing from narcissistic abuse and people want to check it out they can yes please dive but this month in our program we've been talking about is literally on this issue of what are the backstories and vulnerabilities that make you vulnerable these relationships so here's the thing when i if i were to tell you all the things that make a person if you will vulnerable to a narcissistic person at the end of the day everybody on the planet really it is because you've got you've got one side of the story which is our backstories which could be anything from coming from a narcissistically abusive family having a history of trauma coming from a happy family being a rescuer being a forgiver being very positive uh being in a time of transition you can move to a new city being in a rush i have to have a baby all of these things make you vulnerable to a narcissistic relationship why because they get you stuck the getting in alex we're all vulnerable you know we're not as much as charismatic people scare the hell out of me i think we're not ever going to get to the era where people like stay away from turning charismatic people right it's just not going to happen it's considered a really valuable quality and so it's almost the pay attention so what happens is all these backstories we have these things about us all of us are attracted to them it's this stuff that gets stuck in them and the stuck is bigger problem than the attracted if that makes sense right attracted attracted right i'm attracted to you i've met you i spent an hour with you ew i'm out okay fine but if you're making excuses and you're trying to fix things you're trying to rescue them and keep forgiving them and your own wounds and your own trauma bonds are at play that's the stuff that means you're not going to see the red flags or you're not going to see the warning signs or you're going to make excuses for them right so it's a stuckness thing we also have to account for personality there's interesting research out there by folks like sandra brown and stuff we talk about this idea of agreeableness now an agreeable personality is a personality of somebody who's empathic modest humble kind helpful follows the rules i've taken the test i'm a very agreeable person so what's the problem i love that i wish i could just create a whole world full of agreeable people never gonna happen in fact the opposite of agreeableness is antagonism which is narcissism the antagonistic people are narcissistic people love agreeable people because they can get away with so much and agreeable people are so sweet like wow you're so smart you're amazing you're so cool like that that's what an agreeable person does sweet people right and so that personality is that it's not that the narcissistic person's like let me find all the agreeable people in the room but when they find someone who not only are they attracted to for whatever reason but they also know they can shape them agreeable people are vulnerable to that to being shaped in that way so those are the things that make us sort of vulnerable to these relationships but the other thing that makes us vulnerable is we're told charm charisma confidence success are all the most important things right you have you know this how it's better than i do how many times have people like what's on your list what's your checklist what are you looking for and i'm like everything on this checklist is not good like i need your checklist to be respect compassion kindness mutuality holding space um that's what i need your checklist to be when the checklist is likes to hike uh went to a certain university has a certain job makes a certain amount of money i'm like oh my gosh you're you this is i'm never gonna be out of a job and this is just gonna keep going right i mean i'm always imagining like agreeable people tinder like what would that look like like kind of just helping people it's not so hot and just nice i'm like how can i be respectful of your boundary like i want to start agreeable people tinder i'm telling you now and that no one would be hooking up because i want to be so respectful we're gonna look online soon and dr romany be like i want to do dating app you have to number one have at some point in your life been in therapy you have to be constantly organized to enter honestly that is like actually wow alex you're the one can you imagine launch an empire it's all you let's do that make me send me a check in results i will i will i will you know that quick but is that like can you imagine if you had a dating app where only people with agreeable score agreeableness scores over a certain level were together it would actually be kind of great because those people if an agreeable person finds agreeable they're not gonna have a lot of money because agreeable people actually make less money but my goodness they're just gonna be good to each other and kind and loving and sweet and it's actually harder agreeable men have a harder go of it because they do make less money they're often minimized for emotionality or being a sucker because they're being nice to everyone but they're just good they're good men they're good people there are a lot of good men and good people out there and they're agreeable and so all of that because the charm the charisma we're all attracted to them so i don't even know what they're attracted to us so go to the next level the thing they're attracted to in us is could be things like how we look or you know physical our physical attractiveness our status that we bring to the relationship did you go to a fancy university do you have a big job you have a lot of money did your family have a lot of money do you live in a cool part of town do you have contacts that are cool are you like there's something that draws them to you that is that brings us things like i said status and all of that and that they get they're getting some some juice from it could be a person who's a lot older who stakes out a much younger partner that they know they can dominate and control and that would look good to the world um if somebody might be having a moment of fame whatever it is when a narcissistic person is sort of seeking someone out it's usually on the basis of status yeah i'm just curious and you don't have to answer this but did you have anyone because obviously you're such an expert on this like did you have anyone like very close to you in your life at some point that was a narcissist girl look for family romantic relationships workplace relationships friendships pick a category you know what's fascinating about it too people is that why you got into it i was like what's so bizarre is when i first got into it it was like a research issue and then i was had a private practice and i never was connecting my experience to theirs so i actually find that disconnect it wasn't like i am going i was hurt by someone i have to tell you it wasn't until ways down the road and i was in a particularly narcissistic relationship that it finally dawned on me like ooh this is wait a minute let's connect you back to this and it was almost like the final puzzle piece it was like tetris and the whole thing collapsed and i'm like now i get it but it's been in so many areas of my life and they still are like someone's like oh dr romany you must not have any narcissistic relationships and you're like hell i don't lot and i mean some for cultural reasons i can't remove these people from my life or familial reasons um some i gotta work with them in some i don't know it's sort of like i am able to do some cherry picking and saying like i'm not gonna share my i'm not gonna share my confidences with this person i'm definitely not gonna go on vacation with this person but i think i could probably have a civil conversation with them for an hour i don't particularly like them but it's not like i can't function and i have to function with them because they're like a friend's partner or they're like a friend of a friend or you know someone someone is kind of like a workplace affiliation so i have a lot of these people in my life still hurt me and i but i know i can't get out and when i'm hurt as i will tell anyone who is in a narcissistic relationship you've got to be kind with yourself i mean it's something where i you have to remind yourself i recently had such an experience i have to say okay romany you just went through it you know what this is do what you tell them to do and it might be go to sleep early it might be read something i want to read it might be just cry it out it doesn't feel good there's a lot of grief and that can be really profound if it's a family member or an old old friend or a sibling certainly if it's a long-term partner but um but any of these relationships can be contaminated i can tell you for example how much is a long-term friend like we've been friends since junior high and now it's clear this person's really narcissistic but we've been friends since junior high they feel like a keeper of my history i don't know i'm ready to sort of let this person go but my gosh they're not nice to me yeah i appreciate you sharing that because and maybe we can even do another episode at one point on like one having it made me think of like if your boss is narcissistic and it's a huge job that you have you obviously have to navigate having someone that you have to report to that's narcissistic and then also i think having narcissistic parents is something that we could do a whole series on but my last question for today i think is like aside from just romantic relationships someone that's listening that is really relating to you right now like i have a lot of relationships in my life that i'm realizing are yes bordering narcissism and i i i don't really know how to begin to even like navigating boundaries and how to can't cut the boy out of my life like how do i alleviate a little bit of the pain that i'm feeling from this person like what advice do you have yeah so a couple things i mean there are first of all know what it is it's not it's not the gotcha like i need to know is this person a narcissist actually no you don't if you're feeling invalidated manipulated gaslighted not seen not heard and really frankly in your body like i feel off balance after i spend time with this person i don't feel good about myself i feel uncomfortable not saying that they're narcissistic cystic per se but they may really be an unhealthy person for you pay attention to that just like if somebody put like a contaminated drink of something in front of you like i don't know that i trust that i'm not going to drink it it's the same thing with people so number one to be aware that it's not about the i need to know this person's this thing no you don't you already know that this doesn't feel good okay but so now you have to you have to have interactions and you have to have encounters with this person is first of all if you are starting to suspect that this is who this person is and you do need to have an encounter with them prepare for it like you almost like sit in the car on the elevator on the way up whatever it is you sit there and you think okay we're going in i've got to stay focused i cannot get into the i can't get into the whole gaslighting you know all that in fact i often give people technique we might have even talked about this in our first conversation together i say don't go deep if you get into it with them don't defend yourself don't explain yourself don't engage with them and don't personalize it it's not about you it's what they do to everyone but then you know like okay they start going in i'm not getting into this with them so you prepare like i know what i'm getting into i'm going to be mindful i'm going to be on my game but i'm not going to let myself get sucked into this after these kinds of encounters you don't feel good right so after the encounter is done you may find yourself then feeling wrung out and depleted and your bandwidth is shot so do something like say to yourself okay i can't just walk right back into the office i shouldn't take a high stakes meeting right now i might need to maybe take a drive or take a run or take a nap or talk to a friend or call my therapist whatever it is you do at a time like i've been totally stretched too thin in fact i even said told clients of mine if you can get the time with me if you are going to have a really narcissistic thing happen try to schedule me for within the hours after that i can help to process it it's not always possible for everyone i get that but do something afterwards you need to recognize that you just went through something and your nervous system needs to come down those sort of bookended approach can really really matter another thing is surround yourself with good people having social support is such a hedge against the harm that these relationships can do to us when you have your sane people and you have your healthy people and here's what's so interesting to me about narcissistic abuse people say well maybe the person's just depressed because they're in a bad relationship what i see with folks who go through these relationships is they can actually be laughing and having a wonderful time when they're with healthy people but it's only with that narcissistic person that they're like this a depressed person would actually be having a hard time all around if there's a difference and so i think that when you have good people you feel seen you feel heard you feel valued there will be grief that it's not happening in this other relationship but these other healthy spaces can buttress you can help you feel stronger and healthy so cultivating those because it's very easy to become isolated and feel ashamed if you have narcissistic relationships cultivating those other spaces can really really be so important in terms of having a hedge against this and again that not personalizing at heart is big this is really them it's not you this is how they are with everybody they do a number on everyone it's their stuff they have the option to work on it if they choose not to be their emotional support animal you do not need to be their punching bag that is so helpful because i love also how you just said like taking a minute before you see that person that you know again you don't have to be like they are narcissistic and like they make you feel really bad about yourself and you somehow feel like oh my god i spiral every time i'm with them i'm just defending myself and it's like if that's the case take a minute before you go into that room and also i love that you say don't go deep don't get into the weeds don't let them pull things out of you that in the minute you're like wait i didn't want to talk about this sometimes you can just be silent and just nod your head and let them just spiral but don't use your energy because actually your energy fuels them even more and then it just elevates so you trying to keep it like my therapist always said the calmer you are is always better especially when you're dealing with someone the titan you just stay steady and calm and one but i'll say an aside to that though i totally get to stay calm one of the struggles people have though they'll say i stay calm and the narcissistic person gets really worked up right they don't like when you're calm and they're frothed up because now they're the ones who look like they're all over the map that's not a good look remember narcissistic people are about perfection that's why in dating it's so tricky because they want you to be perfect they want the relationship to be perfect everything has to be perfect perfect perfect so if they're screaming at you that's not perfect they're trying to get you to get into it with them so you look as unhinged as they do right when you don't do that and you're staying calm a lot of people will say they start coming for me they start saying terrible things and they'll say the common one's like oh is that your little calm voice is it did you learn that from your therapist and you know it's that kind of dismissive contempt that sometimes people feel like this is almost making it worse they're saying meaner things to me i always tell folks if you can get over that kind of tidal wave of them getting meaner then at some point they're gonna get bored you're not giving them the stuff the juice the supply and then they're gonna sort of be like so they but that could take months or even years to get to and it's hard and i once had a friend say to me she said you know dr romany it's tough for me because you're telling me i sometimes i feel like this doesn't feel good to not actually stand up to this person i'm a stand up to this person kind of person and you feel going calm or quiet or disengaging is not your authentic self go ahead and get in there but recognize this is going to be a cage match like this is going to be the fight of your life if you're up for that then i don't i'm not i don't want anyone to feel like i have to cease being myself which you kind of do if you want to survive one of these relationships some people happen to be built for a fight even some agreeable people it's pretty rare but some people are built for a fight they're scrappy and there's nothing wrong with that so they feel like i'm not holding back i said yeah but it's gonna be a storm so i say things like make sure there's no kids around it's really overwhelming for children to see this make sure you're not like messing up someone's wedding or party but that you know not everyone can do this and so i think staying calm is great but it can escalate you have to be prepared totally no and i appreciate you explaining that because i would be the type of person i was like i can't be calm and i want to just go at them but again just reminding yourself that you are very sane and you have empathy and you have emotions and you have like an understanding of self-awareness and so when you're fighting with someone that doesn't have that you eventually sure you're going for five minutes you're fighting you're fighting eventually you are like we're not getting anywhere and i'm like the narcissist is like oh exactly let's keep it going let's keep not going anywhere i'll stay here for 20 fucking hours because it's like they're basically like verbally masturbating on you they're getting off to this this is like this is so exciting to them where then a sane person starts like hold on hold on like now we're not getting anywhere exactly so go in and do your fight but don't maybe have any expectations of clarity or closure other than for yourself no no no in fact you're a masturbation kind of people there's something i always tell people what they're doing is baiting they're trying to bait you into a fight they're masturbators yes yes there we go i love it i love it if i ever do it i'll send you your check seriously dr rami thank you so much it's always such a pleasure talking with you and i think it's always great to just have these conversations because one episode like i said earlier it's not enough this is a constant battle that people are in and sometimes people need to just be reminded that this is happening to a lot of people you're not alone there are ways to get out of it but just starting the conversation is helpful to recognize like you could be in a narcissistic relationship you deserve better than that but we're also not going to negate the fact that it is really fucking hard and we're here for you and we will keep talking about it so thank you so much for coming on this was again just a pleasure