Human Learning Systems: a new paradigm for public services with Toby Lowe

What if the obsession with tracking KPIs is actually preventing public services from delivering real outcomes?In this episode, Joe sits down with Toby Lowe, a leading academic and steward of the Human Learning Systems movement. Toby explains why the traditional model of setting targets and performance managing for outcomes is fundamentally broken, and how a Human Learning Systems approach can reshape public services around trust, complexity and continuous improvement.Drawing on decades of research and his own early frustrations as an arts charity chief executive, Toby argues that using outcomes as performance targets inevitably leads to data manipulation and systemic gaming rather than genuine impact. He shares striking examples from the VW Dieselgate scandal to an £80 million public service contract in Plymouth with zero KPIs to show how shifting the focus from "delivery" to "learning relationships" can drastically improve citizens' lives, even reducing avoidable deaths. This is a deep dive into complexity science, the libertarian roots of modern management theory, and how leaders can liberate their teams to do the work that actually matters.In this conversation, we explore:Why 40 years of research proves that outcomes-based performance management universally leads to data gaming and lyingThe moment of frustration in youth criminal justice that turned Toby away from traditional outcomes frameworksThe VW Dieselgate scandal and the inherent danger of relying on proxy measuresWhy an obesity systems map proves that governments cannot "deliver" complex outcomes aloneThe libertarian origins of Public Choice Theory and how James Buchanan sought to delegitimise the welfare stateHow to build an alternative management paradigm centred on mastery, autonomy, and purposeHow the Plymouth Alliance eliminated KPIs entirely and slashed avoidable deaths over a decadeWhy data becomes more important, not less, in a Human Learning Systems approachHow Liverpool Combined Authority broke a low-trust cycle to transition into commissioning for learningToby's secret life as a hobbyist DJ and the exact complexity book he recommends mostThis episode is especially relevant for:Public sector leaders, commissioners, and chief executivesLocal government directors and policy professionalsSystems-change practitioners and complexity theoristsService designers and voluntary sector managers trying to solve complex human problemsStay connected:Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badmanRead the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.comMaster the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk