In the Sandbox - Season 3 : Episode 2 | Kathi McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck

Hosts Matt Rawle and Rachel Billups interview leadership consultant Kathi McShane and Rabbi Elan Babchuck about their partnership, formed after an Ashoka gathering and later co-leading classes for the Changemaker initiative. Drawing on their book and Walter Brueggemann, they define “empire” as a coercive, control-oriented pyramid culture that leaders and organizations internalize and revert to under stress. They discuss markers of getting “sucked into empire,” including making leaders the hub, prioritizing metrics over people, and hustle culture’s paradox of productivity, which dehumanizes teams and drives burnout. Sabbath is presented as an antidote that redistributes agency and trust, with Elan sharing how a serious accident and recovery led him to keep Shabbat. They explore risks of “leaving Egypt” (loss of stability), the myth of scarcity, grief as a clarifier of values, and leadership that shares power by prioritizing wellbeing over output. 00:00 Meet the Guests 02:00 How They Connected 06:07 Defining Empire 08:53 Signs of Empire Thinking 11:28 Hustle Culture Trap 14:23 Sabbath as Antidote 17:13 Shabbat Saved My Life 20:52 Risk of Leaving Egypt 23:32 Scarcity Mindset vs Faith 26:35 Grief in Change 29:02 Grief Fuels Creation 29:54 Grieving Well Matters 31:21 From Me to We 32:19 You Are the System 36:18 Leader Productivity Trap 39:01 Crossing the Jordan Signs 40:36 Footsteps in the Sand 43:30 Lightning Round Fun 49:06 Where to Find Them 50:53 Closing Prayer and Farewell