Ina Garten

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Well, hello everyone. I'm very excited for this episode of Good Hang. I'm Amy Poehler and joining me today is Aina Garten. Aina is just a delight. And we are going to talk about so many fun things.

We're going to talk about her TV show podcast Be My Guest. We're going to talk about the best way to cook carrots. We're going to talk about enriched uranium. And she arrives with the best gift I've received yet and the first gift I've received. So I can't wait to show you that.

But before we get started, we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest and has a question for them. And we have a real humdinger on this one. I mean, just a comedic genius. Everybody's fave. I mean, what hasn't she done?

Emmys, TV, movies, just a social activist. She's in her garden. She's protecting herself from the sun. She's wearing a giant hat. Her name is Julia Louis Dreyfus.

JLD. This episode is presented to you by Walmart. I'd like to say that I'm a pretty good gift-giver. And for me, it's about making the extra effort to find the perfect gift. Walmart has the top brands we all love in one place.

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Who knew? Go to walmart.com or download the app to get all your gifts this season. Your hat looks great. Whoa. I don't know what else to do.

I mean, look, at this point, we should hats whatever, scarves, whatever. Yes. Barb's hats. Oh my God, you're the best for getting on and doing this. Hi, friend.

Hi, my friend. I'm so happy to see you. I'm so happy to see you too. And I was just thinking about the last time we saw each other, which was getting our hair colored. Yeah, at the salon.

At the salon, where all the ladies go to meet. Are you in California or? I'm in California. I'm in Santa Barbara, California. And it's this hat.

It is a very California hat. It is actually. But I do, in fact, this isn't bullshit. I actually do wear this hat all the time, because I'm conscious of getting too much sun. You know what?

I was just telling someone that my dermatologist told me, no more sun. You're done with sun the end, period. Yeah. And are you listening to your dermatologist? I'm finally, sadly, I've known this for many years, but I need to talk to you about, and all the women listening, about full sun shirts.

I know everything. I can't wait. I knew you would. I have so much information to you. First of all, get this hat.

Number one. I knew you would. And I so appreciate it, because first of all, baby, you look incredible. Well, buddy, looks better than Jay. All the filters that are on this computer, thank you as well.

You at one point, you should do that zoom thing, where you just get sun, you put sunglasses on yourself, and then you turn into a cat, and then the background turns into a beach. I wish I knew how to do that. Well, we're talking to Ina Garden today. Lucky you. And you know what?

Before I even get into that, congratulations on your podcast. And congratulations on your podcast. Thank you. Just two ladies having a podcast. Welcome to show news.

Where did you first meet Ina? I'm a podcast. You became part, you became friends after the pod? Correct. Like real proper friends.

Oh, cool. How did that happen? I don't know. I just feel like she's, have you ever met her? No.

Never met her. Oh, well, you're going to just have the best conversation, because she's as, she's exactly what you think. She's completely authentic. She's very kind. She's obviously very intelligent.

She's hilarious. She's just got a great attitude. She's incredibly cheerful. FYI, that's a question you need to ask her. OK.

Why are you so cheerful? And say it that aggressively. I mean, I actually mean that. I don't mean it sarcastically, although it counted it. But I mean, like seriously, why are you so cheerful?

And also what puts you in a bad mood? I'd like to know what really puts Ina bad mood. It's so interesting to say that, because like, in doing research on her and, you know, like, she has this, you know, she talks about it in her book, like a decision she makes to decide to enjoy life. She just like kind of, you know, a lot of it is meaning Jeffrey. A lot.

Yeah. And him saying, you know, I'm going to give you a safe container in which to decide, you know, what kind of life you want to live. And we're going to find joy in our lives. But she really seems like she's a kind of person to make a decision and makes a decision every day. Yeah.

I think she does. She's very intentional that way. And she's a hard worker. I mean, she's, I don't know if she calls herself a workaholic, but she works hard. She likes to work.

And that's reflected in the work that she does. And speaking of which, this is, I have another question for her that I'd like you to ask her. Yes, please. And maybe afterwards. About some protection.

No, no. Yes, definitely call me. OK. At the wearing all day long, you're sleeping in it. But I'm in my kitchen.

And the reason I'm in my kitchen is because it's a cooking question. Oh, I just want to point out for people who are listening, but not watching a gorgeous bowl of lemons behind you. Just a gorgeous bowl. An extraordinary segue. Any color because the dish that I created was a lemon dish.

Yes. And I made a lemon sorbet, which I'm going to show you. Bragg. Yeah. Or going into Julia's refrigerator right now.

She made a sorbet in a lemon. OK, so listeners, this is a gorgeous sorbet that is in a lemon. Rhine, is it peeled? On the lemon dish. It's in the, shall we say, the glumming cup.

The lemming cup. The casing of a lemon. OK, she made the sorbet. And then she scooped out the lemon and she put it back in. So now the lemon serves as a dish.

Correct. And so the sorbet is delicious. Looks incredible. I made it with lemon, water, and sugar. And lemon zest.

But here's the issue. It's very icy and it's not creamy. Ah, I see. So the question, I don't know if you cook any ginger. I do.

I love to cook. And I want to talk to Ina about it because I was late to cooking. Very late. By the way, all of her books are good for you because they're so easy that it's not crazy complicated and delicious, delicious recipes. But anyway, I need to know what to add to this.

I'm guessing it's some sort of a binder of some sort that I can add to this to give it more of a creamier sorbet texture versus what I've got. Which, by the way, is totally delicious. But you can see, it sort of breaks off. I find ice cream and sorbet to be very hard to make very hard to make well. I got noose free.

This is delicious. Maybe don't ask for anything. Yeah, maybe it's perfect. But I wouldn't like no. I really would.

OK, so I'm going to ask her about the sorbet. I'm going to ask her about her positive attitude. And I will just say, and this is an obvious question, but now that you are friends and you hang out, have you and Brad gone to dinner with Ina and Jeffrey? Yes. Great.

And two very successful long marriages, both of you. You know how I feel about you and your husband, Brad Hall. Truly couple goals, both of you. Just. Oh, that's so nice.

You know, you know, there's not always a lot of couples that you want to hang with. That's true. That's true. It's usually one or the other. Yeah, it's true.

We have dinner plans tonight with a couple. Let's just say I'm thinking of the way right now to get out of it. Yeah. Yeah, you could just say you were wearing a hat. And I was wearing a hat.

I got to take too tight. I ate too much sorbet. I'm sick. That'll work. OK, so I'm going to ask Ina about her attitude, sorbet, and what puts her in a bad mood.

I'd really like to know what puts her in a bad mood. I hope she'll answer it honest. I know I wonder. I mean, truly, what is so interesting about her is her success came late in life. Yeah.

FYI, she worked in the White House in nuclear energy, as I recall. Dang. What a life indeed. So I end for talking to her. And tell her I said hi.

I will. Call me later, and I'll give you a bunch of sunscreen tips, including clothing and products for your face. I've got to get the whole thing. I've got good screen that doesn't turn your face white, too. OK, I always use sunscreen.

But I think I'm at a point now where I have to wear the full shirt, which I know, god, it just feels like everything fun is taken away. That's the attitude, Amy. Except for Sorbet. Except for Sorbet. How are that?

How are that? How are we going out of this funk, if you can? Do you ever feel like everything fun is taken away? Anyway, Julia's having some trouble with her Sorbet and the creaminess of it. So let's get to that.

All right, thank you for jumping on. I really appreciate it. And will you come do this someday when you're not doing yours? I know you're so busy. But come.

I would love to. Absolutely love to. Because you are, in fact, a good hang. Thank you. So are you, friend.

And I think about our times together a lot and always want more of them. So let's make it happen. Done and done. So I brought you a little present. I shopped all over the world for it.

I went to Hermes. I went to all the fabulous stores. And I chose something I thought you might like. Hi, huh? Listen, Isina's giving me a beautiful green bag.

This is an ASMR, some crinkle ASMR. Did I guess right? I'm getting chills. OK. No, it's not a diamond necklace.

This is so incredible. Jenna, do you know what this is? Fake roast chicken. Just add to your collection. Actually, my heart is coming.

My heart is coming. First of all, there's so many things I love about this. Thank you. I love this. I really, I'm just going to cry.

I like that it is the same size as a roast chicken. It's not a fake fake. It's a real fake. I like the glistening. There's a pancake.

I like that this little lecture tied together. This is actually how you would have put, because I make your roast chicken with an all. Yes, I'll go. That's my favorite recipe. And you talk about talking the wings and tying here, putting the lemons inside.

And the weight of it. For you can't listen or you can't feel it, but it's got a good weight. But not too much. If you dropped it on your toe, you would break it. No, that is the night.

As you heard, I love fake food. And I've got that idea here. And I know I should probably put it in the back, but I also want to keep it close. Oh, I love it. OK, I'll put it in the back.

Thank you so much. You're going to love me yet. And now, everyone who sees it will know that it came from you. Your roast chicken, we have a lot to talk about today. OK.

But I'm sure you've heard this for many people, but you are like a translator. So you take what you've learned and what you know, and you make people understand it. And it's a rare skill. Oh, thank you. That's wonderful.

I just, this roast chicken, even though it's fake, is making me think about the fact that you taught me how to make a roast chicken, which, and what is bigger than that and deeper than that is, you do. It's not about the chicken. It's about when you cook everybody shows up, and then you create a community around yourself. And I didn't know that until I started writing cookbooks. It's just a really important thing that we all need to feel like we're part of something, and that we take care of people, they take care of us.

And a roast chicken is the most basic thing. I don't think there's a culture in the world that doesn't have some kind of roast chicken. So people start podcasts sometimes to check mics, and they say, what do you eat for breakfast? What did you eat for breakfast? It's the question that a lot of people ask when they're starting a podcast.

I know what did you have for breakfast, Mike? Same thing I always have. And I go for years with one breakfast, and then I switch and I go for years with another breakfast. So I always have whole grain toast with really good butter. I love French butter and coffee.

And that's breakfast. Coffee drinker. How do you take your coffee? With milk. And tea drinker at all?

I start drinking tea around 10.30. Not at 10.29. Not 10. 31, but at 10.30. My brain goes tea.

And no more coffee the rest of the day. Probably not. Yeah. That's my question. That's my question.

I have a lot of my friends. I have a lot of young friends who talk about how they can't sleep. And when you check out their coffee intake. It's like crazy. It's crazy.

I brought something else with me too while we're on that subject of breakfast. It brought something else. And I think Jenna might have it right here. If we play our party. We'd either give me more things.

It's overwhelmed. So we have to party here on a party. We want a good party. Oh my gosh. OK, so they had fabulous strawberries at Edelley downstairs.

Mine is probably not. And they're from Harry's Barries in the Northwest. Yeah, Harry's Barries is really big in California too. Oh, it's just the best. And I thought we had to have something to drink with.

So we got a nice chill, churroseco. This could be breakfast. I want you to know I barely drink anymore. So I'm a real lightweight. I'm worse.

I'm totally worse. I always say I spend so much more time talking about drinking than I do actually drinking. If I can have a glass of that, I'm going to really start some secrets. There's going to be some tears. I think I might have to fill your glass.

And I'm first getting it open. So now it's not so easy. I used to be in the food service. Oh, I mean we're so on. I'd be happy to open it for you because you're going to be the one to do this.

OK, because I used to open a lot of, why are you flinching, Jenna? I know how to open. So here's the key. She turned the bottle not the cork, right? Exactly.

And also, you want to do the thing where you talk about something else while you're doing it. So you're just trapped. So you're going to say, when you're opening your champagne, you're just saying, so just a couple of things about the specials tonight. You have a gorgeous fake rush chicken. That is really delicious.

We have a well done, like a pro. Whoa. Oh my god. OK, yes please. Thank you so much.

OK, we're pouring champagne. This is the most fun. Podcasts are great, guys. All you do is you get presents and then you have champagne with an anon in strawberries. This is a pretty woman.

So champagne and strawberries. She's how we imagined our life. Cheers. Cut to me immediately, crying. OK, wow.

And these strawberries look amazing. I'm going to say something a little controversial. There's going to be a lot of controversy in this podcast. Fruit. Fruit?

You don't like fruit? I like it. But I'll take a vegetable over fruit. I'll take vegetable over fruit. But fruit that is picked before you eat it, that tastes like fruit.

The problem is a lot of things here have been picked like six months ago. And they're shipped somewhere. It's not like a farm stand. And buying. When you go to France, there are stores that sell fruit.

That when you go to pick out a pair, they say, no, you want these pairs. And do you want to eat it today or tomorrow? And they're choosing it by how ripe it is. So it's going to be perfect today or perfect tomorrow. The problem is we're eating fruit out of season.

I mean, the strawberries are in season. We're eating fruit that's not ripened on the vine. It's been ripened by sitting around, which doesn't ripen it. It just ages it. So the thing about good strawberries, it tastes like strawberry jam.

You don't need to do anything with it. And I know this is kind of a sofic choice. But if you had to go between sweet and salty, what would be your choice? Are you a savory or you a sweet person? And so fruit sometimes is a little like, I'd rather have a cheese than fruit.

Oh, I'm with you there. Cheese and bread. I mean, like the fruit. Cheese and bread does it all, and you and I are good. What you grew up in Brooklyn, what did you eat growing up?

Your mother was a dietitian. Did you have that? What were you eating at home and what did you eat? It was, she was very extreme in what she served. And she believed that you should only eat protein and vegetables and nothing else.

I mean, there were no, there wasn't bread. There wasn't french fries. There wasn't, I mean, literally no carbs. Wow. I was like starving when I was a kid.

I don't know cookies and milk when you got home from school. If I asked her for something for, if I got home and I was hungry, she'd go, oh, just eat an apple. I mean, nobody wants an apple after school. No, especially since they just give him one who a teacher. He's not eating with teachers.

But it's interesting because, you know, when you grew up and after, there was a, I mean, there still is a course this crazy diet culture, but there was this like weird fear about food, like, and the fear shifts all the time. Sometimes we're afraid of carbs, then we're afraid of fats, then we're afraid of, like, and you've witnessed the trends that where people come and go and they decide what we're supposed to be afraid of. And I remember growing up in the 70s. It was just a lot of misinformation about food. It was just we just didn't know what we didn't know, I guess.

I mean, at the end of the day, I think the more you cook and two simple things to cook and the less you process foods, that's really all you need to know. And if you eat a balanced diet, you feel better. I know. It doesn't mean you're living on carbs or you're, there are no carbs. It's balanced.

And if you want to be healthier, then eat a little more vegetables and a little less protein and carbs. But I mean, that's not that complicated. But real food was not something discussed in the 70s. The 70s was about gadgets and shortcuts, right? Because women were going back to work and it was very much like, hey, you don't have to make the meal, make stuff in your microwave instead.

And there was, I remember I'll speak on behalf of my mom, like a freedom in things being faster and easier. And kids being able to do it and all that kind of stuff. But we did. Did you cook when you were a kid? No.

Because you didn't start cooking until you were like 40, right? Right. So what changed? So I really believed, and what I was saying to you earlier, I really believed that it just was the kind of person that, I was like, I just don't think I'm the kind of person that cooks. I was saying myself.

You're not the kind of person who can cook or wants to cook? I think a little bit of both. I think it was like, I don't really know enough dishes and maybe it's something I'm not interested in. But what motivates me sometimes, Hina, is watching really dumb people do things. Because I'm like, wait, there's a lot of, wait, look, Hina interviewing me, by the way, I think I'm talking.

Wait a minute, hold on, I gotta pause. You are good. You're interviewing me. We're having a conversation. We're real.

I have one sip of a bicycle. What's up? What's up? You know what the thing is, Hina? The 70s, no.

But you are a big part of me feeling like, wait a minute. I've seen some of that dumb person cooking. We have to back up here. No, I guess I mean, I was motivated by, I watched people learn how to cook and I thought, hold on, I know how to learn new things. I can learn new things.

One of my favorite things that Jennifer Coroner ever said was, she said, as you get older, you're not willing to try new things because you're afraid of failing. Of course. When you're a kid, you try everything and you fail, you get up, you do it again. But as we get older, we're not willing to do that. And I think it really got me to think about the things that I wasn't doing because I thought I wouldn't be able to do them well.

That's a pattern in your life over and over again for you, is you decide to kind of evaluate where you are and choose a joyful next path. You've done that over and over again. So you grew up in Brooklyn. We got to bring Jeffrey in right away. I don't know.

We just got to bring him in here right now. Jeffrey, and you meet first when you're 16 and then? I was like 17 when he saw me. He was 16 when he saw me and I met him when I was 17. And you were married at 20?

Yeah. Wow. That's the hardest thing I ever did. I have to say, against everybody's advice, if your mother tells you not to marry somebody, listen to yourself, not your mother. And what did Jeffrey's parents think?

Did they want him? They were wonderful. They were. They met me when I met them at some family bar mitzvah or something. And Jeffrey's his butt and fell off his coat.

And I said, oh, just give it to me. I'll sew it back on again. And his grandmothers were taking their wedding rings and going, marry her now before somebody else. She knows how to sew a butt knot. I think what people know, I know what people respond to about your relationship with Jeffrey.

And it is that you kind of can't fake mutual respect. You just see it or you don't. And you two have a lot of respect for each other. Yeah. And we're not very simple.

We have a very different kind of life than we expected to. We don't have kids, we don't have cats and dogs, we don't have gerbils. It's just the two of us. If we try to figure out what to do, we figure out what he wants to do and what I want to do. And this is what Jeffrey taught me is, let's figure out how we can both do what we want to do.

It's not about whether we get to do what you want to do or I want to do. And big things like careers and small things like what movie we go see. I just love that about him. He's so respectful. And it's pretty hard not to return that.

Yeah. In a long marriage and a long relationship, it's like one of the things you have to be vigilant about just trying to stay respectful with someone that you know so well because we just get very familiar with people and we forget that part where we have to be kind of tender with them and you're both very tender with each other. I don't take it for granted ever. What do people say to you about your relationship with Jeffrey because I bet people project a lot on it. I know the internet does.

A lot of people say, oh, I have a Jeffrey too. And I think to myself, Matt. You're like, Brad to me. And your dreams. And I'm just kidding.

I'm just kidding. Do you want me to do that? I think you'll never hit on your Jeffrey. No. I hope not.

I'm kidding. But yeah, people say, oh, I have a real, and what do you think they're saying when they say that? Then I have somebody that I have a really good time with and I just adorn he adores me back, which is all you really want, right? But you know, that's what you want. And I relate to that too.

But I think sometimes people forget the fun part in relationships. It's so important. Why is it important? I mean, what's the first thing you look for in a friend or a spouse? They have a sense of humor because otherwise, I mean, everything's such crazy stuff going on.

If you don't have a sense of humor about it, you're just too serious. You're too serious to live with. I know. I know it's very simple, but it's sometimes hard to learn. And I do think that the other thing that people see in your relationship is a man who is very in love with his partner.

And you are choosing someone who loves you, I guess, is the simplest way to say it. And that's it seems so easy and simple, but it's not always what people do. I knew somebody who would fix people up with together. And Jeffrey said to her, what do you look for in somebody that you're fixing up with a friend of yours? And she said three things.

Are they a good person? Do they want to take care of you? And that doesn't mean financially. That means everything. Do they want to take care of you?

The third one really shocked me because it was so simple. Does he want to be with you? So many people want a wife, but they want to go play golf. But that's the thing that Jeffrey, there's nothing. It just follows me around the house.

And everyone's going to turn around and go, does he want to be with you? Yes. Do you want to be in each other's company? Do you want to be together? You're just looking for that to fill in that blank.

Yeah, that is so deep. It really is. It's so simple. And yet it's so important. Yeah.

And I know that you, you know, anyone who's been married, how many years have you been married? Fifty, seven. So you have this ever-changing story, right? The song that keeps changing and growing. How have you grown?

How have you both changed from when you were married to 20? Like how are you different? I think when we married at 20, we each had like roles. You know, he was the husband, I was the wife. You know, we both had jobs and you know, we'd go to the State Department, I worked in the White House and it was assumed that I would come home and make dinner until I found it just incredibly annoying.

I just didn't want to have the girl role and him have the boy role. And so we just threw the whole thing away and started all over again. So he just took the checkbook and he said, here you do it. He said to me, he said to me, I know what's he doing that Bill is saying? What's this Bill from Bloomingdale's?

And I thought, I'm not about to justify to you what my Bill from Bloomingdale's is. And he picks up the checkbook and he hands it to me and goes, okay, you do it. And I said, fine. And that was that. So I have such memories of my parents sitting at the kitchen table with their children.

Doing it together? Doing it together. And it being a big deal about who was doing it. And you're right. Especially a lot of women during that time just weren't even aware of their financial situation let alone knew how to do it.

Exactly. And recently, actually, Jeffery said to me, so how much do we spend on the garden? He was like, Jeffery, don't ask questions. That doesn't matter. We have strawberries, we're fine.

I just went, I don't think so. We do not blow past the White House. We just said so casually. I was at the White House. He was at the State Department, like an episode of the Americans or something.

But that was us. You didn't know that. That's the untold story. I mean, you could argue that you and Jeffery worked for the CIA. Well, I think you know, you don't know this about Jeffery, but he was a paratrooper on Green Beret.

And then his first job was in the White House and then he worked for the Secretary of State. So everybody, I know thinks he's in the CIA. And everyone's in a while ago, are you actually in the White House? And he always says, you know, the wives of the last two men. That would be an amazing show.

I would watch that when he reveals any kind of news. I'm a Russian agent. But you worked in the White House and you were working during the Ford Administration, the Carter Administration, like during those four. Started when Ford came in and then stayed on through Carter. And what were you doing there?

I worked on nuclear energy policy. Nuclear energy policy. So it's the part of the federal budget that I worked at Office of Management and Budget, which writes the President's budget. And I oversaw all the budget for nuclear power plants and interesting that it's come up now in rich uranium. Yes, it's very, it's very, it's in the news.

Exactly. How did you get that job? How did you get a job? I just, I think Jeffrey knew somebody in the White House who was looking for somebody and I applied for the job and got it. And you talked about how it was pretty, it was tough for you.

There's things moved slowly. Slowly. Oh my God. Every year we would take something out of the budget, something big. I mean, at the time it was, there was one nuclear project that was $20 billion, which was a lot at that time in the 70s.

And it would go up to the Hill. And the Congress person, I think it was from the Trump Thurman, was from the district that this plant was in and then we were trying to get rid of it or give it to private industry. He would have no control over it. So he would put it back in. Wow.

And he would put it back in. And he would put it back in again. And after four years of that, I was like, okay, I'm done. So done. I'm not writing this paper one more time.

So you're writing budgets and you decide I need something where there's, I really need to do something that, like where I can make something do something and I can see the results of it fast. And so can you just tell me, how do you go from, I mean, I've read about it and I've watched you talk about it, but still the leap from working in that very corporate job to running a store is such an interesting leap. What gave you the courage to make the leap? How do you make that career change? I knew I was done with working in the government.

And I was, when I lived in Washington, I taught myself how to cook. I used to have just for fun, buy old houses, renovate them and sell them and actually I was going to business school at the same time. I don't know. I did any of that. And I knew I was either going to go into real estate or the food business and I just didn't know which one.

And then this ad showed up in the New York Times and I came home that night and I said to Jeff, I really need to find something else to do. And he said, just pick something fun. Pick something that you think you love doing. And if you love it, you'll be really good at it. And I was like, funny, you should mention it.

I saw an ad for a business for sale in a place I'd never been. It was especially Food Store. And he said, let's go look at it. Wow. So what an incredible guy.

He was in a place that he didn't live. He was working for the secretary of state. It would basically blow up our lives. And he said, just go look at it. This episode is brought to you by Marshalls.

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But they can't do it alone. It's time for a clearer path to mental health care and we can all be part of building it. To learn how, head over to camh.ca slash good hang. You have now a business, employees, and you have to learn very quickly how to be a boss. Yeah.

Right? And so how would you describe yourself as a boss? I always wanted to be the boss that I wanted to have myself. And so I'm very collaborative. I think in the beginning I was probably too collaborative.

Like what do you think we should do here? What should we do there? And as I got better at it, somebody actually gave me the advice, your employees need two things from you. They need you to be clear and they need you to be happy. And from then on I would say I need these candies bagged and I need them wrapped up like this.

And if I was having a bad day, I would just disturb the energy in the room. I mean sometimes I have 50 or 100 employees and they'd all be like, what did I do wrong? But it had nothing to do with them. So I'd just walk out of the store, I'd walk around the block, calm myself down and come back happy. And I think that was the best lesson I ever had for business.

How do you give feedback or criticism? I'm very clear about two things. If I'm criticizing you, I'll take you out of the room and discuss what you can do better. If I'm complimenting you, I'll do it with everybody around. I don't really need to.

I think compliments with everyone around is a huge thing that people forget to do. I think they actually do the opposite quite a bit. They criticize with everyone around. And they compliment privately. Yeah.

And if I have to fire somebody, I'm always worried. What are their colleagues going to say? And I usually give them a lot of warning because when they have to do better at the end of the day, it doesn't work. I fire them. Usually in a way that makes them say, thank you and kiss me.

Like, this isn't the right job for you, but that could be the right job for you. And then I call everybody together and that works for me. And I say, I need to explain to you what happened, why this didn't work out with that person. Because I'm so worried that their colleagues are going to be mad that their friend is gone. And 100% of the time they're like, oh, such a pain in the neck.

We hated working with them. I'm so glad you fired them. Right. Right. So it turns, but you need that communication.

It's kind of a on the job learn skill because your point, I think we're going to make a huge generalization year, but sometimes a lot of women are good collaborators. So we figure out, like, I think the best way to be in charge here is to make sure everybody's voices are heard and I'm constantly collaborating until you realize that people are looking for direction for direction. And I start with the assumption, everybody wants to do a good job. I just have to give them the tools to do it. I have to tell you one story, though, the first probably a month when I bought Bareford Contessa and there was, I think there was a cook and three people working in the store.

And one of them was just dreadful. And they were all like 16 years old. But she was just, I mean, she had no vision. Like if I tell her to, you know, clean the counter, if there were 20 customers waiting, she'd be cleaning the counter. Right.

She was just very sweet, but not very good. So I took her out in the back and I explained that, you know, I'm sure there are other jobs that are good at this isn't the one. It was so gentle because I was so worried about hurting her feelings that the next day she showed up for work again. She didn't know she was tired. I'm the worst part is I couldn't do it again.

So she stayed for the whole summer. I've gotten better than that. I could see that happening too. I can show you. Everyone's like, thank you for the feedback.

I'll see you tomorrow. What have I done? I'm barefoot Contessa. When you opened the store, what was the stuff that you were trying to sell there that spoke to people who were wanting real food? Well, you know, I had to learn it.

Yeah. I thought this is an expensive store. It's very expensive to make specialty foods. I'm in the Hamptons. I'd never been there before.

So I had an image of it being fancy. And so if I made, I mean, while we're talking about roast chicken, if I made roast chicken in the store, I take a huge white platter and I fill it with fresh herbs and then I put the roast chickens on it and then put them out and nobody bought them. And I was like, okay, what am I doing wrong? I took the chicken back in the kitchen and I put all the chickens in little red and white paper cups like you would put French fries in and put them on the counter and they all sold. And I thought, oh, that's so interesting.

People want really accessible food. They don't want fancy food because they're eating it at home. It's different. When you go to a restaurant and want something that's interesting that you've never had before or takes a long time at home, you want simple food? You want roast chicken, roast carrots and brownies.

Yes. And what do you say? Really good ones, but really good ones. They taste good when you make them. Yeah.

Then they're really good ones. But that is I think it's just like the thing that you capture with your cookbooks, your show, and your podcast, this idea that you have everything you need. You've got it within you. It's very like Wizard of Oz or something, which is like you've been in you all along. You just don't know what's there.

You just have to unleash it. That's one of the things that I really wasn't prepared for when I started writing cookbooks is people sending me gifts. They kept sending me things. I'm like, why are they doing it? People were making huge pots and that they threw themselves and said, why are people being so nice to me?

And I realized that it was, I wasn't giving them something like a cookbook. I was giving them the tools to make something for themselves. And they would put it out and people would say, you made that chocolate cake yourself? And they felt good about themselves. And that's, I think they wanted to thank me, which was so lovely.

It was such a realization that it was, that it just felt very generous. It was really nice. Yeah. We're giving people the tools to do something for themselves. People really attached to you, I know.

It's really sweet. I mean, I think you remind them of someone in their family. I think they feel exactly what you've taught them something. It's like teacher and mommy and Jedi master and like relationship goals and all that stuff. How does it feel to get all that love and attention from people?

I mean, who wouldn't like it? I mean, it's really, when they start throwing things, we'll talk about it. Yeah, it sounds great. Dumbest question I've ever asked. I have a question for you.

Okay, here we go. What's your favorite New Yorker cartoon? Oh my God. I heard you love New Yorker cartoons. I love New Yorker cartoons.

I don't remember any of them. Really? Yes. But they're so good. I do remember.

I knew you would. Okay. Thank you for asking. And for anyone under the age of 55, the New Yorker is a magazine. And you can read it in person and you flip through it like it's like a book with skinnier and flatter.

And for those who forget, a book is a piece of rigatoni on the phone calling somebody and saying, Fusili, you crazy bastard. I love that you're a food worker. It's all of mine or food. My favorite one is a little pig sitting on the examining table on a doctor's office. And the doctor comes in with his clipboard and he goes, I have very bad news.

It's your ribs. They're delicious. Do you ever enter those contests? No, I wouldn't have a clue. It amazes me if people can write those things.

Me too. No. I write jokes for living. What could argue? And oftentimes I'll be staring at the picture like, why do I stay here?

And it's so funny. It's just like, hey guys, what's going on? I actually just saw a cartoon. It wasn't the New Yorker, but I just saw a cartoon. It was two dogs coming up to the front door.

And there were two dogs answering the door. And one of the dogs, the ones arriving said, you know, Cheryl said, life is short. We really have to smell the roses. You saw that there was a mailbox and it said rose. So the dogs inside with roses.

Life is short. We really have to smell the roses. I just started laughing. I couldn't stop. What do you like about your cartoons?

The plan words. The plan words. Intelligence. What kind of a mind thought of that cartoon? Life is short.

We really have to go smell the roses. And they said, and here we are. You know, you just ask the question at the end, but I want to ask it now, which is, what makes you laugh? What are you reading, watching? I can tell that you like to laugh.

I do have my friends. I just, I don't tend to watch humorous movies or shows or things like that. I just, I love my friends have great sense of humor. And they just make me laugh all the time. Well, how important, you know, being in your 70s, what are female friendships mean to you?

What are your friendships mean to you? It's everything. Yeah. It's everything. I mean, I mean, Jeffery's clearly my best friend, but women bring something totally different.

And it's really connection. And actually that's what I always thought that I was so pleased that I was in the food business, because I could really work out the issues for my childhood and it was just wonderful. But when I started doing Be My Guest, I realized what I was missing really is connection. And it's, that's been just extraordinary. I've made, well, your dear frontina, made great friends.

Yes. I'm so jealous. You guys went out to eat. Oh, it was so much fun. And your friends with Julia Louis Dreyfus.

Julia. Congratulations to Queen's. Well, she not only is she the best, but she spoke to us before this podcast. Oh, she did? Oh, she was the one.

Oh, she was the one. Oh, yes. We talked to Julia because. I'm so smart. So is she the same thing about you?

She said you're really smart. Yeah. Thank you. Smarties all around it. Smart people have a sense of humor have the best senses of humor.

Well, Tina has said this, which you can tell a lot about somebody by what they laugh at. Yeah. Although that doesn't say much about me because I laugh at everything. You just like to laugh. That's good.

But you're right. Sense of humor is a sign of intelligence and also it's the way we just tell each other what we care about. So Julia, we talked to Julia. She says hello. Well, she was wearing a giant sun hat and going through her refrigerator when we talked to her.

And she had a question for you. She said, well, how are you so cheerful? And then she said, and what makes you, what puts you in a bad mood? Has to have aggressive people who tell you what you want to hear and do exactly as they please. Makes me crazy.

And I can chew on them for years. I'm going to say more about that. What do you mean? So like someone who plays you? Yeah.

Well, we all know people that if you're doing something with someone, you want to be collaborative. Yeah. Let's just all figure out what the issues are, what we need to do. And then together, we'll make a decision unless, you know, unless it's my business, but you know, just moving forward. And I don't like people that withhold information so that they control the situation because then I'm making a decision with the real information.

And I just find passive aggressive makes me crazy. I mean, crazy. And you also asked what, how I keep my having my joy. I think that it needs to be nurtured. I think we're either born with a positive or negative energy.

And I think about when I do yoga and my instructor says, what does she say? Find your inner smile. I think you either walk around with an inner smile or you don't. And if you don't, I think you need to just nurture it. And I feel like I was just one this way.

My parents just said I came out like playing with my toes and giggling. And it's, I think it's an important thing to do. I think it makes life easier. Yeah. It's really, I think it's really important.

And yes, we've had extraordinary lives. But we also had difficult times. You have a, you talk about it in your memoir. We've all had difficult times. And how you deal with it is, it's up to you.

You know, if, if I may, you spoke about your late in life, would you say reconciliation with your dad? But like, how did I talk about it? Do you want to talk about it? You know, my dad was not a great dad. He was really tough and critical.

But later on, he just, we were together at a, they were giving a party for me for my second book. So it was 2000. And he was sitting with me and he said, said to me, one sentence that made all the difference in the world. He looked at me and he said, I don't know what I was thinking. And it makes me cry just now.

And that changed our whole relationship because he felt badly about it. And he basically said, I'm sorry in that sentence. And then we went on, but my dad, I have to say, he was a tough dad. But he also gave me something when I was a child that was really important. He loved to talk through, he was a doctor, but he loved to buy real estate.

So he would always talk through real estate deals. And he'd say, come in my study and talk through this deal with me. And so he taught me how to, you know, borrow money, go to the bank, borrow money. I credit him with a lot of, a lot of things that I've done that don't scare me because I'm used to talking about it that way. Yeah.

I mean, it's also such an example of like you have to be open to the idea of forgiveness or the idea of letting things go basically. Like it shows up in all different ways. It shows up in the way you are in relationship with your husband, which is like we just kind of don't sweat the small stuff and you just have to kind of like, you know, like love each other through hard times. It shows up in the way that you cook, which is when there's like a mistake or an accident or like an oopsie. It's like funny.

It's fun. Yeah. It's not the end of the world. Yeah. But then it becomes, of course, much deeper when it has to do with your family of origin and deciding like how much you're going to hold on to.

And it doesn't mean you always forget. I mean, everyone's going to have lunch with them and I go, I can't believe I'm having lunch with this monster. But he wasn't them. He really had come around and, you know, but it's, you have to push that away. That's, that was them.

This is now. And you know, there's all, we fetishize, well, we fetishize marriage, especially, you know, exists straight marriage. But we also fetishize children and people who have them and you don't have children. What is the best thing about not having children? I'm not being responsible for them.

Not having teenagers. No. When somebody says, hey, you know, not just a car and you're trying to lease yours out. Well, I mean, I don't think people, you know, there's all these studies buried people without children are the happiest people. I think there's always, everyone keeps going, well, they just haven't met my children yet.

You know, it's, it's amazing to me that I made that decision so young and that thank God, it wasn't. But I just can't imagine my life any other way. I've done what I wanted to do. I've had one, you know, just a wonderful time. You made very cultural decisions for a woman of your generation.

Yeah, right. You really did. But I mean, maybe I'm just projecting, but I feel like, you know, when you were working and doing all these choices and making these big leaps and big swings, you didn't have as many women doing the same thing as you did. I really didn't have any. I can't think of anybody that I know at the time who made the same choices.

I really can't. Right now as a woman running an empire. That's not an empire. I know, that's an empire. Okay.

Okay. I want to call more women geniuses and I want to call more female business owners. I want to call more female run businesses empires. Empires are not just for men. Well, I just, I think empires have 1000 employers.

I have two. You only have two employees. Actually, and a part time, part time office manager. I want to talk to you about this. This is incredible.

Because you've scaled down. I just, I want to walk across the lawn to the barn where I have people that I love and I want to cook all day. Did Tina ever tell you how she interviewed the Brooklyn Academy of Music? No, tell me about that. She started and she said, you know, my friends think you have this perfect life.

You get up in the morning, you walk across the lawn, you cook all day. Your friends come to come by to visit you. You go out for dinner. Your husband leaves on Monday. He comes back on Friday.

And then she said, and I told, told my husband, I was, I told my husband, I was going to say this. And he said, you know, I'm going to be in the audience when you say that, right? And she was kind of right. That's really what my life was like. It's just been great.

So are you looking at like you were hustling so much in the, you know, you work really hard. I did work really hard. Writing the memoir maybe realized I worked really hard. What did you learn from your memoir? I didn't know about yourself.

I think about it all the time. I'm always like troubling it because I get such a steam from work. I get a ton of self esteem from work and I don't want to give that up. I also get a lot of self esteem from parenting and being a parent to my kids. And like you, I feel like I desperately need connection with people and my friends.

So all of those things and a lot of connection comes from work. But I don't know about you, but as I look ahead, it's just an interesting, like what is our relationship to work to what is enough to, you know, what do we want to, how do we want to shape the third act of our life? And you are a life shaper. You, so what do you see the last? What do I want to do?

If I know what I want to do today and by the end of the day I'm going to decide what I'm going to do tomorrow, it's all I need to know. It's kind of like my first book. I thought, oh my God, how am I going to write a book? The whole book. And I thought, okay, I don't need to know how to write a whole book.

All I need to know is what recipe I'm going to test today. And then tomorrow I'll test another recipe. And somewhere along the line at the end of the line, I'm going to have a book. But I don't give myself overwhelming projects. I give myself manageable bites.

Yes, I relate to that. It's just taking, I like to call it like, you know, like this season. I'm going to think about it in terms of seasons because the idea of like the next year is going to be feeling the blank that's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming.

It's just season we're going to work on this. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? There's this great expression like, I'm embarrassed. I can't remember the name of who said it.

I have that topic on the table. I think I think I think I think I think I'm going to go as far as you can see. And when you get there, you'll be able to see farther. But if you map it from here to there, you're going to limit yourself. You need you map it as far as you can see.

And then when you get there, there may be other options you wouldn't have even thought of when you get there. I just like to leave myself open to what things come along that it was like, no, not interested. No, lose my number. Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

That's kind of interesting. Actually come back here. Yeah. I mean, I think that's success, success is being able to dive into work. It's a surprise.

I mean, you don't want to do the same thing over and over again. Yeah. And when you were writing your memoir, how did you, how do you like to write? Never. I'm making amends all my friends, whatever it takes to not write.

Okay. So fast, fast, fast round. I know. Are you ready? Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. And do you enjoy feta on there? Yeah.

I enjoy feta on anything. I put feta on any of the carrots. That's fabulous. Or balsamic vinegar. Cerebral balsamic vinegar.

So good. Because the sweet carrots and the vinegar are good. I like things that have an edge. Yeah. And vinegar is too.

I love a vinegar. Me too. Oh, Julia would want me to ask you this. How do you make, she's been making some sorbet and she, it was very fancy. She's speaking of fancy.

She had, she made sorbet and then she scooped out lemon and put it back in the lemon. Yeah. Yeah. But she found her sorbet wasn't as creamy. It was icy more than creamy.

Any tips? She said she made it with sugar, water. Did she make it in an ice cream maker? Great question. Yeah.

I don't know. Some recipes have you just freeze it and like almost like a granita. Yeah. And that's, that would be grainy. Yes.

If you make it in an ice cream. I'm not an expert on. I know. I don't really love desserts. Making them.

It's like a whole other world. Okay. My favorite New Yorker cartoon. We got that. Was that on your list?

No. New Yorker cartoon. Oh my God. Can I tell you my favorite ones please? Dog sitting at the bar and the bartender walks over and he said what can I get you?

He said I'll take a scotch and toilet water. Do you cook on Thanksgiving? Yes. I love Thanksgiving. Me too.

It's just, it's like the best holiday because it's traditional things. You can make them better. Yeah. I love Thanksgiving. What's your new, like what's something you make on Thanksgiving that people would be surprised is at your table?

Like is there like, you know, like, huh? That on Thanksgiving? Well, you know, a couple of years ago, the New York Times asked me to do a store bought Thanksgiving. And I thought, who could ever do that? So I said, I don't think so.

And then I started thinking about it. And I realized that if you could take a store bought ingredient from the store and make it a store, wouldn't that be fabulous? So I went and got Pepperidge Fawn stuffing mix and I made a bread pudding out of it, which was so good. It was crazy. So I have a lot of Thanksgiving things now, like to get, like you can actually get good mashed potatoes, but then I got sour cream and Parmesan cheese and garlic and it's just delicious.

And you have no idea that there's a store bought ingredient in there. Okay. Young chefs or food writers that you're into. I mean, I have a few people like Erin French from Lost Kitchen. I love her.

So, you know, like the other day, she sent out a recipe. I'm like, like, oh, I'm making that. Yeah. But I don't really spend. What did she say?

Do you ever watch TikTok or Instagram Reels or any of the young people they're cooking on there? TikTok, no Instagram, I love. Yeah. And I just think, you know, if you're interested in gardens, you know, you see a lot of stuff on gardens. You have to be careful about not watching cute puppy things because that's all you ever get.

Do you ever see all those like this like version of the macho guy who's like in the woods and cuts the meat and puts it on the grill? What are you watching? Come on over to my FYP. I know. Okay.

Your profile is different from my work. No, I'm not. You don't know how to Jeffrey. I know. I'm not Jeffrey.

Let's destroy. Yeah. Let's go on. Okay. things that a splash of red wine in a big pot of lentils, it just changes everything.

Yes, anything. Lemon zest. Lemon zest. Yeah. Well, that's the only thing is it's really, I learned when I started cooking later, two things.

One is, you know, sometimes my anxiety needed to go somewhere. You know, sometimes it just needs to land. Like in your day, right? You have to, you're making a list of what you have to do. For your kids or do for your work, whatever.

And I found like thinking about what I was gonna make was a really nice way to put my anxiety in it. To sleep for a while. Yeah. Because you know what it is? The thing about Jeffery was just says about me.

Cooking is hard. And if it weren't hard, I wouldn't be interested in it. It's the challenge. And if you're doing something that's really hard, you just put everything else out of your mind. And I think that's one of the things I love about cooking.

I mean, when I start, when I invite people over, I'm like, oh, this is gonna be so much fun. And they're like, and then I'm like, why did I invite you? Oh my gosh. Everybody relates to that. Everybody relates to that.

Like very relaxed. Oh shit. Oh, really? And I just want to say you brought up lemon zest. And I will say that for people who are learning how to cook, I would say reward yourself with a tool.

Assester. Because when I got a zester, I was like, look at me. Yeah. I was like, and I would just take it out. And you're just like, look at this.

Because sometimes we need a little treat at the end of our learning. And get yourself a zester. And don't keep it forever. Oh, really? You can't sharpen it like a knife.

Oh, right. After a couple years, get a new one. Throw it in the ocean. OK, anything you refuse to cook. Like anything you're like, no.

It's so funny. We were just talking about this the other day. At least with a friend. And we were talking about what our mother's used to make. It was like Monday was one thing.

Tuesday was something else. Tongue. That's another one. Tongue was on her list. And liver and onion was on her list.

Never and I never need to cook either one of them. But also things that are really complicated. I don't know. I mean, like we have a really good we best takes forever. So I know what a bouy base actually is.

It's a fish stew. OK. So I mean, so. Which I'm sure it doesn't like. No, no, no.

I made a fish stew. It was the only thing I ever made that he didn't like. It was terrible. But that's not considered a bouy base? It wasn't a bouy base.

A good bouy base. It literally cooks for days. And it's got bones and the heads and the stock and all that stuff. Yeah. And so making your own stock to me is.

I mean, that's just like a level of there's just certain levels where you think like maybe someday I'll I'll do that. You're going to come visit me. Oh, yeah. And we're going to make chicken stock. And you won't believe how we see this.

And what an incredible difference it makes. You take a big pot and you put like 10 things in it and you cook it for four hours. I love something that you can cook forever and forget it. Forget it. I leave the house to come back.

It's fine. That was the thing about why everyone got into sourdough during the COVID is because everyone was like, it takes three days. And it was like, I need something. Exactly. But I don't want to.

Do Bailey's do anything or is this some kind of conspiracy? I'm David Remnick at the New Yorker and I have a long conversation about this. Beats me. You're not ready to my guess is that fresh bay leaves can make a difference. There's like an undertone that you can taste.

Bailey's that have been in your spice drawer for 40 years. I don't think so. And also fresh bay leaves like that's one needs to plan ahead. Like when you see it, I think it says fresh bay leaves. It's like I'm out.

I mean, actually it's true. Like sometimes in recipes, you're will be chugging along and then you see something you're like, you know what I'm out. Yeah. I just can't do it. I just can't get fresh bay leaves.

That's why when I'm writing a recipe, I always say to myself, somebody when I'm doing a book, somebody in a photograph and go, that looks delicious. Look at the recipe and go, I actually can find all those ingredients in the grocery store, and it's simple enough for me to make. Yes. And that was like, from my first book to the one I'm working on now. It has to be all those things.

It has to be. If you see, you know, like you see an ingredient you've never heard of before, is that like an alcohol or is that like a spice? I have no idea. Absolutely. And then you also have that ingredient in your cupboard for years to come and it mocks you.

You're like, why did I buy a guitar? I've never been using this. I was like, I was like, oh, I'm never going to use this again. I was like, I was like, oh, I was like, I'm never going to use this again. And I see it every time I open the thing.

Okay. And then the last question is, and apologies for my language, but have you heard, did you watch the white lotus? I'm not all that. Okay. Well, there's this term that's happening right now, like where she has a cunty bob.

And you, sorry, I apologize. But you've had a bob for a very long time. You have great hair. Thank you. And you have a very sharp, it's gone different lengths, of course, in life.

A little bit. What do you enjoy about having a bob? And are you aware that you're very on trend? On trend? Oh, no, I have no idea.

Everyone's getting a bob. I was 25 years old. I lived in Washington. I had hair all the way down my back. And I had heard a friend of mine went to us along at the water gate.

And it was run by a man, Sylvain Malool, who had just come to the United States. And she had a, she had a bob. And I went right to him and I had him cut my hair like that. And you know, I've never changed it. It's been the same haircut since I was 25.

I've tried it. Every once in a while, I'll try something else. I'm going right back to where I started. It's a perfect bob. But now everyone is going for it.

Like, every, every Gen Z is cutting their hair. And also, you know, it's like feeling very brave while they do it. Well, you were a bob, right? I mean, I kind of, I'm at the point where my hair just kind of cuts itself. It doesn't really, it doesn't really grow.

Oh, that's really interesting. The French always say that if your hair is short, it shows your ensemble better. But if your hair is long, it's not the right profile. How much time do you spend in France? As much as possible?

Yes. And do you speak French? Mm-hmm, badly. Enough to deal with the Green Grestorster. Okay, and they'll speak it back to you.

Did you take lessons? No. I mean, from high school, from high school, French. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dream that someday I'm going to live there and fill time and go to Berlin.

But it hasn't happened yet. Oh, well, you never know. You never know. Because I know the one thing I've learned is like, there's just the sky's the limit. I mean, and actually like that is really like the theme of a lot of what we talked about today.

It's just that there is, there's no reason why there's no, there's no timeline as to when things are supposed to happen in your life. You get married really early, you start your business later, you're writing a memoir at this age. There's all these different ways in which you're just deciding what you want to do next and you're the architect of your own life. Yeah. And do it now.

Don't wait. Yeah. I think a lot of people say, well, you know, first I'm going to do this and then I'm going to do what I really want to do. Do what you really want to do now. And thank you so much for the presents, for the Trevaries, for the Prosecco, for the fake chicken.

I feel like lousy with gifts. Someday I'll make you a real chicken. I can't wait. Thank you so much for coming. It was so much fun.

It was really fun. Thank you. Thank you so much. I know that was so great. What a great conversation.

And I loved talking to you. I hope that this episode gets you hungry. I know it did me and it made me think about all the stuff I want to go home and cook. And so for this Polar Plunge, I just wanted to share something that I like to cook. My recipe, a kind of a go-to recipe that I do a lot, which is just a very kind of simple chicken curry.

I get chicken breasts with bone in chicken breasts. And I put it in a pot with some rice, chicken stock, bunch of curry, coconut milk, sometimes I'll throw in some chickpeas, throw in some parsley, make it look green, put it in the oven, slow cook it. And that shit's amazing. Okay, you look like a million dollars. You can, you know, you want to brown the chicken first, right?

You want to brown it in a pan first, then you put it in with the uncooked rice. You put whatever it is, two cups of rice, so whatever it is, three cups of chicken stock, let's cook it in milk. Put it in tons of curry, put it in the oven, three seventy five for like an hour. Keep checking it, stirring the rice if you need to. You take it out, you put it on the table, people think you're a genius.

You can serve it from the pot. You can serve the rice, take the chicken, and bobs your uncle. So that's my chicken curry. You can tell how I don't have a cooking show because I'm not great at explaining it. But you get it, you get it, you can do it, I believe in you.

Alright, thanks everyone for listening. Bye!