Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms and changes the world together. Hey, welcome back to the podcast. Today we're joined by Crystal Chang.
She's a discipleship director of Women Here at Mariners. She's originally from Canada but has traveled around the world with the organization Youth with Emission. Today we're diving into building healthy prayer rhythms in groups and leading well through different personalities. She brings wisdom with a worldwide perspective and a heart to help groups go deeper in God.
So let's dive in. Great for you to join us here for the Life Group leader podcast. So are you. I would love just to hear a little bit more about your story and how you came here to Mariners.
You came here about a year ago. Or a little more than a year ago. So you're like one of the most traveled people I know having worked for Youth with Emission YWAM. That's right.
So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Yeah. Well, I'm originally Canadian and grew up lived in Canada until about 25 I think. And I was working in a place in Canada and I just was like so bored with my life.
And I had a friend who had gone and done this thing called DTS or discipleship training school and she just came back so on fire for the Lord and I was like, dang, I want that. And so I went and did my DTS which there's hundreds of them. You can choose from them all over the world. And I did mine of all places in Pismo Beach just up in Central Coast.
It's crazy. So and I had such a clear sense when I was leaving that I was leaving my life like not in a bad way but in a like God had something totally new and special for me. And so I did my DTS and then I joined staff with YWAM. And so I joined staff with YWAM, served in a bunch of different locations in Montana, in New Zealand and then the longest time in Hawaii.
So my husband and I worked with the staff and student training there where we're over the staff development but also the student training portion of it which is the DTS and the six month training school. Yeah. And your last name is Chang. My last name is Chang.
But you're Canadian. But I am a white girl from Canada. It's misleading. It's true.
And you have two boys. Yeah. And I had since almost nine and Malachi is six and they are living their best lives. Yeah.
Yeah. First of all, one of the biggest reasons we wanted to have you on this podcast is because like you're such an encouragement to our entire team. Oh, thank you. Your love for Jesus is so evident.
And I think just seeing your spiritual rhythm of like prayer and the word and how you encourage our entire team through the rooted in scripture and prayer has been just a blessing to us. So I wanted to invite you and have you encouraged all of our white group leaders as well too. About incorporating prayer that it's not yesterday we had our new leader training and I was trying to remember that quote about prayer that Corey Tanboom. Yeah, that's right.
And I'm at a butcher's about. She said is prayer your steering wheel or your spare tire? That's so good. Is it a guide that leads your life or is it something that you bring out during a time to crisis?
And so I just want to kind of start out by asking like why do you think prayer is such an important and vital part of a healthy life group? Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost like prayer needs to be an important part of a personal journey with God. You know, like it's obviously like living in community, being experiencing prayer as a life group is going to be so formative.
But I think for me and for my friends or my husband prayer, like weaving prayer into my daily rhythm has shaped me more than anything else and has carried me from using it as the spare tire to using it as the steering wheel. And it's shaped me and shaped my understanding of God even in such a profound way that I genuinely just don't know how to do life without it. So I think when we talk about it in terms of groups, it has to first be a personal value and a personal daily rhythm. And it doesn't mean it's perfect.
You know, it doesn't mean I'm like checking the prayer box every day, but there's a personal value, need and desire for it first before even coming into a group context. Can you share personally like how have you seen that in your life as you've gone to the Lord and prayer? Yeah. You've had a lot of transitions.
So many. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, I think there's been different seasons and different things that the Lord really emphasized to me in prayer and led me in prayer even. And I remember there was like, there was a season where I felt the Lord kind of prompt me to begin praying through the Psalms, like read the Psalm and kind of pray out the different elements or characteristics of God that I saw or different things like that. Just read them and kind of pray them back to him in some ways. And so I'd started doing that and then maybe six months later, I got super sick.
I got COVID and then I ended up getting long COVID and either that or like COVID either triggered an autoimmune condition that I already had or kind of catalyzed it. I don't know if that's the right way. But anyway, I got really sick and I was bedridden for several months. Couldn't get out of bed, couldn't do anything.
My poor husband's like managing our kids, working full time, like cooking dinner, doing everything because I just, I didn't have the energy to like get out of bed and I had no idea when it was going to end. And I remember just like sitting on the sofa in our master bedroom, just like going back to the Psalms, like going back to the rhythm that he already led me in about six months earlier and finding that it was okay to be in pain and bring that to him and finding that it was okay to be a little bit disillusioned and confused and be bringing that to him and that he wasn't afraid of my honesty and that he wasn't afraid of my process or my disappointment. But I really found a new place in his heart in bringing all of that emotion and fear and confusion to him. Like I think that was one of the most profound experiences for me in prayer, just being able to find him in that place.
And he led me in it already, you know, in that new rhythm. And I think that was about six months before I even needed it really. Yeah. Have you ever had times though, when your prayer life felt kind of dry?
Oh my gosh, sure. What do you do during those times, will you feel like, God, are you really out there? Are you listening? Oh my gosh.
I think that it's so, yes, the answer is yes. I've totally felt that. And I think like, I think that part of the normal human condition, you know, first and foremost, that there's always that place of like, wait, what's really happening and which way is north? I'm not super sure.
And I think there, for me in seasons when I've happened, like finding that familiar path that I've already walked that I know this is going to sustain me. I can't give this up because if I do, I'm more lost than I am now. And so I think just continuing in like gratitude, continuing in like, okay, I don't know, but I know that you're still here with me. I know, you know, we just had this crazy rainstorm these last few days.
I know you're in the rain and I know you're in the sunshine after. And I got to trust you because I've already lived rain and I've already lived sunshine. And I'm going to see you in rain and I'm going to see you in sunshine again. It is continuing in that place where it's like feeling dry and crusty or feeling like, is this making any difference at all?
Like trusting in his consistency and faithfulness more than I can trust in my own consistency and faithfulness. That's really good. You know, this past Sunday, it was pouring rain. But I was sitting in the chapel for one of the services and that song from Matt Redmond was ringing my ear, bless up you the name, when the sun shining down on me and the road mark with suffering and the wilderness through the ups and downs, the valleys and mountains.
So that's a really good word of encouragement. So how about in a life group as a life group? Yeah. What encouragement or advice would you give?
Because there's people in our life groups who are unfamiliar or uncomfortable or just inexperienced praying. Totally. How would you help them navigate through that? Yeah, that's so real.
I mean, some people are going to have more fluency with it for sure and other people that's very know and it's nerve-wracking and there could be any number of reasons why someone doesn't want to pray out loud or why someone feels hesitant. It might not be that they're afraid of speaking. It might be that they're afraid of praying. There's just so many reasons.
And so I think just continuing to provide space for people in life group where you're praying or even giving them opportunities that they might feel more safe. And so maybe they want to write down a prayer and read it out. It doesn't make it less sincere. Or praying in pairs might be a better option for them because at least they're praying in front of one person instead of 10 or 12 people.
And just creating safety to just try and try again. And then also creating safety for someone who's not ready to try yet, who's not ready to take that step of faith to pray out loud or even to find that prayer rhythm. Yeah, maybe it feels scary and maybe they just need more time. And that's okay too.
Yeah. Are there any books or resources or things that have helped you in the past in your prayer life or what's the scriptures? Yeah, yeah. I'm a big fan of the scriptures.
I think there's this amazing book called Practicing the Presence of God by Brother Lawrence. It's on Audible. I think you can even get free versions on Kindle too. I'm sure it's at any Christian bookstore.
And so, but he really just walks through what it's like to continue to speak his faith. Every day, washing dishes, every day in the garden, every day. And it's just this beautiful example of inviting him into everything that we do. And there's a real awareness of his presence.
I think there's another book. I was texting my husband earlier. I was like, do you remember that book where the guy says? But there's this one book.
It might be either Dommar Comer or Kylo Statt and both a huge fan. You should look up their book. But he said, every noon, every like 12 p.m. Every day he'll stop.
And he'll just pause whatever he's doing. And he'll just sit there with his hands open and he'll get on his knees in whatever context you've been. And he'll just say, God, I'm made for your presence. And he'll just wait there in silence.
And I was so struck by that. Not only is he stopping and saying like I'm made for your presence, but he's moving his physical posture and carving out time in his day to make space for his presence. And I think that was like I've been so struck by that as well. Just creating space for him.
And I have all these timers on my phone that go throughout the day to remind me to pray for certain things. So that I do just take those two or three minutes. We live in a very fast paced world with so many things coming at us. Particularly in Orchione.
And you're one of the most administrative, organized people I know. Thank you. You and S are like machines. And yet you guys are so intentional about carving out that space.
But like what you're saying about Brother Lawrence, it's understanding that God isn't everything. Yes, we have those times we carve out to connect with him and pray and worship and standing scripture. But when we're out with our friends, when we're doing those, all of that could be a time where we see that God is in it and God is working and moving. So I love that.
So we're going to find out if that's Tyler Staten, you said or John Hartberg. I know I tried to Google it. I'm sorry. We'll do that in the outro.
We'll find out who that is. I recently, I don't know if you know, author named Ken Geyer. He has several books. He's written many books, but I'm reading again his book, A Windows of the Soul.
And he has some other books called Intimate Moments with a Savior. And it's been so rich. I love books from like Philip Yancey or Dallas Willard. We're really talking about our hearts.
Where is our heart with the Lord? Yes. The crazy madness and the pressures that we go through and pulling at us from so many directions. But how are we still before the Lord in his presence in prayer?
And so, yeah, I mean, these are great resources. We would encourage all of our life group leaders to check out as well. Some are in our bookstores and you could also find out where the books are sold. All right.
We're going to just kind of pivot a little bit and get a little more practical. And the topic of just how to engage the different personalities within our group. And we all have different personality types. I don't know if you ever taken the Myers-Briggs.
Yes. I love Myers-Briggs. Yeah. Is that a personality?
It is a personality test. Yeah. It's the four letters. It's one of the original personality tests.
Yes. Where are you? I'm an INFJ. I'm an introverted, intuitive, feeling and perceiving.
Yes. So many things. I'm an ENFP. I can see that about you.
Introvert, introvert, feeler and perceiving. But this one is a little bit more different. You had this in, actually you said it was in the Rooted Workbook and you had also included in the How to Study the Bible. Yeah, the facilitators.
The facilitators guys. And when I saw that I was like, Crystal, talk about this in our future podcast. And so, we'll love for you to speak on just the different styles that we face in our groups. Everyone of course has a little element of each one of these.
Yeah, yeah. No one is solely in one hand. Yeah. But let's talk about the analytical personality.
Yes. She's the analytical one. She's an ISTJ. Okay.
And yes, she loves to. She's extremely gifted administratively. Amazing. A critical analytical thinker, which I'm not.
But how can leaders create a space for people to just process deeply and speak less frequently without letting the conversation stall? Yes. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things there.
I think analytical people can be easily labeled introverts, but they might not necessarily be introverts. I think they're often just people who take a little bit more time. Like I'm an internal processor. Like I just need time to think about that.
And so I think giving time and space for people like the analytical processors or thinkers to just take time to figure out what they really think. And I think when you create that space for them, they're often so rich and so insightful. Like, and there's things that they'll be like, oh my gosh, I literally never thought about that. How do you do that?
And so I think these are the type of people that you want to like in the group chat later that week after life group, hey, what did you guys think? What's God revealing to you about this topic or whatever you guys have discussed? And those are the people that are going to like a week later come back to life group and be like, you know what? I was thinking about this and how this incredible revelation that like hits everybody in this really beautiful way because they had time and space to process that.
And I think like they just need time to feel safe. They just need time to open up. They need time to learn the group and whether the group is going to be able to receive what they're thinking and feeling. And so I think if they don't speak up right away, that's okay.
Just keep asking. Just keep providing that space for them as a leader to know that they can contribute when they go ready. Yeah, that's really good. So it doesn't mean that you don't have something to say.
They may be processing it. And I think what I as a like group leader, what I have noticed is like, not all the time, but sometimes I'll see that person and I'll be like, hey, you know, you have such insightful things to say. What do you think about this passage? And then there's so much that they can share from that.
It's just like Torian doing incredible revelation. Yeah, so that's really good. So that's an analytical personality. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So how can a leader engage the drivers in a way that values their strengths without letting them unintentionally take over or rush the group? Yes, totally.
I think honestly, like drivers are gifted by God either with like teaching, with leadership. There's something in them that just wants to like, like they're get fixated on a direction and they just know instinctively the direction that they want to go or maybe if they don't necessarily know they know how to be able to steer they're on the way. And so I feel like for me when I'm leading groups, I don't necessarily have a problem letting drivers drive a little bit if they're natural, God-given gift. And so I think it's fine if they are like maybe speaking more directly, maybe like giving like quick thoughts.
I think that's fine. I think as leaders we just need to be aware of when they might be like not making space where other people in the group like the analytical ones who might have something to say but there isn't space to say it or maybe who might have something to say in like a little bit more direct tone that might not feel as like welcoming as other personality types want or need. And so I think as a leader like let them go a little bit it's fine but just make sure that it's not at the expense of other members of the group or not make sure that it's or make sure that it's not at the expense of the group dynamic itself. Yeah.
Giving them some garbage. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I love that.
So talk about analytical personality, drivers now about the amiable personalities. We love them. They bring warmth and care to the group. So how can we both support their need for safety and yet gently challenge them toward growth or deeper honesty?
Yeah. Yeah. I think honestly again like all of these personality types have gifts and strengths from God and then almost like a shadow side like the downside of that same gift and I think the strength of an amiable personality is that they're probably driven by compassion and mercy and empathy right? Like there's a deep well of feeling and understanding in them that I think for a lot of people with that they think a lot of people they think everybody thinks like that but it is a unique that God's given a unique gift that God's given them.
So I think these guys just need a lot of time and a lot of like reassurance that this is okay. Like your life group space is a safe place for them and they might honestly be the first one to tip you off that like something's not right in the group or like did you hear how someone said that? I'm not sure that that was like the kindest and it might not even even registered with me but if I sit and think about it I'm like wait actually yeah you might be right you might really be discerning something here I should pay attention to that but then like conversely on the flip side there's probably might be a situation where you need to like help them navigate like oh okay like is this do you feel like a lot of the group feels like this or maybe this is just you you know that they there might be a little bit of extra sensitivity that they carry that might not necessarily be accurate to what's happening but there's so much compassion like God given compassion and mercy and empathy and probably discernment there that they just need a lot of space they just need a hug they're doing great you know like keeping this next a group keep making sure that we're all doing well. That's good yeah which makes me think as you share that like as we think about how we share ownership within the group yeah as a like group leader you're not the only one that's leading but you can get help from your group members of serve champions, prayer champions and based on these personality types and their passions we can encourage them 100% yeah okay let's talk about that last one yeah expressive expressive you bring energy ideas but like what you're talking about the shadow side sometimes they can dominate the group so what are some ways leaders can honor their passion and enthusiasm while ensuring others have a voice too that they can others feel like they can engage in the game.
Yeah yeah yeah yeah I always my husband is super expressive he's like any of grand three the golden retriever never met a stranger like just like he's like the life of the part together he is always got a crazy story always got a funny joke so but I think in his youth he would dominate a conversation or he would dominate a group space you know what I mean and so I think what he's learned over the years I don't want to speak for him but you know like I think an expressive really needs to learn when to speak and when not to speak you know what I mean and when to make space and not to like dominate the group and not share that funny story or not share that funny anecdote but I think also to understanding like they might be a verbal process or they might need time to just arrive at conclusion and giving them that space and other members giving space for expressive to be expressive it's not that they shouldn't be expressive they just learn you learn when and how to be expressive and so let them be the life of the party let them tell all the funny jokes let them you know what I mean shape the fun of your group because fun ultimately builds trust so let them do that but you know you might need to have a conversation later like hey did you notice that you talk 45 ministry I'm not sure if you know what I mean like it's maybe an exaggeration but just helping learn helping them learn self-awareness or even you as the group leader jumping in to be like wow you're so passionate about this I love it let's like just pause on that and come back to the question what do you think so and so and just gently redirecting and gently providing space again for the other group members to jump in so and it's just a self-awareness piece that a lot of expressive people need to learn but they're awesome they're so fun yeah that's true also you shared about Sam your husband what he is he's an expressive can I guess what you are out of these four things analytical drivers amiable and expressive yeah I think you're amiable yeah I would say I'm probably somewhere between amiable and analytical oh yes Esther will often ask me a week before she wants an answer about something what do you think about this oh right yeah so then I have time to kind of sit and process it while I'm driving home or while I'm making dinner whatever and then I'm like yes that is what I think about that and that is the right you know yeah it just takes me time and I need to just make sure that I'm is that what I think yeah I think it's good any final words of encouragement to our listeners about engaging these different personalities now I don't know I think one thing I was thinking that as your group continues to gel continues to form continues to create a group culture that's yours and it comes when everyone bringing their best to the table and everyone's allowed to thrive at their best and then your group goes from a collection of individuals to a group and your group will often have needs just as an individual how can you and I think evaluating what your group needs the same way an individual needs is you need to look at it from the big picture at times as well as the individuals and your group will also take on a personality too and that's okay and so just figuring out what is my group need this week like not just what is it individuals need but what is the group need this week and where's my group at this week and what are they feeling what's the real need here so I think eventually as your group forms and becomes real healthy your group will also take on a personality of a film too and that's fine yeah that's great yeah I mean our group consists of so many different personalities and got this got given us these different gifts and personalities and and and through it all we're supposed to love each other united and appreciate it sometimes the challenge each other is well well this has been a awesome conversation thanks so much for starting here we want to please can you hear me? oh thank you. thank you so much. yes.