Welcome to the Mariners Church Life Group leader podcast. This weekly conversation is designed to equip and resource youth to build a healthy, life group community that studies God's word, practices spiritual rhythms, and changes the world together. I feel like your group is a little messy, or that real change is hard to see. You wonder if there's actually a connection between spiritual community and sequoia trees.
And what are the core elements that make a life group truly healthy and thriving? I'm Scott Ken Co-host of the leader podcast. And today you're in for a treat. I'm sharing my recent conversation with Ed Stetzer, Dean of Talbot Seminary at Biola University, one of our teaching pastors and a leader with incredible wisdom for group life.
And yes, someone who's actively in a life group himself. So let's dive in. Hey, we're so excited to have Ed Stetzer, who is one of our teaching pastors. He's a smaller in residence and the Dean of Talbot Seminary at Biola.
So can we give it up for Ed? Ed? Hey, do you want me to? Okay.
Sounds good. You got to use that mic? Yes. Hold on.
I was wondering if you're me. This is my second time interviewing you. I think we did this before. What did we do this before?
The coexist class. Do you remember that? I do. I had 50 chapters to cover in the Bible that deal with the Habernacle in 32 minutes.
I'm not bitter. Maybe a little. Maybe a little. We did a great job.
We're playing that Chick-fil-A game. So the fun that we talk about. So the fun little fact is I actually had the, you mentioned true Cathy in there. So I had the privilege of training the Cathy family in their local church in small group leadership.
They're small group leaders at their local church. So that's sort of super fun. And was that Douglasville, Georgia? It's no Jones, Jonesboro, Georgia.
It's just a sound of the land. So just fun fact. Wonderful people. They love Jesus and they're in small groups.
Yeah, that's awesome. I was studying in the green room with Ed last weekend as he was in between teaching. And I had asked him, hey, it would be great to have you one day in our life group leader podcast because I know how busy your schedule is. You're always traveling somewhere.
And because we know that you probably can't make it to a huddle. And then he goes, which next huddle? I love to be there. I love to.
I'm going to small man a life group. So I'm going to dumb in America. I said it's next Sunday. And he's like, I'll be there.
So it's really good to have you here. And the reason why we wanted to have. What is the reason why? The reason why is this?
Not only is he a researcher, you've been with Life Way Research. He's done studies with Barnagroup. You were an author. He's an author of Transformational Group.
Which happened to be written with somebody that they know. Who's that? Eric Geiger. Yeah, you go to author with him.
Yeah, you go to prior life. Eric and I wrote it together. I think you wrote this back in 2014. It was before Mariners for either of us.
We were both vice presidents at Life Way to the Time. Yeah. And so it made a deep impact actually on me as I was leading small groups and overseeing groups. But not only are you a researcher and a theologian, an author, but you really practice what you preach and talks about his life group all the time in our all staff meetings.
He's passionate about community. And so that's the reason why to have you here. And talk about this book, but also to talk about your personal group experience as well too. So can we talk about just the beginning of this book?
You do whatever you want. The heart of this book, one of the first things that you say in this book is that in a world that is pushing against community, the church must push for community. So can you just unpack what you mean by that? Yeah, so I do think it's countercultural today.
So I mean, we literally have the world trying to depersonalize itself. So I was just looking earlier today, I texted my daughters, I have three daughters, and I listed Microsoft just did a some of my stuff. I wrote an article on the jobs are going to be limited by AI. Because I'm full of sunshine, I texted them and said, don't date boys with these jobs.
And but all that's depersonalization. So all that is, you know, you go to your bank, they don't want you to talk to somebody, you go to this, they don't want to talk to somebody, go to McDonald's, I don't want to talk to somebody. So I do think and social media kind of drags us into us on a screen. So I do think that the church is called to be a counterculture community for the Kingdom of God.
And one of the ways we do that is actually to say we're not against electrons and avatars, but we want feet and faces. We want people to be together looking at one another, being there for one another. And I think that's that's key. The last church I planted was left at seven years ago, eight years ago.
And I said, you know, I was full time by a life way, you know, here, we're going to our co-vps there. And I said, I'm volunteer, like I'm not paid by the church, I'm a volunteer, so I can do three things I can breach. I knew the staff and I said that I have to meet with my small group, started a small group, and that's where the church came from. I started a small group on our neighborhood and multiplied that small group in another neighborhood.
But that's where we pray together. That's where we walk with one another. And even, you know, here, you know, the last few months, last 18 months, we've had my father's died, my stepfather's died, and my father's all died, last 18 months. I just walk in through, you know, a lot of our small group members are the same age as us, which is young and spry.
So, you know, we walk through the death of several of our parents as well. So that community makes a difference. And for us, you know, just moved in. I mean, it's we actually chose to live.
I look closer to Mariners. I lived at Biola because I said, it was by all this wonderful. We have community there. But the local church community and its expression of small groups are, I think, essential to the spiritual vibrancy of me, Donna.
I know to live the church. Yeah. It was interesting that Eric had mentioned the Sequoia trees in his message today. But in the book, you had talked about this.
You think maybe he got that idea from the book? Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I just say.
There's actually a great picture of it in the ministry center first floor as well too. But can you share a little bit about that connection of spiritual community and these great mighty trees as coit trees? I haven't read that book in five years. So I don't remember the example.
So, but Eric, what Eric just said is true. Yeah. But let me move away from trees because, you know, I'm not an arborist. I don't know much about trees.
Eric, but Eric said today was far more than I know about trees. And like, I want to go find that tree that is like, oh, I googled it. I know where it is now. So it's up in Eugene, Oregon, I think.
Five thousand, no one fine. I said, no, no, little money. So, so here's what we know. So we're in a church that has about 20,000 people attending to weekend all over campus.
There is no scenario that you will intentionally end up in community here by just showing up on weekends. So, and we literally have thousands of people who just show up on weekends. So what that means is there are 30 commands in the New Testament that you are commanded to bear one of those burdens Galatians 6, 2, right? Pray for one to go on.
There are 30 commands in the New Testament you're commanded to do that showing up on a weekend service at Mariners, you cannot do solely with that. Now, I don't think you might find this interesting. I actually don't make the argument that small groups are biblical, like they're biblically required unless you're in a church of over 200 because once you and we're a little over 200. So, once you, so, so, for example, like I'm, I just, I'm going to speak at this.
I'm just emailing somebody in, inviting me this thing to talk about training house church leaders in Africa. I'm probably going to do this. And can I just say they don't need small groups. They literally have thousands of small groups that are multiplying under boneless in Kenya and other places, but they all know one another all in community with one another.
They're all and so they become so California, which of any place I've lived is the most depersonalized place. It might be, you know, might just be over time or becoming more depersonalized, but I moved from Chicago. I grew up outside of New York City. California, for those of you who moved here, is difficult to break in relationally because it's depersonalized.
There's not, you know, I just was back in Wheaton last week and you know, everyone's walking their same downtown talking. Maybe that's, you know, maybe it's that way in some, you know, in San Luis Obisco. I don't know. But, so the great depersonalization that's here and the depersonalization caused by a large church, the only tool we have against that and the only counter cultural means we have to get there is actually through small groups and in a large church, you have to have strategic deployment of those small groups.
I mean, there are literally thousands of people who wash through mariners and statistically, we know Gary MacIntosh from my faculty did a study on this, we're a book called Finding Them Keeping Them, that if people show up, we have between six months and a year to get them in something else other than the gathered worship on the weekend or else they will wash through. And I don't know about you, but I've been in Southern California two years, but I've, you know, preached here for 20 years. There's a lot of wash and back and forth in churches in Southern California. We experience it, others have as well.
It's not all bad. Some people get called to know church. What I would say is we have to think strategically so we can think biblically because the kind of community that is called for a new testament cannot exist in a church our size unless you have some sort of smaller venue to experience that and that's what's going to happen. Yeah.
And that's one of the things that we talk about which rooted in life groups, actually in Patiar, when people are interested, we say, but this is a big church to make pictures feel small, we need to get connected into small groups. And I love those, I love those, they're cliches, but they're cliches. We move people from sitting in rows to sitting in circles, we've got to make a big church wall feel small. And I really like that language and any other language we can use to sort of parallels that.
What happens is that people who wash through, they don't know that they won't stick and stay. So for them, we've got to help them to say, this is what life community looks like. Don't walk through this a lot. Can I talk a little bit about the Sequoia trees?
Why is it really in there? Well, this is a real quick thing. I found it fascinating. I read the time years ago.
Really? You know, all kinds of market is underlined. That was my good book. It wasn't our best.
That's for you. That's the ability now. No, no. No, no.
Okay. More to read. Oh, here you go. There's a Koia trees.
No, I was reading this. I thought that the Sequoia trees had these deep roots. Okay, I remember the story now. You can tell story.
You can tell story. You can tell story. But they're not actually deep roots. The reason why they stand strong and withstand toppling and all those things, you know, forces nature is that these roots are shallow, but they're intermingling.
They're short. They hold each other up. They hold each other up. And I thought that was such a great powerful analogy of what community looks like.
So anyway. Hey, so I just noticed I dedicated this. Don't remember this to the life group leaders at Grace Church. The church plan that I started.
Your sacrifice of willing encourages me and amazes me without you at Grace Church, without being possible. I'm not sure what's going on in the book. The Sequoia tree example is connectedness. But the part of my philosophy in this is that in a church, there is no more important ministry than small groups.
Now, I didn't say it's the most important ministry, but there's nothing that ranks above that. There's probably three or four things that rank with that. But I think part of the challenge is, and we have to, this is where we have sometimes push. We have to say, and we do this, we do this with a rooted as an entry point, but we have to continue to tell story.
So that's why I mentioned this time because I only 32 minutes on the terror network. But but the prior, but the prior, the prior times every time I've mentioned my life group, because what we celebrate, we become, and we have to say to people, this is essential for you. So you don't walk this alone. Because again, you know, Southern California can be, I get, we'll be clear, we're not, we're not lonely, we're connected with people.
We're in a small group. But one of the things that, remember, in the past, we're being eric acid, you know, giving an evaluation of California as a newcomer. And one of the things is people say, overall, we're going to, it's difficult to make relationships. And yet we have the greatest opportunity to do so through the relational doorways through our small group.
So love that, love what you're doing to me. There's no more important ministry at Mariners Church than we do. Yeah, and I love that. And we're going to continue to share stories of transformation.
When you actually send in those group update forms, we read through everything. We read through those stories that you send out. And, and so we want to share that on the weekend. So we do reports like the group leaders turn to reports.
Yeah. So every section we're asking them to just submit stories and pray requests and those things. And that really helps us to be able to tell more stories to others as well. Yeah, I'm actually not the leader of my small group.
So I get to one of the things I insist on is not being a leader because I wanted to be in community and conversation with other people. So I didn't know you feel that reports, but I think it's good. I know it never likes to feel that reports, but that's how you measure the pulse and the health of the the life of the church. I hear that.
I hear that. I hear. Sorry. The Lord is speaking to you today because how do you know the state of your flocks?
The Bible says no to state of your flocks. So how do you as our leader know the state that's going to be through those reporting mechanisms and the challenges everyone kind of likes who's here probably likes a big church. And, but they sometimes want to function like a small church where all this sort of no, but when you get to a large church, you actually have to reports actually are essentially, you didn't think I've been talking about reports today, but reports are essential in a large church. But that's how we communicate with one another.
And the same thing I have about 200 full into part-time employees. And I just emailed some of this. Give me a quarterly report in this case or a monthly report. Then I can know the state of the block.
And we do have coaches who provide care and support as well too. I want to talk about some Ed isms. These are some small pithy things that says. And one of the things you say in this book you say.
You're going to keep quoting things. I don't remember. Yeah. Trees don't move the wind.
And I think I understand what you're saying because the wind moves the tree. But can you share a little bit about explain that a little bit and how it impacts our leadership, spiritual build and so forth. Yeah. So I think the context of that is that the Holy Spirit is going to be at work among these people.
I do think that we should to use the tree example, root our selves together. So it's kind of like this metaphor can be going forever. We root one another together in the local community. And then in a sense, you know, we lift our sails and see what the spirit's doing.
And that's where life change generally happens. So I just finished a research project four months ago with Barnard Group. Right now media, Barnard Group and I was whatever the consultant. And they re-ask the questions from transformation search and every book on it.
But the questions were re-asked and we want to see what changed and what didn't change is and what went up a little bit. Is the number one place life change takes place is in small communities. So and it's actually like not even close. Like if you want to and this is if you want to have Bible city go up, get people in small groups.
If you want to have giving go up, if you have serving go up. So small groups correlates is the second biggest correlation to every other aspect of spiritual formation, the first is reading the Bible regularly. But the second biggest aspect that correlates to every other spiritual growth is small community. So if we have a thriving small group ministry, AmeriCorps, we'll have a thriving church.
If we don't, we won't have a thriving church. Oh, wow. That's good. You also mentioned that in the book, transformational groups have three core elements.
And those are? Talk about the gospel. Yes. Authentic community.
Yes. And mission. Amen. So pretty good.
So praise Jesus. So why is it important? Why does it crucial to have all three elements in our groups? Yeah.
So again, I didn't write this necessarily. Like I don't fully know our strategy or here because I'm sure you bought through a lot of strategy questions. I go to a small group. I bought them a small group.
So so gospel is that which we gather around. So so in other words, we're in gospel community with one another writer. Heber says we're provoking one another to love and good deeds. But we're doing so because of Jesus word on the cross for our sin and in our place.
So the gospel is the gospel centrality of our group. So our groups don't exist primarily to be sort of a list of things people are going through or one others to know what is going through. It's not necessarily communication exchange. That's all part of it.
But the gospel centrality is a big ultimately part of that. So it does require authenticity. Now, you know, we have like at Mary's Church, we go, I mean, rooted goes from like zero to 60 authenticity. So it's you share early and you share a lot and it can be a little stunning for people who are sort of new in that world.
But so authenticity, again, in a place like Southern California, and I'm not like I love Southern California. I shouldn't I'm not trying to be critical. I think all of us would acknowledge that people in Southern California are more likely to have a bit of a distance, a bit of a bit of a harder to get to know context. And there are places that are similar to that around the country.
There are cultures or similar to that. So that authenticity ultimately is there. And then for me, what we did in our small groups, what I recommend that in transition groups is what we call for one is so you would have, you would have, I think it's for my three one, but you have small group meetings and then you would do something together. And then we encouraged our groups to actually continue to do that thing together.
So let's say we were, you know, one of the groups that I was a, this one that multiplied other group I left actually engaged a community care center. It's like, it's like our care center here. And so we would go do things as a group there, but it was kind of our project. So of the group members probably of the 15 of us who attended maybe 10 of us would actually volunteer, not with our group, but we sort of saw our small group adopted as a mission project that cares.
So I think those three things together, otherwise groups become, it's not bad or sinful, but they can become very much solely places of relational encouragement and pastoral care. And I'm not against that. I think that's part of it. But sometimes small groups become holding tanks that sort of flow out of the main service to keep you relationally connected.
That's not a bad thing, but I don't think it's enough. So, so it's not just, hey, make friends. It's make friends around the gospel. We're honest with one another and we're on mission together.
And I think that shapes a small group community differently than the basically the small groups, which is not an uncommon thing. Basically, the small groups are ways to stay socially connected with people because our church is too big to do that on the weekend. So I, that might be a motivation for a lot of people. But I think instead, if I could take the cliche, I don't know if it's cliche, the pithy phrase, move people from sitting in rows to sitting in circles.
I would, which is great. That's the, that's the, the holding tank off of the weekend gathered service. So move people from sitting in rows to sitting in circles to provoking one another love and good deeds. That's the Hebrews pastors, right?
The Hebrews says. So I want to get, I want to get out of the big service into the small community, but then to do those 30 biblical commands in the New Testament to bear one of those birds. Can I just say, like I was just in the, I went at the end of the last service and I took a picture of the end of the last service and not already know what a couple of people in there. The person, if I could put a picture on the screen, I'd say this person here has nothing to do relationally with that person over there in those other.
So we want to break that cycle by moving them into small groups, but if it's just a holding tank off of the weekend service, I don't think we've taken it to the full level of biblical community that 30 New Testament commands are given. And so I think it's moving them from sitting in rows to sitting in circles to provoking one another love and good deeds and speaking to one of those lives. That's great. I want to focus a little bit more on leadership.
Leading isn't easy. You've led small groups. You've led a church, you've led a church with health revitalized churches. And you talk about in the book, empowering leaders, encouraging leaders and holding leaders accountable.
And so what does that look like in a healthy discipleship environment? Like inside the group, not just are you holding leaders here or coaching us holding leaders accountable, but the group members. Yeah. Yeah.
So it's a good question. So Mariners doesn't have membership, which is a sensor as a thought. So the closest thing we have to the covenant community described in the New Testament is actually small groups. So in the New Testament, there are two times that it mentions people being on the list.
So there's a list, there's a list of people who are who are in some sort of community. Now back then they're all house churches. They were no buildings. So, but how's it's going to be pretty big?
So it could be 50 people. But people were on a list. So somebody, if you have a list, like I have a list, I'm keeping track of things. So I think what small groups do is they keep track of people.
And in the New Testament, I had a list and they would say, in this case it was widows and they said, let's make sure these widows are on the list are taken care of. So I'd say you're taking on a sacred responsibility to some degree where you're saying they're on my list. And can I just say it's good that they're on somebody's list to say these people are not going to fall through the cracks. These people, if they're struggling, I'm going to reach out to them.
If they're in a difficult spot, we're going to try to engage them. So I think it's this is the closest thing we have to membership where we're basically saying you're with us and we're not going to let you fall through the cracks or fall back. And so I think that's a pretty sacred responsibility. So in the New Testament, I mean, you're probably the closest thing we have to the pastors described in the New Testament because all those were house churches, right?
So when Paul, the end of Romans is writing those people, it's like a church in their house. So that would be you, like many of you hosted in your home, is a church in your house. And so that's your role. So like I'm a pastor here and Eric's a senior pastor here, but nobody had a church like this.
Well, 5,000 came to Christ on one day and they did not form a church. They formed, they went into house churches. So, so, so I think that the accountability here is probably like in the New Testament, like in the first Corinthians 5, 9, it actually says that they would remove somebody or discipline somebody at a life of the church. That's probably not the level of engagement that you would have.
But to make sure that somebody's cared for, somebody's heard, somebody's on the journey, someone's not dropping out or falling behind or left in the cracks, I think that kind of accountability really matters. Now, it's a pain sometimes, right? So, but you know, for you looking, I don't know if we report like who's in the meetings or whatever. But if you notice somebody being missing, then call them, engage them, go to coffee with them.
But it can be exhausting, pastoring, shepherding people. It is a, it's a responsibility. It sometimes feels like a burden. But it's always important.
Yeah. And it is a big responsibility. And I think when we talk about encouragement and empowering for you to know, and I hope you all know that we love you and we care for you. We're cheering you on.
When we say that you guys are the most important, we don't want to put, I guess, I'll hire you. But you're, you're invested in all of you here in this room. And we want to see more people come to our huddles, see you get connected coaches and equipment, encourage you so that you can lead with confidence and I'm not sure it came with the hierarchy. So we're clear.
There's no important ministry in the life of our church than small groups. And there's no important, more important leadership role in the life of our church among volunteers and small leaders. So I really do think that. So, and I can show you statistically, and I just did a webinar in the center of your interest at the Google Small Bridge, Ed, Stetster, Barna, this whole webinar on this.
And I can show you statistically. Now, you know, I mean, statistically is great. But just biblically, you just, how does somebody bear it when those burdens, when they're, that picture I just took when they're 2000 people between them and you and nobody's engaged in them within the community. So that's how essential this role is.
It's literally, you can't do with the Bible teachers about small groups in a church or size. That's awesome. Final question. I should do more questions.
We talk about you talked about your, your group. If you can share a little bit about your group. When we're in the green room, and it's like, Hey Scott, you know, my group is weird. So that's perfect.
Wow. Because every group is weird. Right. Great conversations.
Sorry. That's all good. And my group's a little weird. It's, first of all, we probably like a lot of them.
We haven't been great over the summer. Don't worry. That's, that's, that's normal. I could take a break.
Yeah. But come back strong. We didn't take a break. We just had, we just, we just had the beach, do a little hangout at the beach.
Only in Southern California does your small group go to the beach. So we went over to Newport Beach and most roasted Smellows and stuff like that. Yeah. So I think there's a lot of similarity in our group.
Demographically, in other words, we're all, we're all about, I mean, not the same age, but we all have kids that are almost or often empty nesters and most of us do. At Asian parents. So it's sort of some common alley. That's not always the case.
Sometimes it is. I think for our group is probably weird because I'm in it in one place that makes it weird. And I really was really clear with everybody else. Like I don't want every time somebody asked a Bible question.
I don't want everybody to turn to me and say what is that says or that. So I recognize that I do change the dynamic in by being there. What do you do when they, when they look to you? I tell them, I tell them I don't, I don't say it anymore.
I would be great if somebody else shared their thoughts on that subject. So because I get that on the Dean of a Seminary, whatever. But but there are people in my group, like we have like we got former former, former athletes, we got former athletes and we got electricians and we got, and we got state home moms and we got realtors and all this sort of stuff. And so like they need to process through any way the way you learn in a small group setting is to talk.
Yeah. And if you always turn somebody and say what does the person who has the degree say then they don't get to process this as well. So so it's probably that's part of the vine that makes it a little bit weird. Also too, like one of the things that I'm not used to is that we have people in our life group who are not part of Mariners Church.
So I'm used to sort of like, like a small group being of a church. But Mariners, I'm guessing some of you have that as well. It's not bad. We have a nice community that's there.
Most of us are Mariners people. The leaders are Mariners people. So those are probably some of the some of the weird things bowling, which seem a little weird. And I got bowling bowling bowling bowling.
Can we talk to somebody? Can I actually tell you brother I came in and I I was like, I got to strike the first thing. And then I got to spare the second thing and everyone's looking at me like I'm like I'm this amazing pro. And then I couldn't get another ball down that lane for three games.
So everyone's like, since then I think I got like a 70 or something. I was really very into bowling. It was really a disaster. And my wife's like, when I start like, you know, first three, she's like, what has happened?
Have you been secretly practicing? It was all providential. But it was pretty funny. So, you know, we do stuff like that.
And yeah, so that's probably a little different. At any final words of encouragement to all of our amazing leaders who are just pouring in to these. Yeah, I would just encourage you having been like I've been in small groups for 30 plus years. And some of you have it too.
So we're all worth that journey is meetings like this are great. You get here for me and and and we're book and maybe that's information is fine helpful or you hear these great stories. Most of what you do is actually kind of a long, sometimes challenging slog of relationships. So, so I don't say that in a bad way, but it's sometimes it's easy to say, I just want the highlights, right?
You have the highlights, you got to walk through the lights and you got to have the mid lights and you got to kind of make this journey together. So, you know, for me, like I still keep in touch with people from my small group, my last two churches small groups, but that took a long time. And it's, it's, there's an expression that Eugene Peterson wrote, well, it's a forward to book. And it's a, it's long obedience in the same direction, which I really think is a great, it's about discipleship discipleship is long obedience in the same direction.
And I think effective small group ministry is long community in the same direction. And it takes time to get there. Not everyone finishes with you. And that's okay.
But walking that journey with people long term centered around the gospel with authentic community and on mission, I think builds the kind of community that, you know, when I when I teach a preach on this, I, I show a series of video clips. I don't think I've ever talked to our smart leaders. So, yeah. So, um, I was just watching the season finale, the series finale of Star Trek Discovery.
And there's a recurring, you did too. Okay. A little bit. A little, a little.
There you go. There's a little bit, did premiere on September 8, 1966, not all the details. But at the end of the series, right, they're all going to die and they go into whatever this battle. And so they, they turn to one another and they say, it's been an honor served with you.
They say the honors all mine. So I actually found clips from six different, not Star Trek movies, but like it's in the X men. It's in, it's in like a Western, I forget the Western West, but it all popular movies, you would know that at the end, right, they're about to go into battle. They turn to one there because they're all going to die or they think they're going to die.
It's been an honor to serve with you. And for me, I just want to have a group of people that if I move away or we all go on to be with the Lord that we can say, and it's been an honor to serve with you to be with you on this journey. And I found that a lot of people have a lot of men don't have that. Like, you know, I mean, just, I mean, making friends in your, in your 30s for men is going to be really challenging hard.
These are places we can say has been an honor served with you Scott. Let's, let's go on and do this together. Now I'm not there with my current group. We've only been together for a year or so.
But that's how you get there. Long community in the same direction leads to the kind of 21 other things. Well, Ed, it's been an honor serving with you. Can we give it up, Brad?