Welcome back to the new thinkery. My name is David Barr. I'm looking as always is my good friend Alex pretty how are you Alex? I'm doing well.
How are you my godless son of my friend? Which one of us are you talking to there? I think but they have place equally I see I'm doing well. So you're enjoying your new home I am I am I am I guess right now recording is this our first recording?
Maybe I think you were in the process of moving last time. I've been in the woods. I have some nice folks Did you invite them to those parties where you put your party? No, yeah, you put your keys in a jar and then everybody picks a different key in Yeah, those things you did in Boulder New Orleans party.
Oh, that's right. That was in the past like and a speaking of a book of party's in animals How are you doing right Greg's doing great? Hey on it from the world headquarter of nice people don't forget about that national No, nothing like Boulder No, and so today I think we're all excited to have our guest Bernard Dobsky He has to call him BJ and the J stands for justice Right, who stands for Bernard justice Dobsky, which is a fine name We're talking about the Thucyndides archaeology, but I think some of our listeners will have encountered some of BJ's work He's edited to really really find volumes on Shakespeare along with Dustin Gish With the title of one is souls with longing representations of honor and love and Shakespeare and the second is Shakespeare in the body politics So as it she experienced he's top rate in a previous life And I think you're a little off to ask him going forward what his scholarly plans are But I believe BJ you brought your dissertation on book one Thucyndides. Is that correct?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah under a big segment at Michigan State Yeah, so previous life Thucyndides scholarship But got turned on to Shakespeare partly by David Lawenthal Largely by David Lawenthal, but yeah, so you were an undergrad at Boston College is that where you guys write? Yeah, I took I took two classes on Shakespeare with David back then And you know the early 90s, which now seems like I recognize it's another century But yeah, so had classes there but David actually after he left Boston College went to Holy Cross taught Shakespeare Then left Holy Cross and went to Assumption College and taught Shakespeare Kind of like the Johnny Appleseed with Shakespeare studies And then you know we left Assumption and went to teach somewhere else But we had then of course own Shakespeare's politics That no one was teaching after David left and when I came along I was able to to teach it and that that was kind of what would really got me going You know having to teach it Yeah, got me into Shakespeare series folks folks who know at home I'm Ashland at home to the Johnny Appleseed Heritage Center because this is where he cleansed all of his apple trees So just a little interesting connection there David loves it when I'm dropping actions to how great Ashland Ohio is Yeah How like rigorous the program is that do they have a blue ox biology center? That's right.
I was at NIU. It's like you drive into the cabin It said you know home of barbed wire inventor I'm used to living in desolate places. Yeah, DJ. Why are we talking about Thucydides today other than we might be in a tight pinch But are you do you have anything on the horizon with him or is it just I mean this has to be a work that you just come back to for pleasure Yeah, I mean, this is this is something you know, look at a small department at Assumption University So you become kind of a jack of all trades.
So, um, you know, I came out of grad school with a dissertation on Thucydides And at a place like Assumption College that that qualified you to teach your national relations Um, so it makes perfect sense if for to a particular understanding of the study of politics It actually does make a lot of sense. Certainly not an understanding that that's widely shared today But you know in some of my international relations classes I draw on him regularly Um, but really the interest in Thucydides is a timeless right? I just wanted to understand myself more I mean as a young man, um, I was really gripped by his account of political life Uh, and and kept encountering things in Thucydides that I would find elsewhere and play to in Aristotle But all right, there's a lot more than just you know, I mean aside from the fact that the story's on its face gripping dramatic filled with pathos, um, some humor and tragedy Uh, it's also Impositely deep or seemingly possibly deep. Um, and really quite wise So in terms of my active scholarship, you know, I kind of put Thucydides stuff on hold in terms of my reading and my thinking He's never far far from my mind.
Um, you know, there's always funny by the way when you get, you know A certain crisis will pop up and everyone uh, and maybe international relations studies goes running for their Thucydides and And you see Graham Allison doing this, um, quite often sometimes, uh, David Goldman actually what they were Are they like the Thucydides trap and all that? Yeah, that's that's Graham Allison. Yeah, um, you know, and so there's always something going on in International relations that can be illuminated by, uh, recourse to Thucydides magisterial work Um, but but that's not really why we we keep him around, right? We keep him around because he's he's timeless and he's got a human wisdom not because he helps us But I don't understand the power dynamics between, you know, Hong Kong and China Yeah, I uh, I whenever I teach Thucydides, which is I usually use them as a backdrop for Plato I'll get some selections that are appropriate to the dialogue at hand And I give the this page of quotes and it's a quote from Hobbes' introduction to his translation a quote from Uh, Rousseau.
He has that brilliant appraisal of him and then a quote from Nietzsche as well And all of them praise his ability to instruct his factuality his realism But not realism in the way that people think oh he just agrees with like the Athenians at milos No, his his ability to realistically show what political life is like and bring you in there And it's just it's just amazing how an author can be still moving for Hobbes who's you know arguably the founder of liberalism You know, uh, Rousseau is a founder of a kind of communitarianism or socialism and you know It is also communist but uh and then nicha who's kind of lurking in the shadows of fascism, right? And you get this you get the sense that whatever this guy has he's he's uh of such political depth that he can appeal to all these figures or modern figures but also classical figures as well You get the sense that he was quite popular and and revered then as well I mean that so when he you know, we're gonna talk about the archaeology how he says he's going to his possession for all time But you get a sense that you know, that's not just you know him, you know Sort of uh, preening himself. Yeah, he really has proven that in the 2000 plus years So okay So so if I could just jump in on that because that was one of the things that really struck me when As you know, man it first encountered the city's work because you know in many ways He's pressing throughout the work, but when it comes to kind of explicit statements Thucydides is remarkably reserved I mean, but reticence is his his defining trait He's always behind things always that are removed and so he's a man of this incredible modesty and moderation and then he comes out But I'm writing this as a possession for all time as you said He's not just preening himself this isn't a braggadocio He may go on it 2500 years later. We're still turning this.
I mean the I mean, that's a hubris. It's not arrogance cuz he backed it up right? He was actually was right to have that knowledge that and even in the arky in the archaeology that we're discussing today and he takes You don't have to read it too deeply to uh to see who he's taking aim at. I mean, it's right right at homework frankly Oh, though that that great those two great works you read now They pale in comparison in a material way To the forces amassed in this war But really quick dee-joo we should I mean who was Thucydides?
Can't tell us just very briefly about this is our I think our first episode on the guy Yeah, okay So so Thucydides was I mean shockingly we don't know terribly much about his life Right for someone who wrote so much about others and is the key guide to our understanding of people like paricles or klion or Demosthenes or brassis. We don't know a ton about him But all right a fifth century Athenian son of allores you wrote rose to the to the ranks of a general Uh fought for Athens if you read his his account of his activities at amphibolis the city he lost to brassis You see whether that's a big big loss for the city of Athens since the silver mines and amphibolis were more kind of critical crucial pillar to her uh financial fortunes um But actually saved another city from falling to brassis so it was was fairly successful general But then exile for losing amphibolis to brassis went into you know went into axile left Athens Uh spent time traveling throughout greece You know you could imagine this time he was certainly doing his research and collecting accounts From the major players involved in the pelipanishin war right was able to get both sides Right, so he wasn't just an Athenian who was writing an Athenian brief or Athenian adriprop in the the pelipanishin war But was actually able to go out and um really get both sides or all sides I should say and and on that I want to come back to that because what Thucydides was doing in his historiography is far more interesting than merely uh, you know collecting the facts or kind of you know rank journalism 101 But was that actually brought back to Athens? Um near the end of the war. I didn't serve for Athens again I don't have a really good uh date for his death But what you have is is someone who you know spends his life writing uh after serving the city in this political uh this political office So the office of general uh spends the rest of his life writing um, you know I like to call the history one big book, but really it's eight big books Right and and he puts together something that's that's really quite exquisite and something that I think it Anyway stands up to the kind of scrutiny one one could give to a platonic dialogue or as anaphonic dialogue or or air styles Treatises, you know, it's it's it's really I mean really is that you know, you may go on that that most of possession for all time So, um we have I think any that the text itself um the old they're like eight manuscripts complete manuscripts that go back to something like 900 ad right, so it's it's um You know, it's we don't we don't obviously know original uh copies of the text They're they're quite far along some 13 hundred years Um after it was composed, but but there are eight from which these uh like to the power and jones, you know, greek the kind of standard greek Text that one consults, uh when working from two cities Uh those eight would be compiled from the or with the johnson power would be compiled from those eight Okay, and this is his book, um, which we should you know folks just call the peltanition war It covers for the most part the entire peltanition war doesn't quite get the whole thing.
Oh, right? So sorry about that. Yes So wait, but no, that's okay because greg what what comes after who's the historian that I was gonna save that question for a little later Is that a win selenica which I have not And um, this might be a place, uh, would you like some would your would your audience like some background Or a peltanition war sure sure My question for you was gonna be I mean you're talking about how his book is so impressive and it's a possession for all time But it seems to be predicated upon the notion that this war was particularly somehow noteworthy itself So the material that he had to write about was he calls it and I can ask you what translation you use actually He calls it the greatest motion the world they're ever seen or something like this. I guess they can use this.
Yeah, um, I actually just picked up the kambridge Jeremy, why not not this is gonna get this was certainly the greatest ever upheaval among the greeks. Oh, that's that's yeah, that's not quite right. No, no, no, that's that's I mean Well, uh, one of the stories I like to talk having worked on Thucydides for a long time is Greek is enormously difficult speeches are extremely hard Um to work through, uh, you know when i'm translating them i've got i've got a translation nearby to consult multiple translations I've got grammar books all over the place, right? I you know I need to know more french and german to be able to really pull these things off I mean, so the story I like to tell about reading Thucydides Greek is from sissimo, right?
who not only New ancient greek but New ancient greeks right and sistro Complain that the difficulty of Thucydides speeches of travangim, but Greek, um, they're very very difficult Right, there are reasons why when you're starting out on greek 101 you're using plateaus apology and not paraclically's funeral oration fair enough, um But they so to to go back to the the the Peloponnesian war Um, right we have this work we call it the history of the Peloponnesian war, but the word was given no title no formal title right by Thucydides But what the Greek word for history is story eight does not show up in the text Thucydides opening sentence simply says that Thucydides and Athenians wrote or composed of the war Between the you know, lassimonians and the Athenians Um, and beginning as soon as the war began which is quite odd right because the actual account of the war That he's going to tell us doesn't begin in del book two which means that book one was written much later than book two And in fact as the opening of the first two sentences of Thucydides text reveals he's writing this after the war's ended He's writing this opening afterwards ended So, you know this magnificent magisterial Eight book count of the Peloponnesian war, I tells the story of the the war between spartan her allies and Athens and her maritime empire It gets through 21 years of a 27 year war It ends with a grammatically incomplete sentence Um, this is intentional right this is not evidence of the manuscript being defective or corrupt in some way or that Thucydides Obviously got a heart attack midway through that sentence right I mean obviously he didn't So, uh, it's it's a bit of a puzzle right and it's certainly an ending Greg is here familiar with Senefan, selenica that that zenefan engages in his own account of the end of the war and then brek affairs as they occur Years after that, so it's you know, it ends Thucydides account ends on a high note right the Athenians ultimately lose the war to spartan Um, but in Thucydides account Athens is just achieved a very important victory at kenasama It's fortune steam on the upswing al-sabaidis is run kind of brought back into the fold He's leading Athenian affairs in the Aegean Athenian domestic unrest which has been plaguing the city for some time now and he's gotten quite bad in the last Um few years certainly since the end of the Sicilian disastrous Sicilian campaign and the oligarchic coup of 411 You know, there's there's a kind of harmony that's resulted in this new regime at the in the regime of the 5000 Um, so, you know, it looks like Athens is going to turn it around, you know now Thucydides has already told us, you know that Athens is going to lose the war But a bull gans with with a bit of a bit of optimism, you know, I've said this many many times to different people But every time I read this book I think this time This time they're gonna get it right this time they're gonna push, you know, nikias off a cliff Or this time they'll make sure they don't go to Sicily or this time they make sure they take enough horses to Sicily to leave us a bidis in charge Two tips two tips bj one, uh, maybe dabble in some fanfic or two Doctor, I think you got a memory problem Let me let's go back to that was saying maybe you have a memory problem you should see a doctor Oh, because I think they're going to wait Maybe that's part of the power of Thucydides Uh, the history out of you get too swept up in this So can I let's get back to the archaeology We've talked a lot sort of in a call back, but it was the kind of the beginnings the origins, right? So the origins but also the first things the rule of principles. Yeah, exactly So it starts off so we've talked about how it's a possession for all time and he says this right is this I think section 22, right? And he says, um, it's a possession all time and the reason for that part of the reason is that he hasn't embellished things at all Right, he's not like the poets or I think he also might have a lot of this in mind, right?
I'm not making my narrative more beautiful. I'm gonna keep it really spare And one of the things you pointed out in your notes you sent to us is The importance of the the account of nudity in section six or chapter six of book one And seems like in a way Thucydides is the peak of Athenian right because he's stripping right? He'll show you it'll show you the Athenian body politic works and all right just like you know He'll show you works and all if you're working out together. Um, so I thought I thought maybe we could we could start there with Because you're right.
This is not some sort of Athenian, you know propaganda, right? Just trying to I mean, he's very critical of the Athenians on the one on the other hand That's being super critical and super open is a kind of Athenian virtue, right? So he's in a way most Athenian is criticism of the Athenian So maybe you could talk a little bit about this because his practice right is the quintessential Greek practice And there's a lot of talk of Greeks and barbarians. So maybe we can we can work our way around that Yeah, well, I mean so I mean there actually at least two things you brought up that I want to keep separate one is what Thucydides is doing what the Athenians are doing Um Thucydides effort at self disclosure or self revelation is incredibly complex Um, you know, it's a character dot.
It's I say his character dot is right. You know, there's no historical record of this particular actor The gift of Zeus shows up at just the right time to deliver a speech that that's you know, spares the population on my leaning from the terrible decree passed by clean on the day before Diomedes makes a really powerful case for the four line to people to serve their interests and I think Thucydides Engages in very selective self disclosure in a way in a way look that the aims are the same in terms of the Athenian The Greek wrestlers or Athens in her speeches And and Thucydides in his work he wants to reveal something about himself and about about the truth about political and human life The Athenians however and the Greek wrestlers adopt a kind of candor Or insist on a kind of explicitness about their openness that I think is a form of hyperbole or overstatement That distorts what they seek to reveal and this is this may sound like whoa hopelessly abstract, right? Um But I so maybe maybe it would help to go back and talk about the section at one six where Thucydides begins, you know He's making this he opens his work by making really big claims about the the work he's he's gonna compose the war he's writing and And and you know, it's the most memorable thing that's ever happened It's the greatest motion of that's ever occurred among the Greeks of the barbarians. Wow.
And what does his greatness consist? Why should the Greeks be such an important focus for Thucydides as distinct from the barbarians right? So the first few chapters he's showing that there were there were no Greeks there was no Greeks there was no there were no Right in that way the early what we would call the early Greeks were no different from the barbarians There was no point of disneyam right barbarian was a point of distinction yet So when does it become a point of distinction? It seems that Thucydides really places a lot of emphasis on on these unique or distinctively Greek practices one of which is wrestling in the nude right exercising kind of engaging in insetipity and Why should that be important and he draws a distinction there between the barbarian practice which is you know Gressing with one's clothes on one shorts on one britches whatever And why should that be a really important thing and it seems as though he's emphasizing that in parts of the manner of the way in which the Greeks are competing Right, it's not just winning at all costs and getting ahold of the prices But how one gets the prizes that matters and in this case the how involves a kind of self-disclosure Let me take all of those things that come from convention that come from custom that could feel my nature And let me set them aside and for the purposes of this exercise and enter the ring as quote unquote god made me I'm you know here I am as a you know, I have given him the hands of nature To contest with you and that that strikes me very much as You know someone could say what's the difference between that and just you know knocking someone out while you're wearing shorts You know what what's the difference there?
I think the difference there is something like I'm going to assert a claim before we even engage in this contest I am better than you and look at me Look at me. I am at the hands of nature. I'm naturally superior to this has nothing to do with the wealth I might or might not have inherited right? This is nothing to do with the customs of my city.
This is my nature and and and and so Right involves a kind of self-disclosure I'm on you know when I read this passage I sometimes think of the great Milo the great wrestler Who you know, I think in his later years in later Olympians Lemias when he entered the ring that he won by by default right the company doesn't simply said no Moss, right? We're just we're not even gonna bother here because you're the man And I think there's something like that involved that there's an act of self-assertion here in disclosing oneself and revealing oneself in this way It's it's not simply that I want to get the goods for myself so I can walk off with this basket of apples or this you know This this wreath of gold or whatever of you know that the laurels something like that It's it's I want to show you that I'm deserving of this victory. I think that's how Greg is that dissertation defense, right? Nude Yeah, well you never talked about this the other day Alex, but with respect to Herodotus there's something about this There's some connection between the Greek nudity and philosophy right this sort of and you mentioned custom a few times The clothes are kind of custom and I wonder if there's some way in which the city is previewing here The ways in which the Athenians really were remarkably different We'll get this later right with the um, you know tearing down the walls and making boats and these kinds of things But like the really really unconventional character of the Athenians then this driving for what's natural what else?
I'm so what's so what's so remarkable is this is a custom right so it's it's making a system custom Yeah, so it's it's there. You know, it's not like one guy does it and then I was like, huh? Hey, wow, that's pretty You know literally ballsy, but it's it's actually that everybody does this right you're expected to do this and this is a but but it speaks I think but I mean that's what you're getting at BJ when you were pointing out that in a way if you sit it It's showing you easier said than done right if you really want to strip It requires a kind of concealment or when you're putting yourself forward as here I am like here's my self assertion It doesn't hide the fact that the rest of the time you wear clothes that they takes courage, right? And that's a and also that you're being forced to by the polis to a certain extent to do this It shows you that it's not really the sort of self assertion Do cities however asserts himself in his very active concealment of hiding himself not moralizing or giving law giving choice and often very Almost xenophonic praise right?
Uh, sort of selective praise or highly qualified praise that makes you see that he's it's a it's a much different mode of instruction But in a way that's he's in a way bare and more realistic as a result Right rather than giving you speeches about what things needs he teaches you how to judge that on your own do is sort of composition Right. Yeah, and you know, it's one of those things, you know where where he like a lot of the Authors you read, you know, they're the seemingly innocuous or seemingly irrelevant decides or details that are just thrown in You know, how does one follow from the other? I don't get that. Well, you know, I don't know He's just a historiographer So, you know, he's just concluding the details because that's what you do and of course that simply not okay, right?
Um and on the issue of concealment and revelation or disclosure and concealment right after this this Regressling, you know, comment he talks about Spartan concealment and that the Spartan great actively, uh, don't wear don't choose to display Uh, uh, sartorial, you know, there's artorial splendor evidence of their their magnificent. Well, um in an effort to tend to the common good, right? They don't want to certainly uh excite the jealousy of those who are poor those fartons who don't have their their wealth um, but in doing that they Establish their superiority to their riches because they don't need to show them off and thereby legitimize their superiority and the ranks of their fellow Spartans so there's a kind of there's a kind of Concealment that serves the purposes of self revelation Here look at how good I am because I can voluntarily forego the lavish display of the wealth that I so clearly possess but can do without I'm not gonna show it off I'm not gonna be extravagant though. I can choose to view people or you're wearing these clothes as you have to Right your subject to necessity.
I have sparked wealthy and free to act this way and that freedom is the sign of my superiority and thus legitimizing my power over you And so there's a way in which attention or service to the common good serves the interest of the particular individual here So it's concealment in the cause or service of a kind of self revelation. I think Thucydides is even you know his his The extent to which he reveals things to his readers is even more um careful more complicated than that So, uh, let's let's transition a little bit to the greatness of the war And uh, we were talking a little bit before right he calls it the greatest kinesis and I think Hobbes does it as commotion Greg you were looking something said upheaval. Yeah people. That's the new um kimberge translation Jeremy mine on but um and Bejorie market is motion we have to you know, I'm salty tier for that right right The greatest movement in the soul what translation do you use me jayman?
So I just for today I was reading up on the strastler the landmark Thucydides Um, but okay, so you know, it's it's as far as readable Translation scope that's pretty good. I actually like the hobs quite a bit Hobbes makes Hobbes makes some weird choices like tyranny gets retranslated as like monarchy Um, I wonder why I yeah Well, there is no such thing as tyranny that's right. So he makes them actually but but by and large I mean his his english is pretty dang darn faithful to the structure of the big sentence. It's true.
Um, so it's you know, it's it's very good It's very good. Yeah, so one thing I realized I taught a little bit actually in a philosophy course this uh semester which uh Is unusual to teach these out these you know, it crosses a lot of boundaries But one of them is not really philosophy, but I was teaching with the priest of Christ I'm struck that Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but it struck me that this claimed that this war was the greatest motion right? Um can be taken one is this is the greatest war obviously He means that but it could also be him saying that in a way the war is the greatest kind of motion that can happen simply and it might be An argument against these priests of credits who are looking at the motions of the heavenly bodies are at earthquakes and floods and and you know It's an effort to look at something more human as in a way more fundamental I'm not sure if that's right, but maybe just talk about what made the war so great what he means by a great motion at all and Because obviously this is just to keep this connection present in our listeners mind Obviously this is somehow connected to how it's a possession for all time right if this is the greatest thing that's happened So far and possibly he hedges on this right right rightly But possibly the greatest thing that could happen then obviously that's the opportunity that allows us to write this this great work This possession for all time. Yeah, so um, look, I'm I don't limit my textual remarks here to the archaeology Um, but in terms of the greatness of war, I mean Thucydides initially seems to be justifying in the grounds of you know Largest number of combatants, right?
Everyone's getting involved on this You know in the greek world and even the barbarian world everyone's jumping in on this lots of money Everyone's at the peak of their preparedness and their wealth and so on All of the battles and as much greater than anything that happened before right? And and and so you know to justify this claim he goes on a kind of engagement with The Trojan war which was the big event for the greeks prior to this and of course, you know There's that one small thing called the Persian war right and by the early dismissive of the Persian war Right so he's all this emphasis on a mile of people involved in the in the Peloponnesian war Uh, and then just kind of forgets to engage harata. Just as you know, okay, maybe they're admittedly outrageous You know a million versions coming over all right. Let's say it was 300,000.
It's still absolutely massive, right? That wasn't even engaging. It doesn't even engage these like it was two battles. What's the big deal?
Yeah, he was at two by land two by c the end He literally just wipes it under the rug and of course he's gonna come back to it later because he knows it's much more important than he's letting on here Um, and it's certainly massively important for the Athenians and their self understanding right their political psychology But but the real challenger is of course homer in the Trojan war This is this is the one he's got to take on here and of course It's an account that I find utterly on persuasive and it's so bad that it could only be intentional You know Just to mention one point now the most the glaring Most visible piece of the problematic account is when he talks about the the the smallness of the size You know, so they were greeks at this point right they had no common name. They were they were Forced or compelled by Agamemnon because they so feared his mighty awesome power That they were compelled to go on this decade-long expedition Um, and and because they were poor he really didn't have a lot of ships and a lot of resources So, you know, you know, let's just grant home to benefit the doubt and say there were 1200 ships And we'll take the greatest number which was what he seems like a 120 and the smallest number which is 50 and average it, you know, and that's 85 okay And if you just do the math, he says you see the number that you come to is not very great But it comes to over a hundred thousand people Right, you know, very great. It's absolutely you know If you believe it's absolutely known as the thing that what we're talking like 12th 13th century BC 100 000 people are going to to get in these tiny little boats and go away They use my iron plate for 10 years because they somehow fear Agamemnon. It's absolute nonsense Now he and he made my way he says oh and it was so poor Right that they had to split the initial landing force because they didn't have enough resources to supply themselves when they initially landed at dillium So 50 000 men go to the personies and farm for a decade To support the fighting force that this it simply defies Credulium here right to think that for 10 years 50 000 men so feared the power of Agamemnon that they would farm foreign land for a decade away from their own forms and families because they feared a power of a king who was not even around So so to what end is Thucydides being such a big fat liar?
I think ways to I mean clearly and I think Thucydides readers you know this other day would be like this is not the whole america come It all you're deliberately abstracting from the biggest thing here, right? Which is the story of the gods right? The big sense to which the gods are getting involved in sighted with the Greece against the barbarians or not Starting with the the Greece against the trotus this is the story of divine justice This is a story about oh this is a story about you know sacrificial emotions a story about love This is a story about those higher elements of the soul that allow one to give their lives to somewhere or something else And he's completely abstracted from that in a way that's so falsifiable. It's laughable And so Homer doesn't stand you know, uh discredited or refuted he not even dressed So Homer continues to work in the background, right?
And then when you think you know if we go back to this issue of the greatness of the Greeks again someone's gonna Well, you know the the Greeks were at the peak of their power Now we're cooking with gaps, right? Let's talk about power in the archaeology. What does power really mean? And so he has all these you know, we see these metrics these are the the tachmerion, right?
This evidence that he's combining together, but you'll see he puts Comes up with a list of a lot of cities that are really really wealthy and they do nothing They do nothing they grow in wealth They get their ships and they order all themselves and they do nothing worthy of memory So it can't just be about wealth and it can't just be about the accumulation of ships It's gotta be about something else And so when he's talking about power and he at one point thinks this is in chapter 18 He points to the power of the Spartans and he talks about the stability of their regime and the length of which the four centuries They had good laws talks about their powers distinct from the visible trappings of their power, right? So when he says, you know, if you look at Athens, you know 2500 years from now and you see that the evidence in this little people Podcast will be able to see this by the the Parthenon, right? The ruins of the Parthenon up behind you You go look at the Parthenon you go look at the Cropolis. You're thinking my god the Athenians were twice As powerful as they really were you go as far to you go as far today.
There's nothing there for me Just like there's like a grassy gnoll they got a little a little sign that says you know here was ancient Sparta the end right? They like got them nothing except they were enormously powerful So you can't reduce power to these more tangible visible signs like wealth like ships like number of men It has to reside in the power of their laws of their regime and the regime is power derives from its source or its origin the belief in its source for its origin Right, so the Spartans thought well, you know and by the way Thucydides makes this this passing reference to Agamemnon Of many aisles and all of our ghosts came that comes from as you guys know book two of of the ilead And it's taken out of a section where Homer is describing the origins of Agamemnon's scepter coming from you know Made by the feistice given the Zeus and then Zeus hands it off and it works its way down all the way in the hands of Agamemnon Of course, we don't have the story of the treaties nasty nasty stuff in their family You know Agamemnon comes by comes to the scepter by lots of hook and crook Nevertheless the scepter is divine and origin and so the Spartans in many ways like to trace you know Whether it's through paracles or through divine scepter of Zeus They like to trace their origins their regime back to the gods And so power ultimately is not money. It's not ships not the amount of men It's the question of the gods that stands behind all of this And of course that's the story of the ilead that Thucydides has extracted from and that careful You should know he has not fully dismissed Homer he has not fully dismissed the question of the gods involvement in human affairs And if I if I may want to on this rant, let me just say one other thing in a second restatement of the words great So he has an initial statement at one one and one two and comes back to it 123 I believe and there he talks about the greatness of the war in terms of its suffering Right and okay lots of stuff. Yeah, they killed a lot of people a lot of people were displaced a lot of people were wiped out A lot of people died from all sorts of things and any throws in these weird things like plagues okay and earthquakes okay and and floods and volcanoes yeah, there's killing people many mentions is one other thing You know what he mentions and eclipse Eclipse is called all sorts of suffering right?
Of course they don't right eclipses by themselves and calling because any suffering is the belief in what the eclipse portends that may cause suffering Right so in thinking about suffering we simply you know Yes, Thucydides has in mind the sent to which men will massacre one another But he also has in mind the belief meant having the gods the suffering that comes from that It's also just crazy. You know all the other natural phenomena the idea that this would prove the greatness of the war is strange Right. I mean great suffering would be caused by the war and by the natural phenomena Right, but I think it's at the end of the first chapter. He says This was the greatest motion both with the things pertaining the war and the rest yes as I wait So the motion must include within it not just the war but other things.
What are these other things? It seems like it's a more comprehensive thing I mean just to tie this back to that motion line one of the ways I tend to think about what he means by this is that This might have been the greatest motion because it concerned the highest things right? Maybe this is what you were meant with the archaeology right? The it's the kind of the principles that somehow what happened between the Athenians and the Spartans shook the Greeks at their most fundamental level which has to mean concerning the gods right and the natural phenomena therefore Which you might attribute to divine will just start to get this kind of ambiguous character right is it nature?
Is it the gods what's going on here and you get a sense that the issues are far bigger than we just killed a lot of us? Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, and you know, I got a small chapter on the question of nature and you know just the natural events that That happened in the cities. You know whether it's volcanoes or earthquakes or floods or tsunamis and eclipses and stuff And you know Thucydides handling of these things is not surprisingly very very delicate and one might even say equivocal in other words It would be one thing to say well, you know Thucydides is critical of the Greek view of the gods And so he holds to this kind of naturalistic account of human affairs.
Well, I won't even know that flaw right? I mean, I don't think a proper reading or faithful reading of Thucydides text allows us to conclude that there is an Nature when we you know the kind of by which we mean something nature with a capital and objectively knowable permanently fixed Right intelligible to the una human mind and so on so I think he calls that into doubt as well Right so he calls both of these things into doubt his history that motion right of the of these two forces coming against one another serves to illuminate the questionfulness of both the particular Greek beliefs and the gods and But approached in nature with a capital in I think Greg wanted to jump in Real quick. I'm not I mean that was sort of that was actually the question I had in mind to what extent do we think that he's I mean, he's he revealing something about the first principles that he's saying that Homer and Herodis obscure. I guess that's just Yeah, that's okay.
So yeah, I'm sorry that cut you off there No, no, that's even if they may have understood or seen it But that somehow their manner of writing covered over these things Maybe that goes with the Spartan covering versus the Athenians driven to yeah So I this is something I really struggle with partly I mean I think I have a handle or a lot I'm maybe not handle is not the right word but a line on this Yeah, but I struggle with it because I think it's it's pretty gutsy of Thucydides to think he can be critical at home And I'm not sure that he doesn't even if that's right if I've got that line right that he is really in the end critical at home or Is he this criticism right is it just is he right to be critical at home or but I would say you know So so there's that first attack leveled against Homer that I just discussed which is clearly not really an attack in fact if nothing Reinforces our sense that the challenge posed by Homeric poetry is much greater than you perhaps initially thought Later when Homer shows up in his work it shows up. I mean he gives a book three chapter 104 which is alluded to not Obviously by book three 104 those right the division of the taxi and the books and chapters as Anyone familiar with this knows this as the invention or intervention of of later scholars right Thucydides certainly didn't write that way and the Greeks didn't write that way but but many Thucydides refers to the The this is in his archaeology where he's trying to justify the greatness of the war and what I like to call it conventional grounds That you know that the press of war is greater than passports because we've made progress over the past He talks about temporary Athenians who went back to the island of Delos and dug up carrions carrying graves on the island to purify the island That reference in the archaeology is taken up again in book three 104 where he also talks about Homer wanting to win the praises of women or his poetry And so there's something That would distinguish or Thucydides would distinguish himself from Homer on the grounds that he as as has been mentioned already is writing a possession for all time Not something to win applause right Thucydides distinguishes himself from say paracles in the funeral oration which is a very beautiful glowing golden account of What can be achieved when fighting on behalf of Athenian imperial interest in this immortal glory make this renown that never goes old and Book three 104 he's talking about Homer. They're interested in praise of others Lasting beyond you Thucydides doesn't seem to be interested in praise. He's writing his work for possession So to come back to this, what is it that distinguishes Thucydides?
Let's call it historiography from or his manner of concealment slash you know disclosure from Homer and Herodotus and On the basis of what I've said so far it seems to be something like this Homer and Herodotus seem to be overstating things in search of a Kind of praise or glory That Thucydides is not pursuing he doesn't want something else The wisdom of his text should be sufficient Is it when he refers to that um Logo graph or whatever how you said yeah, the logo graph or I guess yeah Yeah, I mean I sort of take that to be a fairly clear indication that he's speaking about Herodotus. I mean is that fair? I mean in other words this other class of type But I mean the poet's pretty clearly Homer, but then I wonder if this is chronicler and two of the translations that I had to check I mean I suppose it any logo for a such a mouthful right? Yeah, yeah, I'm not a third gal.
Why not? Oh, that is Herodotus there no Yeah, I mean he was after a little boy, but so no, that's right. No, I think that I think they'll certainly apply there Certainly other parts of the text where Thucydides takes up things in the past that Herodotus deals with Um, certainly the growth of Athenian empire Athenian power in the wake of the the Persian wars And this certainly comes up later he talks about another logographer chronicler in book one during the the 50 year account of the growth of the Athenian power the penteconta edia where he addresses hualenicus and say no, I'm not like hualenicus I don't you know, I don't make I don't depart from my history in the way that he does and of course He's saying this in the context of a massive digression from his chronology right which then takes another massive digression Because the heart of the penteconta edia goes back another 200 years right so it's anyway So there's guys like hualenicus that he hasn't mined but yeah, absolutely haratus, but again, I I don't know. I mean I find that That account of Homer seems a little thin right at the criticism of Homer is that he's after glory I don't know.
I don't know that's right. I mean it's something with haratus I mean haratus clearly exaggerates tells embellished stories, but when you read him, it's pretty clear that you know, he tells certain things out of order and he'll he'll jucks the post stories for the sake of you could say that there's kind of two ways of and then he or yes, so there's kind of two ways of getting up the truth one is to be utterly spare and try to just be very factual And that's kind of the reputation that he says The other is to exaggerate and create sort of idealized types right so that you can sort of examine things much more clearly in their exaggerated form And then find out where the truth lies in between them that he said I mean do sit it he's basically admits right Well, you mentioned deaudidus that's that's invented care to be admits to making speeches Having to compose it so that it fits the situation one of the remarkable things that actually reminds me a lot of About Homer is your Rita speech and it makes all these claims and then you read what happens and you're like well that guy was wrong or It's the same thing in in Homer What makes I think Homer so readable is you read a speech then you read the events and you see human beings make claims about themselves and about the world And you see the world you stack up or not stack up to them right my favorite example of this Which is almost a it's a socratic move in a way, right? But it's bigger than Socrates is it's when Wasn't him Hector decides to see outside the gates and he convinces himself he might be able to feed Achilles And then he sees Achilles and he runs away, right? I mean he's making a claim about himself that he immediately discovers isn't true He does I mean I think he had a shot, but you know he doesn't stick around right he runs runs for the hills And you know when Thucydides does this he reminds me so much of home with that I can't This is not like a deep insight in the home where he must have known that Homer wrote this way and he must be writing in a similar way So he must have seen that though he does disenvalsha he's using the same kind of poetic tactics in a way I know I absolutely completely agree with you Um, the the what the only possible defense here I can make in terms of distinguishing Homer from Thucydides and this isn't to Say defense Thucydides superiority over Homer, right?
I mean if both men are wise Okay, wonderful, right? I mean what they I don't I don't make one better than the other they're both wise they both get us to the truth about human political affairs But it seems to me that Thucydides really places a great deal of emphasis on the question of the Greek articulation of justice and what an understanding of the Greek articulation of justice allows us to see or what that that uh what an investigation of the Greek articulation of justice will illuminate about human affairs including their beliefs and gods and That I think for Thucydides is one of the things that distinguishes his work from from home and out again someone's well All are also concerns itself with concerns himself with justice fair enough I think again just I think Thucydides is insisting that his approach to the question of justice is distinctive from what you get in in Homeric poetry That might be a good um Opportunity to segue into the question about what actually what the cause of the war in which sends justice a part of it Maybe or something like that um because he does say he has this sort of weird phrase I know that tim berns buddy of all ours makes a great deal of exactly what turn of phrase Thucydides uses here But what did cause the war what's the truest cause or the truest alleged cause or the truest free text or whatever we want to translate that bit but And how does that relate to the war generally I suppose Yeah, so the question of causes is something that Thucydides defers until chapter 24 through You know the rest of book one Right, so it's the issue of actual causes is is not addressed in the archaeology I I think there are a lot of considerations that bear on the question of cause and that help frame the reader's judgment About that question. I was to ask it a certain way alive to to the significance of that question what's taken that question But the question of cause is comes up, you know in in these fights, so you have this famous distinction between What some people like to refer to as the pretext right or the accusations And then the I always my pronunciation of Greek ancient Greek has just completely disappeared but the Trueest pervasive the truest cause the least spoken of So he's drawing the distinction between things that were said openly in speech But the truest cause which was said less openly in speech when she declares or starts to be something about the fear that the growth of the deviant power Put into the Spartans now the iti the charges the pretext the claims that were most openly spoken where that the of the an incident had done something unjust They violated the terms of the 30-year treaty signed some 14 or 15 years prior and that that that violation took place when the Athenians cited with the course irons against the Corinthians and the Corinthians were allies of Sparta and You know the the Corinthians thought this is a clear violation of the treaty because the treaty says you're not supposed to go to war against Against Sparta and her allies and it's you know, the Athenians clearly did over the contested state of epiduminous Long story there, but so that so that the most publicly spoken charges involved questions of justice and legality The truest cause seems to be the growth of Athenian power and fear There is a tendons by too many readers of Thucydides to simply dismiss the what gets translated or mistranslated as pretext that's a mistranslation the iti Right Because it's just as well this is just covering it doesn't mean anything what was really motivating us concerned about power and fear You know and so that we get this reading then plays into the Thucydides as proto-homs, right? But that's not true I mean, I think that's that's a flawed reading of the passage when he when Thucydides talks about the truest causes of the war The least openly spoken in speech It means they were they were talking about these things and speech the growth of Athenian power is a is a problem that people were talking about And it is related to the charges of justice and injustice And Alex, do you want to yeah?
I think and I mean he says explicitly right after the the the debate Right when the Corinthians accused the Athenians when he talks about the Spartans. He says they were afraid right They was booty. Yeah, they had this also the word profassus right it comes from finest though Which means so it means what brought it into appearance or what brought it about right? It's almost it's not it's almost like you have the asteted reasons and then you have the actual machinations that machinations that are coming about right so it's not I think pretext is too soft for Itiia, right?
Oh, yeah, it's not I mean I'm wrong here, but iti is in the previous season 123 I'll read it and then I just want to correct something or at least maybe we take a second to make sure we're right here I don't what it's not about the causes the causes the causes within in 126 when he says what I say the real causes here I'm using the strasselor translation. It's not itiia there. That's that's profassus or profassus So he says the true and not real by the way the most true profassus I don't know how you guys want translate that the alleged motive the alleged free text the alleged excuse I considered the one which was formerly most kept out of sight or I think it is speech there actually the growth of the power of Athens And the alarm I would say fears fellows which this inspired in Sparta made made war and my translation says inevitable But Thucydides doesn't say necessary or inevitably says compulsory So there was a compil and I think that you can correct me on this vj But I think one of the things that Thucydides is doing pretty neatly in this book is distinguishing between that which is necessary and that which is compulsory And so I think that one of the mistakes that he means make later on is confusing or conflating compulsion with necessity What's the way there can be a compulsion there anonk That's the way also the right is the u.s. Right.
Yeah, any kind of thing necessitating whether it's compulsion or yeah, right But as opposed to I mean there are other words that I think would apply or apply necessity. Oh, right? Yeah, yeah, and so I mean so there's that ambiguity there I think in Thucydides that I think I think you're rightly stransing it Or I'm missing it like this is the truth cause and it was inevitable. It's like well, it's the profassus I don't know what you guys tell me how you want to translate that but then it didn't actually make it inevitable just made it It was it compelled this word to do it.
No, of course, we have to be unpacked this by the way The growth of Athens made Sparta afraid and therefore it made the war somewhat inevitable But it doesn't ask the question or sort of begs the question Why do Athens get big in the first place was in their own fear of Persia isn't that kind of what the archaeology lays out? So isn't there kind of this strange, you know going back to the account of the growth of the demon empire in their response to the The motives let's say whether it was fear of Persia whether it was advantage Whether it was honor, which is what of course the envoys assert right in their in their speech at the conference in Sparta Um, that that whole account is given in japan's 24 to 146 Right, so the archaeology is silent about it. Well, it does make um a reference to when the the Persian invasion and the Athenians Abandoned in their city and literally became a city of Florida became seen that right that the abandoned land to become people on the sea, right? so So regarding what is compulsory versus what is necessary or how we perceive say how we respond to a compulsion Was it true necessity or was it compulsion?
I mean, you know, if Broul points out and of course, you know, he ruled the point this out But he was the first to know at least in my reading on this scholarship to point out that you know what the Athenians would grant to a kind of Necessary compulsion say love of honor boy that is a really expansive and elastic right right because yeah, that could be considered compulsory love of honor Or love of one's own advantage then what isn't compulsory right? Um, whereas, you know, I think a more a more morally salutary understanding would be say, you know The compulsions of honor and advantage are certainly attractive But they're not necessary in the way other things might be strictly speaking necessary So you're more the responsible not to act on them whenever you think you know, it served your Interest or serves your your honor, but the Athenians don't seem to have that understanding So you're right there. There is something in there about how they perceive necessity And by the way, this is how the Spartans perceive necessity to it the Spartans not only think the war is just They think it's necessary because they were they were afraid of the growth of the power later. They changed their mind about that Well, we might have been a little precipitous here.
Yeah, especially when they get their noses bloody that pylos and and the war isn't going Quite the way they wanted and they're willing to they're willing to give all a lot in fact You know, we're not we're clean on not such a hothead And so greedy I mean Athens could have ended the war after pylos on terms of nearly favorable to their empire, right? Basically Sparta would have said you get to do whatever you want on the sea will leave you alone Just let us be and that sounds like a pretty good deal to f so they you know, they were feeling pretty pretty guilty I think at that stage because you know the gods hadn't come to their aid The gods hadn't come to their aid because well, they weren't fully jossed. They weren't as they thought they were It occurs to me. It was a good place to stop the type It occurs to me that just as we're describing book, right?
So he after brief prologue right in the which is the archaeology He then launches into the account of the true causes which occupying for the rest of book one But really he gives an account of the fear thing that goes up to I think chapter 87 right and then 88 to the end 146 I think you said is this sort of prehistory of what was going on leading up to that so the Basically the growth of Athenian power it's stretching. This is remarkably similar to the beginning of the ilead, right? He says all right, where did this whole thing start? I want to tell you about Zeus's plan Book one gives you the fight between Agapehanon and Mikiles and then Zeus watches his plan at the beginning of book two, right?
I wonder to what extent then that That his the extent to which he's pushing you know, Homer back into right and trying to say I'm not like him is a kind of poetic exaggeration, right? Maybe necessary for him to sort of draw attention to his work as singular and unique But you know, it seems to me that they're both concerned with the same problem, right? Are there providential gods right or the gods at all and is there something like nature, right? Very different modes largely.
I think there's a different tasks and different, you know, political circumstances or even cultural in the case of Homer But it seems like there's there's something remarkably in step between the two. Yeah, except so I like that a lot, right? And I think that's a really really fruitful way to think about Or a fruitful kind of strategy for approaching what's distinctive in home and what's distinctive in Thucydides um And of course in the ways in which they're they're similar but you know, there was there was no polis or polis for Homer in the way that there was for Thucydides These Greek cities are are qualitatively different the cities that Thucydides is dealing with in the Peloponnesian war, qualitatively different Then then the communities that are contributing these these soldiers Uh to the forces at ilium at roy so I I continue to think that for Thucydides something about Greek politics as it's come to sight um in the fifth century And through the Peloponnesian war that's really important and distinctive from what Homer can give us in the heliot in the odyssey I think that that's a that's a that's a point on which I think I'm gonna have I would insist you're right they take up similar questions um But I don't think it's simply a difference in how they approach those questions or or a difference of red let's say at the highest or deepest level red Right. Um There's I think there's something in Thucydides Focus on the Greek polis as it's comes sight in Athens inspired in the fifth century That's that's particularly distinctive and important for him and and revelatory in the way it grows lives and dies That's a great plan.
Well, I mean this has been a really interesting conversation on Thucydides We probably need to start wrapping things up But I just wondered and we kind of did a little bit of your intellectual biography The beginning was something we like to do with our guests and you mentioned we mentioned that you were from your student of loenthal Is there anything else you want to talk about how you got interested in this step was it by accident? You encountered loenthal where there are other influential people along the way who sort of really you know Lured you in correct one course or one course that stuck out to you is that deal because I feel like there one party where there was still too much Too many martin. I'm just saying anything that's straight. Well, you know, uh there is in fact And perhaps you know, everyone has everyone has one of these moments But I can still remember with great clarity my first day in my class on the Plato's Republic with chris rule And I left there with my head on fire.
I I had never encountered anything like that. I was a junior. I was very late in studying politics. Um, this is an undergraduate I'm sorry.
This was an undergraduate. Yes. Well, I was a junior. I've lost in college and I've been kind of floating around I've been taking ancient greek That's another story how you know one get gets an ancient greek prior like before studying political philosophy But I've been you know, that's kind of how I met some of the grad students in the grad program And you know what you're studying?
Uh preparing for exams with these grad students who start talking about other things and and in time They would say you know these questions that interest you should really take these classes So, you know, I I kind of poke around for a bit And then I landed in rules republic class and it just it blew my mind. It was day one. I walked out there I was like I have got to do this So that's bad. I mean, he's such a big name in our circles and I mean I've always heard he's an excellent graduate class But honestly, this is one of the first times very thinking about his teaching as an undergraduate And so what do you remember what it was?
It was like it began again. I guess capillos and all that Well, no, he would just start he just opened up the text You know in just a very honest unaffected way just began by pointing you know, just asking certain questions about the opening of the republic I've never seen a text treated this way before. Yeah, okay. I mean I I had I think one political science class one political theory class Prior to that and it was on airstyles ethics with a very very very young David Foster who was up.
No, that's about that That's how old I am right that's that's a David Foster. Yeah, David's great David was my first introduction to To the political theory and it was it was hard right for me. It was very very hard But David was great. It was great But it wasn't I mean, you know sitting in that class with Chris.
He was just actually Chris like we're on first-name basis Right with professor rule. It was just I never seen a text treated that way before and it's Oak to my concerns as a human I just thought literally I went I said what I thought it would be a hell of a buzzing I just felt like this finally someone is asking questions that concern me They just taken a text and show me how it could speak to my concerns and just a few lines Just you know as we all know now that just played. I was just loaded right and and it was just so honest And I was at every day one. I was taking the back of the class the next day front and center I that's it, you know, and I I took every political philosophy class that BC offered over the next two years You know and and that was it that was what that's what got me into this I said, you know, I don't care what I do for the rest of my life This has to be part of it this has to be a part of it.
Well the last part of the show we like to ask our guests Dog and pony show I call lightning round you for it. I'm sure so I'll ask you just a series of questions Answer them or pass as you see fit. You know and try to answer this in a sliding round some of our sort of elders days and use these opportunities to spend the arms but you know do it you see fit All right question one. Who's your favorite philosopher?
Playa, say this to me. Favorite work of philosophy Oh, that's like the fourth or fifth time we've heard that I think cool. Um, what was your favorite pastime in graduate school? That comes from pastime right by definite pass Who is who is your favorite college football team fighting Irish Notre Dame?
I got a feeling that was it Fair enough. Who's your favorite non-philosopher to read? Whoa Non-philosopher to read literature or something like this. Yeah, I mean this story.
I mean so I'm writing this book on twain Right. I'm I'm I don't know if I call him a philosopher, but he'd be at the he'd be up there. Is it join a bar? Because I was writing on set.
Yeah personal recollections of Joan of bark Yeah, it's his last complete book and the book he called his best set he spent his most time on it Nobody reads it. We'll have to have you back on when the book's completed. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you So is that your fate before?
B.J said that he'd be willing to do a double header maybe not in the same episode, but a Connecticut Yankee And then Joan of ark that sounds right you really spoke on the phone you discussed a connection with yeah, they're they're linked they're linked He links together their pair novels. How do we do? Do I have to read your vark or It's it is a Forbidding text. Huh.
Yeah, that's why I feel silly asking a guy called B.J. This but if you were heading nicknames Pass It's kind of like it's kind of like boy names too, right? Yeah You develop a thick skin you want to do things have either develop a thick skin or you get a lot of fights Um, so I think I got a little of both on that one, but but uh, dawgardob Steve my students at one point Um called me de-block. Oh deep lock.
That's not bad. Yeah, because I was like I was so tough in class I was like a prison board. Oh nice. Um, so so block D with professor dabs.
So it's pretty cool Yeah, I wear that one of the high and clean pride. Yeah. Yeah, that one's good. She got that tatted on your knuckles deep block Okay, I got to do math figure my letters is but um all right.
What was your first car? What was it a like a Really low rent Mustang. It was a POS like it read about the thing like the 1980s Mustangs or like 1970s Okay, like real. I mean the gas gauge didn't work.
So I said to do math to figure out How much gas I needed to get around there was all sorts of problems That was had to keep it a small Do it yourself toolkit in the car because it would not always make it from point eight a point B and one go Uh, so yeah, that was that was a real piece of job But I got it on my 17th birthday. My father got it for me as a gift And then came with a warning because my my siblings who are certainly not gonna listen to this podcast And just absolutely terrible drivers Uh, I'm the youngest of four and two of my older brothers have crashed between them seven cars I mean whole right so when my father gave me the car on my 17th birthday He also gave me a warning which was uh, if you crash this car, you're moving out of the house So, uh, happy birthday son. Yeah. Wow.
Um, that's pretty cool. Um, what's your first job? Uh, my first job I worked in a place called elf asphalt Literally an asphalt factory naturally. Yeah, of course elf because else like because of the I have no idea where the name came from.
I was I was 17 and it was um, I mean I left one once the count, you know, paper route as a kid But know my first real paying job was at an asphalt factory and the human types you meet At an asphalt factory don't quite make their ways into a platonic dialogue. I'm here to say fair enough So elf you down must have been where you first grew that puckish goatee All right last one last year. I'll show that in a tweet for that. Oh, listen back then.
I had very very long hair Oh, very long hair one length waist length. Uh, it was it was something so psyched to be old It was glorious to be quite honest But driving them on staying hair down your way. What's your convertible? Is it?
No, it's not convertible. No, okay. I'm sorry. David.
What was that? What's your favorite band? Oh, yeah? So I'm I'm really a big music lover.
Um, and I like all types of it's right. Right. I'm asking which child is my favorite What do we need the top three in rotation now or your perennial? Okay.
So like right now I'm listening a lot to this band called the dip Which is uh, like a piece Um, jazz soul group out of a rhythm and soul r&b out of a Seattle they're fantastic. Just really tremendous I can't pay if you guys like horns Um r&b soul that they're out there, you know, they're out now playing small clubs I caught him in the Boston the spring just terrific actually met the band afterwards very very cool. Um, so the dip I would say uh, john moorland um Uh bluegrass kind of americano. Uh, and oh, I don't know.
Uh, uh, Gosh, john coltrane. Well, I was scared you're gonna say john prine because anybody anytime that's made mentioned, you know, great Just goes off on this. I like john prine john prine john prine fantastic Hey, don't talk talk talk talk talk talk talk Uh, yeah, that's that's I'm a real musical over. So yeah, that's cool.
Cool. Well, that's all I got for lightning round Bj, this is great. I think we learned a lot about Thucydides and I do have you come back and talk about mark 20 Yeah, it'd be great. Now.
I look forward to see you in boston in november. We'll be at the npsa Yeah, absolutely. I'll be discussing some great papers by you and dusted cbelle and uh tim burns. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. Great. She'll be a lot of fun Yeah, all right. Well, don't forget folks at home.
Go ahead. Sorry. I'm stepping around Don't forget folks at home. Don't forget folks at home.
We're gonna ask you a favor. Don't forget to rate us. It means a lot What what do you say? What's it like?
You were saying it up for one of your greg bits? No, no, no bit We really it does help us you always tell them so many helps us if people actually go online rate us actually no good point And I should have brought this I cannot believe I forgot to bring this up for our opening monologue Oh, yeah, I'll tell you about the guy that that's not we got an awful rating we did we did we did All right. Well, it's anonymous some some turd cowler Said we're not serious people. Hey, we think we think we're great and hey if you like to be Jay let us know and you'll come again, right?
Yeah, guys. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm a big fan. Um, really this is great stuff I mean, I love you guys work individually as scholars.
It's really good stuff, but this is this is really fun I enjoyed doing but I also just love listening to it. Thank you. So keep it up really. That's our plan really meaningful Thank you.
Yeah, thanks. Be good. See you next week guys. Take care.
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