Interview with Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Sortition USA

In this episode of the Undetermined States of America podcast, I’m joined by Leonora Camner, Executive Director of Sortition USA (formerly Democracy Without Elections). Leonora was one of the very first people who pulled me into the world of sortition, citizens’ assemblies, and deliberative democracy and I'm very grateful to her for all the connections I've made through introductions she initiated.In this episode, we start with Leonora’s path from housing organizing in Los Angeles to a deep disillusionment with how “community input” and electoral incentives can turn public life into a toxic tug-of-war—where shouting, fundraising, and political cover often matter more than facts, expertise, or the common good. From there, Leonora explains the “ray of light” moment: discovering lottery-based democracy as a real, serious alternative, and why randomness can actually reduce manipulation and restore legitimacy.We also get into strategy of making sortition a movement: local chapters, model assemblies, and what it could look like to build an alternative civic culture people can genuinely identify with; something that doesn’t just critique the current system, but practices a better one. If you’ve felt like our politics is broken at the level of incentives and the core way in which our system is structured, I think this interview will resonate.This interview was recorded back in the late summer 2025 and Leonora has already been patient enough to forgive me for the long delay (a delay so long that the organization has since changed it's name since I interviewed her!). I am also honored to share that I am now serving on the board of Sorition USA! I enjoyed interviewing Leonora very much and I am looking forward to our future conversations and work together. Get full access to [Undetermined] States of America at www.undetermined.us/subscribe