INTRODUCING: Crime Junkie AF

Hi crime junkies. Happy Friday. Are you surprised to hear from me today? Well, if you haven't heard yet We recently had a very special announcement over on Sirius XM's app. We launched their very first ever true crime channel crime junkie radio It's your ultimate destination for 24 seven true crime, but that's not all we are also launching a brand new show called crime junkie AF Where each month I'll be bringing on a special guest to explore the latest headline cases with me that I cannot stop thinking about We've actually released our very first episode today But I wanted to make sure that you guys didn't miss it and I wanted to make sure you knew what to expect every month here after So I'm dropping this first episode in our feed It is an episode with special guest who you guys know deal yet D yumba and her and I get to talk about something that is going on A true crime right now that is one of the most wild cases I have come across in years I'm telling you it is a doozy of a story And if you like the show if you like the format, please head over to the series XM app and follow crime junkie AF So you don't miss this brand new show brand new episodes are gonna be dropping at the end of every single month

And of course, I'm not gonna leave my crime junkies hanging There's actually a promo code link in the show notes of this episode that will give you 90 days free access to serious XM So make sure you use that code and I'll see you over there in the app. But first enjoy this episode Hi everyone I'm Ashley Flowers and welcome to my new show on serious XM made by a crime junkie Ashley Flowers for people who are crime junkie AF My plan is to come here every month and share with you the cases you have to know about you have to be able to talk about Beyond the clickbait headlines, but like really get into and I don't want to do that alone It's more than just storytelling. I want to have conversations with other people people Who are experts in their field journalists with different forensic experts people who are actually connected to these cases?

So I know I'm probably should do like a bigger entrance since it's the first show But I'm just dying to get into the case that we're talking about today So my first guess if you are a crime junkie, you know her you love her Miss Delia Diem. Hi, I'm so excited to be here This is so awesome. I don't like it to do crime. Thank you stuff is so fun. I am jazzed for people who don't know you We have been working together for five six years. Oh my gosh

Delia is one of the most tenacious investigative journalists I've ever met in my life She hosts the limited series counterclock, which is an investigative series. You are currently working on season. Well season seven But it's season six is about to come out. Yeah, you know me. I'm like making a movie I'm like years ahead. Yeah, you also host park predators

You had a new show come out with us dark arenas So you are very well known in the podcast field very well known in the journalism field And you and I because we know each other a long time I texted you as soon as I asked you come on I was like we get to play my favorite game with you which is a conspiracy or incompetence because every time you and I get In a case together, I'm like it goes all the way to the top and you're always like well I probably just don't know what they're doing I mean, I always want to be on the side of like hey You can't just like say the most like wild thing But at the same time like some of these cases and this case that you said we were gonna talk about today It is that it is the sense of like does it go this far like this so deep and so that's definitely something that I'm like I've had way too many rather than And before you do you come here? Did you know this case?

I did not know it like intimately but the headline like the headline like I had remembered So this case happened in January late January 2022 Which for those of you that don't know you and I were having children like literally birthing children at the time So postpartum like I remember in those weeks after you know when my son is sleeping like hours a day, right? There's nothing to do I remember just kind of like peeking into the real world I mean like what's happening and this headline was when that stood out probably on Twitter or probably on X or something like that And I just remember being like what that seems really like wonky So I didn't have like anything but like truly this year headline which is really interesting and the headline is breaking news Karen Reed Karen Reed is her name charged with murder from January 2022 death for boyfriend Boston police officer John O'Keefe So Karen Reed this woman in Boston is accused of killing her boyfriend John O'Keefe who was a Boston police officer And it's interesting when you're talking about the headlines because actually one of the first things that I read when I was really diving into this Was a piece that was written by one of John O'Keefe's friends

And it was all about the family's perception of this because this case has really grown beyond just one of the facts Or that the fact that she's going to trial it is taken on a life of its own the conspiracy theories are Wild in this case and the thing she said is she said this has become about Karen and it is about Karen She's the one who's a trial, but she said John has gotten lost in all of this her friend has gotten lost And people are forgetting the real family that is behind this tragedy And they do believe that Karen's responsible They think the right person is going to trial and whether I agree with that or not one of the things I took away from the article Is this woman said everyone reads the headline? Maybe they read a little bit beyond that but very few people actually have read the court documents and can speak to it that way And are forming their own opinions and so that's what I wanted to do coming into this is thanks to the Boston Globe They actually have been the ones who have been going out requesting so many of these records these court proceedings these filings these motions And they've made all of that available online So everything we're gonna talk about today doesn't come from a flashy headline it comes directly from these very long very legal court documents But I want to try to put it all in a way that people understand

Yeah, because the people that know this case the absolute best at this point are the ones that have crafted these documents And so really like that is key to a case like this where there's so much going on because like you said There's so much that sort of polluted the you know space around the story in this headline So these documents are really the people who've been putting their heart and soul into this case for so long So I think that's where you get that level of credibility that is good And it's interesting because you get the narrative piece by piece every every filing every document you get one more thing that you can File away like oh this fills in that gap or oh this contradicts that So I want to give you kind of an overview of the case itself or at least what the prosecution originally put forward in their like statement of the case So this all started in the very end of January 2022 This is in Canton, Massachusetts which is right outside of Boston and at the center of our story is John O'Keefe the victim and his girlfriend Karen Reed That night they go out to a bar they're drinking they're together they go to another bar called the waterfall And that's where they meet up with some of John's acquaintances It seems like he knows one woman there this woman named Jennifer McCabe And he knows Jennifer's husband Matthew and maybe one or two other people there Karen has only met these people like a handful of times

Everyone's drinking everyone who's there that night even the court documents say this in the like initial statement filing that is happy No one's fighting everyone's having a good time the bars start to close down This is around midnight or everyone decides to go but they're not ready to call it a night One of the people there this man named Brian Albert who is also with the police officer himself He heads up like a pretty big unit and he's like, you know what everyone come back to my house It was his son's birthday or was about to be his birthday his son had some friends over he's like we can keep it going there So they head out they go back to Brian's house and there's some text exchanged between Jennifer and John where he's like, hey Where are we going? He calls to get directions They all head back and Karen and John are seen like walking to her car She gets in the driver's seat and presumably they make it because people who are at the house Jennifer talks about this her husband Matthew talks about this they see a dark SUV Which is what Karen was driving right outside of the front door and she's even Jennifer is even texting John like are you like?

Coming in she even says hey pull up right behind me meaning like pull up in the driveway at some point the vehicle moves like one to one and a half cars Length up so I mean we're still right in front of the house and I don't know do you get a chance to look at Google Maps? I did I know I did of course you did I live on Google Maps I and this is where I in the court documents There's all this talk about again They break this down 15 different ways 15 different times About when this car moves up and it goes and it says you know goes to the you know left of the property or whatever by the flagpole and the fire hydrant And for some reason when I'm reading this in black and white I'm imagining that she's going like around the side of the house Like I'm not being seen by people and if you Google the address it's I mean everything can be seen from the house It's all visible. Yes, and it's not it's not a huge property We're talking a regular neighborhood in a regular subdivision so the car moves up a little bit But then John never comes in the house Karen doesn't go in the house either And the next thing anyone knows is they're getting calls from Karen saying that John didn't come home I'm worried that something happened. I'm worried that he's dead

I mean what exactly she said and how distraught she was is a little bit up for debate again depending on who's telling the story And she meets up she goes to meet up with Jennifer McCabe They meet up with another friend Kerry and the three of them go back to Brian Albert house to see if they can find it That's the last place like in her mind, right where I that's where I left him. Yeah now on top of this It is a blizzard. Yeah, why not? Which is the timing of it if you put it in a novel someone would be like I don't know it feels like a little yeah, it feels like it's just like a scene setting thing Like it had started snowing the night before but we are talking full on blizzard almost white out conditions in the morning So when they're driving up Kerry and Jennifer say they don't see anything But almost right away Karen says that she sees him she pulls open the van or the vehicle the door Whatever like hops out and goes to him and he is he's laying there in the snow They say there's like six inches of snow on top of them his phone is underneath him I don't know if they move him or what but immediately two of them start performing CPR and one of them calls 911 So 911 comes and there's a lot said people are saying that Karen is completely distraught

One firefighter even says that she is saying I hit him. I hit him. Yeah, she's making these declarations that are like whoa What's going on and he's pronounced dead at the hospital later His injuries were mostly to his head and to his forearm So according to the autopsy he had several abrasions to his right forearm two swollen black eyes a small cut above the right eye a cut to the left side of his nose a two-inch laceration on the back right side of his head multiple skull fractures that resulted in bleeding of the brain and The autopsy will later know that he has his pancreas is a very dark red which indicates hypothermia Which they say contributed to his death. So he was injured they say he's made incapacitated And that's why he's laying in the snow, but then he he really died from hypothermia and then he has That snow on top of him right the snowfall that's fallen that covered him so that that's another indication that he has been out there for A period of time just snow on top of yeah, like and I know snow can fall fast in the bus and area But I think all that right like you said that plus his autopsy results show that you know He was there and you very well could have been still trying to live and that's super heartbreaking for sure now

Nobody comes out of the house from what's been said reported whatever again everyone wants to make a lot of that It's also a blizzard other neighbors aren't even coming out of the house. So you can see what's going on with all the police there It's freezing. Karen is taken to the hospital as well They end up pulling a blood sample from her and they're able to determine It's nine in the morning by the time they pull that blood sample, but backtracking it They think that her blood alcohol was somewhere between 0.13 and 0.29 at the time She would have been dropping him off which was I think about like between 1240 is 1245 like back in the morning So what ends up happening pretty quickly like within a couple of days of his body being found is they end up charging Karen with manslaughter Basically saying that she backed over him because she was drunk and he died of hypothermia and it's her fault Now do you want to talk about why they think that she backed over him?

I mean there's been like there's been so many reasons, right? But I mean the issues with their relationship and the voicemails and stuff like that The charge will get changed later, but when the car there's a state trooper so originally can PD comes can PD gets conflicted out of the case because there's all these police officers There so they bring in the state police that state police officer goes to get Karen's statement after she's released in the hospital She's staying at her parents house and he says he notices that her tail light her passenger side rear tail light is broken So that becomes part of their theory is that she backed into him the tail light broke as a result of that and again She was drunk as a tragic accident So she's charged and at the time that she is charged It all happens again really fashing me to her lawyer like while she's there at the court and then the lawyer comes out and Says something the press really this is a tragic accident like we're gonna you know She figures out she's devastated whatever and that's kind of all it was and then I don't know that it would have made national headlines right if it ended there, but it doesn't end there because Shortly after her lawyer the scripture had called his office and so after he goes and he gives a statement

He calls his tipster back and I'm gonna read it directly It says or what they say that's tipster said is quote your client is innocent John was beaten up by brian albert and his nephew They broke his nose and when okeet didn't come to brian and a federal agent dumped his body on the front lawn End quote now. It's worth noting where that was reported It said that an attorney for the man that this like a man that was identified says that this did not happen But there's lawyers. Yeah, so the journalists did track down the actual tips during the pictures lawyers like nope Didn't say that so it is it right so and again right now all it is is just this what kind of wild hairbrained Yeah, but it kind of starts working its way into the back of everyone's mind And what karen talks about on she didn't interview with nightline is that she is up when she starts just going on facebook because She can't even figure out to me because she's like why is this even happening?

Yeah, why and she starts finding pictures of the police who are investigating the case connected to the people who were at the house that night Doesn't again. What's the motive? What's the why? I don't know but something feels fishy And is this some kind of cover up? And so this is when things really start to explode a little bit and Shortly after all of this too. So what was a manslaughter charge? They end up changing

They end up coming and recharging her with second degree murder and leaving the scene of an accident Which is you know, it's kind of like okay, duh, but yeah, it is an extra charge now I didn't really understand why go out you already had her on manslaughter You're saying she was drunk you're saying this way, but like so then why why do that? Why go to that extra step like I don't get it Well, and I think something that sort of would make that make sense is if they continue to investigate and they discover Issues in the relationship they did preceding the event and I think in this case as they continued to work the investigation Whatever law enforcement officials were working the investigation whether they were connected to some of the witnesses or not They began to discover hey was this truly an accident and they started to ask the question of what preceded these events And I think that's what led them to go. Hey, I think that maybe we can Sell that more to a jury right like a second degree. They're having potential issues There's this moment of issue and and passionate and passionate heat of the moment kind of thing

That's a lot easier to sell to 12 strangers, right? Like when you're gonna like take someone to court and like try and get you know a solid conviction But if you just go with manslaughter like oh, this is tragic accident Like I'm thinking of where they were looking ahead to the future of court proceeding I get that but this is like the such the problem I have with the legal system It's like it's not I want to say it's not about winning It's about what happened and if what if what happened was an accident was drunk driving charge her with that And listen to be fair. They do find stuff right there. There is a reason that they think that there was a motive So they say the prosecution says that they in looking at john o'keef the victims phone They find a series of text messages leading up to his death Quote leading up to the night at waterfall the defendant and okeef exchanged several text messages about their strained relationship In the voicemail that the defendant left okeef on january 29th 2022 and that is like the morning the early morning hours when he's found She stated you are using me right now. You are another girl. You are a losing loser

yourself She called him a pervert and she yelled at him john. I hate you That right there the discovery of that and when they discovered that to me would feed into potentially why they changed that charge Like I think it was a factor. I don't think it was necessarily the entire factor But that right there says something and I think that that they're they're building out this story that there were clearly problems in their relationship And they get this from really john's niece So and again to make sure john doesn't get lost in all of this john had actually taken in his niece and nephew his sister had died And then his sister's husband died shortly after that and yeah he the single man He was the one to take them in and so they obviously live with him karen didn't live with them But she stayed the night their house all the time and there was a story that was told or a couple Especially by the niece and the nephew they say you know they were fighting a lot in the time leading up to it The niece had said, you know, there's this incident where basically john was like I I think it's this isn't working out Like this is getting unhealthy, but karen was really against ending the relationship She didn't want to leave his house There also is this story about them vacationing in aruba on for like new years eve

Which would have been again, we're talking less than a month prior And an incident where he had gone out karen said he had gone out drinking he doesn't come home till three in the morning She's you know ring in the new year with his niece and nephew and she comes out of the elevator and he's Hugging someone she thinks maybe kissing someone Everyone says there was no kiss, but it's it was enough that it was an incident everyone talks about Yeah, I think it just like whatever that story is again The more law enforcement learns of things like that the more they're going let's widen out the scope of this very Specific incident that we think we're looking at let's widen out and I think all those things really contribute to that And that's what makes it too like just very personal I think that's why people get interested in this kind of story right because a lot of people like everyone has relationships everyone has Drama in their life, but that's what kind of perpetuates I think too some of that interest is like what about this and what about that and that's as well But what I what I have a hard time piecing together is how do you everyone says they were getting along that night or at least not fighting that night Everyone says everything was good that night and here You know what is Karen's memory?

I don't know because I will say again first we get this story and it might have been her lawyer saying this was an accident She doesn't remember but we have people who were initially with her the two women in the car Saying something to the effect of her giving them a statement I don't even remember going to brian's like last thing I remember was being at the waterfall like I don't remember last night Then she has a story a memory so oh and in the first story by the way She had didn't plan to go to brian's or I guess the second story when she remembered that they were gonna go there I don't know it was like I was just gonna drop him off and leave it because I was having stomach Yeah, it's right. I'm gonna drop him off. I'm gonna leave I'm having stomach issues and then the second time around It's her story is and this is what she told nightline was I didn't know if we were invited I didn't actually again. We don't know brian albert personally. I didn't hear him invite me or invite john So we're going there, but I didn't want to just like walk into the house like of someone I don't know so yeah I got it so she said I told john like go in and make sure it's cool for us to be here So she said she's waiting in the car and waiting in the car and he's not coming and not coming And so then she finally gets pissed and is like oh he just ditched me and forgot that I'm sitting here waiting for him

And so she leaves do I love the story changed absolutely not do I understand they're already having problems Can you picture her leaving that voicemail when she thinks he ditched her while she's waiting outside for him Yeah, those connections can totally be made and I want to go back and look at the situation where it is john texting jennifer mccay To coordinate the meeting up at brian albert's house like after the bar I think some people on that face would go wait a minute like if karen and john had these sort of issues about these things She's claiming in this voicemail like john texting, you know another woman even in friendly like hey We're all having a party connect my house like you could see where that might escalate right in a in a drunken state Where it's like you went into this house you didn't come back you were texting this other person like this other woman I think that like right so your point like that could all feed into i'm going to make these nasty voicemails and then peace out and you're all you're drunk. We know you're gonna get nothing is better without calling Yeah, no late at night So she claims that she left that she was trying to text and call him she's a falling asleep on the couch

And then it's for 30 in the morning when she again wakes up realize he's not there She goes to get his niece to call jennifer mccaybe and then you know everything else is pretty much the same When the holiday shopping season rolls around business owners are reminded of how rewarding and demanding it can be to run an online For anyone developing a business idea or looking to start selling products now is the ideal time to launch before the holiday rush It's full speed that is where shopify comes in shopify helps you launch a sore and start selling in a few simple steps without needing to be an e-commerce expert Whether you're organizing product options or setting up your storefront sidekick Shopify's AI assistant can help with business tasks along the way Plus launching before black friday means you can take advantage of all the extra online traffic when millions of eager shoppers are already browsing and ready to buy We love using Shopify for our merch launches to handle everything from inventory to payment to customer service If you're ready to launch your business before black friday go to shopify.com to start your free trial That's shopify.com go to shopify.com today to hear your first The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe you're never truly alone

I'm yvette jindile and i'm her sister russia pakorero every friday on so super natural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation ready to discover what's out there Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast All right, so I Live on time of an hour. I could keep going and going in like the details of even those text messages and those times of the text messages because I think that Becomes important later, so maybe we'll hit it But I want to go back to the physical evidence yet because we're still laying the scene to even get to the conspiracy stuff later So at the scene when we talk about physical evidence again, what do they have to even charge Karen?

So where john was found they said that they found pieces of glass Which their story or the theory is he has actually seen on video surveillance when they leave the waterfall Whatever time that was he actually takes a short clear glass out with him He's seen on video. So they're thinking that's the glass that he was holding I think some of that glass is also found in her bumper They say they also say that they find some pieces of red plastic and white plastic whatever they think like oh, this could be taillight pieces Similar pieces they're at a scene and some I laugh at it They found some patches of blood spots of blood. Here's where things get wild So the glass and the blood is collected first but deal yeah, I sent you a picture of how they collected the blood I actually didn't even know what I was looking at first when you sent it to me But yes, the picture is a like brown grocery store bag And there's six red solo cups in the bottom that all have what appear to be little clumps of snow in them And then you told me what is in the clumps of snow?

That's the blood or in the solo cup. So what they yeah these officers on the scene where and grand it again It's a blizzard. So you're you're in a race against time. That's the only who's solo cups are these They're not that cups. I think they're neighbors and I hope they're not used but what yeah, so they're world does that makes Doesn't to me but they collect the blood evidence in solo cups And that's that's all they initially collect right and again. So his phones underneath him

They obviously collect that as well This is where things start to get a little fishy in my mind because they go back again Multiple times even that same day or whatever but there is a point where they take a snow blower and they're blowing the top layer of snow off looking for more things and The first time they found him by the way, he's missing one of his shoes So this the second time that they go back they find his other shoe and that's when they start finding tail-like pieces Why those red tail-like pieces didn't stick out before is a big question to me because You said that the Massachusetts State Police investigator like early on noted that the tail light was broken So you would think that going back in additional searches that would be like something you're actually Looking for if you have this theory of is this a hit and run Yeah, but you would also think that the first time that when you removed John's body And you found you found pieces of clear glass. Yeah on the ground in the snow. You didn't find pieces of red plastic Yeah, I don't I that's a hard thing to wrap your mind around but I also just know and you know as well that Whenever additional evidence is found on subsequent searches that is so par for the course like in terms of just happens all the time

All it does and I mean they went and again there was so much snow that day They went back multiple times and it's almost known those things where it's like they keep finding more and more and more It said that some of John's DNA was on a piece of Tail they don't get specific that we don't have again because that's gone to trial Yeah, so I don't have a lot of the details how much daylight what piece of the tail light I haven't seen anything that said that any of the tail light was found on him on his clothing anything like that Would you point it out? Yeah, that would be to me if you have these little shards and pieces that are recognizable nothing snow You would think that would be in his or on his clothing The fact that he is on the ground and had been there a while that's not probably wouldn't have moved So that's what I was really curious about so they obviously took her car They processed her car this happens on February 1st after they take like an initial the massachusetts state police crime people whatever They do the initial pass at her car They don't spot this but then they bring in someone they bring in a forensic scientist named marine hardnet And she probably works like four of them again, but she comes in and she's the one who ends up finding this hair It's it's referred to as hair so singular hair as far as I can tell on

Karen's car and this is is like what they keep pointing to the bumper Yeah, they're like oh like again. We don't maybe don't have the tail light on him We don't like but they find this apparent hair on the rear passenger side quarter panel So all they have so they had glass in her bumper, which was like again That's not john on her bumper, right? But then they get this apparent hair and they're like this is this is the proof that like he his head made contact with her car Now this hair is talked about non-stop and it's this case is getting litigated before it goes to trial I mean in the media non-stop these motions are becoming public they're fighting about these in hearings And this hair is something that they keep pointing to over and over again And at some point the defense is even like well We want to do our own testing but then the state won't release it to them and it becomes this big point of contention Well fast forward their massachusetts state police their lab It takes them a year to even examine it and I don't know if it just didn't become important then or I mean over this year And when things really the conspiracy theories really started to take up

I don't know but over a year whatever this next year they look at the hair The massachusetts state lab says that there is no human dna detected when they finally examine it Which what which is the app if this is your if this is one of your piece of key evidence like that's not even a human hair Yeah So the prosecution what they do that's obviously not the results they want so they want a contract with an outside private lab bodie The defense is like okay before you do that we want to like examine it You might use up everything in testing that ends up getting denied And but if this was their only piece of putting john on the car, what do you have nothing? So if we're still talking about john his injuries again, how's the hair on the bumper?

The other thing I want to talk about I it's really hard for me to understand how his injuries come from being run over again if you want to say it's an accident then she's going a few miles an hour backing up whatever if you want to say it was Intentional second-degree murder. Maybe she was going a little faster, but nobody saw that more than anything He's a tall guy. How is her tail light meeting his head? He the only injuries he has really below his neck are his forearm is all cut up The people who think care and read is innocent being framed say it looks like a dog scratched or bit his arm Whatever kind of comedian leaves out on care inside He's got these bruises on the back sides of both of his hands that they say look like defensive wounds Yeah, explain it to me. I know I can't and and I get the whole like a sequence of events Right, but from what I know from talking to a lot of forensic pathologists When people have those impact and like heavy pressure right like getting run over by a car tire or you know getting sideswiped It doesn't necessarily look how we like think it should look which is that like that blunt force trauma injury But I mean, yeah, those scratches on the right forearm specifically are really significant to me

And I think even in some of the images they really stand out but like the dog bite marks That is introduced by the defense and that really leads down and supports the path and the theory of Was it someone at that home's dog that did that and that brings a lot of questions in so yeah, the injuries are hard to wrap your head around But there are some things that like a logical person could say maybe In my mind's like for his injuries you had brought up something to be the other day You're like what if he got like stuck in like or he was like getting out of the car and then fell Yeah, so my thought is if he's getting out of the passenger side and stepping out that passenger side door is gonna be open The the left side of his body is gonna be more in the car, right?

And if he is standing in that space or getting out in the car begins to go in reverse He's gonna fall down more likely on his right side and he's gonna get run over and potentially dragged under that tire You're talking about snow car tires don't just like peel out in the snow They they behave differently And so I'm wondering if he got dragged for a little bit and then that pressure of being it sounds terrible compress like but that doesn't That's not a lot of he's not found in the street. He's found in the in the yard Yeah, so that's another thing It's like okay, we're again the sequence of events where is the car oriented to him if in fact this is how this happened Yeah, there's a lot of questions and it makes me like want to like the one thing that would convince me without a doubt would be Video of some sort of things but in this case Right you brought that up and I was like wait, there's a video and you're like well there is and there is So we can we'll start to get into a little bit of this conspiracy because the video that we have the video that has been introduced Is video from john o' kee's house. He's got a ring camera and he had two cameras One was at his front door one was over his driveway and we've got video from over his driveway of karen reed

So she wakes up at 430. She's calling around at around 507 508. She backs out of the driveway And this is her she's on her way to go to jennifer mccade They're gonna go look for john She backs out and here's where things get really interesting is because john's car is in the driveway She was in the garage. She backs out and wouldn't you know it that passenger side rear tail light comes Offly stinking close if not potentially hits john's car We will have this video in the source material like people have analyzed this yeah to death But she backs up and people will say that you can see her and I can kind of see it You can kind of see her car just shake just ever so slightly back and forth when it potentially makes contact So when she like pulls forward and drives away, that's when you can see on the camera her tail light is broken Now the prosecution specifically lays out in their statements like they even address it They're like she almost comes close to but does not and then you see her tail light's broken because she broke it when she ran over john The defense says no, that's when her tail light was broken now. It would be really easy to solve this

Let's just see when she came home that night If it's broken That video doesn't exist and we don't know why it doesn't exist So the prosecution the cops have kind of alluded to oh well You know she had access to his ring system on her phone and on the app. Maybe she deleted it I could say the same thing But you know anyone who had access to john's phone I know it was in police custody could have deleted it because they basically said they have all these incidents between they have About 15 incidents between 6 p.m. That night and then 6 a.m But they do not have her coming home That's super frustrating because i'm like it completely destroys the timeline of the prosecution If her tail light is not broken when she gets home if there could be proof of that it destroys the timeline, right?

Is broken doesn't just destroy the timeline just right there whole fear Yeah, it destroys the whole theory But then i'm also thinking we go back to this it was a blizzard I know out and I know because I have the same system at my home that like if there's like a spider web or like a lot of condensation or Frost or whatever that that technology doesn't always capture every single motion event that's happening It's super unfortunate that it doesn't capture this one thing but to your point I want to know like in that app like who can delete stuff is there like a metadata trail for that because that right there It should be able to tell you like which user of the app just not register it or there's got there's got to be something there Like how are we not we're 2022 and it's happening. Yeah, but come on We've got to go look at that and well apparently they're using new technology as a pop up Because if you want to pop to another big thing that people who even conspiracy theory points to is it goes back to tech so There is supposedly a search on Jennifer McCabe's phone at 227 in the morning 227 is ours before Karen is opposed to have called her and said john didn't come home. Let's go look for him

At 227 there is a search on her phone that says quote hoss long to die in cold They believe that it was supposed to be how long to die in cold Why is jennifer mccabe searching at at 227? Well, why is her phone searching that Why is her phone searching that right this alarming because we know now with the evidence in john's autopsy That there is this factor that he died out in the snow in the cold I don't love it. I think Again for people that support karen reed side of things it would be indicative of there are people at that home Who are in his company that are trying to figure out what to do with him Which is again super disturbing but again? I go back to what I said about the driveway footage Like what is the metadata situation and what can I say?

This is where it gets really messy because originally when they when the defense was given everyone's phone records This search wasn't even included It comes out it comes out later and There what the prosecution is saying is no, they're like Karen asked jennifer like as they're out there Please like search see how long it takes like i'm is he dying is he already dead and there are searches at 623 and 624 for that as well now granted the 911 call is 604 or something like that It's like 20 minutes like the timing doesn't totally add up But they're like no, it was just there was a webpage that was opened at 227 and then if you use that webpage They had all these excuses for it and okay fine Here's the here's the big thing that comes in so It comes out later that another software basically was used to do this phone extraction and that software supposedly and it's one done by the feds Says that it was at 227 like we can stop talking about it That's what the the first search was made at 227 a.m. And I don't know how you explain that

I don't think you can't explain it. I'll be very interested to see how it's explained in court at trial I think that's absolutely something a jury is gonna if we're so hung up on that's what 12 strangers are gonna go Let me yeah find the answer to that question The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe You're never truly alone. I'm yvette jendile and i'm her sister russia pecker arrow every friday on so supernatural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation ready to discover what's out there Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast There's some other phone data that's really interesting too. So they he had an iphone and jennifer k-pad an iphone and they've got the abel health data You know, yeah, always being watched always being trapped and it says that john took some steps Around the time that he would have if karen story is true

He would have been going into the house and the defense says look that's proof that he left the car and didn't just get run over Right there. He wouldn't have done that he climbed three flights of stairs He was in that house, but the prosecution says no It also says that he's taking steps after he's found dead at six a.m Now I say of course it shows that it's taking it doesn't know john is taking steps It's the phone is moving the phone had got collected. It's getting moved from department department as they're you know figuring out what to do with it So the to me him moving around after he said that's not of course That's not him like like it seems like a weird thing to even point out They also the health data also says that jennifer mccabe is up all night like pacing She doesn't go to bed. She says she's woken up by a call from karen that she can't find john But apple health data says no ma'am. Yeah, and that okay. That's not the best look for her

But I go back to what I said. It's her phone. That's pacing around So I'm always on the side of devices or devices and they are in the hands of whoever's holding him It does not mean that that that is the owner so I get not as hung up on that The search is what's to me of like great interest someone is plugging that search in and they can find out what time and wait Explain the device thing to me. I guess for jennifer But everyone has agreed john's phone is found under his body. Mm-hmm. So I don't know how the activity before he does

Yeah, it's hard that's hard to wrap my head around as well. Is he in the home? Is he walking around the yard? Is he getting in and out of a vehicle? Yeah, that's like that's really hard to the face So this is all the stuff that that they're fighting about right?

There's you know the defense is like there's no way his injuries were made this way the tail light They're going so far as to accuse the lead investigator of planting the evidence They say that he I don't know where he got tail light, but he planted the evidence they're making a lot of accusations He's covering out for them that sound wild Now It all sounds wild until it comes out that the federal government is conducting an investigation Simultaneously now what they're conducting an investigation into Is not totally confirmed, but we know that they're calling all of the same witnesses So the defense at one point gets a like rumblings of this because the thing i'm not going into that's like Is the honestly a huge part of this case is one of the biggest supporters of care and read is this online blogger YouTuber who goes by an interdable and there has been a ton of controversy around him He's been accused of harassing witnesses like there's a there's a lot of stuff there But so I assume that it's you know through all of that the defense gets some kind of tip that hey

Your witnesses are being there's been a grand jury that indicted Karen, but there is another grand jury that's happening that they're getting called for And it's you know it's not one of them It's all of them and it seems like they're investigating the same thing you are simultaneously Which is really out of the norm to have a federal investigation happening simultaneously in tandem with a state Investigation into a second degree formerly manslaughter charge that right there raises the profile for me and everything that people are saying This is unprecedented. Yeah, usually they let things play out and if there's something to look into if it's prosecutorial misconduct if it is something I don't even think they would deal necessarily because there's also at the same time there ends up being an internal investigation into Michael Proctor Who's the lead investigator for how he handled it and did he have a conflict of interest and did he lie about that conflict?

Because he knew a lot of witnesses at ryan arbor's house. Yeah, but again, that's being handled by internal affairs Yeah, what is the federal government investigating? So when the defense starts hearing this they basically go to prosecution They're like what is going on here? Like if you're calling these what if something is happening that we haven't gotten in discovery and they do basically notice a discovery in the da responds and it's like listen we have no idea what's going on we don't know about a federal investigation So there's nothing for us to give you well. So that's in December 2023 cut to fox 25 had actually been working on a public records request Which they succeeded in getting and you know, I don't know exactly like the days But like as they're getting this the da is like oh, we found some things that we would like to give you And they are communications from back in may so they asked for this in december months before there are email communications from the district attorney's office the commonwealth to the United States attorney's office where the United States attorney's office in may confirms. Yeah, we're doing an investigation

They knew we're subpoenaing your witness and you know if you need to disclose Oh, and like emails are also just like shady themselves because the da is like, you know, if you do anything We're gonna have to share it which is basically like don't mess it up with the defense Yeah, and it's it's been said that there was like some shady stuff even on the other side and that this is turning like you don't have to share We don't have back in fact the point is that they knew this was going on and all of that gets disclosed so there is this federal investigation and In doing so the federal investigation it didn't have to but they end up releasing like 3,000 pages of their investigation to the defense into the prosecution part of what they've gotten and I you know infer this just from some of the filings is Testimony from their grand jury hearings where people are Main people from their case are being asked about again It's clearly about john oke's death or the investigation into it And this is how we learned that michael proctor the lead investigator for sure had a conflict of interest and not only did they have a conflict of interest they went out of their way to Make people believe he didn't I mean there was did you see the video from the da?

Yeah, oh, yeah, that's a very bold very bold thing for district turning to do because there were rumblings right even early on Like I said very early on karen's like trying to figure out who's connected to who yeah and the da I mean like it was firm. He was like there is no impropriety basically there like he has no conflict of interest This is all some wild fishing expedition But you know what perpetuates that though when you keep a secret from the defense that a federal investigation is going on that could potentially result in exculpatory information For your client so if the defense is already going down this what the prosecution is saying a conspiracy theory you're Perpetuating that discharging hiding by hiding and not being forthright So like if that's what you're saying then part of the blame could be on you in your office like did the da know like was michael hiding for everyone And it's I mean it's very clear so 10 days before john dies Michael proctor the lead investigator is texting with julie albert who was related to brian albert whose house it was about babysitting his child That is someone you know yeah, no doubt you trust with your kid more concerning is that two days after john died There are text messages between michael proctor and michael proctor's wife and michael proctor's wife is relaying a message

It says quote just saw julie they're talking about julie albert and julie said when all this is over she wants to give you Dot dot dot dot a thank you gift. I don't know if the dot dot is leaving out things I don't know if it was a true like dot dot dot dot and apparently he responded and said that the gift should be sent to his wife and not him I don't love communication like that because right you can read into it 10 different ways But I think what that says in the big picture is you're too close for comfort and because of that again you could be perpetuating a lot of Questions in windows and theories that ultimately bring your integrity into question And in a case that that is at the core of it at this point that's super problematic julie albert actually comes into this a little bit more too because we haven't really heard much about her Was she there that night was her husband is earning chris albert were they there that night were they not there that night Nobody really seems to agree which is really strange. There is some grand jury testimony They're both at the waterfall. We know that before julie says she went home early with a headache chris walked home when everyone left the bar

The defense says that there is a february 21st report memorializing a statement that the officer whatever took from them back on the 10th So this is like his memory of a statement that happened, you know days ago But it says that they did go back to brian albert's after so the defense is like you didn't even point out this inconsistency in the original grand jury that indicted her Were they were there were they not there so the only theory when I talk about motive because again that's like what the heck happened John barely knew these people the only theory I've seen anyone come up with is that he got into it with brian's nephew again That's the original tips there said something happened with brian and his nephew and so for For there to be a lot of questions was chris there was chris not there for his wife to be the one like we want to give you a gift when all this is over Very suspicious. Well, I think the question is is if you're looking at a in the moment something happened in that house The question naturally is okay. Who had the beef who had the beef with john o' keef even if it was in the momentary split second You know you spell a drink on me or something or is it something that preceded it where there's this kind of growing Issue and I think that's where we need to get to the bottom of who was in the house

When did they get there when did they leave all of that surrounding the timeline of when we know john dies? It's it's hard what they had always said is that everyone stayed for about an hour and then people left or went to bed This is also what's strange to me because you have people leaving the house at say 1 1 30 like around that time Nobody sees john laying in the yard and this is not a big property. I like I get around my head around it Yeah, how can you not see that? Unless you're just blackout which we know some of these witnesses were not somewhere drunk Some were not blackout, but then yeah, how do you not see someone lying there because we know at 1 and even 132 He's not covered in those sixes of snow yet So my question is are there external witnesses like people that were driving on that street or working the blizzard conditions, right?

There's supposedly a snowplow driver who was plowing the street at 2 30 who according to the defense is willing to testify that he did not see john out In the yard at 2 30 morning. I mean, that's a good witness for sure But I again my mind goes to like video. Can we stress on video cameras on these snowplows for the future so that they can start like more ring cameras Nothing and maybe there's something that will come out in trial But I'm shocked that none of the neighbors have anything that is helping solve that or like piece that together Now you talked about who is in the house who's not in the house? What are these their witnesses driving by but I think they're that's what's so loud I mean, there are a lot of witnesses in that house There are a lot of people I said this early on who talk about seeing parents are one of the people in the house was another like person in law enforcement whose name is also brian and that's brian Higgins and There's some strange communication. So again, everyone says that they they leave after hour So everyone's asleep, but then you again you have weird movements. You have a phone moving

There's also some calls reportedly between brian albert and brian Higgins in those early morning hours The federal pro revealed that brian albert called him after 2 a.m And then Higgins called brian albert back both men say that these were butt dials even though They also say that they were sleeping and they're we're supposed to be together at the same house earlier in the night Well earlier in the night where right now, they like left at this point and then they're calling each other So it doesn't totally add up I think that would raise questions right any communication between any members of these witnesses After the fact throughout that night should certainly be observed these stand out for a lot of reasons And then we also know that brian Higgins apparently according to defense stops responding to brian albert at some point After all of this happens he kind of goes dark and I want to read something from one of the hearings from the defense Quote your honor There's only one way to interpret that brian albert was panicked that brian higgins had flipped on him brian albert enlisted his canton police officer brother to contact higgins to try and find out if that was The case so I said early on that canton pd.com's like it out

That's because brian albert's brother kevin was a canton police officer apparently when the federal investigation is going on Kevin albert reaches out to brian higgins to be like hey Why won't you talk to brian albert and they're saying the only way to interpret that is like we need to like get our story straight Yeah, and for me, I think you have to look at what the defense is saying they're saying hey This is all interconnected. This is all really problematic and when you have Communications like this that really supports that especially when those communications could be interpreted as them not only discussing what happened But this federal probe that's happening simultaneously that is everyone's a little worked up about right It's not everyone's story seems to have changed including parents everyone's story seems to have changed a little bit And is that time is that people getting together and making their stories match? Is it is it misremembering? Is it?

Is it hard to remember something that's not the truth or? What and it's the influence to have all of this sort of circus around it in that small community Right? Like people begin to get much more on edge And I know that in some of the source material it's pointed out that the alberts like moved away They got rid of their dog. Yeah, so that again, you can go either way with this so the the conspiracy people will say okay He replaced his floors like moved out his house and got rid of dog shortly after this happens like all of the things and by the way brian albert House was never searched at the time that all this all went down They will say they said they talked to me like it's already was planned for them to move before this happened Their dog got in a fight with another dog like none of this has ties to the case but it looks bad and you had even pointed out I'd move too because yeah, you go back to the turtle boy and all of Karen supporters There was a point where they had a group of people protesters like a hundred people who were driving by all these key people's homes and like shouting with megaphones I would move too. Yeah, and if you're gonna be a witness at a trial like you should as much as you can remove yourself from things But I also again just to speak to that circus element to it

I know in this trial that's like playing out right now. There's a buffer zone around the courthouse Which of course as a journalist and someone who's like no let me in there, you know, I'm not a demonstrator I'm always like no don't keep the people out but at the same time with where this case is now It's clearly necessary or or there's a reason right because of all this background and back history of what's been going on So that really stuck out to me for sure as I got buffer zone around a public courthouse for public proceedings But that just tells you the level that it's gotten to and I feel for John's family because they have received so much hate Which is to me disgusting because like again, they do believe that Karen is responsible Karen supporters have been very vocal That somehow they're bad people. This is their truth and they're what they want it to play out in court And I think it will play out in court and again, not that I necessarily even agree with them, but they have already been victimized I think about John's mom who already lost her daughter and now she lost her son. You've got his niece and his nephew like these are Real people feeling real pain and this is I just can't imagine how this is adding to all of that

There is so much to this case like I could go on for another hour We didn't get into like there was you know another witness who says that they were parked behind Karen in the driveway There is you know, Julie Albert has two different stories of why or when she learned about John's death The stories don't add up when you talk about a case We're supposed to talk about it in reasonable doubt. Do I know if Karen did this? Do I know if anyone else do this? I don't know I do think that there is a lot of reasonable doubt with what's been put forward in the filings so far I do think that the federal government wouldn't be looking at this unless there was something to look at they wouldn't be setting this precedent A federal nexus is what they have to be looking at which goes to much bigger things that have to be observed Right and that has to do with processes Public entities people that hold certain positions. How are their offices managing things?

It's not that the federal government is not looking into whether the prosecution is sharing discovery with the defense They are looking at what happened on a federal level that violated a federal law potentially By these characters or players on either side And that to me is of great interest and I think I kind of want to know what the outcome of that's going to be either At the same time or maybe before even a trial verdict which is going on right now So Karen's trial has started they've gone through jury selection at least at the time of this recording Which is why I wanted to make sure everyone is up to speed on what had happened so far what we're all walking into because I think we're gonna find out So much more once the trial begins. Are you officially on the conspiracy train? Are you it goes all the way the top?

Are you here? I'm officially on this could be its own limited series train, which is my wheelhouse. Yes, so send me to Boston I'm there. I heard that Netflix is like are you been following and planning a doc? It's I mean, there's there's stuff planned for this Yeah, this is one of the stories that like deserves to have a very hard look at it Obviously some of the elements that are in play. I'm super familiar with and it's hard for me not to like make that leap because I've seen it myself

I'm just gonna say so this has a lot of parallels not necessarily the federal investigation You've kind of had to do the overall investigation But the season you have coming out season six of counterclock Do you want to talk about that for like just a second because it's it's a wild intertwined case Yeah, so it's a case that involves different lines worse than agencies conflict of interest of certain individuals It involves, you know a death that could be looked at from a lot of different ways of is it just an accident? Is it something intentional so which is how it started? I mean much like this case got in with this one man's death Was it an accident? Was it murder and then it grew and grew and grew?

All the way to the top so actually counterclock season six the trailer comes out today The first day that we're launching the show you can listen to the trailer on the series xm app or wherever you get podcasts Don't forget to follow this show and counterclock and crime junkie at it to your library We're gonna have a brand new episode the last friday of every single month But if you can't wait head to crime junkie radio for your 24 seven true crime fix You can follow me at Ashley Flowers on instagram dalia at dalia dot dambr.w on instagram And you follow crime junkie at crime junkie podcast. So that's all for this first episode of crime junkie af I will see you back here next month with a new case Right here yet When the nights grow longer the shadows start to stir and that can only mean one thing full body chills is back The season step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker Every stranger carries a secret and nothing is ever quite what it seems each story takes you somewhere new

But be careful you never know what might follow you home So gather around listen close and stream full body chills wherever you get your podcast