Is the Pope integral?

The recent supermoon/lunar eclipse gave Jeff a chance to wonder about the way we interpret such events at different stages of development. When the world was alive with spirits and omens a total lunar eclipse would be a sign saturated in meaning and mystery. We leave this behind as we embrace a logical, scientific worldview. "Then there's a stage that's post or trans-rational," Jeff says, "where that enchantment can be brought back into a new, sacred world that is not limited by a magic or mythic belief system. It's also not limited by the modern scientistic worldview that says if something can't be sensed and measured it doesn't exist." Here we open up once again to dimensions of life which are beyond our full comprehension and explanation, a place of enchantment that includes and transcends reason. Speaking of including and transcending, Pope Francis has been traveling around the world, defying expectations. There is a sense that he is touching people across party lines and ideologies—not an easy thing to do— which has Jeff wondering, is he integral? Jeff's special guest on the podcast, Fr. David McCallum, a Jesuit priest and friend of the integral community, says there are telltale signs. "Pope Francis is able to transcend people's projections of him and continue to stay fresh. He's got this spontaneity that you’d expect from a post-conventional person." In addition, he lives in a kind of simplicity that takes a high degree of inner freedom, and has integrated the forces of power and love to become incredibly effective inside and outside of the church. "This is very, very sophisticated," says Fr. David, "It's not that you have to be always in the later stages to do so but the ability to wield so much influence and to do it in a way that's not authoritarian or autocratic, that is truly empowering." Fr. David and Jeff also discuss aspects of the Jesuit order that shed more light on who Pope Francis is, like their great history of scholarship. For example, a passage inside Pope Francis's Evangelii Gaudium (Apostolic Exhortation of Pope Francis, 2013), makes a modern, rational argument against abortion, emphasizing the sovereignty of the individual. It's pretty amazing. Enjoy the podcast, and a big "thank you" to Fr. David McCallum for sharing his insights.