This is a Global Player original podcast. Even realizing it because of the way I was speaking and the things I would say. And just finding that, I look back at it now and it seems like a completely alien person. The idea that I was sort of going through life, desperately trying to just keep myself level so that, you know, it could be as simple as my shirt was uncomfortable one day or my hair was scratching or somebody sent me an email that panicked me or I said something to somebody I thought was a joke and the tone was wrong and it made me suddenly cause a row.
I just couldn't keep a handle on myself. And I mean, I went to see doctors and I was given antidepressants, which I found, you know, useful at different times. And I sought therapy. And I have done on a number of occasions.
I found different counselors helpful and some honestly really unhelpful. In what way? I think, you know, part of this now is clearly understanding that I have ADHD. So it makes sense that the support I've had since I've had ADHD has been more effective.
I think initially I went and sort of found people who were counselors, but, you know, you sort of was not changing to chat and just talk through feelings. I think there is a reticence, even when you're, the same was for me, even when you sort of get to the place where I go, I need help. There's a reticence to say, I'm going to have to actually dig into some of this painful stuff. I'm going to have to look it in the eye and it's going to be uncomfortable.
And potentially I'm going to have to change some of this. So if you're going to see someone who sort of has a nice chat with you and listens to how you feel, which is appropriate for some people, depending on what their issues are, it doesn't necessarily touch the sights. I've had counselors who have challenged me, but the relationship's been really unhelpful. And there was a particular counselor who found that she got quite emotional in our conversations as well, and that was not in any way helpful or appropriate or appropriate.
But you find yourself in that situation going, but I've invested so much in this and I've spent a lot of money on this and I've spent, you know, I've dug into how I feel and I've started to tell my story and that's really difficult and really painful. And you know what? I don't have to start again with somebody else. So it'll be okay, it'll be okay, it'll be okay.
And it wasn't. And I had spoken before about a brilliant psychotherapist who was found by a family member of mine who was a to, you know, look at the fact that there were underlying issues that were causing what I thought were just sort of anger issues or anxiety. And she was the one who eventually said to me, look, we're doing this work and it's really positive, but there's a repeating cycle and maybe it's time to go and gently have you thought about looking into ADHD. When I found out ADHD, that then unpacked a whole load of other issues.
I went and had DBT, which is essentially about bringing extremes of emotion together into a more sort of balanced way of life. And I, you know, I was diagnosed with traits of borderline personality disorder. I lived in these extremes and that was really helpful, that DBT, on coming to terms with ADHD, but reportedly tackling a lot of the emotional issues that come up alongside. Actually, being undiagnosed ADHD for 37 years, for me, caused depression, it caused anxiety, it caused bad habits to form, you know, in terms of squashing my emotions down.
And there was a lifetime of bad habits that needed unpeaking. And it has been life-changing. And do you feel it's changed you forever? I mean, has it fundamentally changed you?
Yes. And I think there's always a fear about walking away from therapy. You get the point where you go, well, what if I can't manage on my own? What if I, you know, I'm not ready?
And I think what you have to realise is it isn't, right, that's it, all that's done with, all that's tucked away, I'm fixed. I'm never going to be like that again. I just need to go off into the world and I'm a new me. It's, I've had periods of being down and I'll probably have periods of being down again.
And I have ADHD and that's not going away. But what I'm able to do is accept I have ADHD. I know how to manage myself. And the most crucial thing about my DBT is that when the voice came, it used to come a lot that everything's pointless, what's the point?
If that voice comes now, I can say to myself, I'm tired today. Or maybe this thing that I'm going through is really difficult. But I won't feel like this tomorrow. It's a passing thought and I can let that go.
And that's life-changing. Gosh, it's like you've become your own counsellor, in a way. Well, I think you get resilience. You learn resilience.
And I know that you have had, you know, experience of trying to find a counsellor, not for yourself, but for a family member, and you found that really difficult. It's so interesting what you said just now about how you found a breakthrough therapist because somebody in the family who knows about these things found that therapist for you, right? Because my experience was I was looking for a therapist for a family member and not having that level of knowledge made it so hard. I mean, it got so hard because, you know, I knew from making this podcast, from us having the privilege of talking to all these amazing experts, that the first and most important thing was that you look to somebody with an ADHD specialist and that's the part of how they work.
Great. But when I went on to the BACP, as I did in my case, I realised how many different kinds of therapy there are. You know, Gestalt and Humistik and there's Freud and then there's no, there's CBT and there's the DBT that you talk about, or there's group therapy, or there's one-to-one, and they're all different prices. I mean, some could be double the others.
Do you do it online? Or is it important that you meet face-to-face? I was absolutely at sea when it came to trying to figure out who was the right person. And I realised it was really important that you and I sat down and talked to somebody who could give us some answers on this because, you know, in the end, you want to get it right.
You have found it's life-changing and you want to make sure that the person that you give your life and soul to is the right one. Indeed. There is a cost associated with this. You know, there's a financial cost, but there's also a cost of putting yourself out there and trying to dig into that stuff.
And I think, you know, that is a barrier for lots of people. So I think it'd be really good to get some answers as to how you find a therapist and what the best type of therapy is for ADHD. So we're going to speak to Clare Patterson, a psychotherapist and member of the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy, in a moment. Hello, Clare.
Thanks for joining us. Katie and I have talked about trying to find a therapist, trying to find the right person who suits what you need if you've got ADHD and can help you learn to manage your ADHD and perhaps also learn to deal with some of the other issues that have come up alongside it. If somebody listening to this has ADHD, they are starting the process of finding a therapist. What sort of things should they consider?
Where should they start? Well, first of all, fantastic place to start by actually starting therapy. I think with the symptoms of ADHD and the challenges that can come up with that, having a professional to talk to somebody who understands the challenges of those symptoms, understands how that can present itself. Just that in itself is incredibly helpful.
Most therapists have had training when it comes to understanding how ADHD presents itself, many of the issues that that can bring. And another thing with ADHD is there's often a sort of sense of sometimes a low self-esteem or sometimes a kind of stigma or sort of, oh, there's something wrong with me or there's, you know, sometimes people feel anxiety that comes with that as well. So there's a number of things that can be worked on through therapy with ADHD. And again, it's having that structure, having weekly therapy, normally it's weekly when you start having therapy, that can be very helpful having that place to go, that consistency, those boundaries, and having all of that mirrored by a therapist who is boundary consistent and very professional trained and knows what they're doing.
That is also very helpful to sort of start that journey for somebody with ADHD. And, you know, the results can be incredibly effective. I've had clients who have ADHD who now might not qualify for the diagnosis. So it is effective.
So I'd say, first of all, fantastic that you've been looking. And in terms of finding the right therapist, it's very much a, it's a personal fit. It's somebody who you feel that you can connect with, somebody who sort of gets you, somebody who understands how things are showing up for you. You can only have an initial chat with somebody, sort of 10, 15 minute chat.
And sort of going from there, it has to be a very personal decision who your therapist is. But first of all, it is very, very helpful having therapy when you have ADHD. So I'm glad you're asking the question. So what is the very first step that you can take towards finding a therapist?
Going on a directory. I mean, there's the BACP, so I'm with the BACP, which is the British Association of Counselling and Psychotherapy. There's also the UKCP. There's the Counselling Directory.
That's three. There's one more. Psychology Today is also quite good. Are these trusted organisations that essentially kind of list trained people?
Yes. Yes. So absolutely important to get someone accredited, which is why BACP is an accrediting organisation. So all the counsellors on there have had a robust enough training to be able to support with ADHD.
Was the different kinds of therapy that were offered, the Gestalt, the CBT, the DBT, the blah, blah, blah, blah. And the list was so baffling. Is there a particular kind of therapy that I should be looking for? It's so incredibly personal.
I mean, I'm interpretive, which means I am a kind of deckable trace, really. So the main parts of therapy, to break it down, it's psychodynamic is looking more at your past, so how your childhood might have influenced your present. So if you had sort of an absent father, that might have meant you're more kind of self-reliant, or, you know, the man or woman of the house, you get more responsibility than you had to. That might then lead to challenges of boundaries and expectations of other people.
So that would be kind of looking at that. Psychodynamically would be understanding how your childhood has shaped you as a person today. So sort of, you know, family, environment, upbringing, that kind of thing. Humanistic is sort of Carl Rogers, who founded that, and that's very much relational.
So that's looking at the relationship between the therapist and the client. So that would be, I mean, my ADHD clients, oh, you haven't paid for this session, what's all that about? So you've shown up late again this week, what's going on here? And often there's, you know, the relationship is mirrored in the therapy room that they experience with their partner, with their colleagues, with their friends.
So it might be that, you know, the feelings the therapist has towards the client, the feelings the client has towards the therapist can be brought into the room. So I'm feeling really irritated with you. I don't know why. Okay, let's look at that.
You know, I'm an authority representative, perhaps. What does that mean to you? When you show up late, does that make me feel? What are you trying to, you know, what might be going on for you when you're showing up late?
So that's more the sort of relational side of it. That's humanistic. Then there's existential, which I personally quite find interesting. That's looking at meaning of life, freedom, you know, purpose.
So that's looking at more of the deeper aspects of the psychology. And then, yeah, there's the style, which is sort of body language. So the client sitting there like this, quite rigid with their hands, you know, clasper their arms, or they're clenching their fists, you might say, oh, is there some anger here, perhaps? You know, what's going on here?
Your body language tells a story. You know, our bodies tell quite a lot about us, you know, the non-verbal communication. So there's lots of others, but those are kind of the four main ones. And if you're integrative, you can sort of pick and choose from those four types.
And again, CBT, I've not mentioned that, and DBT, those are more sort of structured approaches which can be helpful with ADHD. Those are kind of picked and choose from as well as part of the therapy. That was really useful. And actually, I'm probably going to ask you just a tiny bit more, because I think CBT is the thing that people, if they go to the doctor and they say they need some help is usually the thing that they're offered.
Perhaps briefly, just give us an idea if someone with ADHD would go, what sort of things a CBT therapist would do? So CBT, I mean, that is the thing the NHS is mainly offering, that it's very evidence-based. It's more short-term CBT. So if you have sort of anxious thoughts, you've got stuck beliefs, CBT will try and tackle that.
Again, a client who was diagnosed with ADHD, actually, we worked for CBT, and he had a belief about his self-worth. He believed that he had to do things in order to be worthy to sort of have people like him. He had to please people in particular, and he had to do things for other people. I'm not good enough, was his core belief.
So with CBT, we'd look at that. That would be a thought. Okay, the thought is, I need to buy a whole round of drinks for everyone in the bar in order to be liked. That's the thought.
And then you look at the feelings. Okay, well, what feelings are driving that? And that might be the sort of sense of anxiety. And then the behavior is acting in overly generous ways, acting in ways that are damaging for his wallet and his liver, frankly.
You sort of look at how it all relates together, the thoughts, the feelings, and the behaviors. And it's very helpful, because it's logical. You can look at that, and you can say, well, why the heck am I doing that? Because looking at the behavior, he had an addictive personality as well.
So gambling was another thing. You sort of look at the behavior. I'm going to gamble. I'm going to spend money.
And it's interesting, because you can say, okay, well, that's coming from that feeling of anxiety. That's coming from that thought of, I need to do something in order to feel worthy. So it gives us a sort of framework or template to explore within the therapy. So what we would do is we'd have a look at that feeling of anxiety.
Where's that coming from? When was the first time you felt that? Looking at that thought, what makes you think that? What's happened in your life as well?
You could believe that about yourself. So it's a sort of springboard, really, CBT. I wouldn't say, I mean, the way I work is more long-term, so I wouldn't say that was to fix. But it can certainly be a nice structured approach.
It's all on a piece of paper. It's all got like graphs. People like it because it's clear and it's structured and it's simple. But it can then open up a lot more to explore at a later date.
You mentioned integrative. You mentioned you're an integrative therapist. And I'm interested in whether all therapists are integrative and whether or not you feel that that's a necessary thing for us to be looking for. I think with ADHD, it would be helpful.
I love ADHD clients and the way the brain tends to function when you have the symptoms of ADHD because it's just incredibly creative. It's really quite an intuitive way of working when you're integrative. It's seeing the person as a person. It's not a Freudian analysis, which is a psychodynamic approach.
That's very much modelled on particular theories or ideas from textbooks. So, okay, there's the Oedipus complex. There's the super ego, the ego. There's all these compulsions in Freudian psychology.
And it's treating somebody like a doctor, which there's a diagnosis and there's a tick box thing and they fit into a particular model. And with ADHD, it's so creative. And there's such a uniqueness and individuality to everyone. So I would say that integrative, if you want somebody who genuinely wants to get to know you as an individual and not just the collection of symptoms, what's underneath the ADHD?
Who are you? Who is the actual person underneath these symptoms? And that's what we want to work with. That's what we want to address.
And that's why integrative is very helpful. Can we talk about what happens if you find yourself in a relationship with a therapist and it doesn't seem to be working? What do you do then? What are the signs that you should be looking for that might tell you to go and maybe find a new therapist?
Well, it's a really good question, actually, because a lot of the time with my clients with ADHD, they do leave therapy because it's the commitment and it's a lot, paying on time, showing up, talking about things that are actually quite difficult sometimes. It's a really big commitment. And they might say, oh, the therapy's not working. I don't feel like she gets me.
I don't feel... And there could be a lot of reasons that they might use for why they wanted to end that therapy, which is actually because they don't want to do the therapy. So you've got to be very careful that that's not what you're doing. But then there are some quite clear, what you might call red flags, savvy, silvers and therapists, boundaries if your therapist is showing up late or if the session's overrunning, I notice that with my clients who have ADHD, I'm very mindful of that start at the right time, end at the right time.
Even if they're late, we're going to end at exactly the same time because that's very important. And it can be quite easy as a therapist to let the session run on because they're so creative. They tend to talk a lot. There's a lot of jumping from topic to topic.
The mind is just so wonderfully active. So you can sort of follow them. And it's incredibly interesting. It'll be five minutes to go and they'll start telling anecdotes about what happened earlier in the week.
And you've got to say, I've got to stop you there. We have come to time. Obviously, there's something very emotive that's coming up. You might say, okay, we can have a few more minutes.
But if a therapist is running over, that might be an indication that they have not got the boundaries that they need to have to work with you. Anything they disclose about their own personal lives, that might also be a bit of a red flag, especially early on in the work. Again, with clients with ADHD, they're often very personable. I've got some very charming clients and very interesting.
And they often ask about me, which is quite interesting as well. How was your week, Claire? How are you? That's an ADHD thing.
I don't do that. I should always do that. Yeah, we can't help it. You know, it's not a problem.
But I always say, this is about you. This is not about me. And if you notice that your therapist is maybe taking that bait, perhaps, that they're sort of sharing a bit, talking about their kids, you know, how their week's been, that might be something that they're needing. You know, that might be about their needs and it might be sort of an indication that their boundaries aren't quite as they are.
ought to be those would be a couple of the things but there's a bit of ethical conduct you can have a look with therapists and if they're sort of engaging in that behavior that's also not right one thing i want to ask you claire is we've talked about coaching quite a bit when it comes to adhd what are the differences between therapy and coaching traditional therapy is more you know looking at the past and how it shaped you it was obviously freud and young with the founders of it and it was all about how your past experiences have led to your present reality and you know there's a lot of value in that we've all been shaped by our experiences and our beliefs and our cultures really and therapy is the process of understanding the conditioning you know looking at the conditioning looking at okay well my teacher said that to me in year five and that had this effect on me and my parents divorced and i felt like it was my fault and that might believe xyz it's sort of looking at the events of our lives that have shaped us whereas coaching is much more okay what am i going to do in the future what do i have in the present day moment what skills have i got you know creativity resilience maybe artistic skills what can i do with what i have right now how long should therapy last because it's not cheap let's be honest how much are they committing to in terms of hours so they can work out how much is going to cost them it's very very individual um i've had clients who've been with me for years i've had some who make incredible progress a few months if there's a particular situation like a relationship breakdown normally about six months you can have a sort of very very profound shift in that period of time there's a deep rooted you know elements of the personality disorder things that have sort of happened in early life that have been incredibly dramatic it will be years to sort of get to the root of those and pick them because the trust needs to be there between the therapist and the client and that does take time if you've had your trust damage at quite a young age it can take time to rebuild that and then you can't do the work until the trust there so you need to have a therapist you can build that up with but generally in six weeks i'll say to clients you'll see that it's having an impact you know things start to kind of sink in i was talking to my life coach the day about you know actually the physical the practical benefits of therapy i was saying i'd love to be a survivor coach and kind of look at food you know the impacts of turmeric and have an eye health for example because that's more tangible that's more measured you can say yeah take a teaspoon you can actually measure the effects of that and he actually said to me well you know claire is that not the same as what you say to your clients is that not the same as thoughts because actually you have an insight you have a profound thought that comes in a session you say that out loud you speak those words you make that connection you know surely that's just as beneficial as a shot of ginger and turmeric or you know on your nervous system on your physiology you know there's a rewiring of the brain neural pathways just making those connections for people and it's life-changing i have clients who sort of suddenly think oh my god i married my mother and you know just just that sort of just just that moment of making that connection was that positive well sometimes they can work through it it's interesting like anything anything anything like that is it can be powerful it can shift so it'd be good actually just to say a little bit more about that because i think there might be people listening to this who don't really understand what the idea of therapy is you know it's like i sit in a room and i talk about how i feel when somebody listens but actually what you're describing there is looking at why you feel that way and what the root causes and cause of effective things so that you can essentially come to terms with perhaps some of the feelings that you don't understand i mean that's not a great explanation over to you what would you say yeah i think it's just about accepting yourself really it's just about sort of seeing that you know there's nothing really wrong with you you're the way you are because you're the way you are you know there's nothing you've done that's bad i think i think so often people blame themselves and they seem to say oh i'm the way i am because i've done something wrong i'm a bad person i've got something wrong in my brain or i'm somehow you know flawed somehow and it's not true i've never met a single person who i thought that about it's just about coming to terms with the belief that you can get better and work through some of those feelings and thoughts that might be getting in the way of even that hope that you can get better you know people come in and there's just this incredibly dark depression sometimes that they think i'm never going to get better i'm never going to be free i'm never going to be happy i'm never going to be anything that they want to success or to relationships and it's about working through that very sticky belief sometimes and accessing that part of them which is healthy and it is at the root of those messages they might internalize a lot of feelings it's a bit like peeing an onion you've got to sort of go through it to get to the core and there can be quite a lot of mess and you know tears and it's not necessarily an easy process and it's not always um smooth but it is very rewarding and it does absolutely work and yeah i guarantee there is success with that is there a difference between one-to-one therapy and group therapy some people love group therapy i'm thinking group therapy group actually just because i love facilitating it as well there's a lot that comes from group therapy which is in the interpersonal connections what i like about running workshops and groups is that you sort of share something and other people jump in and you know yes i've got a five year training course but that you know that's not sort of life experience it also counts for a lot so just because i've had my training doesn't mean that somebody who's experienced this for 50 60 70 years might not have something to say that's more helpful than what i've got to say certainly and i think from my experience when i mean i did dbt and with that you do group and individual therapy at the same time and the group therapy is challenging and it's deliberately so it is sort of saying you know you are expected to participate and what you said actually right you look at other people and you realize you're not the only one which as we know with adhd is so helpful to find out there are other people and you can see them online you can see them on the screen gritting their teachers as i am and sort of you know desperately not wanting to take part but also you start to see that some people have the same outlook as you and that they come from the same place it doesn't mean that you've all got the same problem but you start to recognize that perhaps you can help each other by sharing your experience but also i think where there's a resistance to talk in an environment like that you sort of have to take part and sometimes it sort of encourages you to actually explore your own feelings whereas if you're one-to-one you might just i'm not going to say anything because i don't have to and i suppose that as you say there somebody else sharing their feelings kind of makes it easier for you to do it too don't you presumably for different issues you know certain types of therapy we've talked about are more appropriate than others and presumably there are some things which are appropriate one-to-one and some things appropriate for groups yeah that's true i mean i think with the borderline personality for example that can sometimes have challenges in groups sometimes groups can be incredibly helpful because it's sort of you catch the projections a lot of projection with that personality but sometimes it can also be very challenging being in a group you know for social anxiety that would not be appropriate to be in a group that would also be one-to-one as well so i was just thinking again the benefit of being in a group is that other people there have been through what you're going through sometimes when you're one-to-one with a therapist you might look at that therapist and think oh my god she's never had any problems in her life wow she's got everything sorted you know i'm the mad one here i've got all these issues and you know you can sort of sometimes feel a bit like there's a power imbalance sometimes with that i mean there's absolutely not but you can project a lot onto the therapist and think that you know you're the one with the problem and they're the one who isn't the one with the problem but in the group it's almost like we're all just here together we're all just we're all humans in a room which is really what therapy is but in a group it's more apparent that that's the case you know everyone there is a human who's had their own experiences and we're all here working on it together trying to find answers that will help us through other people's stories other people sharing you know coming together and connecting there's a bit more authenticity and openness when it comes to the group with them being vulnerable what you can't do that as a therapist you know self-disclosure is not quite so um appropriate unfortunately but you know in a group it is so that can also help well i mean people listening to this podcast can judge for themselves i would say therapy's been very very effective for me and at the very least you can judge from what claire said and hopefully that was really useful it was really useful for me claire thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us i really enjoyed it thank you that was a really enlightening conversation i thought didn't you yeah i thought it was really really interesting and she had some great advice didn't she yeah she really did and i think you know there's some good advice there about the different types of therapy but ultimately it is going to be personal which is why it's a good idea to sort of talk to the therapist first and get an idea of whether it's going to work for you and don't forget we'll have a bit more about this and our reaction to this in our bonus episode this week absolutely thank you so much for joining us on you're wrong about adhd if you found this episode helpful do please subscribe rate and leave a review all helps and don't forget to follow us on social media for updates and to get in touch via our email adhdpodcast at global.com until next time take care you're wrong about adhd is made in association with apex content ventures this is a global player original podcast