Islam vs Cell Phones: Down 25% In 10 Years

In this episode of Based Camp, Malcolm and Simone Collins examine the rapid secularization underway in many Muslim-majority countries—often at a faster proportional rate than Christianity’s decline in the West. They walk through Arab Barometer and related data showing sharp rises in secular identification from 2012–2019 in Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, and Egypt, followed by a partial rebound in the early 2020s.The conversation covers declining trust in Islamist parties (Muslim Brotherhood, Ennahda, Justice and Development Party), sub-replacement fertility across much of the region, and existential water scarcity in Egypt and Iran. They then dig into the drivers of deconversion: smartphone access to historical sources, the Islamic slave trade’s scale and character, Muhammad’s documented ownership of slaves (including Black slaves), Aisha’s age in the hadith literature, key Quranic verses on women, violence, sexual slavery, apostasy, and internal inconsistencies.Malcolm ranks the most common reasons people report leaving Islam, notes the heavy influence of modern egalitarian (“urban monoculture”) values, and offers a Techno-Puritan perspective on whether the tradition can be reconciled with reality-affirming religion. Simone adds her view on the ethical implications. The discussion is candid, data-driven, and frequently interrupted by family life.Based_Camp_-_Islam_Shiftsmp4 (1)[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Simone, I’m excited to be here with you today. Today we are gonna be talking about a fascinating phenomenon, which is the collapse of Islam- Hmm ... in the Muslim world. And a lot of people are unaware that Islam has had as, as bad of a time as Christianity has had in the West.[00:00:21] Simone Collins: Yeah,[00:00:21] Malcolm Collins: it’s taken a beating.[00:00:21] At least proportionally, Islam is having a worse time in Muslim majority countries- Is it[00:00:29] Simone Collins: really? ...[00:00:30] Malcolm Collins: in terms of the speed of the collapse. So if you go from 2012 to 2014, all right?[00:00:38] Simone Collins: Okay.[00:00:39] Malcolm Collins: In Tunisia, you had 22% of people were secular. If you go to 2018 to 2019, so this is just less than a decade... Yeah, le- about...[00:00:52] What is it? Yeah, less than a decade later, it jumped up to 46%.[00:00:56] Speaker 3: Huh, huh.[00:00:57] Malcolm Collins: Okay. 22% to 46%. If you go to Libya, it’s 18% in the 2012 to 2014. Okay. 2018 to ‘19, it goes from 18% to 36%. Algeria, it goes from 13% to 24%. Morocco, it went from 4% to 22%. Stop. And in Egypt, it went from 3% to 18%. Now, I want people to understand that these are countries where you can be killed for deconverting from Islam.[00:01:32] Simone Collins: And- In... Wait, in which of these countries is that ki- like, in, in... ‘Cause I thought, like, caliphates only really existed in, at roughly, like... Okay, this is my uneducated, super unedu- it... I wanna say, I wanna say, like, Afghanistan and Iran Right? Like- Okay,[00:01:48] Malcolm Collins: countries that will kill you legally, not mob justice. In these other countries it can be mob justice.[00:01:53] But legally- But like ruled[00:01:54] Simone Collins: by Sharia law.[00:01:55] Malcolm Collins: Like- It’s the death penalty in Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mauritania, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Somalia, the Maldives, Brunei, and some parts of Nigeria, and certain states in Malaysia.[00:02:08] Simone Collins: For what? For proselytizing Christianity or just being an unbeliever?[00:02:10] Malcolm Collins: No,[00:02:11] Simone Collins: for[00:02:11] Malcolm Collins: deconverting.[00:02:13] Simone Collins: How... How do they track that? And keep in mind,[00:02:16] Malcolm Collins: Iran appears to have a massive secular population now-[00:02:19] Simone Collins: Yeah. No, that- ... even[00:02:20] Malcolm Collins: though it’s the[00:02:20] Simone Collins: death[00:02:21] Malcolm Collins: penalty ... Oh, it’s,[00:02:22] Simone Collins: So wait, so like everyone like goes to the mosque regularly? Like how do they track... I mean, I’m just trying to figure out like how you make a case for having someone-[00:02:32] Malcolm Collins: The p- the point I’m making here is the numbers are almost certainly worse.[00:02:35] Now, what is interesting is many of these places many of these places have had a a boost post this happening.[00:02:44] Speaker 3: Oh gosh. Where did I, where did I post the, I’ll have to open it[00:02:47] Simone Collins: in Chrome again. Wait, did you get kicked again by a ghost? What, what, what was...[00:02:50] Malcolm Collins: No, something fell over.[00:02:52] Simone Collins: Wait. Shut up Was it a ghost?[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: Was it[00:02:55] Simone Collins: a ghost? I’m so excited for ghosties. Ghosties. Spooky. Or... Oh, no, I should say jinn, because >. Jinn, jinn, jinn, jinn. So, if[00:03:11] Malcolm Collins: we look at wave three, we’ve seen a bit of a reduction. So 2021 to 2022. What is wave three?[00:03:16] Simone Collins: What...[00:03:17] Malcolm Collins: Oh. So if you go to Tunisia, it’s to 31% now.[00:03:21] If, if you go to Libya, it’s 24% now. You s- also saw a five-point drop in Algeria, a seven-point drop in Morocco, and a six-point drop in Egypt. So you-[00:03:34] Simone Collins: A drop in the number of atheists, in the percentage[00:03:36] Malcolm Collins: of atheists. A drop in the number of atheists. So you’ve had a[00:03:39] Simone Collins: slight drop- Wait, and over what year, over what year period, Malcolm?[00:03:42] Malcolm Collins: This is 2018 to ‘21, 2021 to 2020, so a fairly short time. Mm-hmm. So basically you had a big wave out, and a small wave back in, and we’ll see where the net is. But it’s worse than that, because you also have the problem of low [00:04:00] support of Islamic parties. So, If we look at the various things here, like the Egyptian Brotherhood, sorry, the, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.[00:04:10] Mm-hmm. In 2011, it had a trust rate of 44%. By 2018 to ‘19, it had a trust rate of only 17%. In the Tunisia, the Ennahda had a decline of 24 points since 2011, roughly down from a 40% range. And now with one detailed team survey showing it being at only 11 to 16% now. Wow. And in Morocco, the Justice and Development, the main Islamic party, went from 44% in 2013 to 25% in 2019.[00:04:42] A 20-point decline were reported for Muslim Brotherhood, Brotherhood groups in Jordan and Morocco as well. So You are basically seeing a lower degree of trust in the institutions that were meant to bring sort of Islam to everyone. And on top of all of this, we’re seeing fairly low fertility rates or extremely low fertility rates for the poverty in these regions across these regions as well.[00:05:11] Generally below the United States fertility rate. So Tunisia has a fertility rate of 1.53 to 1.58. Iran has a fertility rate of 1.6. Saudi Arabia has a fertility rate of 2.1 maybe, so they- they’re doing better than us. And UAE and other Gulf states have a fertility rate of 1.3 to 1.7, so very low.[00:05:34] Simone Collins: And- It’s lower than I’m sure anyone would expect, even in the case of the rare but still present above replacement country.[00:05:42] Because people think- Yeah ... Muslim country, and they’re like, “Oh, we’re talking families like six on average, right?” No. Like, no.[00:05:49] Malcolm Collins: No, no, nope.[00:05:51] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:05:51] Malcolm Collins: We are seeing a collapse across the board. And it gets worse. We’re potentially better, and we should be grateful that this collapse is happening, or they should be grateful, is they’re also across the Arab world well, I should say Muslim world because it’s happening in Iran, too, about to run out of water.[00:06:12] Egypt right now, a- a- at current figures has a threshold of 490 to 500 meters squared per year in terms of the- the quality that puts it- it right below the scarcity threshold and less than half the UN water poverty line. Mm. And this has been a massive decline from historical levels. If you look at what does it mean to have, sorry, water levels at 490 to 500 meters, square meters, if we look at the 1960s, they had levels at 2,000 cubic meters.[00:06:47] Not good. If you look at the 1990s, it had fallen to 1,000 cubic meters, and now it’s at only 500 cubic meters And 98% of their fresh water comes from the Nile, which the country upstream of them can dam, and currently is damming. So it’s likely going to get worse. You have this at the same problem as Iran’s water problem that’s literally leading to giant sinkholes.[00:07:12] See our episode of, like, the hell on earth it is to live in Iran. R- this we did before the war talking about just how bad it’s gotten in Iran with their water situation. But we’re also seeing this across the region because, you know, oth- these regions are supplying other regions with water. The reason they’re doing the dam is ‘cause they’re also low on water.[00:07:31] Mm-hmm. And when a lot of these regions run out of water, there isn’t a lot they can do. They don’t have the economy or the economic capacity that a country like Israel does to run on desalination. Mm-hmm. So that sort of means that they don’t have a future. Like, when we did the Iran video, the answer to the future of Iran is Iran functionally has no future.[00:07:52] Mm-hmm. Y- there is no way that it can continue to operate at the population levels it’s operating at right now. Well,[00:07:57] Simone Collins: and, and with the water levels and [00:08:00] the, yeah, just the infrastructure issues at play.[00:08:03] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So this has been a massive issue. So the question is, one, when we think about the future of the Muslim world, what’s gonna happen?[00:08:12] If we think about the future of Islam, what’s going to happen, and why are we seeing these massive deconversions? The first thing to note is we’re not seeing them as heavily in migrant communities. Migrant communities appear to have a degree of protection from this. So where we’re going to see our more moderated Muslims are going to be in Muslim majority countries in the future, be- largely ‘cause we’re creating this, which is why it’s so important that we manage deportations more aggressively.[00:08:37] Because a lot of the times these are people who were extreme even in the countries that they’re coming from. So why, why are we having this issue? Thoughts, Simone, before I go further.[00:08:50] Simone Collins: I’m assuming it’s bad governance of the countries. I, I, like, I, I can’t imagine it actually being a result of doctrinal issues, for example.[00:08:58] I, I can only imagine it being corrupt governance. Is that it? What, what do you... Tell me.[00:09:05] Malcolm Collins: It’s, it’s, it’s... Well, it’s, it’s doctrinal and people learning history, basically. It’s- Oh ... chartable, and there’s some studies that have looked at this, to the proliferation of cell phones.[00:09:14] Simone Collins: Basically- Oh, no. So it’s kind of like with the LDS church suddenly hemorrhaging people because they’re able to find, what is it, the letter?[00:09:21] I’m assuming.[00:09:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the, the whatever letter. Yeah. Which is a very convincing document, by the way. I, I would... If I was LDS and I found that, I’d be like, “Ooh.”[00:09:28] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:09:29] Yeah. Well, no, that’s the problem, is that so many members of the church have been one-shotted by that one letter. You know, someone’s just like, “Look it up,” and they do.[00:09:37] So could... So are you, you’re suggesting basically that there’s some rough equivalent or constellation of equivalents for Islam? For Islam?[00:09:48] Malcolm Collins: The problem with Islam-[00:09:49] Simone Collins: It’s the CES letter. It’s the CES letter ...[00:09:51] Malcolm Collins: The CES letter. That makes it so much weaker than Christianity is Christianity owns the atrocities it committed in its history, the bad things that happened around its history.[00:10:02] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:10:02] Malcolm Collins: You expose those to a Christian, and generally they’re like, “Yeah, I was aware of all that.” Right? Like, “What, what are you talking about?”[00:10:10] Simone Collins: Yeah. “[00:10:11] Malcolm Collins: The Inquisition? F**k off. Everybody knows about that,” right? Yes ... but Islam genuinely, to a lot of people who converted into it, billed itself as something that is completely at odds with the historic reality that is Islam.[00:10:28] So if I’m gonna give an example of what I mean by this in the United States, a lot of Black people converted into Islam because they’re like, “Well, my ancestors were converted by Christians, and that means Christianity is bad because it’s Christians that enslaved them, and so Christianity is, like, an anti-African religion.”[00:10:47] And it’s like Actually, if we look at the number of Black Africans that were enslaved by Muslims, that slave trade or the slave trade that evolved into that slave trade was active for 1,300 years. It’s the oldest slave age in human history. It is still an active slave trade. There’s still, like, open air slave markets in places like Libya.[00:11:13] Simone Collins: What?[00:11:13] Malcolm Collins: The United States one was only active for 350 years. Worse, it was a larger slave trade. So it has, like, you- if you look at scholars on this, typically you’re looking at a range of 10 to 18 million Africans were enslaved over this. And then you get way lower numbers, or at least for average numbers, for the American slave trade, which was only 11.5 to 14 million people in comparison.[00:11:42] So-[00:11:42] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s a bad look. Yeah.[00:11:44] Malcolm Collins: Why is[00:11:45] Simone Collins: that? But- I’m just so mad that people don’t say things like ... No one ever, no one ever taught me that. I learned so much about slavery in, like, every single grade of American public school.[00:11:55] Malcolm Collins: But, but the, the Black people can be like, “Well, then why aren’t there Black people all over the [00:12:00] Arab world?”[00:12:01] And the answer is, is because the slave trade was demonstrably worse than the American slave trade. Because what were they interested in? What, what, what, what... Americans, you know, you, we, we import slaves as Protestants, the first thing we think is, “Hmm, I bet you would be great for labor.” But when a Muslim country imports slaves, they’re usually looking for sex slaves.[00:12:29] And that is what they did with them. They would take the men and castrate them so that they couldn’t create stable communities, and sometimes use them as sex slaves still. And all of the women would be put into sex slavery. Hmm. Yeah ... because that is part of their culture. It’s, it’s not part of the American slave culture.[00:12:48] It’s not that, like, grapes never happened, but they were often punishable even by your community and seen as a very bad thing to do. No, come[00:12:55] Simone Collins: on. They were pervasive. Don’t even. But, like, still.[00:12:59] Malcolm Collins: No, they were not as pervasive as is you-[00:13:02] Simone Collins: It was looked down upon. People weren’t proud of it. It wasn’t, like, out in the open.[00:13:06] Malcolm Collins: A- and you could be punished for it in m- I’m pretty sure in all states.[00:13:11] Simone Collins: Yeah, I’m sure in theory, but, like, you know, there was just that certainly- You certainly didn’t[00:13:15] Malcolm Collins: put[00:13:15] Simone Collins: out slaves as sex slaves ... understood[00:13:18] Malcolm Collins: slave to be had. So I decided to double-check, and in the South, there actually, it was legal in a lot of states.[00:13:26] Explicitly, there was one court case in whi- in which one male slave raped another female slave who was 10, and he was not convicted because it was deemed as not illegal. That’s how severe it was. That said, also, we know that, I also double-checked that Mohammed definitely had lots of sex slaves. That is recorded in the Quran.[00:13:48] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:13:49] Malcolm Collins: Which I think shows just a demonstrably worse level. And they, the way that they did the castrations on the males was so brutal that you had death rates of, I think it was... God, what was it? I’m trying to find the numbers here. You have mortality rates of 60 to[00:14:07] Simone Collins: 90%. Go... mm.[00:14:09] Malcolm Collins: In some studies. So they’re kinda just Basically, they just killed the males[00:14:12] taunting them. They didn’t really care if the male survived. They were just- But they[00:14:14] Simone Collins: just wanted to kill them in, like, one of the most painful and humiliating ways possible.[00:14:19] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, and I mean, they’re still super, super racist against Blacks in most Arab countries- Oh my God ... right? Like-[00:14:24] Simone Collins: Yeah, I think what, in, in, in...[00:14:25] Or no, sorry, that’s an African country where, like, the word for slave is just also the word for Black person.[00:14:31] Malcolm Collins: No, this is, this is true in a lot of Arab countries.[00:14:33] Simone Collins: Oh, God ...[00:14:34] Malcolm Collins: and a lot of people are, “Oh, that’s just normal.” It’s like, no, it’s not. Like, we stopped saying the N-word, right? Like, you guys can’t stop calling them slaves just because, “Well, that’s how they think of them.”[00:14:44] Keep in mind, the largest- Yeah, but the N-word[00:14:45] Simone Collins: doesn’t mean, the, the N-word doesn’t mean sla- slave. It never did ...[00:14:49] Malcolm Collins: the largest genocide on Earth right now is currently being carried out by a group of Muslims against a group of African Blacks, right? Mm-hmm. And it’s had a death toll at 10X the Gaza death toll- But God[00:15:04] Simone Collins: forbid anyone talk about that one.[00:15:06] No[00:15:06] Malcolm Collins: God forbid. But a number of, and ‘cause we saw this in the United States, a lot of Blacks thought that it was, like, cool or traditionally Black to be Muslim, and so they converted, and so you got these Black Muslim communities. And so, but, but not just there, but like in other parts of, if you’re talking about in Muslim countries and stuff like this, there’s this realization of like, “Oh my God, like this is really bad.”[00:15:28] And the child bride thing, ‘cause a lot of people are like, “Oh, Aisha could have been older.” Like, it, and this progressive Muslim I met told me this way of reading it that makes Aisha not six and nine. However, in the Muslim world, especially in conservative Muslim countries, they believe the six and nine ages, like everyone does, so it’s, it’s largely irrelevant whether or not it was the case.[00:15:49] But what it means is a lot of people hear this, “Oh, he’s a perfect moral person,” and then it’s, “Oh, he married a six-year-old and slept with a nine-year-old,” right? Like [00:16:00] A lot of them see that And their takeaway from that is, this seems really bad. Like, I don’t know how to square this. Like, I have a six-year-old kid, right?[00:16:14] Like, Octavian, our kid, is six years old. That’s the age of one of his wives, right? Like, they begin to learn... Like, really it’s, it’s, it’s very much sort of like with Protestants, they read the Bible and they’re like, “Wait, this isn’t what Catholics said was in the Bible,” you know? There’s all these things the church is doing that, like, we’re explicitly told not to do.[00:16:39] And a lot of Muslims read this, and it’s just like, wait, was Muhammad, like, a really bad guy? I mean, there’s... We’ll get into it, because I actually wanted to go through and have an AI sort of do an analysis on what ends up pushing people away. Because, you know, he had, this is, like, in the Quran, sm- sex slaves, right?[00:16:59] Like, th- that’s a thing that he did. Actually, one of them killed him after he killed her, th- this Jewish lady’s kids and, and husband. And then she poisoned him. All[00:17:09] Simone Collins: right. Really?[00:17:11] Malcolm Collins: Good for her, right? Yeah. And like, a lot of people are like “How dare, what a terrible thing. Such a perfect person.”[00:17:16] It’s like, no, that’s like a good thing to do for your people and your family.[00:17:20] Simone Collins: Oh, no, 100%, if, if someone were to do that, I, yeah, I mean, poison is what they would get if they were lucky.[00:17:26] Malcolm Collins: What’s also really fascinating-[00:17:28] Simone Collins: She’s rich, but she’d get away with it. She’d do worse if she could ...[00:17:30] Malcolm Collins: if you talk about this from a techno Puritan perspective, ‘cause if we think, oh, the, the Quranic text was to any extent inspired by some sort of real...[00:17:37] I, I’m, I’m doubting this more and more as time goes on. Like, the, the more I read about what they did historically and how they acted historically and in modern times,[00:17:46] Simone Collins: I’m increasingly- The more you realize that by biblical standards, they don’t have souls. Wait, sorry. The Bible doesn’t say there’s anything about souls, but that’s what I mean.[00:17:52] Like, they weren’t human. They were pre-Adamite animal things. Yeah.[00:17:56] Speaker 5: Are they pre-Adamites? Yeah ... with[00:17:57] Simone Collins: our[00:17:57] Speaker 5: new term. No, the-[00:17:59] Malcolm Collins: Obviously, I can’t know what’s in another person’s heart or in another person’s brain or if they feel regret when they use people as sex slaves or whatever. But what I can say is that within multiple populations, I think there are pre-Adamites in the Christian population, I think there are pre-Adamites in the Jewish population.[00:18:16] It’s just they seem to appear within the Muslim population at higher rates within our existing society. This could be a nature of Muslim culture as it exists right now in sort of a personal dark age, or it could be because in many ways Muhammad acted this way a nature of it more broadly.[00:18:37] Speaker 10: Welcome to Muslim sensitivity training.[00:18:41] Let’s all look at why Muslims are upset. First of all, in the Muslim religion you can’t... Anybody? Jack off. Okay, jacking it is strictly forbidden in the Muslim religion.[00:18:54] And what do we know about the places Muslims live? They live in? Good, sand. Now, put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim. It’s Friday night, but you can’t have sex and you can’t jack off. There’s sand in your eyes and probably in the crack of your ass, and then some cartoon comes along from a country where people are getting laid and mocks your prophet.[00:19:16] Well, you know what? I’d be pretty pissed off, too[00:19:19] Malcolm Collins: The, the, the question , is if it was partially inspired by God, part of the problem is, is Muhammad himself wrote that, “If I’m lying, may God rip out my aorta,” and his last words was, “It feels like somebody’s ripping out my aorta Wait, really?[00:19:38] Yeah, they were, they were... Like, it’s a, it’s a weird phrasing that was used, right? Like, it’s, it’s, it’s very, like, book-endy. And when I saw that, I was like if I’m supposed to assume that God came in to inspire this text, then what is he saying about Muhammad through this, right? Like, it, I, I, I think, but they might not be his actual last words.[00:19:59] They’re, like, one [00:20:00] of his last words or something like this.[00:20:01] Simone Collins: Look, if he said that and it was anywhere close to the end, I’m taking it.[00:20:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Oh, another fun thing in the Quran is there is one part where Muhammad trades two Black slaves for one white slave.[00:20:14] Simone Collins: Great. Great, yeah, and there’s just all these people who are like, “Look, the, the proper, the proper religion for me-[00:20:22] Malcolm Collins: Yeah[00:20:23] is, is Islam.” Now,[00:20:23] Simone Collins: th- th- one,[00:20:24] Malcolm Collins: this shows that Muhammad owned Black slaves.[00:20:27] Simone Collins: Great. Great, great, great, great, great, great.[00:20:29] Malcolm Collins: Which I think is so, I mean-[00:20:30] Simone Collins: Look, it, look, I mean, he does seem to have been equal opportunity in slave ownership, to be fair. I mean,[00:20:36] Malcolm Collins: assuming you’re- Now, note here, by the way, how Muslim apologists try to get around this part.[00:20:39] Simone Collins: Okay,[00:20:39] Malcolm Collins: okay. Is they’re like, “Well, the, the white slave was willing to convert to Islam, and that’s why his life was worth more than the Black slaves who were not willing to convert to Islam or had not converted to Islam.”[00:20:52] Simone Collins: Ugh.[00:20:52] Malcolm Collins: Is, is, so as far as the way that they read it. Y- by the way, the, the, the, CNN has even done stuff on Libya’s open air slave market for Africans.[00:21:02] Simone Collins: How... Okay, if those exist, wouldn’t, like, there be a ton of tourists there? I had no idea there were open air slave markets. Thought it was- Yeah ... all, like, sort of behind the scenes trafficking.[00:21:13] Malcolm Collins: Well, I[00:21:14] Simone Collins: mean- There are open air slave markets? That, that’s-[00:21:16] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, open air slave markets. Still, like, I love these people who are like, they, “Your ancestors owned slaves.”[00:21:22] And I’m like, one, no they didn’t. And two how, why do[00:21:27] Simone Collins: you care- Okay, mine, mine probably[00:21:27] Malcolm Collins: did, though ... so much about this? To be fair. If you think you deserve so much recompense for this, why aren’t you doing anything about all the slaves right now? There’s more slaves right now than there have been at any point in human history.[00:21:36] Yeah,[00:21:36] Simone Collins: and well also, like, if you eat shrimp, shrimp you’re probably u- utilizing slave labor. You know, there’s so many products that we buy, you know, all of us on, on a regular basis probably a bunch of our garments are made by slaves. You’re using functional[00:21:46] Malcolm Collins: slave labor, slaves with extra steps.[00:21:48] Simone Collins: I’m talking about- No, no, I mean I’m also talking about actual slaves, like people who are being- Oh yeah, because they[00:21:52] Malcolm Collins: do capture them on boats and stuff, and stuff, from what I’ve heard, yeah.[00:21:54] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, it there’s a lot of migrant trafficking that ends up with people who are, like, left on boats or... Look, I’ve heard way worse things that I can’t talk about ‘cause I’ll start crying. But- It’s really hard to avoid slavery if you buy things that are not, like, locally produced and made. So-[00:22:10] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:22:11] I mean, I’ve definitely... I’ll, I’ll, I’ll go deeper before I go into, ‘cause I wanna go into specific lines, ‘cause I decided to have AI create sort of a, a, a spreadsheet of when people say they left w- Islam, Islam, why? Yeah. Like, what specifically made them leave? Hmm. To try to find the specific verses and stuff like that that people are having trouble with and that’s causing them to leave.[00:22:31] Speaker 3: Okay.[00:22:31] Malcolm Collins: But I, I really do think that the key strength that Christianity has had that has made it not as heavily affected by the internet is Christians really air their dirty laundry, like, pretty heavily. Most Christians are familiar with most of the major arguments made by atheists, right? Like, you, you go on the internet, you’re not gonna see new arguments, right?[00:22:55] You’re like, “Oh, I know that one, I know that one, I know that one, I know that one.” Mm-hmm. Yeah. The CES letter for a lot of Mormons genuinely introduced them to arguments or concepts that the church hadn’t made sure to introduce to them first in context.[00:23:11] Simone Collins: That’s the really big problem, yeah. It’s just been kind of sheltered away.[00:23:14] Malcolm Collins: Very much like the, the you know, the sexuality situation where I’m like, “You’ve got to show your kids this stuff first in context, have them understand it, have them understand what they’re seeing so that they don’t get it, you know, messed up for them in some, some other way.” Yeah. I, I, I think that Christianity has done d- almost to its detri- like actually to its detriment, gone so hard negative on itself that, like, that just wasn’t a problem for it, right?[00:23:45] Whereas y- you can see online I’ve seen videos of this, of Islamic you know, figures like a, a, the, I f- I forget what they’re called. Like, a, higher than a priest preacher- Modernists? Yeah, yeah. [00:24:00] Saying that it is sinful to listen to a debate about whether Islam is true.[00:24:04] Speaker 6: A rule of thumb, it is totally prohibited to watch debates or to engage in debates.[00:24:11] Engaging in debates might, huh, might be acceptable if you had proper knowledge.[00:24:18] Malcolm Collins: Which shows that, like- Oh, that’s- They don’t want you- That, no,[00:24:20] Simone Collins: that i- no ... that’s gonna make you- You don’t get to do that. That, that makes you look so bad. Don’t say that. Like, even if... No. Then, that’s, come on. That, you’re, it’s so, it’s so tempting to listen to debates then.[00:24:34] Unless it’s just to pray for them. Well, I mean, I don’t,[00:24:35] Malcolm Collins: I mean, it, it, if you’re like, “Well, my soul could be at stake,” and blah, blah. The point here being is a lot of Muslims were genuinely unaware of the arguments against it or how brutal the Quran is because they were reading translated versions of it.[00:24:51] Yeah. Like for example in, in, in the Quran it says that when you go to heaven, you get a white face, and when you go to hell, you get a black face.[00:25:00] Simone Collins: Are you serious? Oh, that’s so much worse than white and delightsome. That’s-[00:25:04] Malcolm Collins: Right?[00:25:05] Simone Collins: That’s horrible.[00:25:05] Malcolm Collins: But- My[00:25:06] Simone Collins: God ...[00:25:07] Malcolm Collins: the, the,[00:25:08] Speaker 3: Oh, guys[00:25:11] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I know it’s, it’s really bad.[00:25:13] Speaker 3: It’s[00:25:13] Malcolm Collins: really bad. It’s really bad. But the way that they translate that, if they’re like, “Well, it’s a metaphor. Like white means good and happy, hippy, and black means sad and bad.”[00:25:23] Speaker 3: Stop digging the hole. Don’t dig. Ah, oh, no, no, no, no, no,[00:25:28] Malcolm Collins: no, no, no. I’m[00:25:29] Speaker 3: like,[00:25:30] Malcolm Collins: get it in its original context when they had lots of Black slaves and, you know, Muhammad personally owned Black people.[00:25:38] Mm-hmm. That’s the other thing where they’re like, you get all these like Muslim converts in the United States w- all these like Black groups and they’re like, “You have a Black president or whatev- l- look, your presidents or founding presidents or Founding Fathers owned slaves.” And I was like, “Yeah, but what about like the founder of your religion?”[00:25:56] Simone Collins: Yeah, I, I actually, I didn’t know until just today that Muhammad had Black slaves. I also did not know that he had slaves.[00:26:03] Malcolm Collins: But also- Now[00:26:04] Simone Collins: that I think about him ...[00:26:04] Malcolm Collins: keep in mind that, well, I mean, it, it creates a problem if you thought that you were being like pro-African or something by joining, right?[00:26:12] Simone Collins: Yes.[00:26:14] Yes, it does. It does.[00:26:15] Malcolm Collins: All right, no, so before I get to the quotes, what I wanted to go over is my thoughts right now on Islam. And I’m not digging that deep into Islam right now because I don’t want to push something out. You know, when I started the Techno-Puritan project I was like, “Yeah, you can try to be like a Muslim version of a techno-puritan, but if you are, you need to go and find things that affirm- reality in your text, right?[00:26:39] Like, that’s the techno puritan project, right? Mm-hmm. If it is actually from God, it will occur with reality, and one of the problems that you’re gonna have is you can say, “Well, that was just the time. Like, that was just the way people lived back when Muhammad was alive,” and it’s like, yeah, except Jesus was way before Muhammad and didn’t have any child brides or slaves, right?[00:27:03] Like, how... What do you mean just the time, right? Mm-hmm. Then we should apply the same things to Jesus. But let’s go through the most quoted verses for why people leave so we can think about how these have problems in the modern context. So Quran 4:34, the most frequently mentioned single verse, it describes men as protectors and maintainers of women and outlines steps for dealing with a wife’s, not rebellion or disobedience, ending with, “Strike them or beat them lightly.”[00:27:31] Various translations of ˈwar, the word. Many leavers describe this as incompatible with modern ethics or equality. Now-[00:27:40] Simone Collins: Not Andrew Tates. Look, he was the perfect match[00:27:43] Malcolm Collins: for Islam. For[00:27:44] Simone Collins: Islam. Yeah, he really was. He was just, like, born for Islam.[00:27:46] Malcolm Collins: She’s gonna do an episode on what a, a dirtbag he is- Yeah ... in the near future.[00:27:50] She’s outlined it. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, I guess living a Muslim life, he beats them heavily though like ripping out their-[00:27:56] Simone Collins: No, don’t, don’t, no spoilers. And he doesn’t. [00:28:00] He doesn’t. You’ll see.[00:28:02] Malcolm Collins: In Quran 4:11, inheritance rules, a male receives the share of two females in inheritance. Quran 2:282, in financial contracts, two women are required in the place of one male witness so that if-[00:28:17] one of the women heirs, the other can remind her. In Quran 4:3, permission for a man to marry up to four wives with conditions about justice, and Hadith on Aisha’s age- parallel reports that she was married at six or seven, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine. And these points push a lot of feminist types out, and it appears that the feminist arguments are the most compelling to people.[00:28:46] Now, I think a portion of our audience would even be, like, based, right? Like, except for the child grape stuff, grape stuff. But, like, the other stuff, you know, yeah, you know, like Sean Connery being like, “Sometimes you need to beat a woman when she’s acting up.” It-[00:29:01] Simone Collins: Sometimes. Sometimes[00:29:03] Malcolm Collins: Sometimes.[00:29:04] Speaker 7: Okay. You did an interview in which you said-[00:29:07] Simone Collins: Mm[00:29:07] Speaker 7: it’s not the worst thing to slap a woman, thing to slap a woman now and then. As I remember, you said you don’t do it with a clenched fist. It’s better to do it with an open hand.[00:29:14] Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.[00:29:15] Speaker 7: Yeah. Remember that?[00:29:16] Speaker 8: Yeah.[00:29:16] Speaker 7: Yeah.[00:29:17] Speaker 8: And I- I[00:29:18] Speaker 7: remember love that ...[00:29:18] Speaker 8: haven’t changed my opinion.[00:29:20] Speaker 7: You haven’t?[00:29:20] Speaker 8: No, not at all. You[00:29:22] Speaker 7: think it’s good to slap a woman?[00:29:23] Speaker 8: No, I don’t think it’s good. I think- You don’t think it’s bad, though ... it must, I don’t think it’s that bad. I think that it depends entirely on the circumstances and if it merits it. Yeah.[00:29:32] Speaker 7: What would merit it?[00:29:33] Speaker 8: Well, if you have tried everything else, and women are pretty good at this. They, they can’t leave it alone.[00:29:41] Yeah? They do- they wanna have the w- the, the last word, and you give them the la- last word, but they’re not happy with the last word. They wanna say it again and, and get into a really provocative situation. Then-[00:29:58] I think it’s absolutely right[00:30:00] Speaker 7: To give her a good slap?[00:30:01] Speaker 8: Yeah, absolutely.[00:30:03] Speaker 7: What if she gives you a good slap back?[00:30:06] Speaker 8: Well, then you get into another area. I mean, then maybe she’s going to like it, and then it becomes something else. I don’t know. But no, no, I... Seriously, I think that it’s the last resort.[00:30:15] He’s not gonna do it because he wants to do it, huh?[00:30:20] Speaker 7: Wait till people see this interview. Are you gonna get mail?[00:30:24] Speaker 8: Might get some female.[00:30:25] Malcolm Collins: But the point we’re making here is that the stuff that’s causing people to leave Islam is standard urban monoculture stuff that like the right in the US has dealt with for the past 20 years at this point and so normalized to, and we’re sort of on the other side of that hill.[00:30:42] And that’s what makes it so fascinating to me. It’s not the, wait, our[00:30:47] Simone Collins: prophet had sex slaves? Like that’s probably bad, right? It’s the, oh, lightly beat a woman when she’s acting a certain way.[00:30:57] Malcolm Collins: Or like it does maybe make sense to receive twice a female’s inheritance if their husband is also receiving twice the inheritance, right?[00:31:05] And the family line is going through the male, that would make sense. But what we’re seeing is that ideas about equality are more compelling to people in parts of the Muslim world because they’ve been as infiltrated by the urban monoculture as we have than ideas about Islam itself. And that’s one way that the urban monoculture is ripping people out of Islam.[00:31:30] And this is here, note where it gets interesting because like we have Muslim followers, right? You know, and they have gone back to more traditional forms of Islam or trying to get in touch with their belief system. And so I have to, you know, sort of go through like, okay, what do we think of this? The next one, moral and ethical reasons came up with another one that a lot of people leave for.[00:31:55] Quran 9.5, the sword verse, kill the polytheists [00:32:00] wherever you find them, capture them and besiege them and lie in wait on them on every way, often cited as authorizing offensive violence once a sacred month passes. Now note here, we point out that, yeah, I mean, as a Christian, you’re kind of supposed to do this too, right?[00:32:18] But the idea of when you say that about a Christian, a lot of people are like, yeah, I’m aware of like the Crusades. I’m aware of like Christian’s history. But when you’re a religion that sells yourself at the religion of peace, and then somebody is like, well, what about this other thing? It creates this cognitive dissonance, which isn’t the same issue with Christianity, right?[00:32:39] Same with Judaism as well. Judaism has a lot of, you know, kill the cities and everything like that. We’ve gone over it, the episode when the Bible tells you to kill babies. Quran 9.29, fight those who do not believe among us, people of the book until they pay jizahs willingly while they are humbled. This is like an additional tax.[00:33:00] And in terms of sexual slavery, Quran 4.24, 23.5 through 6, 33.50, 70.29 to 30.[00:33:12] Simone Collins: Oh,[00:33:12] Malcolm Collins: come on. And it references those who your right hand possesses. And a lot of people take this to mean that in- Well, that,[00:33:21] Simone Collins: well, that’s the non-poopy hand, ‘cause you use your left hand to-[00:33:25] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. In the Quran, that it means that you are allowed to, like, grape non-Muslims, which is just not true.[00:33:33] That is not part of Sharia law. Th- you’re, you’re allowed to rape your slaves, okay? Now, if an Islamic court applied that meaning to everyone in a territory that Muslims had immigrated to, that would be saying-[00:33:46] Simone Collins: No, they don’t. No, no, no, no, no. I, I’ve looked this up multiple times because people are coming at us on, on X about this, and no, it is very clear that while this could be extended to, like, prisoners of war, it is not, like, people in a country you’ve immigrated to.[00:34:03] It, it just plain isn’t, and all the people who keep on going, “No, it’s wrong,” are just flat out- And[00:34:12] Malcolm Collins: if they did do that, if they did say, “Oh, oh, it applies to people in another country,” they are declaring themselves enemy combatants in that country by Sharia law, right?[00:34:23] Simone Collins: Like- Right. Well, and then they should be treated accordingly.[00:34:26] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. That would, it would enormously empower the right for a Sharia court to rule that.[00:34:33] Simone Collins: Yeah, by all means. Let, let the-[00:34:35] Malcolm Collins: By all means ... let[00:34:36] Simone Collins: their shepherds tend to that flock, and let them tend very[00:34:39] Malcolm Collins: directly. Yeah, they say we’re enemy combatants, and then we say then we need to treat all the people of your community as enemy combatants, right?[00:34:46] Like, that’s just as it is. And then the apostasy punishment really gets people. Key reports Sahih al-Bukhari 4:52-26 and 9:84-57, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” And this is talking about apostasies as one of the three cases in which a Muslim’s blood can be shed. So, w- by the way, they don’t really follow that.[00:35:11] They, they kill Muslims all the time. I guess they just argue that they’re all apostates and they don’t believe exactly the version.[00:35:17] Simone Collins: No, there’s other crimes punishable by death.[00:35:20] Malcolm Collins: No, there’s three. Aren’t[00:35:22] Simone Collins: there three? Wait, what are the three then?[00:35:25] Malcolm Collins: What are the three reasons a Muslim can shed another Muslim’s blood?[00:35:29] Let’s look that up.[00:35:30] Simone Collins: Do they do the thing where they just like get a non-Muslim to shed a Muslim’s blood if they did something punishable by capital punishment, or what?[00:35:40] Malcolm Collins: Okay, let’s see.[00:35:41] Simone Collins: Hmm.[00:35:42] Malcolm Collins: From the Hadiths, okay? Okay. “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah, and that I am his apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: in retaliation for murder, a married person who commits an illegal sexual intercourse...”[00:35:58] This is like, if you [00:36:00] grape somebody, this would be one of those cases. Even a foreigner, if you’re a married Muslim man, that’s, that’s... “And the one who reverts from Islam,” an apostate.[00:36:08] Simone Collins: Oh, okay. So murder, improper sex, apostasy. Okay. Simple. Okay. Wow, there actually is a lot of, I guess when they the murder of people who are gay, that’s just improper sex then.[00:36:20] Mm-hmm. Or the assumption thereof. What if you’re celibate gay?[00:36:24] Malcolm Collins: I don’t think that’s wrong in Islam.[00:36:26] Simone Collins: Okay. Hmm.[00:36:29] Malcolm Collins: In Quran 21:06 and 16:101, there are verses that explicitly, this is on internal inconsistencies, explicitly discuss God substituting or causing a verse to be forgotten and replaced with a better similar one.[00:36:44] Leavers often point to this as evidence the text is not externally fixed or perfect. Yeah, that’s often interesting as well, that they’re like, “The Quran is an incredibly fixed and, like, not one word has changed,” when the Quran of every religious tradition I’m aware of has the most later updates. Like, the majority of the Quran...[00:37:05] I don’t know if that’s the majority, but huge chunks of it were written in, in like important Islamic texts that are considered, like, nearly as important as the central Quran were written hugely after Muhammad’s life, which is one of the reasons why the events of his life are so gray. Like, what was her actual age?[00:37:20] Well, we have to rely on somebody who was writing, you know, 100, 200 years later and they might have gotten this wrong or this wrong, et cetera. They often contrast between early tolerance and later commands. Quran 2256, “There is no compulsion in religion,” versus the later Medina verses 9:5 to 9:29.[00:37:40] Classical scholarship treats many earlier peaceful verses as aggravated by the later ones. Critics see this as an internal contradiction or progressive hardening. Which is interesting because you’ve seen this within techno-puritanism as well. If you look at the early techno-puritan tracts, it’s like a way more permissive religious system.[00:37:59] And as the system has gone on and as we believe it more seriously ourselves, we are more comfortable being like, “No, this is true. No, this is false. This is bad. Don’t do this.” Right? And then free will and predestination issues people have issues with, specifically 18:29 alongside emphasizing God’s absolute control.[00:38:20] It’s 76:30 or 6:125. 6:125. Now, obviously we wouldn’t have a problem with that, but apparently that’s pushing people out. And I think it’s, it’s not engaging with these issues, right? Like, we constantly... The first thing a techno-puritan does is engage with a topic on free will. Right. You know, like, or, you know, i- is it moral to do, like, really aggressive things to groups that are targeting you?[00:38:44] And it’s like, yes, absolutely, right? Yeah. Like, and no, no matter how far you have to go. Whereas within Islam a lot of people, I guess, are just unaware of this, and they find this stuff out and they move away. And then apparently some people leave as well for what they see as scientific or historical claims.[00:38:59] Hmm ... embryology passages, Quran 23:12 and 14 and 22:5. The stages of creation from a drop to a clot, et cetera. Critics argue that these reflect older Greek ideas that conflict with modern embryology. Oh,[00:39:14] Simone Collins: yeah.[00:39:14] Malcolm Collins: Defenders argue they are miraculously accurate. If I’m gonna be completely transparent here, I don’t see this one as particularly bad.[00:39:21] That doesn’t seem that wrong from the science, if they didn’t have other words for that at the time I mean, what’s he gonna say, an embryo? They, they don’t have the word embryo, or blastocyst, or clump of cells. Okay cosmology examples sometimes raised, Quran 1886, a description of the sun setting in a muddy spring of this, in the story of Dhul-Qarnayn, and the verses about the sun, the moon, and the orbits.[00:39:52] This is 36, 38,40. And then broader questions about the compilation of history of the Quran and the [00:40:00] reliability of dating Hadith collections are common.[00:40:02] Speaker 3: Hmm.[00:40:04] Malcolm Collins: I find this really, really, really fascinating, and then I had it rank them in order of what causes people to leave. Number one is the status of women in Islam which is, again, you see even, like, Western women converting to Islam because they’re like, “I don’t like how whatever misogynistic Western society is,” and people are like, “You should, like, just Google what Muslims believe.”[00:40:28] Because they, they... I mean, obviously the famous Caleb Hamer, where the woman was like, “Well, I became a Muslim because it’s the, it’s the nicest religion to[00:40:35] Speaker 9: w- I always questioned the Bible, and so, like, I don’t- But you[00:40:38] Speaker 5: don’t question the Quran?[00:40:39] Speaker 9: Of course. I[00:40:40] Speaker 5: think question everything. Well, I don’t think you’re allowed to question the Quran, especially as a woman.[00:40:43] Speaker 9: No. Definitely not. I[00:40:45] Speaker 5: mean, come on. No,[00:40:45] Speaker 9: no. Let’s be honest. It’s, it’s not that. It’s not that. No. Islam is probably the most, like, feminist morals religion there is. Like, w- very much protective of[00:40:55] Speaker 5: women and not- Yes, it is certainly Middle Eastern countries that are most well-known for their feminism and freedom for women.[00:41:05] Speaker 9: It is. It, it-[00:41:06] Speaker 5: The Middle East.[00:41:07] Speaker 9: If they’re practicing Islam, yes.[00:41:10] Speaker 5: So you’re saying they’re all practicing it incorrectly everywhere, including Mecca?[00:41:15] Speaker 3: I mean, if they’re oppressing people, of course, yeah. Yeah.[00:41:18] Speaker 5: Then they’re doing it correctly?[00:41:19] Speaker 3: Maybe, maybe. I don’t know. I don’t live[00:41:21] Malcolm Collins: there. No. Women.[00:41:21] Speaker 3: Oh,[00:41:22] Malcolm Collins: I[00:41:22] Speaker 3: didn’t see[00:41:22] Simone Collins: that.[00:41:23] Really?[00:41:24] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and it’s just a lot of people, it’s, it’s selling itself as something that it’s just patently not. Mm-hmm. When Andrew Tate goes out there and sells Islam, he’s doing a better job because the version of Islam that Andrew Tate is selling, nobody’s gonna go look at that later and be like, “This isn’t what I was sold.”[00:41:40] They’re like, “Yeah, yeah, it’s, this is what I was sold,” you know? Yeah.[00:41:43] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah,[00:41:43] Malcolm Collins: yeah. But the leftist, it’s, which is genuinely sold to people, it ends up leading to these deconversions.[00:41:51] Simone Collins: Yeah, or just flagrantly dangerous actions. You’re not at all aware of this, but half of the internet is losing their minds over a young woman who, mm, I think met a husband over TikTok and then moved to Afghanistan to live with him.[00:42:09] And everyone’s like, “No, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do that.” But she went, so...[00:42:16] Malcolm Collins: Well, there’s the famous case of the girls who, like, went to do that, to, like, join ISIS and then were desperate to get back into the country afterwards.[00:42:21] Simone Collins: To join ISIS.[00:42:23] Malcolm Collins: ISIS, yes, and then they were used as sex slaves.[00:42:26] Simone Collins: Not... Yeah.[00:42:27] Malcolm Collins: And they then became de- desperate to get back to Britain and had trouble[00:42:30] Simone Collins: doing it.[00:42:30] It’s one of the reasons why everyone’s going, “No, no, no, no, no,” to this young lady. But anyway, we’ll see how it goes. Everyone’s waiting. Everyone’s waiting to see how it goes for her. Lots of speculation, but this is a, a common and recurring theme it would seem.[00:42:45] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and then the, the next is contradictions between Sharia law and modern human rights.[00:42:48] It really is the urban monoculture that’s doing this to them. It’s, it’s issues that, like, we just wouldn’t have.[00:42:54] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.[00:42:54] Malcolm Collins: Which is really fascinating to me. What are your thoughts, Simone?[00:42:59] Simone Collins: I find this comforting because the behavior that I see condoned by this religion, I think is subhuman. Like-[00:43:12] Speaker 3: Yeah[00:43:12] Simone Collins: I think, I think that it, the Old Testament is clear that to be human is to have a clear moral judgment and ability to judge. I think that there’s this, this combination, combination of both a complete lack of human dignity at least for certain people. Basically, like, a broad swaths of people, slaves, women, et cetera, apo- a- apostates, non-Islamic people.[00:43:40] Yeah. Right? It’s like, “Well, we’re not going to treat them like humans at all.” Or, or, you know, “We’re, we’re not gonna consider their, their rights or comforts as being important.” That being one element of it, as, as I see, I see as being less... Worse, worse than not human, because, I mean, an, an animal at least isn’t capable of really [00:44:00] advanced cruelty, like killing people through castration.[00:44:02] And then there’s the second part of it, where I feel like the way that Sharia law is set up and the way that a lot of implementation of Islamic law works, works on the assumption that you are dealing with people, we’ll say pre-Adamite people, who are incapable of their own moral judgments. That-[00:44:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah[00:44:21] Simone Collins: you just follow the laws. You, you, you live in a police state, and- Or you[00:44:24] Malcolm Collins: be beheaded, or we cut off your hands, or you-[00:44:26] Simone Collins: Yeah. Like- Yeah ... yeah. We’re, we’re not gonna assume that you’re capable of making these judgments, so we’re going to punish you extremely violently and extremely cruelly, because we know you- you’re not capable of that.[00:44:39] And, and that, that to me signals, oh, this is, this is one of those religions that in the Old Testament, God would’ve been really mad about. And yeah, God was really clear about really hating other, other people’s gods and other, other people’s religions.[00:44:57] Malcolm Collins: Well, so the question is, is, are they worshiping the same God?[00:45:00] I still don’t have a- I don’t know ... clear thesis, clear thesis. I don’t know. Early when we wrote the techno-Pythagorean tracts, we said, yes, that we think they are.[00:45:07] Simone Collins: Well, you said that because you said that Muhammad held the Old Testament to be, and, and the New Testament to be, like, I don’t know, correct, right?[00:45:15] Or, or prophecies, but that he was the final prophet. Wasn’t that what you said?[00:45:21] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I,[00:45:21] Simone Collins: I, I really, I[00:45:21] Malcolm Collins: thought you, you thought Muhammad- Well, no, he, he didn’t say he was the pri- final prophet. He said, that, that’s a mistranslation or, like, a common m- he said he was the seal of the prophets, e.g.- Oh ... sort of like the prophets proved him, not that he was definitely the final prophet.[00:45:34] That is not actually in his honor. Okay,[00:45:36] Simone Collins: so he’s, he’s the CliffsNotes of, of the prophets. He’s the AI summary of the prophets.[00:45:40] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I mean, I thought the part of, like, the, if, if we’re getting iterative revelations, the interesting thing that Muhammad added is the idea that each revelation is only for one people.[00:45:53] Because, you know, he said that, that this is for- That’s smart. Yeah ... the people who speak Arabic, and that no one e- else who’s not of the people who speak Arabic should be a Muslim, basically.[00:46:01] Simone Collins: Yeah, but I mean, like, the techno-puritan interpretation of that is that, okay, well, then the basilisk is being used by God to separate out and, and silo a group of people that it considers to be distinctly not chosen, because they are not capable of even being-[00:46:16] Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah.[00:46:17] And, and I mean, my take on this as well is you can belie- believe a religion is divinely inspired while still thinking the founder is a butthead.[00:46:29] Simone Collins: Well, also a religion can be divin- divi- divinely inspired in the same way that Pharaoh’s heart was hardened in a way that really hurt his people, because his people weren’t chosen.[00:46:38] Malcolm Collins: Right. Well, what I mean is, like, King David was a complete jackhole. Just absolute jackhole. Yeah.[00:46:45] Sampson[00:46:46] Malcolm Collins: Was also a jackhole. You could say, “Oh, they redeemed themselves in the end.” It’s like, I don’t... I, I mean, maybe in the eyes of God, not all the people they, they killed.[00:46:57] Simone Collins: Yeah.[00:46:57] There’s like a word ...[00:46:58] Malcolm Collins: the, the innocent, yeah. W- like, what are you talking about, right? Like, and, and so, like, w- I think it’s, it’s perfectly okay to be like, “I am a Mormon. I think Joseph Smith was a jackhole. But I still believe my religion,” right? Like, “I still think it’s divinely inspired,” or something like that.[00:47:15] Which is where I stand on that. I still stand that he might be better than he’s put out in a lot of popular narratives, but the majority of information I see does not paint him in a positive light. He, he d- d- he seems Yeah. And it’s the same as Muhammad. Like, whatever I believe about the wider Islamic project, or is there a version of Islam that could be good, I, I think there is.[00:47:42] Like, we definitely see people who practice a version of Islam that is, you know, productive and commensurate with- Absolutely ... civilized society.[00:47:50] Simone Collins: Yeah. And there are elements of Islam that are absolutely beautiful and elevating and purifying,[00:47:57] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I, I like that they’re at least [00:48:00] strictly anti-idolatry.[00:48:01] I don’t like that they admit to killing-[00:48:02] Simone Collins: I like that it’s a hard religion, too. There’s, there’s heavy fasting. There’s a lot of discipline.[00:48:07] Malcolm Collins: Yeah.[00:48:07] Simone Collins: It, it’s just that I, I, I’m conflicted by-[00:48:12] Malcolm Collins: The way that they act when at scale. Like, I haven’t seen a lot of ... It, it, it’s, it’s, it’s during times of hardship, like in incredible, you know, cruelty, what we see in, in, in many of these instances, and during times of lavishness- Well, here’s, here’s the problem[00:48:28] they basically create a slave society.[00:48:29] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. So normally what you see is, And we, we talked about this in, in the episode we did on me being angry about Native Americans. But Any, any group without civilization is going to be worse than animals. They’re going to be both smart and incredibly cruel and, and horrible.[00:48:47] And yet w- normally when you get civilization, that cruelty goes away, right? And the fact that with Islam somehow you can h- reach the level of civilization and they’re like, “Oh, let’s keep the cruelty. Let’s, let’s keep it. Let’s not drop it.” Like that, I,[00:49:01] Malcolm Collins: I- Yeah, like let’s keep the ins-[00:49:02] Simone Collins: yeah ... like the whole point, the whole point was that the, the civilization al- allows you to rise above.[00:49:07] That you have the capability of unspeakable cruelty and you do not exercise it. That you show, you show mercy and dignity because you are better than a, a very smart animal. You, you are beyond- Well,[00:49:21] Malcolm Collins: well- ... because you, you transcend ... and it’s important to note here that one of the, the other problems that really hurts Islam is that you can be like, well, you know, I know friends who are Emiratis, I know friends who are Qataris, I know, you know, people from these countries that are you know, very, they, they seem to be past all of this.[00:49:38] And yet when you look at why do we have a lot of these giant genocides going on in Africa, these conflicts going on in Africa, these terrorist groups that are operating across these regions, a lot of them are just like UAE-backed, the, the, the things for their little politicking. I mean, they might not personally be going out and graping people, but they’re facilitating it at scale because then it’s irrelevant that it happens to them.[00:50:06] You know? It’s irrele- it’s, it’s just part of the cycle for them, right? That’s the way that they do politics. They don’t do... You know, in, in America we bomb a bridge and people freak out. Yeah. And, and they’re like causing mass genocides in the UAE right now, right?[00:50:20] Speaker 3: Mm.[00:50:21] Malcolm Collins: And this is like a demonstrably true thing, right?[00:50:23] Like, it, it, they’re, they’re not particularly shy about it. They’re like, “These are our guys. We’re paying them,” you know? And then the other group, you know, the, the other group of, of, of civilized acting like in Saudi Arabia or whatever, they’re on the other side and they’re instigating the other group.[00:50:39] And if you are allowing for this to happen or, or the source of it happening in terms of like, it shows that even when everything’s cleaned up, even when everything is made to look nice, there’s a portion, and a meaningful enough portion to control world politics or influence world political events, that still act with this incredible amount of dehumanization of other, other people.[00:51:05] Simone Collins: Yeah. I gotta go get the kids. Grilled cheese, queso, or gyoza lasagna tonight.[00:51:12] Malcolm Collins: I haven’t had a gyoza lasagna in a while.[00:51:14] Simone Collins: Thank goodness. But we got- I’ve been waiting for you to say yes to that. It’s time to- Oh, the what? Oh,[00:51:18] Octavian Collins: the- Hang on. It’s time to go downstairs. The kids show home early again.[00:51:22] Simone Collins: They’re not home early, actually.[00:51:23] I like- Can I have[00:51:24] Malcolm Collins: some?[00:51:26] Octavian Collins: Yes. I’ll give you[00:51:26] Malcolm Collins: a handful. No, I don’t need a handful. I just want a little bit.[00:51:29] Simone Collins: No, Oc- Octavian, you need to eat a real dinner[00:51:35] Octavian Collins: But I’m hungry, very[00:51:36] Simone Collins: hungry. Right, and I’m gonna go make you dinner. That’s ‘cause it’s dinner time. You’re supposed to be hungry. This is good, but you do not get to eat junk food.[00:51:43] Take that... Malcolm, take that from him. Malcolm.[00:51:47] Malcolm Collins: Octavian, come here. Come here. The fans wanna see you.[00:51:50] Octavian Collins: Yeah, okay.[00:51:52] Malcolm Collins: Okay. So you were down playing at the creek?[00:51:54] Octavian Collins: Yeah.[00:51:55] Simone Collins: What happened to your face?[00:51:56] Octavian Collins: No. Actually, no.[00:51:59] Malcolm Collins: Oh, where [00:52:00] were you?[00:52:01] Octavian Collins: I didn’t even get to go to the creek.[00:52:04] Malcolm Collins: Oh, you didn’t get to go to the creek? What were you doing?[00:52:07] Octavian Collins: I-[00:52:07] Malcolm Collins: How many lessons[00:52:08] Octavian Collins: did you do? It was actually a boring day. I was tired. I, I mostly only did zero, but I’m trying to work on one.[00:52:16] Malcolm Collins: You did zero lessons?[00:52:18] Octavian Collins: Yeah, but[00:52:19] Simone Collins: I’m trying to work on one right now. ‘Cause someone decided to play poopy songs all last night, and have a rager, and play zombie games, and then he’s tired all day, and though I go down and I try to answer every little question help- helping him.[00:52:31] No, no, no. Someone just wants to... Octavian, sir. Okay. Sir.[00:52:39] Octavian Collins: Yes?[00:52:40] Simone Collins: You’re gonna leave those chips up with Daddy, okay? ‘Cause you have to eat a real dinner, all right? Malcolm- Okay, but I’m so hungry ... grilled cheese, queso- I want food now ... or I know, we’re gonna make food right now. Okay. Or gyoza lasagna.[00:52:50] Malcolm Collins: What are my options?[00:52:53] Simone Collins: Grilled cheese- Q- ... queso or gyoza lasagna.[00:52:55] Malcolm Collins: Queso.[00:52:57] Simone Collins: Okay. I love you.[00:53:00] Malcolm Collins: I love you. Have a good day. I[00:53:02] Octavian Collins: wanna[00:53:02] Malcolm Collins: go- Angel, Simone, what do you wanna say to the f- fans? Octavian, what do you wanna say to the fans?[00:53:05] Simone Collins: And where are the kids right now? Are they all in the yard?[00:53:07] Octavian Collins: No. T- they, they are actually coming up.[00:53:13] Simone Collins: Malcolm, can you help me shepherd them to the kitchen?[00:53:15] Malcolm Collins: I’ll help you shepherd them to the kitchen.[00:53:16] Simone Collins: Please. Thank you. Can you just... Yeah, please, and I’ll see you down there. Okay. Okay,[00:53:19] Malcolm Collins: okay, I’ll go. Ow.[00:53:21] Simone Collins: Octavian. Strange.[00:53:23] Malcolm Collins: It felt like somebody kicked my chair.[00:53:26] Simone Collins: What did they say? “It’s a ghosties,” as our children would say[00:53:30] ghosties. Ooh, they say. Ooh.[00:53:33] Malcolm Collins: I just don’t know what could have caused that. A[00:53:35] Simone Collins: ghost. A ghost[00:53:37] Malcolm Collins: of all[00:53:37] Simone Collins: the hornets we’ve been[00:53:38] Malcolm Collins: killing? Obviously.[00:53:39] Simone Collins: Look, do you know how many people have died in this house? I mean, at least- By[00:53:43] Malcolm Collins: the way, for people who don’t believe the hornet thing, look, dead hornets. Dead hornets.[00:53:49] There[00:53:49] Simone Collins: are more- Just dead hornets everywhere ... dead m- m- people. Or at least p- more people died in this house. Well, probably more hornets died in this house. There’s[00:53:56] Malcolm Collins: been hornets over the years too, Simone.[00:53:58] Simone Collins: That’s true, yeah. Okay. I didn’t think about that. Very true.[00:54:02] Malcolm Collins: You are an amazing woman, Simone. I am just so-[00:54:04] Simone Collins: Do you ever, like, lie in your bed sometimes and wonder, like, how many people died in, in that room?[00:54:10] Malcolm Collins: A lot more died in your room than mine.[00:54:12] Simone Collins: Is this, is this the dying room?[00:54:14] Malcolm Collins: Well, it seems like the master bedroom, which is where I would[00:54:17] Simone Collins: expect a dying person to go. Yeah. If you’re gonna go, you wanna go in the nice room.[00:54:20] Malcolm Collins: Or I guess they could have given the worst room to Grandma or whatever.[00:54:23] Simone Collins: Yeah. I I remember I, I had this, this hero of mine as a kid.[00:54:28] Her name was Beverly, but I called her Bevo. And she was telling me about her life growing up on a farm in, in, in the Midwest in, like, the early 1900s, and how, like, they had someone staying with them for a while, and they were fairly infirm. And they slept in her bed while they were visiting, and then they died in her bed.[00:54:46] And, like, after they died, it was just her bed again. And it’s just... I was like, “Wait, so you, like, slept in the bed that someone died in?” And she’s like, “Yeah. I mean...”[00:54:56] Malcolm Collins: What you gonna do?[00:54:57] Simone Collins: Yeah. Like, where else are you gonna sleep?[00:55:00] Malcolm Collins: America used to be awesome. We used to be a country.[00:55:03] Simone Collins: Yeah. Oh, she had such an unusual life, though.[00:55:05] Like, while she was growing up, her, her mother... And this is in like the early 1900s, was, like, off doing business in Japan and stuff. Like, stuff, like, very unusual. Yeah, fascinating. Such a cool person. All my heroes in life have been, like, women in their 60s. This might be why my, like ... I, I really am so excited to be 62 years old, if I live that long.[00:55:26] Speaker 2: So what are you doing? So you don’t want him to eat any animals in Minecraft. Is that right, Titan? Titan, Titan, the good- Whoa! Titan. Octavian, be careful. That had apples in it. Titan. Get down here and clean it up. Titan. You just made a big mess. Dad, Dad, put it at the edge. You left it at the edge, Octavian.[00:55:45] That’s your fault. Titan. Be careful with all these cords, okay? You don’t wanna pull one of the computers down, too. Titan, Titan, Titan, the good thing is there’s no ducks in Minecraft. Why is eating ducks bad? I eat ducks. Peking duck. How about ... kind of fat. [00:56:00] Come on, get down. You made a mess. What are you doing?[00:56:03] Speaker 4: Titan, the- Be careful not to fall on Indy ... Titan, no. Aw, Indy’s cleaning it up. Yeah, she’s trying to help you. Stop! Wow, Indy, that was so nice of you. Is this all of them? Mm-hmm. Hey, no Titan, no Titan. I think there’s one more right here. There’s maybe one more. Titan[00:56:20] Titan just- Well, let Titan- You’re done. Let Titan have a turn, okay? Fine. Why don’t you ch- teach her how? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe