Hello and welcome to the Gifted Life Podcast where we have conversations about organ tissue and ideonation and transplantation. You can always find us at thegiftedlife.org. I'm Ory Steel. I'm Sarah Blachmore.
I'm Kelly Rannell. Coming up today on The Gifted Life. So today we're going to be learning more about organ tissue donation as it relates to the American Muslim community and we're going to be learning from the Muslim Life Planning Institute and their experts. And we're going to talk about caregiver burnout and how to cope with it.
All that more you guys ready? Let's get to it. Here on the Gifted Life Podcast we learn on each and every episode today, no different guys. Kelly Rannell Lopez CEO is here in the hot seat.
Hey Kelly. Hello. Recently you were the AOCO president as the Association of Organ Procurement Organizations and you learned more about the Muslim Life Planning Institute and today you bring that topic here and we get to learn about that and more. Absolutely.
I'm very excited. I met Kareem through my efforts at AOCO. So thank you Kareem. It's been a great journey learning with you and learning about you.
So I would like for you to introduce our guests today if you don't mind and then if we could get into talking about how you started down the path of organ donation and transplantation education with the Muslim community. So we're inviting us on today. I'm happy to have in a company today a few people come a long way with us on this journey of making a Muslim community aware of the permissibility of organ donation and transplantation. We've invited Imam Achahari Abdul Malik, who was a prominent Imam in the local Washington, D.C.
metropolitan area and Imam Achahari is a background in genetics for many other areas where that stands out and as well as a large advocate of organ donation and transplantation. I've got a good friend and partner of my Muslim life planning institute, Samuel Chari, who's also a chief economic development officer for the Institute and for the Muslim life planning on networking. Our relationship goes back some 20 years and it's an interesting story about how we got into this conversation and how we got into developing the M.L.P.I. And last but not least, certainly not least, a friend, a colleague of my Colin Ross who's the vice president of international development of whatever site, which I think Ann Arbor, Michigan was fortunate enough to become acquainted with Colin through work in the South East Mission area with gift of life mission.
So I guess for me, this was a really important topic to bring to the table because educating our communities is the most important thing that we can do and that's something you guys have taken on and moved the needle with and I think that it's important for me to spread that education and that knowledge past D.C. and Detroit and into every other community across this country. And so I guess my first question is what is the perspective from the Muslim community about organ donation and transplantation? I guess that's where I come in.
You are the expert. Yes. Well, I'm something that let's see how, you know, what really matters if your electorate is not what you said but what people remember. And so perhaps we need to go back a little bit.
A number of years ago and Karim could help me. I was approached by Leslie, what is it? Kapanoni. I think it was in 2014.
Kapanoni, right. Working in the D.C. metropolitan area. And she came to, she had someone call me and they set up a meeting to come to the mosque.
This is a mosque in Northern Virginia that has about 3000 worshipers at the weekly congregational worship. And so I thought she was, you know, like many groups they come and they want to come and learn about, you know, what's going on in the mosque and so on. So I sat down and I was meeting with them. And they said, you know, tell us about the Muslim community.
So I said, okay, well, there are probably about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. Muslims make up about 1.5% of the population in the United States. 1.5 million something like that, I think is a reasonable number. And you know, they believe that Jesus and Moses and Abraham were all in the line of prophets ending with the Prophet Muhammad.
They take their guidance from the Quran and the example of the Prophet Muhammad. They pray five times a day. They fast during the month of Ramadan. They give charity from their wealth and their special kinds of charity.
And one of those is a gift that you can give that provides benefits to people after you're dead. And last, if you make the pilgrimage to Mecca once in your life, if you're able. So they're like, okay, you know, we took about half an hour to do that. And they said, what am I really here to learn about?
And about Muslims attitudes toward organ donation and translation. I was like, okay. So with that backdrop, now the real question is so how do people of the Islamic faith look at and say, okay, how do we know within our faith tradition, whether this is something we can do or not do? And so they look into the Quran as the revelation from God or Allah and they look into the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad.
Peace be upon him. If they're more clear answers, maybe these are things that happened then. Then they look to things that scholars wrote about in a more contemporary sense. And then out of that, they look for the opinions of those scholars in something in jurisprudence, they call it is a juridical ruling around the thing.
And so that's kind of where we joined in. And I said, well, it is my understanding. They found an article that I had written that organ donation and tissue transplantation is permissible under certain conditions. And those conditions of this one degree liberal, if you accept certain notions about when is the time of death.
And so we began working to say, well, how can we convey that message to the wider community because they said most of the time when they have individuals who go into a hospital room, they meet a family who's of the Islamic faith from a variety of cultural and linguistic backgrounds. And their general answer was, it's against my religion. And from that, we began having the identifying that there is a real need, not just for Muslims who engage, but also to teach them in the 21st century context, what does their religion say about this new practice? And there are many, many cultural barriers and many different cultural backgrounds.
I used to work at Howard University with MoTEP because African Americans have a certain not necessarily religious, but there's a folklore that creates the sense of saying, this is not something that we should do. We don't really trust the system. And there are many Muslims who have those same feelings about donation and transportation. But that is, I believe, the genesis of a lot of the outreach work that gave birth to Muslim life planning institute.
And I believe four years ago you were recognized for this work through Donate Life, America. Is that correct? And I'll tell you a joke. There was a man standing at a gate and they canceled his flight.
And he told a woman at the finger, that I booked me on another flight. You don't know who I am? So she may be announced. Does anybody recognize this man in front of us because he doesn't know who he is?
So I was recognized. But I think the real recognition goes to the work that Muslim life planning has done in building relationships all across the country around this work. Yeah. And it's clearly important work.
I'm a family advocate and I approach family coordination. And so I've worked with several families of the Muslim faith. And one thing I've heard with several of them is that their religion doesn't allow donation because they believe that the person should go as they've come so whole in a way. When you're in the group and you're out of the group, there are differences.
In other words, that person may come from Pakistan, right? And they understand their religious tradition, maybe the way I grew up with this appeal. So if all you know about your religion is what you learn in Sunday school, it really doesn't put you at the place of saying, well, you know, was there a religious conference about such and such in whatever year and the hierarchy of your clergy sat met? You don't know.
You don't know. You know the folklore of your faith, what you learn in Sunday school when you were paying attention. You know, so there are these folklore issues and you say, okay, where are they? They're actually drawn from a religious text.
So if you're a person like me, I know the text that they are drawn, they're all conclusion from which is it is impermissible to mutilate the bodies of your enemies. So the Prophet Muhammad made a statement in what we call hadith, the narrations of his actions or inactions or what have you, right? And they're written in a book and there are thousands of them. And one of them is how do you treat prisoners of war or casualties of war?
And one of them is that unlike other people, we as Muslims, if someone dies on a battlefield is not appropriate to mutilate them. So not a person says, aha. So if someone dies and we cut them open and take their organs out, their person is being mutilated like the person in the battlefield, then there are other myths that these are totally unfounded. But the myth that the person who's deceased feels pain if you cut them after they're deceased.
They're like, okay, that one totally, there's no, I can bring the evidence that says the person who's deceased from the scripture doesn't feel anything. You're not in that group. So what is helpful and what we've learned in Muslim life planning is the easiest thing is once you and your staff are oriented, that you can say, well, I spoke to a prominent imam and he was saying that there's an opinion from the Fick Council that says that the way we do it is okay. But I'm not an imam, but if you want to talk to the imam or something like that, we can connect you with the imam.
Now, just saying imam three times for that person now gives you credibility. Yeah, you know, that's interesting because, you know, we want to make sure that we meet all of our families where they're at and we like to, you know, not just respect their culture, but learn about their culture, know about their faith and to give them those faith leaders who can support them through their decision-making tools. So I know that the Muslim Life Planning Institute has a lot of resources on cultural competence and can you tell us more about those? I think we should segue to Karim.
But I'm a, you know, I'm a Stefan Covey advocate. You know, seven habits of highly affected people. One of them is seek first to understand and then to be understood. And so when I approach people, even they're Muslim and they're in a crisis, my first place is to understand what's going on with you, how are you doing, what's happening, right?
And then I may discover that their issue has nothing to do with the Fick opinion. It has to do with something else, right? Yeah. So I got to find out, like, where to come from, but not trying not to be the resource, but to say I have resources for you, right?
If you're open to them, goes a long way because even as an imam, people will challenge me. Well, imam, I never read that before. I'm like, and you're an imam, right? You know, I mean, it's okay, you know?
But having the ability to share with people resources that here to here before didn't exist for people who live in the Western Hemisphere. And that is the work that Kareem and Theresa have been helping us put together. All right. Kareem, you know, we do want to learn more about the Muslim Life Planning Institute.
And if you can tell us the difference between that and the Muslim Life Planning Network, that's where we went to prepare ourselves for today. And we were just blown away by the resources, the tools that are at our fingertips that some might not even know. So tell us about that and tell us how to learn more. Well, yeah, I mean, well, it's a real interesting, actually got involved in this conversation.
I was the same lady that had just a transpired community. I was actually called to assist, he met during the fact he met during the call me. And he was presented to the first time, the first few times that he actually sat down in an office class and what we realized at that time was that this was a real big need to be able to share more about the faith of Islam and understanding of who Muslims are and what our faith is all about. And in the term, you know, to really improve the efficacy of the delivery of healthcare to a Muslim patients to both to really begin to instill a more trust, you know, within that relationship, you know, between Muslims and caregivers, but also to give healthcare professionals who are actually working with Muslims and Muslim families, a bit more confident in their approach to families, especially in a crisis situation.
The difference to answer your question between an NOPI and an NOPN is that we understood based on the model, you know, how we work within the United States. So a lot of times these efforts for education and philanthropic pursuits actually come together a lot easier within nonprofit, you know, corporate formulation. And so we sought to form the institute more as a vehicle for designing innovative learning experiences. And so we have sought, you know, to a career relationship within the academic realm and we have actually written materials to help to increase the understanding in a number of areas.
And I can actually go into that at some point if we get to that. The network itself is really up instead of to have a vehicle at the ready when there are projects that actually require, you know, our organization to actually work, you know, in different ways, you know, following a different pursuits. So that's where you actually see the actual difference where the institute is more in line in alignment with your typical nonprofit, a philanthropic organization, you know, working with academia and where the network is actually situated to be able to take on projects and actually provide consulting services in the area of executive training, organizational training and the like. That's the answer question.
I was wondering then, how did you and Mr. Sharif connect in the Muslim life planning institute. And I know he has a story that I hope he's going to share with us a little bit in a little while. But how did that connection happen and how did you see that then broadening the scope of MLPI with the Institute of and he's really good friends, if not best friends with an uncle of mine who was sent, you know, return, you know, he's passed away.
So he was, you know, a good friend to him for many, many, many years. I actually came to, I know Samuel, like I said, a pre-days I work with MLPI and he was actually once a principal of an Islamic school located in Washington, D.C., where my children attended. And so we knew each other from that experience. However, it was a really interesting, all of a sudden tell the story, you know, about, you know, his involvement with Oregon transplant.
But it was in the middle of planning for the form, a FIC forum, which occurred on July 20th, 2016, within the middle of planning that happened to mention to Samuel, that, you know, we're putting this program together and we're really excited to be working with the international and super Islamic thought and, you know, in the match of Hari and he's like, you know, we're just trying to acquire a little bit more. And I said, you know, it's about Oregon, you know, our donation transplantation. It was really an entire reaching consensus on Oregon donation, a call to the American Muslim community. And I mean, he told me at their time, is that's how Danny, Danny, that's what Danny did, Daniel, a dangerous reef, his sort of, had actually donated Oregon.
So that was the first time that I even ever realized that that's what his daughter had done, you know, and I'll let Daniel tell that story. But that was in the run up to the actual FIC forum. And it was from there that I just knew like, wow, this is just not normal. Like this game, this is really divine, right?
That I would learn about this in this kind of way. I mean, we would talk all the time, we'd be doing things and all of a sudden this comes up and then I just casually mentioned it to him and he tells me, I mean, such an impactful thing that really, and I'm certain in a way, changes life. And so I talked with Leslie and I said, you know, we really think it's a really good idea if we invite, you know, Samuel and his wife, you know, to this event, you know, as donor families and the donor family, because I'm certain that they have a lot, you know, to say, if not even to say a lot, you know, to contribute in this space as we grapple, you know, with the challenge, the given that they are a Muslim family that made the choice to do this, right? At a time when most people thought that this was something that was forbidden.
So Samuel, are you willing to share a little bit about Danny with us and your experience? Yeah, sure. Thank you very much for having us. The experience is a little bit, let's start with Karine mentioned Danielle's passing.
What happened in 2006, Danielle passed and they had a traffic accident outside of Tampa, her and her, a friend of hers. Karine didn't, at the time, Karine didn't know about that. It was 2006, but Karine was just beginning his director debut in Washington, DC. He was over to school and he was sharing some information with me.
Karine and another lady he worked with actually attended the ceremony in Washington, DC, native vision, which is an organization of affiliated with John Tashins. Danielle had been along to six years, she had attended camps on different reservations with native vision and the NFL's players association were all combined. She was going to council for six years, so they put on a, a bit bird watching DC, Karine covered that, Karine, Karine covered it. At that time, she still didn't know that we had done it at the audience.
We passed forward, Karine and I kept working together. We passed forward to 2016 and he brings up to fix for them. And my wife and I, we attended one, what was important for us. And I shared a story with Danielle Pass.
Danielle was the eldest of our children, three children. At the time she passed, she was 36 years old. She had, the afternoon happened, she was on her way back to Tampa, to spend a weekend with her sister. She was coming from Atlanta where she had spent her, she had started her, she got her massive and her PhD coursework at the University of New Orleans.
I think it was good training that happened. And so she had to leave New Orleans, she went to Atlanta to finish her course working, going way back and this and friends when that didn't happen. Gloria and I flew in from Washington DC, Danielle has a younger sister, she's water now, she was from the way in Toronto, and she was coming in our son, came in the next day. We were at the hospital, out by the hospital of Tampa.
And one of the first questions, one of the we were approached by now, we know was adopted, we know that time, was adopted, was a doctor, inside of the network. Her questions like he managed to harvest, she didn't come to us, her concern was about Danielle, she was on life to pull, she asked him out of life, she said some things about her health. One thing that stuck with me in that conversation was leading up to that, she said, how was Danielle by the way, we couldn't find any idea. And she was 36, she was 25 years old, she was 36 years old, she just come back to get her message, she had just retired from the person basketball in Israel.
What we feel, Gloria and I, who's my wife, still think about, he comes to us, the doctor who handled that with us leading up to the donation, we don't remember asking. So a single standing there, my son was standing there, and a single was like that, from what she's saying, that's something that Danielle would want to do, and that's basically how that. So we don't get to see there are three adults now, at the time, if you remember, you're in the organization, you understand in 2006, we didn't, you couldn't give a thing, we don't like Georgia, we didn't know who received the art. They were the couldn't do anything about it.
I think five or six years later, we moved to Kansas City, obviously three letters that we carried to this day were that are written by the recipients of the art. So the organization has grown, our experience has grown. There was some tough times for us. One thing that what helped bring about most of my planning and what we do, there's doing the reaping and doing that in the life period, we had to go see, scargy, we were Muslim, and they sent us to a Christian.
And it's not just not to be disparaging our lifestyle, who we were, what we believe. I remember saying after the first visit, really love the way you approach and however it doesn't work for us, which is because we have a different culture, we have a different belief system that it doesn't mess. So we had, we never had anyone, we were some of the people now we never had anyone like Amanda Art who could speak to us in the time of a reaping, but we had done it, the art. So that's kind of what precipitated went after the pick form, we came out of the pick form that day on the 20th, 2016 July that Kareem and I on the way to the car.
And then back to the hotel was that we, what's developing here, we need to be more involved with how this happens and if it is to happen, something and I was just sharing it and move on from the ethics pick form. There weren't a lot of Muslims except maybe a manager or me, two or three, who were really pro-organ, or didn't express that, that concern. And most of our conversation, most of the conversation that day was PhDs and doctors back and forth with medical jargon. And I remember asking at the end of the day, I didn't speak to four o'clock, I was different than I could, I heard the bantering back and forth.
And my statement was, I believe that because of what you do in the field that you're in, that the bantering back and forth is something that you need. Personally, in the state that my wife and I had been in 10 years ago, when that happens, we really like some plane talking, someone to have some concern and to share the importance of what happening in your industry and how we could be more, how we would definitely be able to benefit our, how we'll feel better about ourselves and about our audience, our family's audience being placed somewhere else. And I would like to end with that. I'll never forget that procedure.
Let's leave, organization was one of the organizations since then, but that's been a lot of the, we found a number of the OPOs who have developed the concern you've lowered their Muslims, their Muslims to, it's coming a long way from when it was in 2006, I'll say that. And I hope we had a lot to do with it or something to do with it. However, we look forward and listen like planning to develop and to go forward increase and advance on that relationship and what Muslims do is for us, contributing the other thing as I close, we found out too, we met, Johari spoke of African-American, we found out at that big form that Muslims were the least likely to devote to a donate artist in African-American, but the second least likely. And we were, we belong to both of those cohorts.
So that wasn't really this building coming out of that big form. So thank you very much for allowing me to share. Oh, I appreciate it. And as somebody that's been in this field for a lot of years, more than I care to think about, but 25 actually, if you're asking, it is very different today than it was in the early 2000s.
And I'm so glad that your experience working with MLPI and being involved with other OPOs and seeing some other sides that you see that growth. And I do think your organization is a huge part of that. And I want to continue to bring that forward and bring the exposure and knowledge to all of our OPOs across the country so that we're ahead and we can support this community and the Islamic faith. And I just, I think it's so important.
And I'm really glad that you have shared your story. So you mentioned that it was a thick farm, is that correct? Forum, yes. Forum.
So could you explain the role of, I guess, thick so that we're kind of all on the same page, exactly what the meaning behind that is? I mean, it's hard. I mean, it's hard. I mean, kick back to you then.
I don't feel like it was coming to the point. In many ways, when we think about how do people make certain ethical decisions? What is the source of knowledge that they use to make kind of major decisions? Usually, if you have a tax problem, you go to your accountant and the accountant looks at the best practices of tax law and says, OK, this is the best way.
If you're doing estate planning, you go to an estate planner and they say, OK, if it's like this, it's like this, and you have this way. When it comes to matters of faith, an imam will look at a council of scholars who have weighed in on an issue and they will come up with a ruling. And so in America, there are a number of different well-established groups. One of them is the Institute of, international Institute of Islamic Thought.
And so what they did for us at our request was to bring together scholars from a variety of Islamic juridical backgrounds to hear the case for and against the ethics, religious ethics of organization, transportation. And so we had a day long proceeding. And among the members there were individuals who were actually from one of the councils of jurisprudence or FIC councils. And this one is from the Islamic Society of North America, which is one of the largest.
So if you could almost think of it as like if you're a Baptist, a Baptist conference, Southern Baptist Conference, where from if the pastors and bishops and Thor sit and agree about something, then the body politic below them then embrace that ruling. So Islamic Society of North America or ISNA has its own body of scholars that look at various ethical, some of them are religious, some of them are financial. Say for instance, the issues around, you'll read in the Bible, particularly the Old Testament, about interest, or usury. Instead of saying, okay, well the council will say, well, what is usury today?
Right? And so what financial instruments are not acceptable or acceptable? So in the same way, we asked the FIC council to take the information from this day long conference sponsored by the Think Tank International Institute of Islamic Thought. And then they met over a period of years.
This is like sending something to the Supreme Court. And we kept hammering them guys, please can you give us your ruling? Because literally people are dying to know what is your opinion. And finally, they did issue an opinion, but for a number of years we presented at their medical association, they have a breakout session at their annual conference discussing this in the open forum.
I think that was the first year that we did that. Brother Sharice family was on the panel. So it brought a human face to the issue. And I think his family's engagement and other families that came forward in the sort of public meetings really caused the FIC council to say, okay, this is something that in a Supreme Court sense, this is a matter that this court should take on.
And ultimately, they came with an opinion that said under certain circumstances, it's permissible, we're not going to say it's strongly encouraged, but permissible under certain circumstances. And of course, you know, like when you read anything from a Supreme Court, the dissenting opinion is also, you know, has some space in it. And I think all of that is good. That was December of 2019, December of 2019 that they went to that.
Right. And it's like a year of some heavy lifting to get those dollars as almost as judges. But anecdotally, I'm going to tell you, I was at Isma's Convention, just leaving our forum going down the escalators. And I saw a family that I knew going up the escalator and they looked at me and they said, Imam, it looks like we missed your session.
I said, yeah, they said, so I just want to know, can I, is it permissible or not? I pulled out my driver's license and I said, I'm an organ donor. He said, that's enough for me. Fantastic.
But you know, really, because these are issues that people, I mean, people, you know, everyone weighs, you know, is there something I should do or not not do? If there's no family history, there's no cultural legacy of this is what we do. People wonder, right? Yeah.
And if you have, if you have a ruling or an opinion or you have leadership and people say, okay, well, you know, if it's good enough for the Imam, it's good enough for me. And I don't need, I don't need to, you know, I don't need to read along, you know, treat us because at the end of the day, these kinds of rulings are designed. But it's going to make people laugh easier when they're in moments of conflict, that they have, they have something, you know, solid that they can hold onto. Some guidance.
And in that, and by the way, what we learned is that just because Imam Jahari says, or the Sikh Council of North America says that doesn't mean people are going to do what people do or not in the quiet of their space, people have other sometimes other compelling reasons to do or not to do something. But having having a fatwa, right, which is religious ruling from the Sikh Council really does help. And they are councils who have similar and that is in Britain, the British Association of Muslims has a, has a thick ruling about saying that it's permissible. And Saudi Arabia, they are fit councils.
It's permissible in Saudi Arabia. So they have kidney transplants in Saudi Arabia. Some people who are very Saudi centric. Well, like, it's Saudi Arabia is conservative as they are.
If they have kidney plant transplant centers, it's got to be. You know, I mean, I want to use it. I can say this because I'm, you know, they have some things that are really backward. Let me get it right.
For me, that's pretty backward, right? Yeah. You're not going to find it in a Quran. You're not going to find the prophet Muhammad ever saying when it should not drive.
Right. But this is this, they're taking the law of the books slowly. But with all of that backwardness, they have a number of world class kidney transplant centers. So if it's good enough for them in the Gulf, good enough for the rest of us.
That is perfect. And that kind of brings us to Colin. I'd like to know how Eversight got involved with this great mission and organization and kind of what insight you have as to how we can share it with others and make sure that this education and training and support of the community continues to go forward and to grow for having me and allowing you to share in this work that we're doing together with Muslim Life Planning Institute. So really our work in this area began as an outgrowth of our work internationally.
As Kareem mentioned at the outset, I'm Vice President of Global Development for Eversight. So I'm responsible for all of our international programs. And we work in a variety of countries, several of which are majority Muslim countries. And among other things, one of the areas of work that we do is to build effective systems for eye banking and cornea donation.
The largest doing is in Pakistan, where we've been engaged for the last few years in a program to build a national network for eye banking and cornea donation. That's a country of about 200 million people. Ninety-seven percent Muslim has a very high incidence of cornea blindness due to a variety of factors. And it really kind of points out the importance of this work to our mission at Eversight, because most of the world's population currently lacks access to site restoration through cornea transplantation.
And the reason for that is a severe shortage of cornea tissues globally. We've gotten used to over the last 25 years or so, the idea that in the United States, anyone who needs a cornea transplant can get one. Thanks to the generosity of our owners and donor families. But in Pakistan, for example, there are 250,000 people right now waiting for a cornea transplant.
So that's why we engage in this kind of work is because to really take care of those patients, it's absolutely necessary to build these effective systems. And so as we've been engaged in that work, we've learned a lot about the importance of cultural competency in building a successful donation program, because it's really not just about the clinical best practices. It really has to also be about connecting and building trust between the medical transplant field and the community at large. So by engaging with Muslim communities to build culturally appropriate donation systems in countries like Pakistan, we learned a lot of lessons and we wanted to find ways to bring those lessons back and help to inform our engagement with our Muslim communities here in the United States.
We're one of the largest I think organizations in the US. Our service area includes five states, as well as our international activity. So it was particularly important to us to inform our engagement with Muslim communities, because as Karine mentioned at the beginning, we're headquartered in Michigan, which has one of the largest Muslim populations in the United States. So with that in mind, we began working, I think about two years ago or so, is when we really started out working with Muslim Life Planning Institute to develop our current outreach program that we've been working on, which has been generously supported by grants from the Detroit Medical Center Foundation and the Gift of Life Michigan Foundation.
And we really see this partnership with MLPI as a first step toward developing better understanding among transplant professionals for how to build strong and trusting relationships with Muslim communities. And we hope we can eventually develop a model that can be used in many such communities, both within the US and overseas. We're still very much in a learning phase, and we know how important that learning is to the success of the work. I think I mentioned earlier the importance of just listening to understand where people are coming from.
And that's been probably the biggest lesson that we've learned from overseas. And it's such a simple thing, but it's such a profound thing is to just listen and develop that understanding. And so as I said, we've been trying to engage with that and then to be able to bring it back and use that to inform our engagement here in the US. Thank you.
And Kareem, I'll toss it back to you. You had mentioned earlier in the podcast about quickly going through some of the tools that you guys offer. MLPN.life is where we were researching. We thought it was a great site, but best practices for developing outreach approaches.
And that includes intro to Islam, cultural norms, attitudes. It was just like a one-stop shop. So if you could kind of hit on some of those important points there. The point I wanted to drive home is that I think there are a lot of entry points where the education and awareness and innovative learning experience is actually can really be effective in transforming organizations, specifically, organ procurement organizations, in their dealing, not only with just Muslim communities, by the way, but I think more broadly on speaking, just based on the approach and the information that we cover, but as well, specifically the Muslim community.
And so as you said, we've written a curriculum that does include introduction to Islam, as well as our family dynamics, choices and the grieving process, appropriate palliative care for Muslims, a module, and sensitivity training, overcoming your own bias, I mean, Muslims and Islamic faith, and as well, another module entitled Islamic bio-ethnic concerns. And so we're really in that space where we want to assist the professional community with their ability to have confidence going in and speaking with Muslim families with that level of cultural confidence that will have it, that the Muslim family doesn't even hear the question as to whether or not you authorized. But that the that the sentiment is what actually comes through and that the natural inclination of that family to give a gift that will give again and again, something that families actually would really be open to doing as it happened with Samuel and his family. And Kareem, I'd also like to put a little plug in there for your profound conversations.
You're in your second season, a huge fan of that as well. And I think that it is tremendous value to anybody that listens to those conversations. They're frank, they're honest, they're well educated. And I've just found it to be a great learning experience for me.
And so I think that we should point people in that direction as well. So I want to raise my hand before we conclude to something that we've said a couple of times in different ways. But one of the things that I think we have found that is most and perhaps unique to the Muslim mindset is a concept called Sadhika Jarya. Sadhika Jarya, a perpetual charity.
And so for many people who are looking at the loss of a loved one, are thinking what can continue to bring benefit to the life of my loved one in this life for others and in the next couple of themselves. And that thing is something that I could give that after my death will continue to bring benefit to those who are alive. And so when Muslims think about organ tissue transplantation as a Sadhika Jarya, as a perpetual gift from their loved one, it is a profound discussion. It is a discussion that I think in most of our encounters, and most of our encounters has been the thing that waves heaviest on their hearts.
Not how is it, what is the procedure that's done, not who's going to get the organ, but is this going to be a mom for my loved ones, something that's going to continue to donate life and health and all manner of opportunities so that my loved one can continue to reap benefits for that donation until whatever impact that person who I have helped ends. So for us, it's really a profound concept of charity as a perpetual gift. I think. Can I add something to that?
Yeah, what I want to add to that's interesting because as well, in understanding the sentiment that Muslims have in terms of do work that would provide a benefit in this life and in the hereafter, I think if you follow that physiological conclusion, the conversation around the global need for I corneas makes a lot of sense to Muslims. When we connect the idea that donation is permissible in Islam, then disconnect the notion that donation has anything to do with the mutilation of the body. We can then make a connection between the need that people have around the world and how a simple choice that we make in terms of providing I cornea is actually living into the subject area of the email on Spokov. That's why this relationship with Eversight is just so beautiful.
And it's an easier conversation to have with people. And I think once it catches on with the multitude of Muslims that we have in this country around I cornea, I think the solid organ and tissue conversation will become a lot easier. But by the way, that word in Arabic, Sadakah, is a similar word in Hebrew, Sadakah. So as we engage in this work in a multicultural way, there are many lessons that we learned that are actually transferable to other cultural and ethnic groups so that our engagement with the Muslim community isn't just sort of a narrow one off, but really opens us up to a kind of global way of about things.
And in many ways, there are many cultural overlaps and they call them something different. But they really, the entreats of people's heart and soul as it relates to issues around the transcendent nature of the human spirit. I think that's the human connection that we all do this work for. And I couldn't have said or summed all this up any better than Imam and Kareem.
I thank all of you for being with us. Colin, your insight and bringing experiences from other countries to our country is invaluable. And I look forward to working with you more. Samuel, Cherife, thank you so much for sharing your story and your perspective.
And I wish you peace moving forward. And I know that your daughter is a hero and is continuing to live on and others. And I thank you for that. Imam, I remember you from four years ago.
I remember your speech. So you were as funny today as you were then. And I truly look forward to working with you in the future as well. And Kareem, I think you know how much I think of you.
I don't think of myself as funny, by the way. You make me smile and you bring happiness. And I'm learning fun. I have about 18 pages of notes here.
I'm not sure all the spellings are really good, but we're there. And so I just, I can't thank you enough. And for giving us the time, I look forward to future episodes with one or all of you. And we will be in touch.
That's not a threat, by the way. But it is a promise. And I'll see you on your arena event. But not going to mention the picture.
Excellent. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much.
Thank you. That's a pleasure. Here on the Gifted Live, we are taking a moment for mental health. And Sarah, you mentioned caregiver burnout.
So we're going to talk about caregiver burnout today. And what are some ways you can find it? So just to be clear, what caregiver burnout means is you are the primary caregiver, the primary support for a family member, a friend who is in a moment of need, whether it's illness or otherwise. And it can be very hard, particularly with illness.
A lot of times this conversation leads around end of life. So with family members who are either entering hospice, who have been diagnosed with cancer. So what we're learning in a lot of research is that it's very, very difficult and can create a lot of burnout for people when they are the primary caregiver for someone. So just want to talk about some hints and some little things that you can do to take care of yourself as well.
Well, I've had to travel that road many a time. And I just remember exhaustion, like brain, like you can't even think. I don't remember being that spot. So I'm curious.
Right. And you know, there's a lot of guilt that comes with that because first and foremost, it's just recognizing you're feeling guilty about your exhaustion, about your burnout, because it's okay to feel those things. It's hard work. It's emotional.
It's physical. So now that it's okay to feel burned out because it is an important job and it's very difficult. So the first thing is just to assemble your own team. When you are a caregiver, your whole job is assembling a team for the person you're caring for, right?
Make sure you have your own team, friends, family, people outside that you can go to just to talk, just to let them be there for you or to distract you, whatever you need, have your own team. I always say, you can't care for someone unless you're cared for first. So make sure you've got that in place. And practice all those good coping skills we talked about, practice mindfulness.
Do anything you need that makes you feel good, it makes you feel purposeful and find an outlet. So practice your good coping skills and also have a hobby, have something that's creative that you can focus on for yourself that makes you feel round and whole and let you have an outlet. And then this is the most important one, in my opinion, which is to set boundaries. So it's hard to do.
It's very hard to do, especially for small things, like if you're a parent and your kid has a project or if you need to say no to bringing roundies to the soccer practice, whatever it is, know that you have boundaries and there's only so much you can handle. We're all just human. We can't fix everything. We can't be everything for everyone.
So set very good boundaries and stick to them. That's the main point is to stick to those boundaries and it's okay to have boundaries. So Sarah, what should a caregiver at work do when they come home and continue to be a caregiver? So it's a nurse, a doctor, a physical therapist, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, social worker.
Right. We hear that a lot in healthcare. So when you're a healthcare professional, your job is to help people and then you have to come home and you have your own family and friends, your own responsibilities. So know that it's okay to say no.
That's a good first boundary, saying no to things that you can sing it to and know that it's okay to feel tired when you get home and to take a moment, whether it's 20 minutes by yourself, to take a shower, just do something that's for you and then you can go and reconnect with your family and friends when you are ready. If you are exhausted and you're two-year limit because of whether it's your mental physical exhaustion from work, that time, if you don't say no, that time with your family is not as whole as it could be if you didn't take that 20, 30 minutes to yourself. So know it's okay to say no for a little while and when you're ready to connect, connect. Great.
Let's break through it like we talk about. Big deep breaths. Health caregivers, forget that. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Y'all do. I've had some great teachers. Am I like just for me watching?
So like my sister took great care of our parents and all that and watching how she did it. So I picked up certain things that I thought were important that I have in my bag of tools. But also we travel with Team Louisiana to the transplant games, have a lot of recipients. So there's a lot on there and I think them talking together, like talking to other people who have been through it, that seems to be a big help for others.
Oh yeah. Support. No one you need to lean on someone. No one you need to feel validated because no one understands your struggle as well as someone who's been through something similar.
So find a community of support. There's lots of online like Facebook groups of friends, family, who have been through similar things, grief support groups, different things like that, that you can go to and find that support. So it's very important to find people who have been through similar things who can validate you and affirm you and let you know that you're not alone. And also if this is a family member or a friend who you're their caregiver for, find little ways to connect with that person that you're caring for that doesn't have to do with your caregiving.
What I mean by that is your sole responsibility could be the medical health, the physical health, but find something to talk about with them that reconnects you to them as a person, not to their illness or their ailment. And it'll bring about just a better, it'll reduce your burnout because they're a human too. They're still there with you and just find little moments and little things that you can connect to with them that aren't about their illness. Yeah.
And I see people around me doing that. I'm just like in all, I got to think about that, but that is the beautiful side of it when you work around all these amazing folks. So great topic. Do you have a topic you'd like to share to cover?
You can email us at info at thegiftedlife.org. And that is episode 149 of The Gifted Life. Thank you for listening, everyone. And remember, if you're not already registered, you can register today right now as an organ eye and tissue donor anytime, register me.org.
Thank you to our guests today. And if you want more information on this episode, you can find it at the mlpn.life website and guys, the best place to find us as always is our website, thegiftedlife.org. You can listen to any of our episodes on the website or Google Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you do listen on Apple, please subscribe and leave us a five star rating so that others can find us.
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