Jay & Radhi Talk About Why Men Feel So Lonely

The, uh, male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, that's me. I'm so lonely, I just... Yeah, I'm gonna talk to you, unfortunately.

I want to be wanted. I want to be loved. I want to be appreciated. I don't have nobody to talk to, eh?

I'm not nobody to comfortably get you. Why are men so lonely? You don't need to have a hundred people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments.

Fifteen percent of US men reported having no close friends. One of my friends said that one of my biggest icks is seeing a man cry. Being vulnerable has been a long-term difficulty. Women seem to want a man who is emotionally available but not emotional.

Sometimes I just don't feel seen. Sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've been used to if you are trying something new with yourself. As a man, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know. Hey everyone, welcome back to this week's episode of On Purpose, with Jay Shetty and, rather difficult care.

We have created these moments of conversation so that we can share a lot of the things that we discuss in our car journeys, when we're traveling places, when we have space and time to actually think about what's happening in the world, the conversation we're having with friends, and sharing all the things that people are finding a little bit difficult. And just, you know, having open-ended, curious conversations based on it. Yeah, we wanted to find a space where we could share conversations we're having and whether you're watching this on your own or whether you're watching this with your partner, or whether you're watching this with a friend. We just wanted to engage in conversations that we think people are having.

They may not know who to go to and where to tend to, and so we hope that this provides a space and an open form to have those. And today's topic is why are men so lonely? And this is based on something that researchers are calling a friendship recession among men. Oh, gosh, that sounds good.

So just to set it up, 15% of US men reported having no close friends. How many percent? 15% in 2021, which is up from 3% in 1990. Only 13% of men have 10 plus close friends, which is down from 33% in 1990.

And one in four US men under 35 report feeling lonely. One in four men under 35 report feeling lonely with US men ranking lonelier than peers in the most developed countries. And loneliness was declared a national epidemic by US Surgeon General Vivek Murthy in 2023. That is honestly really sad though, but who also knew that Akon was so right with the songs he was singing back in the day.

What? He's a song lonely. I know, I don't know if people can even remember that. You're aging yourself.

No, but you know what? Just to be there is a song called lonely. Does he? Yeah, that's one of my favourite.

I love that song. Oh, no. So good. But all that to say, men are really speaking about it, but we're just not listening.

That's what we are. That's really what it is. People are somehow talking about it, but we're not listening. It's so interesting because with men, I noticed that men often travel in groups, like recently I've been laughing with my cousins because we go to the gym and there's these packs of men that come in.

Girls will be alone. They'll be doing their own thing. But there are two, three, sometimes a pack of six men who are hyping each other up in the gym, working out. Like, I noticed that a lot, but I noticed it so much more in sports.

And so when I was thinking about it, I realised that so many men connect through activities, women connect through, we'll go get our nails done together. That's a space to talk. You can't do much else but talk. You go get coffee.

What do you do? You talk and have a coffee. And I think a lot of the way that women spend time together creates space for emotional conversations, creates space and time to have that, whereas a lot of the time when men meet, they go to the pub to watch a game, they'll play an activity. It doesn't leave room or space to have a conversation, except for before, like, or did you watch that game and then afterwards, like, oh, yeah, I'm going to go watch the other game.

And so I think... Is that what men sound like to you? Yeah, that's what they sound like. They're just going to have a pint.

But I think that the way that they spend time together kind of reflects what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. I never thought about it like that.

You're right. You're right that I have to make a concerted effort to find time to talk to my friends before or after we play pickle ball or paddle or whatever it may be. So your spot on the way I like to spend time with my friends is we play sports together, we're outdoors together, we're watching a game together. So I have to make an added effort as a man who does not feel lonely.

I have to make an added effort to spend time with my friends. Now, I get this question a lot because we also both moved. And so I live in LA now. We live in LA and we were born and raised in London.

So all my best friends, my friends that know me the best, know me 360, all live in London. And one of them just moved to Dubai. And so when I tell people that I speak to my best mate, it was my best man at my wedding three times a week, most people are absolutely shocked. Yeah.

They're like, how? Now, I have to give credit because he also picks up, he also makes time, he also makes a massive effort. But the reality is that at one point, I realize that if we were not talking two to three times a week, I would feel lonely because he is my closest friend. He does know me the best.

He has known me for the last 20 years. Yeah. And so for me, that set up has what's allowed me to not feel lonely because my life is busy. Also, I think when you get married naturally, on the week nights, I want to spend time with you.

We're investing in our relationship and my friends are in relationships also investing in their relationship. So if I'm now only seeing mates once a week, maybe once every two weeks, maybe once every month, how are we going to keep that relationship up? How am I not going to feel lonely because I don't have the time to be vulnerable? If I'm only seeing you once a month, I may not be confident or comfortable enough to open my heart to be vulnerable.

I think from men in general, being vulnerable has been a long term difficulty. I think about a lot of the men that I've seen and who've had that kind of surface level connection, not surface level, but not a place of conversation with their friends where they can really speak about their heart. I'm actually feeling really down today. You will not normally hear a man say that to their friend.

How can someone who's used to doing these activities with their friends who's used to connecting to them based on having a drink or going out and playing sport, how do you make that transition? Because I saw this trend on TikTok. And it was these guys calling like good night trend, but then it also tended the one where you call and say, I'm just calling to say good night to you. And then also there was a trend saying, do you think I should get therapy?

A guy calling and asking their friends, do you think I should get therapy? And it was really interesting because you could tell the guys who don't have that connection with their friends and be like, oh, are you being such a loser? Why are you being such a loser? Or are you saying making fun of it versus even believing that it could be true?

And so how would a guy who's so used to having 20 years of this friendship, whereas based on jokes and laughter and not really talking about what's going on, make that switch? Because that can be quite uncomfortable for a lot of people I imagine. I mean, you've raised such a good point. And I never saw that trend.

But that's actually really sad for me that even in this day and age, when a man has plucked up the courage to say something like that, that it's met with that kind of reaction. Yeah. Because you'd hope that there are athletes today who've talked about their mental health. Understand that's okay to not be okay.

It's time to talk. It's time to change. You know, you got so much responsibility as an athlete to your team. You know, you got to play at a certain level.

And your teammates count, you got the pressure from the media. Everybody's wanted something. And everybody has things that you can't see, you can't touch. It is time for sport to accept its responsibility with this issue.

There are athletes and sports and actors and musicians, male, who've spoken about the challenges with their mental health on all their platforms. I feel like we're living at a time where some of the toughest, strongest men on the planet talk about these things. And so I think we've got to shift the narrative that when you say something vulnerable, that you're weak or that in some way you're a loser or in some way that you're not strong. But I think as we have these athletes and superstars talking about their pain, I think there's also been a trend online, which is of the alpha male, which is this idea of if you're a high value man, you don't talk about your feelings.

You just have discipline and you break through it. And I always find this really, really interesting because I consider myself to be quite alpha and I consider myself to be quite emotionally engaged. And so I've always tried to do both and I don't see them as a paradox. I see both as strength.

So I'm disciplined. I enjoy working out. I enjoy competition. I love all those things.

Yeah, you're nodding because you're like, yeah, I'm extremely competitive. And at the same time, I think talking about my feelings is really important. Emotional vulnerability is really important. And being able to make space for my friends and share is really important.

So I think a part of it is, first of all, accepting within yourself that it's okay. I think even before you start looking for people to share it with, do you still think it's a weakness? Because if you think it's a weakness, then when you share it and someone rejects it, you're just going to go and climb into your shell even more. But if you think it's a strength and you believe it's value and you believe it's something you need, I actually, this is the hardest advice to give, but it's true.

You can have your friends that you play football with and have dance with and have jokes with. And if they're not the ones that you can share this with, you may have to find a separate group of friends where you can talk about these things. And that doesn't mean you abandon your old friends. It doesn't mean your old friends are bad.

It doesn't mean you have to leave them. It just means that you may have to start creating a community of new men that you can have this community with. Because if you're being met with your loser, dude, you don't need therapy. You just need to get a pint down the pub.

If you're being met with that, then that's not an easy wall to break down. Oh, it's not. First, you should try with your friends. You should try with the friends you have.

But if you don't, you are going to have to start constructing a new group. I've been seeing this really cool, I don't know why I'm getting these ads, but these really cool ads that, not ads, but, you know, when there are retreats and stuff happening. And there are so many men's retreats that happen. Oh, yes.

And I think, you know, I remember recommending this to a friend whose partner was struggling. And I was saying, why don't you go on, why don't you meet completely new people who are going somewhere for the same reason. If someone's going to a men's retreat, that means that they are lacking male friends. They are wanting to speak to people who are wanting to open their heart, connect, heal things from their past, whatever it is.

But sometimes you do have to go outside of what you've been used to if you are trying something new with yourself. And I think the other part that I was going to mention that I remember seeing online was, you know, they're all these really funny, I find them really funny, but at the same time, I can see how for a man who's trying to be more emotional, it can make you shut down. It's, you know, when you have to now treat your man like a princess. And essentially saying that men are being too emotional these days.

And I think these days, women seem to want a man who is emotionally available, but not emotional. So they want someone who's emotionally available. Like, oh, I need him to understand me and I want him to get where I'm coming from. And I want him to be attuned to me, but then I don't want him to cry.

Like, I don't want him to, or when we're talking about ix, one of my friends said that one of my biggest ix is seeing a man cry will, like, be emotional. And I was like, oh, wow. Like, okay. It's so interesting, but I do think whether a woman says it or not, there's quite a few people who feel that way where a man crying is still seen as being a weakness, but I still want you to be emotionally available to me.

And so I think for men seeing stuff like that online, we think it's, people think it's just funny, but I think that can be really difficult because it stops you then from also being okay with the idea that I should be able to cry, be unhappy, show that I'm feeling upset, depressed, whatever it is. And so I think a lot of what we see online can really play a role in how we feel. And that's what makes it hard for men because they then think, now, whether that's sometimes it's so interesting as well because social media perception is also not reality. Totally.

But then we start believing that it is. And then men go, God, I can't share that emotion around her because she's going to think I'm weak, but then I'm carrying this load and I don't know what to do with it. Which then changes me as a partner, as a person, to connect to other people. And you would hope, you taught me this, and I loved it when you said it to me years ago, which was this idea that, and that's why your podcast is called A Really Good Cry, was this idea that crying and laughing are actually just the same.

They're expressions of an emotion. And when you think something's really funny, you don't have to think about laughing. Like, you don't go, oh, that's really funny. I'm now going to laugh.

You just laugh because it's funny. You don't have to think about crying. Crying something that happens when something affects you in your gut or your heart, your emotion. You just cry.

You don't go, oh, now I'm going to cry. You also don't stop laughing, but people stop tears. Correct. Yeah.

People will say stop crying, stop crying. You never say stop laughing, stop laughing. It's going to be a weird thing to say. Yeah.

And we say, oh, no, no, no, don't cry about that. Don't cry about that. It's okay. And it's like, you wouldn't say don't laugh about that.

You know, I'm just offensive. But Kendrick Lamar did a cover for Harper's Bazaar. And in that piece, he talked about it. Wait, they not like us.

They not like us. Oh, no, the wrong person. That is the right person. Oh, there you go.

Good. All right. So he said, he's going to be really impressed by that. He said, my tears is all on the internet.

So Lamar says in reference to a viral moment where he cried on camera. And he goes, and now I look back and I love that moment. I love that that happened because it showed me in real time expressing myself and seeing all the work that I put forth actually come to life in that moment. Wow.

Right. And that's Kendrick Lamar. How many Grammys this year and performed at the Super Bowl. And he's saying that.

And he goes on to say, my pops. He was tough. He never showed weakness. And I learned to experience that.

But for what I do, there is certainly no growth without vulnerability. If I understood the power of vulnerability earlier, I could have had more depth and more reach to the guys that was around me. I don't know whether I'm more shocked at that or the fact that you were a Drake concert last week and now you're quoting Kendrick Lamar. Why are you trying to start V?

I'm not. I'm just saying. Why are you starting V for me? Why are you starting?

But honestly, Kendrick, those are some bars. Right. It's just I'm sharing that because I hope it's empowering for men because you see, you know, a rapper is having this rap battle. He's like the Super Bowl.

You know, all this stuff and stuff. But this is what he's saying about himself and his life. And he's talking about how his dad was tough. His dad never showed any weakness.

And he learned that. But he's actually saying, I wish I learned the power of vulnerability earlier. And so I'm like, that's coming from, you know. It's really difficult for people who, you know, just thinking about him as a rapper.

But it's, I guess if someone who's a rapper in that scene in that environment can do something like that, it gives up to people who maybe in an environment like we were talking about before that find it difficult to break out of that same cycle of spending time with people. But I do think that community is the key factor to feeling like you can open up. And I think building community is one of the hardest things that people find. And that's why I think loneliness, especially in men, if they're not in a partnership that also forces them to come together with couples and meet other men.

It's like, where do people meet other people? Yeah. And that's what I think. But I think the other challenges for men is that I think women like to gather in groups.

But sometimes men have better conversations one to one at the end of last night with a guy that someone that I became friends with early on with part of a meditation group that I was teaching. I bumped into him randomly at a grocery store once. We spent three hours that evening together. Oh, yeah.

We both have crazy travel schedules. We don't see each other often, but we happen to be in London. He's leaving today. And we made time to go to dinner together.

And I'm not. We both had the best time. It was so nice. And we probably spent three hours talking.

It was full on open conversation. We dove in deep in 30 minutes. And we both walked away going, we need to do that more. And I feel like that.

Like when I'm with a man one on one and we're at the same frequency, I can lock in. Actually, when I'm in group environments, I really struggle because you're trying to create a cohesive environment. But there may be two guys over there who just want to talk about the football. Maybe another two guys over there who just want to talk about whatever they, you know, whatever's happening at work or whatever it is.

And then there's a couple of you that actually want to go deeper, but you can't because you can't direct what eight people are doing. It throws off the frequency. Yeah. Whereas I feel like women will all talk about one subject together.

Whereas I think a lot of men, I know personally that I feel building one-to-one friendships is the space where I get to do that. And it was interesting because this was talking about emotional conditioning and how girls and boys start out on the same trajectory of prioritizing friendships. But boys feel pressure to give up their same sex friendships because it feels girly. So the idea of hanging out together and I was talking about feelings, boys are conditioned to feel that that's a girly thing to do.

What you felt with that guy is called the romance. One thing I learned as well was I needed friends in my industry because they also have a shorthand for how I feel. And that's how he felt too. It's like having friends that are in a similar industry.

You already have something in common. You already have an understanding. Yeah. But you know, I think women feel that way too.

I've been speaking about a friend that I've made recently who feels I feel like I've known for so long. But when you feel that connection to a friend, when you feel understood by them, when you feel like you can share a lot of yourself that you can't normally with other people, it really I think friendships are so close to the feelings of romantic relationships. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a weird way, but it really is.

It sparks the same excitement. And because you feel understood. Yeah. I remember you saying this.

I think on my podcast, we said not everyone is supposed to understand you and love is understanding and love is also so special that not you don't feel it with so many people. Yeah. And so yes, you feel in a romantic partnership, but how beautiful if you can actually feel it with friendships too. And I think women are feeling lonely as well.

Really? Yeah. I think finding community for women is so difficult because then women also have this aspect of, unfortunately, where gossip is a big part of connection. And I think that makes a lot of women feel insecure in friendships because gossip ends up being a big part of it.

Now. If you feel like if you say something to someone, they're going to tell someone else in the group and that trust being broken makes it uncomfortable to actually be vulnerable. Yeah. I think so.

I think that's a big part of female friendship, unfortunately, especially what I grew up with. And I think this one-to-one connection, what you said is very important because even for women finding that one-to-one connection where you feel you can confide in this person, I think the women of big thing is trust. Can I trust what I'm telling this girl, she's not judging me. She's not going to share it with anybody else.

I think that's something that's quite rare. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting hearing about it from that perspective.

I found the one-to-one thing to be the solver for this. I recommended to so many of my male friends and I've said, guys, we always hang out in big groups. I used to be a pack person. Yeah.

I've always loved hanging out in big groups. And I've recently started spending individual time with someone that I really want to spend individual time with and it makes such a difference. Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's also like you have to find people who want to do this. So not every person I go out to dinner with, like yesterday is somewhere where I walk away going, or we could do this anytime. Because maybe the conversation stays selfless. So there is a bit of frequency matching.

You have to accept the situation. Yeah. I also don't think every friend of yours to be a real friend has to have a deep conversation with. There are friends that I'm happy to call up and be like, did you see what Manchester United just did?

Yeah. I went to have that relationship with them. And I would love if that can also go to how you're feeling today. But not every relationship has to do that.

And so sometimes I also feel we put too much pressure on everyone in our life to be everything. What do you think are some good questions and that people could ask themselves? Like men, what are some good questions that men could ask themselves to understand? Am I feeling like I don't have a good connection with people?

But then also questions that they can maybe open up this idea of vulnerability with their friends where that doesn't feel too scary or too intense. We all want to feel better, to have more energy and more focus throughout the day. That's why I co-founded Juni, a sparkling adaptogenic drink made with powerful ingredients like ashwagandha and lion's mane. It's designed to boost your mood, support your focus and give you natural energy, or without the crash.

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That's why I co-founded Juni, a sparkling adaptogenic drink made with powerful ingredients like ashwagandha and lion's mane. It's designed to boost your mood, support your focus and give you natural energy, or without the crash. Get your daily mood boost with Juni at Whole Foods Market, or head to drinkjuni.com to find a store near you. I think that our lonely is, do you have, so if a man wants to know whether he's lonely or not, do you have three friends that you could call at 3am and share something that you're struggling with?

Even one friend. Even one friend. That's something I would look at. And then I would also ask for a man, do you have one friend that you could call to share your biggest win with?

Because sometimes that could be harder. Yes, good one. Because sharing your pain is hard, but sharing your success is harder because it can come as a provider. Yes.

So you may feel you have to play your success down. And so I think that's what I would look at. So that helps you figure out whether you're lonely or not. And then it's like, do you feel you have someone in your life who doesn't judge you and gives you the space to be all of yourself?

And that's what you said. We all want a space in our life where we feel seen and not judged. Yes. Actually you're saying this is really interesting.

This guy came up to me. He worked at the restaurant that I went to last night and he came up to me afterwards when I was leaving and he said, hey, I listened to the podcast, really love what you're doing, my wife love what you and your wife are doing. And he said, but sometimes I just don't feel seen. Oh, interesting.

And he said, sometimes I feel only successful people feel seen. And I'm still trying to become successful and I'm not there yet. And I said to him, I said, actually success for people also don't feel seen because they feel seen through a particular lens. Whereas the most seen I feel is when I'm with my wife or with a deep old friend that I know and they see all of me.

And I was like, you're going to feel more seen if you spend time with people deeply and individually than you are if you have a global brand. Yeah. If you have lots of eyes on you. It doesn't mean you feel seen.

Yeah. People are ultimately catching 30 seconds and making a judgment on you. Yes. And so anyway, I got a friend attention.

But no, but that's really that's such a good point. I think, you know, even when you're younger, you think you need more friends and you have to have multiple people that you can do different things with. But as you get older, you realize that it's not necessarily about having how many people you can invite your birthday. I was telling my birthday recently and I think I have like eight friends who I can call here.

Maybe and all of them are going to end up coming. And at that time, maybe realize how thankful I am for just those eight friends. It wasn't, oh, I've got 20 family members coming and like eight friends coming. Oh, wow.

I've got eight friends that are here that I want to spend time with and then I was trying to collect other people and add people to it that I was like, do I really need these people here? Or am I trying to collect numbers to feel like I've got more friends unnecessarily? And so I think the views versus being seen is a really important part of when you're thinking about friendships because you don't need to have 100 people at your birthday party. You need three people that you can go to when you're in your hardest moments, when you feel like you've done something that you need to talk about that you're judging yourself about that you feel that person not going to judge you for.

And that's so much more important than having the 30 friends at your birthday party. I'm so glad you made my tangent relevant. Yeah. It was really good.

That was really good. I think I think a lot of men feel lonely because we're always in crowds. That's the idea that you're always in groups. And so that same idea that you're saying is that we've always been taught that more friends means more happiness and less friends can actually equal more happiness if there's more intimacy and more depth to that relationship.

Loneliness is linked to depression, anxiety, dementia, diabetes, stroke and heart disease. And loneliness can be as harmful as smoking 15 cigarettes per day. Yeah. When I worked at the hospital, I would do these clinics for elderly and it would be to do with them not eating.

And it was so interesting. The underweight people that used to come in in the elderly clinics would be like 80% men and only 20% women because they talk about how, especially for men, they're eating habits, the way that they connect to people, if they're not having that interaction and if their partners passed away or whatever, they lose the will to do much else in their life. And so it was really interesting seeing how 80% of those people that were coming in and out of all the state were people who were lonely, spend most of the time in their home. And even when it came to dementia, it says being in a community or feeling a sense of purpose in your life, whether it is within a community or whether it is with your partner who completely changes the trajectory of your, the progression of dementia and your longevity and the feeling of being wanted and needed in this world is so important to help keep your mental state alive.

And so for men, especially, I think there's a, I've seen so many older women who were able to get back up faster once their partners died, but I think naturally, for a man, from what I've seen, it ends up being a lot more difficult. So I think that's another reason why having friends is so important. Don't think about it for now. You have to think about it for your future of when you are in a situation where maybe you have to be alone or away from your partner.

Do I have people that I'm going to be able to turn to in those moments because that's what you're supposed to be there for? Yeah. And the research shows that men are happier when they're married, but women are unhappy when they're married. Really?

Yeah. Or at least I think the actual study says that men live longer when they're married and women don't live as long when they're married. I've seen that. They're going to carry on more stress.

Yeah. And men are actually helped by the marriage. You notice that when people lose their partners at a young age or even at an old age, men struggle so much more than women do. Women are just used to going through the pain.

They also are used to most of the systems and the things that they have to do in the house. Like they're able to adapt faster whereas they think for men that's really difficult. Yeah. This one was really interesting.

There's this Jeffrey Hall, a professor of communication studies at the University of Kansas who studies friendships. He previously found it can take 200 hours to make a close friend. 200 hours. And he talks about how men rely on their wives to develop the social calendar.

Interesting. So they do it and I don't have to do it. And he says that there's a challenge in their skill set. So it's the idea that women plan the social calendar and men just tag along to whatever the women plan.

And so they don't ever think about, well, I need to find a man. I need to do this. I need to do that. My wife's kind of plan the weekend.

We'll just do whatever she says. I really spend that much time on that. You're so good at planning your social calendar. Yeah.

But you really had to work at it. Yeah. You really had to make a point of saying, two days we're going to meet friends. I'm going to catch up with this.

I feel like you've got a good system in place of these are the friends I need to catch up with once a month. I'm going to do this with this person. Once a week, I'm going to meet this person. And it's because you've really learned how to create that cycle and system to make sure that you do connect.

Yeah. That's why I like to think about their life. Like think about everything mathematically and everything becomes simpler. Right.

You make it about, you know, how you're feeling on that day, it will just, you know, there's times like yesterday before they didn't, I was so close to canceling because I was a bit tired. Yeah. So glad I didn't. And that's where systems help.

And so it's like, who do you want to see once a week? Who do you want to see once a month? Who do you want to see once a quarter? And who do you want to see once a year?

If you have a list of the people in those buckets, it becomes really, really simple. So I'm with you every day, whenever we're in the same country, we're together every day, which is awesome. And then there's friends. I'm like, okay, I'm going to see you once or twice a week.

I'm going to see you. And that allows me to simplify my life. And now it's not random. And then I don't go three months ago.

I'm like, I love seeing them. It's like, well, no, just have it in the system. And I don't have to feel that way. And so I'm just allowing myself to be more effective with friendships.

And people think that that might be business-like or transactional. Actually, that's what love and respect actually is where it's like, I respect you enough. You're in the calendar. I want to see you every month.

And it allows us to deepen our friendship. And then at the end of the year, we get to think about all the amazing memories we make. I think what we all have to realize is that friendship is a learned skill. Yeah.

And it's not something you're born with. And so we almost assume that people should know how to be a good friend. We assume people should know how to be a good partner. We assume someone should know how to be a good parent.

And the reality is all of those skills are learned. And so for me, as a man, if you're listening to this right now and you're feeling lonely, I want you to know that there are other men out there that feel lonely, which means that you actually have the opportunity to become community for each other. And that truly starts with you having the courage to share something vulnerability openly, honestly, and seeing who matches that frequency. And it's as simple as that is not everyone's going to match your frequency.

Someone might joke with you. Someone might laugh at you. Someone might just play it off. That's okay.

Because chances on five to ten years time, they may come back to you and say, I'm sorry, I did that. I'm going through something right now. But for now, they aren't that person. That doesn't mean they're bad.

It doesn't mean you reject them. Just go find the people that you want to connect with. How have you seen men in your life, apart from me, struggle or do well in friendships? What has worked for them and what has not worked for them?

I think sometimes, well, especially in our community, men have a lot of family members that they can like socialize with. But I have noticed as time goes on, you know, I think about my dad. And I remember he used to have like a huge social life when he was younger. And then as he's gotten older, that pool has definitely gotten smaller and smaller.

He, I randomly walk into his office while I randomly walk into the room and he's having a conversation with his best friend, Michael, who he's known since he was at university. And they're talking about things, whether it's through their physical health or, you know, here and there. But they'll still have these once a month catch up conversations. He doesn't really see them.

They don't go out necessarily. They don't go out and have a meal together. But he has these two or three people who I know he is speaking to. There's like, Andrea's like, Michael, there's one other person.

I know that he has these people that will check in on him and that he's checking in on. And so I think friendships also change as time goes on. They don't have to look the same way. You don't have to be going out.

I don't want to keep saying the pub. Yeah, that's okay. You don't have to keep going out to the pub to meet your friends. But you know that those people are still available to you.

And so I think what you were saying is, can you make that call? I know my dad seems like, I always wonder, oh, my dad's got friends and he's going out and about, but actually he's got those people he can call. And I think that's something that's built over time, university. And he's in his 70s, 70s now.

And he's kept that connection from that point. He knows every time I struggle with anything or he thinks he needs something, he calls them. And he knows that they've got the advice or they've got the ability to help him. And I think that has been, again, it's a learnt skill.

It's been built, learnt and built over since he was 20 years old till 70. And that takes work. That takes the phone calls every week. The checking in every month, showing up when something's happened in their life.

And so I think it takes a lot more effort than just this book at tennis court. Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for listening, everyone.

Drop in the comments. How you've been creating great friendships, what you're struggling with. You'll even connect with people in the comments section, which we'd love to see. And make sure you tag me on Instagram and TikTok me and Radi on what's resonated with you, what you're trying and the great friendships that come from this.

So thank you for listening. Hey, everyone. If you love that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Laurie Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation.

If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue and actually calm your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely.