This is New York Bay's Drummer, who's a South Hadley, Massachusetts native Joe comes from a musical family, and these parts have been one of the most in-demand figures at the drums for, well, close to 30 years now on the New York scene. Joe has a new release, it's one of only a handful or so that Joe has made as a leader, but this one is a beauty. It's called Time to Swing, and it's on Smoke Sessions Records, and it features Wynton Marsalis, who only rarely makes appearances as a side man. Kenny Baron, the great pianist we might think of as the Dean of Jan's Piano, and the great Peter Washington on bass, and Joe's recording has garnered a lot of attention and nice review in Jan's Times Magazine, and in addition to the great music on the album, it features a brilliant line of note essay by the veteran drummer Billy Hart, whose credits include Otis Redding and Salmon Dave, and just about every major name in Jan's over the past 40 years.
So Joe, it's a pleasure to welcome you to Jan's Auto Mode, and to offer you just a simple congratulations on this beautiful achievement in Time to Swing. Well, thank you, Tom, for having me. I feel like this is the epic apex of my career, it's finally done to your show, so I'm very happy. Well, Joe, it's a pleasure to have you with us today, and tell us just a little bit about your own background here, having grown up in the Connecticut River Valley, and the musical family that you come from.
Well, I grew up in South Valley, Massachusetts, and our house is still there, my parents are still alive and well, and my father is still teaching privately lessons, and he gave us the great gift of music, he's a musician and a band director, and I have four older brothers, David, he's the original drummer at John, a trombone saxophone player, Paul, he's the place in drums, and I go to James. We had three bedrooms up there, I grew up with my brother David, and he's a drummer, he had a beautiful set of lug wigs, beautiful zilgens, and he would walk up to center school, and he'd point at me, and he'd say, don't touch my drums, and right when I see him walking down the street, just jump on the drums and put on either buddy rich or sunny pain. I just had the best day all day, just playing time, blasting the record through a big block of rock speaker. That was like, oh, why we had that, I don't know, but you can hear it up the hill, and I would just play all day along with the, especially those two guys, and my brother John was in his room practicing trombone, JJ Johnson, and John Coltrane, and so I'd go in that room and hang out for a little bit if he was doing it, and my brother changed, he was a mad transcriber, and he ended up playing with Ray Charles, he would transcribe, Sonny Stitt, what's the eternal triangle, Sonny Stitt and Sonny Rollins, he had it all down, no for no, and so I'd go in that room.
So the time I had a little mini 50 second street, and I was actually 23 have these streets, so I was just hanging out all night at these clubs, and that was it, that's how it started. Beautiful, Joe, beautiful, and Sonny Payne of course means you will listen into the Count Basie band, right? Oh, Tom, you know it. To this day, people asked me what are you listening to today, Sonny Payne, if I could have seen one person, I mean I have to say K Clark's pleasure, but Sonny Payne, at Birdland, that would be what I'd want to see, that would be the one thing, without a doubt.
Now, on the pocket, Johnny's talking, it's a classic. Yes, sir, yes, sir. Sonny Payne with Basie, you got into, now you're talking about being a real young kid, jumping on your brother David's drums, and digging on Sonny Payne and Buddy Rich, your father, is I understand it connected you with Alan Dawson and Boston for lessons when you were very young. Yes, we moved for two years to Indonesia, and my parents thought over there, and so I was the only one that went, and we stopped off in Tokyo, and of course there was records there for some reason you couldn't get anywhere else.
And this is long before the internet, long before all this stuff, or you just order things, or you know, and so my brothers had me pick up something that John Colshain live in Tokyo, and I also didn't listen to weather report this time, and I bought a record there, the record I was looking to pay 30s, but more commercial than earlier stuff, but great record. And I bought a record called Well Report Live in Tokyo, which is one of their first records, probably 71, something around there, and I loved it, and so when I went back through Tokyo, I bought Miles Davis in Tokyo. Thinking in my eighth grade mind, I would sound like Well Report because it was live in Tokyo, but when I put it on, I heard this drummer which I'd never heard before, I could leave it, it was Tony Williams, and it changed my whole life. And then of course, one of the great things about records and seeing liner notes and the personnel, you say, oh, that's Tony Williams, but then now you're on a journey to discover where else he played, what other records he played with, who he played with, just the other guy.
Who he played with, Jack McLean, and blah blah blah, and I found out that he studied with Alan Dawson, and who was alive and well teaching at Boston, so that was the connection. It was really Miles Davis live in Tokyo, that got started. Yeah, wow, what a great story, dynamite story from live in Tokyo, and that's the Miles band that had Sam Rivers on it for a minute, another boss. I remember correctly.
So you got back home, and you're in the eighth or ninth grade by this time, and connecting with Alan Dawson on your own? Yes, well, we got a number, and we started out there probably in 84, my sophomore year of high school, and so we did that for two or three years before I went off to college. So your dad was driving you down the mass pipe once a week or something like that? One's every two weeks, yes, and I can tell you the lessons were unbelievable, I still have tapes of them, and it was amazing that he, I guess he probably had ten lessons a day, and it was strict ten o'clock to another clock, it wasn't ten o' five, it was you get down there, and it was no like, hey Joe, how was your day today?
Now I'm young, so maybe it should be different later, say someone in college, but just from my perspective, there was no sort of personal like, hey, wow, how you feeling about this? It was just here's his lesson, and we would sit almost knee to knee with a pad between us, and we'd go through the true limits of what he assigned me, and then we'd go to the next thing, which was the Ted Reed Figgipation book. And if I did well, I could get over to the drum set, which was like, I look like a candy somewhere there, and I would say I did well probably three times on it for years to get on the drum set. No kidding, wow.
So, like I was talking to Gene Jackson the other day, I wish I was a better student from that one doctor, but now I am, because I remember exactly what he said today. Now Ellen Dawson, was Ellen teaching at Berkeley as well? Not at this point, it was strictly from his house. Wow, was he in Lexington?
Yes. And of course, Ellen, we know sort of best in the jazz world for his work with Booker Irvin, and Jackie Beyer, and later on with Barry Harris and others, and I think it was Don Schlitten who liked to bring in Ellen Dawson on sessions he made for Prestige, and cobblestone and labels like that, but not a household name necessarily in the jazz world, but certainly, I mean, I'm a musician, it's one of the most esteemed drummers and a master and obviously a good taskmaster for you. Definitely, I think he had a calling of teaching, and doing that and spent a lot of time at Boston, I mean, well, I probably rushed his life there. So maybe it wasn't like one of the in guys, like, they are blinking and they are shitting or something, but everyone knew of them.
And you can see them on YouTube with Sonny Ball, and like you said, Booker Irvin, Jackie Beyer, and that's what it looks like. I guess a lot of people that weren't through Boston were to use them, and I was glad to know that when they did the 100 gold fingers that Harold Maberen started, was within the rhythm section would have been, well, there's 10 piano players, and the bass was Bob Cranchon and Allen Dawson, and he loved Harold and him with only a wake up like a five in the morning over in Japan, and going these brisk hour long walks, and he said Harold was the fastest walker in the world. We said Allen would keep up with him, so let's do it on a friendship. So that made it was good for me to hear that sort of thing.
Well, you went from South Hadley to where was it? William Patterson or the New York area? Yes, so what's William Patterson College under the direction of Rufus Reed? The bassist Rufus Reed.
And that's what we bet the great Harold Maberen is. Oh, yes. And that was the main, he was the guy. Harold, in the times that I saw him, always seemed to have a real gift of mentorship of being sort of the presiding patriarchal figure on the bandstand who was giving a huge amount of love and support to the players.
Of course, you were among them in Eric Alexander and others whom I would see with Harold Maberen. Was he like that in the classroom too? Tom, I kept telling these people like, later in life, like anyone that had a jazz college or like that you should have Harold Maberen, as much as he loves playing, he loved passing on the knowledge of other people. So if you did a jazz clinic in Stanford or he went down to University of Central Florida, you couldn't stop him from talking.
So like, okay, so the bass across is 10, 11, 30, and so 11, 30 is done. And now he's just getting started. And now, so then after the class he's out the hallway singing the melodies of Dahu or pick yourself up and show the kids how he could sing and key. But then he's going to sing John Coltrane solo on Blue train.
And then he talked about teaching Phineas Newborn about Dahu, you know, and it's just, it wouldn't stop. Let's think about him is that, and we do this all over the world. Let's say we went to Ronnie Scott's where it said it's only 45 minutes. He could, yes.
He could talk about Phineas Newborn or Amajumal for 25 minutes. Because it was all about other people. And when I miss about most one of the things is that he brought us back to like 1955, you know, like I felt like I was there. You know, when it hang out late at night, he said he'd do a gig in Chicago and play from 8 to 12.
And then he'd go on to see Amajumal's last step and 1 to 2. And then it was a late night session from 4. No, it was even late night, I guess, they'd call it 4 to 7. And then, and then they'd have the waffle set from 10 to 1.
And I was like, how's that possible? I was like, when did you sleep? Boy, I'm telling you, we didn't sleep. But you had to have slept somebody.
Boy, listen to me. We didn't sleep. And it was just, but he put you right there. It's amazing that, you know, I'm missing terribly.
And you know, I have to say, you know, the whole NEA thing is it bothered me. It didn't bother him. He said he did bother him. The jazz master thing that he wasn't after.
Forget about the millions of records gone. The amount of love he gave the students around the world. I mean, he wasn't acknowledged as a NEA jazz master. I mean, he was acknowledged as a master amongst the musicians and guys like you.
But I mean, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know if I'm starting to mistake. I've noticed, Joe, that over the past few months, maybe the COVID, you know, lockdown has inspired you a bit, but you've been writing posts on ice cream. I see them on Facebook mostly, but some beautiful, powerful, really swinging recollections of your own about Harold Mayburn and others.
And so I just want to go back and call a couple of names that have really stood out in what you've said lately. One is the tenor sax one is Junior Cook. Tell us a little bit about him. Well, at the gig at Augie's, which was the same billionth smoke.
It used to be Broadway. Upper West Side. So it's smoke jazz called used to be Augie. And Jesse Davis played there first.
Great Jesse Davis. And it didn't take anything. He just passed the hat. And so he left and I happened to be standing right there and he says, you take over.
And so I was playing there and immediately it gave me opportunities. I want to start playing with some of the greats. And just Junior was the guy. And I went down to Sweet Basil to see him.
He was a special guest with Matt Adley. And I asked him to play. And he came up there the next week. I'm playing there every Friday and Saturday night.
And he came up next week and played on a Mr. Night. And then he packed up his horn and left. I said, well, I guess that didn't go well.
He called me off. He says, what time is it's set tomorrow? I said 10, 12, and 2. He says, OK, I'll see you at midnight.
He never made the first set. And then he started to come in there. And immediately we went from like a single A-ball to the Major Leaks. And one fell swoop.
This guy by A, these guys from college, we just moved to New York. And with him there, he was the original good shepherd, the person that directed us out of this wilderness and darkness. And he brought us into this, he showed us this like that. I mean, I didn't know existed.
You can hear him on horse silver records. But when you see him live and actually talk to him and he's telling you to play, say there's five horn players up there with him and we're playing on a Misty Knight, Todd D'Amron. And he says, OK, far enough, I want you to play a two beat deal for the first two choruses of each soloist. And we're like, you know, talk about patience and like arranging and all this stuff that you learned from chorus.
He was telling us he was showing us what he learned. And that was the first, well, I shouldn't say the first, but that was a tremendous lesson. He would sit and talk to us during the breaks. But amazing mentor, amazing.
And then since he was there, since it was like a college dive bar, because junior was there, guys like Donald Byrd are Taylor, the great Joe Harris from Pittsburgh, they would come in and there's dive bar to see him play and then and barely to see us play. And it gave a stamp of approval because he was there. If he wasn't there, those guys wouldn't be there. Right.
Now, when you first introduced yourself to Junior, then at Sweet Basil, did he know who you were? Not at all. Nothing. So he came up kind of like on your good word to Augie's all the way up town to sit in.
Yes. And I have to tell you the story before I forget. He introduced me to Fiskel Payne. So now there's two generations of players right there, Junior Cook and the great Cecil Payne, who was the original Bebop baritone player with Dizzy Blaustrey.
Sure. And Tom, I saw the greatest thing I ever saw in music outside of maybe the first night I saw in my hands. I was down at Condens and Junior Cook got a group there with Connie K, Percy Heath and the great Hugh Lawson on piano, Troy. And Cecil Payne was a special guest.
Now you think Junior, Cecil Payne must have been, I'm guessing, 18 years old in Junior probably? Yeah. So different generations. So it was just nice to see that.
Cecil was a little older and couldn't see very well, but Junior played his stuff. And after his solo, Cecil stayed off the side and Junior reached over and grabbed Cecil's shoulder and led him to the mic. But this beautiful smile, they're both beautiful smiles. It's just struck me so hard that I love that he had for Cecil Payne.
And I would never have known that growing up in college. You don't feel sort of things. You're just practicing. Well, I saw that with the love of another musician and the respect and reverence he had for Cecil.
That was the greatest thing I ever saw on the bandstand. And there you're talking about the early to mid 1990s, right? This was the 91, yeah, 92. Because I, one of the first times I saw you was up here when you and Eric Alexander came up with Cecil on the band.
And I think Mabes was with you too. I'm not certain of that. And then you know, you mentioned going from single eight of the majors with Junior sitting in with you at Auggies. And it brings to mind that the last time I remember seeing Junior Cook was October 1st of 88.
It was game one of the World Series with Ecker's Lee on the Mount against Kirk Gibson, one of the most famous walk off home runs in baseball history. In fact, Ecker's Lee coined the term walk off to describe that at home run. And I was over at the network in Mason Square in Springfield where Junior Cook and Mickey Tucker had come up and they were there with Paul Brown and Steven Craven. And I was hanging that night.
And we were kind of dividing our time between the bandstand and the little bar with the TV set. So we caught the greatest jazz imaginable and also that unforgettable home run. Paul, there's a great story right there. That's amazing.
Yeah. Now, and that beautiful story you just related about Junior and Cecil Payne is something that I really feel is kind of like your music and your vibe is imbued with that love. And it's one of the things that I think is coming through in these what you've been writing on Facebook this summer and of course what is coming through on the album Time to Swing. Why don't you tell us just a little bit more of what has it like.
You told a story recently about Lou Donaldson and how you knew whether or not you were passing the grade with Sweet Lou. Well, Sweet Lou, I owe a lot to Sweet Lou because Sweet Lou brought me to Chicago where I met the mother of my three children. So it's good to him. That's how it works, Tom.
It's never about yourself. It's about you know, people that take you places and as I'm getting older and obviously COVID slows you down. You can reflect on these things and just how important a little phone call like that is. So, pop a little, you know, when you get to New York, he's one of those guys you have to seek out because he's a true New Yorker and it was just no BS in playing.
And there was no, he never played a corny note or he never played a corny tune. People would be chapping their fingers and it's like, that's the guy you want to hang out with. That's the guy you want to be around. And unfortunately, I just, when you're around with someone so much, you know, maybe his drummer, a fool who couldn't make it.
So he's an A, a foreign, because he's featured there. He'd come to Chicago and I went and met the mother of my children there and I just remember walking down the street with him and I was like, I was like, I was playing, you know, I thought I'd do a pretty good dance. I was playing with Lou Donald since Chicago. It was like, they say, hey man, you got to learn how to play some fun.
I was like, okay, I said, also man, you got to get that time a little better man. It's not playing what I'm playing. They said, just mind your own business and swing, man. You're giving me a bad pack.
Wow. I certainly don't want to give you a bad back. So, you know, I just, I just, I just tried to play. If you had lessons that they would give you man, that just like one, three little words or it was not their parcel.
And then, but it stayed with you, you know. Sure. I mean, you're right. I was going to say you already kind of have the validation of being on the bandstand with them.
So those words of advice or what they really need from you must mean, must mean the world. Yeah. Well, Ruth is really tall. That's a sucker to be said, it's easy to get a gig, but very hard to keep it.
And I was thinking about a funny thing about Cecil Payne before the one, when, when Junior got me on the, they have jazz, well, Beelza and the jazz will be able to, a truck that goes around different neighborhoods and plays music free. And I think Billy Taylor from our parents started this, Dave Bailey was a big guy, the drummer, and so we had one in Brooklyn and with Junior Cook and Cecil Payne was this, now this is my first intro to Cecil Payne. And I can't believe I'm going to go play the Cecil Payne. I didn't listen to him with Dizzy Glushy's band and how many jazz patterns with our Taylor, the Duke Jordan record and so many records.
And so he was the first guy there. It was a holy cow. He looked like a, it just, it just seemed like a, it just seemed like a, it's a, it's a big, it just seems like a, I couldn't, I like an angel or something. It just seems so big and like there's a club on him.
And I'm in Brooklyn first off that I never left Manhattan. So this, and I went up to law Mr. Payne, my name is Joe Foreignsworth, I'm not supposed to say that word or something. Like, you're a photographer.
I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm like, what do you say? I'm like, I'll be like, back away, back away, don't let him get mad at you. So, so then we set up the drums and we're playing the tune. And then he looks at Junior and looks at behind about these.
He's smiling. He says, damn, he sounds good for a photographer. I like that one. Yeah.
Yeah. And then the other jazz will be on the street, you know, the culture with the trucks and I don't know where it was. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I caught jazz mobility at times in Harlem, 135th Street, that area, sometimes on the street, sometimes in a PS in Harlem.
But yeah, Billy Taylor and others got that off the ground back in the 60s. And it's cool that you connected with it. Let's see some pain. Joe, there's so much that your career has connected with and encompassed.
It's just extraordinary. And it's, you know, it's a point of pride for us here in this area to know that Hadley Joe is a great master's today. And so in demand and all of that, tell me a little bit about One For All, which is a collective ensemble of players of your generation, your age group, your peers and how they got off the ground and where it stands today. Oh, yeah.
Easy. I went to what we've had in college in 1986, 87, Eric Alexander arrived from after a year at University of Indiana. And he was amazing as Harold Baborson. And he plus, and he plus, plus, plus, too.
So he was playing, he was one of those guys that came out of Florence. And so we immediately had a friendship and moved to New York together. So we're playing together. And then, you know, Augie's opened up and we had a friend, Jim Rottani, the trumpet player.
He went to school at North Texas State with my brother, James. And James was always talking about him. This is back probably 84, 85, 84, 85. James went to North Texas State and was raving about the trumpet player.
So then I put those two together and they immediately clicked. And Jim would come out to, like, William Patterson play, like, $5 gigs of Paris and New Jersey at the Castle Montego every Thursday night. And then you get to New York, we're playing. And then I did it, I bet this trombone player from the University of Hearts and Antoine Brody, the saxophone player, was talking about this trombone player.
We went down to see him with our Blakey and it was at Sweet Basil's. It was Steve Davis. And, you know, same thing we love baseball. We had the same sort of feelings about stuff.
He loved JJ Johnson and of course, Jackie, the playing and being from the same neighborhood. And so I said, hey, why should we have these little gigs? Why should we come down and play with them? So now I got him in there and the three of them was like a magical front line.
They sounded beautiful together. And so we just played gigs up there. There was no piano. And so we needed to take that next step and we were thinking about piano players.
And I had a gig with Brian Lynch once, one of my first gigs. And David Hazeletine was playing with them. David Hazeletine and Lynch grew up in Milwaukee. So then I said, Eric, let's do a gig with this guy.
It seems kind of cool. And we did a gig and said, that's a guy. And Dave brought a lot, you know, with Dave maturity to the group. He was pretty young and restless.
And he brought a very keen sense of arranging things. So it was a really great match. And we did a lot of record days. It was hard to get gigs.
It was six of us. And, but we just, you know, since we're all friends, it's always going to be there. So right now it's kind of, I'm in state's door map. But it's just, you know, a lot of people are trying to kind of mind.
So you might get Eric Alexander to come as a solo or use a local remissection. Or they might get me and Eric or something. Or Dave might do it. It's hard to get all six together because it's no more like a flight flop.
But we're, you know, we remain great friends. So it's always going to be there. You bring me back to my own memory. I introduced you guys at Newport about two or three years ago.
Right. And I think it was somebody on the band's birthday. Rotunda, you know, I think it was Eric's birthday. Does he have an August birthday?
Yeah. Yeah. That was a great gig. You brought me in.
You made me introduce you guys with Lynch at Augie's way back in the day. Yeah. Back in the 90s sometime. But now, Joe, you were on winter, Marcellus is on on time to swing, which I have to say, you know, there's no small achievement to have written on your band.
But I first heard you on Wynton's band years ago on a great record called Live at the House of Tribes. That's still one of my favorite Marcellus albums. It's just a great blowing date. Is that where you began an association with Wynton?
Yes. Funny enough, before that, I did a ton. I can't tell you why. I did like the auditions for Juilliard, like I was in the trio where, and I brought these two guys.
I used to do Clemens and piano player and Richard Clemens. Oh, do Clemens are bass player Richard Clemens is a piano player. I can't tell you why they hired me. I can't even tell you why I hired these guys.
But we went over there and that was my very first introduction to all. And that was a gig at Juilliard where you were like a trio that accompanied auditioning students. Yeah. That's the first time facing him.
And then a baby a year later, he called me up and said, hey, man, you want to make this gig at the house of Tribes? It's like there was a benefit for the club. The house of Tribes is in the East Village somewhere. And he plays there once or twice a year to raise money.
And I think there's like artists and poetry and paintings there. There's beautiful little, I'm not a club or whatever. It's the house of Tribes, I guess. But funny was that he said he wanted Charlie Rose the next night.
And he was telling the story. So tell me about house of Tribes and the play. And he said, yeah, I got this new drummer. I really like the reason why I hired him because everyone said he couldn't play Bulldog.
And so everyone was saying that to me. So I knew that he must be able to play. And so he hired because that very recent. And I showed up there and wear my suit and it was an immediate connection.
And that is it. People love that record. It's a great record. I would do it the other thing.
We got to hit house of Tribes part two. But that's not what happened. Well, I guess this is kind of house of Tribes time of swing. Well, house of Tribes has got Charlie Parker.
I think there's Donna Lee and Monk and Green Chimneys and just friends. It's a real blowing session. But it concludes with Second Line, the New Orleans style. What's it like to play New Orleans style for a minute?
Tom, I wish I could do it better. It's one of those things where people say sometimes when you play that, when you're not from there, it's called like third line. It's not really in the trenches. And so I shy away from it because there's people that really do it.
And the only thing I could think about or I try to think about as far as we go, is E.D.S. Muhammad, the drummer from down there, who I met with Lou Donaldson at the Vanguard. He sat next to me. And he talked to me about when he was a kid playing in the marching band, or like funerals, possessions.
And he was a bass drummer. And he said everything starts with a bass drum. And so, and you play the drums from the bottom up. So that's how I would think of him when I do something like that.
You mentioned the third line thing. You're reminding me of when I would try to interest Wynton in going to a restaurant up in this area to eat Creole and Cajun food and say, no, no, no, man. I don't touch that stuff outside of home. Yeah, well Tom, you told it better than I could tell.
That's very true. But, you know, like, ever since then, you know, the way he plays the trumpet, the attacking and the phrasing is just how I like to play the cymbal. It's like a section there. It's always with that connection.
And he won his way. And it wasn't until he hired me a couple of things for the big band that played the music at Bunk. And I thought it would be so much easier. I think, wow, cologne is small.
Cown Hall, our tailor on drums. Our tailor did a very well. And he even talked about that record. He was a little nervous.
And Bunk is like, just swing, man. I'm like, okay, I'm going to be inspired by the ghost of A.T. And this Bunk music was way different than that. They were like, all range bodies, young guys, that had the kitchen sink in there.
Well, the nervous wreck, man. And then, well, we did three nights. And then he got me on this movie, the motherless Brooklyn. Oh, yeah.
We did the soundtrack for that movie. And I was actually in the movie with Jerry Walden, Russell Hall, and I, and we were like, right in the middle of the movie. So, I mean, it was a beast, Jimmy, that thing. That was great.
So as we were doing some premier parties, we were just playing one or two tunes. I've always had this chip in my, I was holding on to it. I was like, I want to make a record day. I want to make a record day.
I've been waiting like 20 years for the right time. I want to make a record date with Tim. It's the only thing I want to do. I don't record anything else.
And I just waited, waited, waited, waited. And so the right moment after the party, we're walking back and saying, hey man, can you make a record date with me? He says, I'll do anything for you. And then now I just need to find a record company to do it.
But I waited a long time for that. And I didn't want to record just anything. I wanted to record him. If he would have said no, I didn't want to record him.
I wouldn't have recorded. But I didn't want to record anything. It's amazing how things happen. And you know, while yourself, I was making these videos about jazz masters and I started with Billy Higgins and I went to Harold Mayburn.
And then I went to Max Roach, Roy Haynes, Art Taylor. And so I'm doing, and so the more I get involved in it, the more I'm calling people. Man, can you believe that because of this code itself, I was able to talk to people I'd never met before, like Steve Gadd, and all sorts of people. Roy McCurdy, who I kind of do.
There's a bunch of great conversations. Then for the Jimmy Combs, Max Roach, I'm sorry. I said I've got to call Billy Hart. Who I've known for many years, but we're not closest to friends.
And I call him up and I was immediately struck by the way he spoke about music is the way he plays the drums. And it's its own entity. It's not the same line as other things like, oh, Art Taylor's up like a very unique way. He plays drums that way.
I was struck by his perspective on the drums and what he's seen with his own eyes. Like playing a drum battle with Alfos and Fleejo Jones, Billy did in the late 60s with Max Roach and Papa Jones as MC. But the way he described it, and so when I had my line on it, and they were talking about it, I said Billy Hart. It was just immediately someone I knew, someone I know about the music, and someone that had a great perspective.
I mean, what would be better than Billy Hart doing your line on it? No, it's a master stroke. And if I was teaching a jazz history class today, I think I would begin by having the students read that line on it. I mean, it's the closest feel I've had in a long time to what I would call jazz truth or jazz philosophy in a way.
And Hart even calls you a philosopher of rhythm. So I don't mean to put you on the spot, but if you could tell us just a little bit more about what your philosophy might be of the music of life, of rhythm, it would be a nice way to kind of wrap up this very nice conversation. Well, I go back to one of my first gigs with Junior Cook, I'll book, and Mickey Tucker was there, and we're playing it back then. I just started playing with Benny Goulton.
I would ask you guys, what can I do? What can I do? What should I do? Two hours, two hours, two hours, a rush, eight, and a dot, and then stop bugging me.
Stop bugging me. Stop bugging me. And then one set, we just got done with Junior Cook. And the jukebox comes on, it's Miles Davis walking, but the one was Kenny Clark and J.J.
Johnson. And Junior comes over to me, and he always wears sunglasses, and he never took sunglasses, but got sunglasses. So that's what I want. That's all any of us want.
It was the time that Kenny Clark was playing on the symbol. It was to play the symbol that helped support other people and play good. You know, it supports them. Harold Maberen says, don't play with me.
Play for me. You know, and like to wrap it up, I guess the time the swing comes from what like, it's like ten minutes before the gig, and you're in the back room. And I equated to like, you know, when the Chicago Bulls came out through the introductions, and that's fair. So you get really revved up.
Well, I get revved up right before you play. And you know, Harold Maberen was like, all right, man, let's swing hard now. And then George told me, come on boys, it's time to hit. It's time to hit.
And then I went with myself. We were about to play. It's time to swing. Enough, enough talking.
Kind of swing. And that feeling of going up there and swinging with other people, unselfishly. And trying to make it feel good. And I always go back to that my own Davis walking at Jacob.
Oh, yeah. So beautiful. I could be like Ernie Bank with play two. We could talk for four hours, man.
I hear you, Joe. And let's do it again. Let's do it again. But for now, I'm going to say it's just time to move on.
But what a beautiful way to kind of summarize time, support, and feel good. Yeah. Rhythm philosopher. So, and I love the baseball illusions too, Joe, of course.
But so thanks. Congratulations on time to swing. And let's keep in touch. Well, Tom, I talked about the good shepherds.
The people are out there doing great things and helping others. And you've been doing that for many years. My family loves you. I love you.
I love you. People down here and up there. I love you. You're a godsend for music up there.
So God bless you. Thank you so much, Joe. Okay. Good day to you, brother.
Thank you, Tom. You bet. Ciao.