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Hello everybody and welcome back to new books and biblical studies, the podcast channel on the new books network. I'm Jonathan Wooker, the host of the channel. Today we'll be talking to Janine Hanger about her new book, Sensing Salvation in the Gospel of John, the Embodied Sensory Qualities of Participation in the I Am Sing's. Janine, welcome to the show.
Thank you, thanks for having me. Yeah, well, thanks so much for being on the podcast today. And thank you for being willing to talk about your book, Sensing Salvation in the Gospel of John. I guess before we talk about what you've written, can you start by telling us just a little bit about yourself?
Sure, yeah. Well, I'm based out in Southern California and grew up kind of California native, always lived here, but kind of got interested. I really think I kind of fell into this world of biblical studies. I wasn't, wasn't the plan that I had for my life.
My husband and I were in doing college campus ministry shortly after we graduated our undergrad. We met at UC Santa Barbara and he had detected this kind of a calling to go into pastoral ministry. And so we moved down to Southern California to go to Talbot School of Theology. And I took a class on a Saturday to have something to talk about him, talk about with him and theology class.
And as soon as I took that first class, I thought, oh my goodness, I need to get a whole degree. I just fell in love with just learning about just anything I could, anything, any class I could take. I was willing to do so. Yeah, we did.
We walked through a seminary together and then after that, I was just not done. I think I, I think during that time had really discerned that teaching was something, a direction I wanted to go in. And so began to just walk that path by then we had built our family a little bit. So there was some little kids home to take care of.
And so it's been kind of a slow path for me, but I was able to complete my PhD studies in 2020. And I've been teaching all along kind of adjunct now in full time, but it's been kind of a long and winding road, but it's been really fun. So, yeah, it's fantastic. Yeah, and it sounds like maybe learning about the local studies is infectious almost.
Yes. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Fantastic. Yeah.
I know this book grew out of the PhD studies that you mentioned. How did you come to be interested in researching John's gospel? Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I did some master level work in the gospels.
I actually focused on Matthew, but I really have always loved the gospels. And concurrently with that, I had kind of a personal interest in the concept of union or participation with Christ. And so I was kind of searching for what could be something to spend some time doing doctoral level work. And I read Constantine Campbell's work, Paul and Union with Christ.
I think that's the title. And at the end of the book, he says, for research, so much looking to go up with the gospel, John. So I thought, well, I'm going to check it out. So I started reading around that idea and also picked up Grand MacAskel's Union with Christ in the New Testament and put together a proposal and ended up being accepted at the University of Aberdeen, working with Grand MacAskel.
And so it was actually his suggestion. I mean, by then I was kind of solidified like gospel, John was my focus. And he was the one who actually suggested looking into the IM saying. So that was really how this project came to fruition.
It's really nice. Yeah, it is interesting how these projects tend to come together with both the authors creativity with your creativity, but then also with other voices and inputs coming into that as well. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Fantastic.
Fantastic. Well, as the title of your book and also this what you just said indicates, you're thinking about the censors and IM saying, any draw upon. Recent scholarship on the senses. Can you tell us a little bit about sensory anthropology and how do the senses play a role in memory?
Yeah, yeah, I was really fun to happen upon sensory anthropology. I was looking at the sensory elements involved in the IM saying and started looking into the senses and found that sensory anthropology really uncovers this idea that we frequently in kind of our like modern Western society we draw upon. But we kind of think that there is this universal sensorial that everybody shares consisting of five senses sight hearing smell taste touch and we kind of think that oh well that it must be biological and therefore it's universal and what was uncovered and sensory anthropology is really a multidisciplinary effort. I had some of the names I Paul Stoller anthropologists wrote the taste of ethnographic things and he was the one who did some work with the song a people of Niger and where he discovered that taste and smell and hearing in their context was often more important to them in sight.
And we live in a very site dominant context where site really kind of prevails over those those other senses and so other examples that come up are you know different like some cultures there's a culture in the South Pacific Islands where they order their world by smell. And so when they want to refer to me they point to their nose. Right so it's like a just just different cultural values around the senses and even how they count them so there's a group of people in Nigeria where sight is one sense and then they have a term that covers all the rest of them. Right so there's just different ways of counting them there's different ways of valuing them and then there's sometimes where different senses rise to the surface is being more important.
And so because of that all these scholars from these different disciplines have kind of come together to look at the senses in all these different contexts and so you have anthropologists and cultural historians and even like scientists and you know it's just a whole bunch of a range of disciplines that are that are contributing to sensory anthropology so that was a really really fun discovery and to then to think about, you know, how when you think about sensory language in a gospel, you know you have to think about it in terms of like how would the original like how would John's readers have thought of taste or how they have taught what kind of tastes would they experience and how valuable were the tastes to them compared to how we value taste and site and all the different senses and just thinking through well there's a lot of diversity that could be explored. And so that's really how. And I think you asked about sensory memory. That was interesting to me because her senses are often tied to memory.
And so there was one person who wrote a chapter that she talked about memory. Her name is escaping me right now. But just thinking about how, you know, we, you think about like we all have memories of certain tastes, right, that hold value. So if there's a holiday that you love and there's no certain kind of cake or a dessert or a dish that only gets prepared during that holiday and it reminds you of that holiday, which may remind you of a certain group of people or a certain memory of being a child or if there's like a perfume that used to be your grandmother's scent, you know, and every time you smell it, you think of your grandmother and it's a really nostalgic kind of scent.
And that in turn ties to emotion. And you know, so it, the senses are more than just an experience we have in one moment in time. But I think that they, because they lodged themselves in our bodies and our memories, a lot of times it'll draw up, you know, different feelings and different emotions, different reactions. So I thought that was a really interesting direction to take.
It is really fascinating. And yeah, it's interesting to bring all of that to bear on the gospel John and maybe thinking about John's readers. And in the book, you know, as well the importance of taste and memories related to taste when discussing Jesus claims about the bread of life in John six. How might some in John's audience have recalled other Jewish references to eating and tasting alongside Jesus identification as the bread of life?
Yeah, yeah, that was a really interesting one to look into because there's within the context of the John six, you know, Jesus feeds the multitudes. And so even within the narrative, the very next day he's having this conversation with them about I'm the bread of life. And so if you just think within, if you just imagine within the narrative, this isn't even like the readers outside, but within the narrative, you've got these characters who have just been fed bread and fish the night before. And now he's talking about I'm the bread of life.
And so what are, what are they potentially thinking about, right? And then then you have the, the, you know, Jewish readers of the text. And are they thinking like when they think manna from heaven, they're thinking about the Exodus generation, right, which is connected. I know, Catherine Williams has done some work on like the composite citations of how this draws on passages in the Psalms.
And Jesus is kind of positioning himself as this new living manna from heaven. You have this idea of eating bread being connected with like wisdom and Torah, in addition to just physical memories of bread. And what we think about when we're hungry and we're satiated, this whole conversation with in John six occurs during kind of the Passover season. So what does this call to mind for, you know, early readers who celebrate Passover and how they celebrate Passover and what kinds of not just tastes but smells and experiences they have as they're thinking about that particular tradition.
And then the most shocking one I think is when Jesus moves the metaphor to talking about, you know, my bread is my flesh and you need to eat my flesh and drink my blood in order to, you know, live basically. And I, and that is the point at the end of that narrative is we know a lot of people within the narrative, they can't, they're like, what we're out now, you know, they're not sticking with him because it's just too shocking. And so I kind of spent some time exploring what, what would have been shocking to them. And as you think about what is eating flesh, back to and in some positive ways, it can connect back to this idea of sacrifice, right?
So, you know, a Jewish crowd in particular might generate, generate memories of, or memories or associations with a priest, you know, slaughtering and playing and then eating the flesh of an animal, you know, and I think a Jewish reader might recall eating, you know, the flesh of an animal in the celebration of Passover. But then you also have this like very negative connotation of eating flesh if you, if you locate it in the context of, you know, cannibalism, which is a really shocking thought, which would maybe not necessarily be a memory anyone has, but it's one of those like you hear about it and it's something that's just so shocking. And so you pair that with drinking blood, which we, you know, as we know, like, that's a major prescription in, you know, the Jewish community. And so to think about drinking blood, what is he saying?
And so I think, when you think about kind of the embodied reactions and what might have to that those statements, it makes sense when you think about people not being able to hang hang like, I'm out, Jesus, this is too much for me. I don't know what you're saying here. So yeah, just kind of exploring some of like, what would people try to imagine what would people associate these statements with? Safer Ontario means more police and prosecutors making sure my card doesn't get stolen.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting to think about.
Yeah. So a little bit later in John's Gospel when Jesus identifies himself as the good shepherd in John 10, you know in your book that the sheep going in and out so the sheep fold suggests that salvation is characterized by freedom to go in and out and find food at will and quoting from your book there. But how does thinking about the physical particularities of Jesus shepherd imagery invite readers to sense the salvation that Jesus brings? Yeah.
Yeah. That was a really fun one to explore too. And I think I was comparing that kind of freedom to go in and out, comparing it with this idea of like we think about entering into a gate or entering through a gate into a sheep fold where they're locked and kept safe. You know, salvation is like you're kept safe in this enclosure.
But really the picture in the metaphor is that the sheep are safe. They're kept safe as they stay near the shepherd. And so they're led through the gate because it's a measure. It provides them a measure of protection from the elements and from predators.
But they go in and out as they're led by the shepherd's voice and salvation for sheep in this in this context involves kind of a participation with the shepherd that keeps them close to Jesus. And what I thought was so interesting about it is that their freedom was dependent on their dependence, which we don't always put those things together. We don't think of freedom as being the result of dependence, but they are so dependent on Jesus for nourishment and protection and safety. But all of that happens within the context of staying near his voice, which which has some interesting implications to think about, you know, what are the how a salvation characterized in this metaphor?
That is really interesting. Yeah. So freedom is connected, as you say, to stay close to Jesus. And it becomes clearer in the gospel when we think about that sense of sound and moment as well.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
You have to, there's a there is a participation. It's like a reciprocal participation on, you know, for Jesus and the sheep, for those participating with Jesus, you have to listen for his voice, but you also have to stay near it. So you have to move your move your body to stay near it. And Jesus in turn is the one calling his sheep by name.
And so there's a participatory connection happening there that fosters this connection, this, you know, self-evig relationship, I guess. Yeah. That's fascinating. So, in the next chapter then in John's gospel, as we turn to John 11 and 12, we get the story of Lazarus being raised from the dead and, and then also Jesus being anointed.
Sorry, his feet were his head. You can tell me. Yeah. It's his feet in John.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I guess I'm wondering how might paying attention to the smells evoked by the story of the Lazarus resurrection and then Mary's anointing of Jesus inform our reading then of John 11 and yeah, you know, it's interesting.
There's not much reference to smell and fragrance in any of the gospels. I think John actually has the most and there's just maybe just a few mentions. And so what's what's really interesting about this passage is these are like two of the only places where you hear these, you know, this direct mention of smell or fragrance or stench. And so in John 11 39, you know, right before Jesus calls Lazarus from the tomb, which also has some interesting shepherd sheep connections because he's calling him by name Lazarus, coming out and Lazarus is hearing his voice and coming out.
But right before he does, as he tells, he tells those standing by like, hey, roll the way to stone and mark this protest is what Lord, there's going to be a stench because he's been in the grave for four days. And, and so, you know, it's never actually narrated whether there was a stench. There's just an anticipated stench. And so your imagination kind of has to do the work.
And there's been some different opinions and scholarship about like, was there actually a stench or what, you know, like, like, you know, whether it was there or not. And I mean, you know, within the story of if he's dead four days, how can there not be? I think if you think through how to the implications of that. So, so what it ends up being is they roll the way to stone in the story and in the narrative in Jesus prays and presuming that there is stench curling out from the tomb, what you end up seeing next is he calls to Lazarus and Lazarus comes out.
So you have this life emerging from the stench of death, right? So it's these themes of life and death and smell are all kind of intermingled together. And this is, this is, this is like, that's really a cool connection to make with them and you get into the next chapter and it's just a week later and you have this meal that Martha and Mary and Lazarus are, are with Jesus at this meal, presumably to celebrate what Jesus has done with Lazarus and Mary comes and brings this fragrant nard and she anoints Jesus's feet. And it says in the, in 12, three, it says that the fragrance filled the room.
And so instead of a stench, you have a fragrance and he anoints, she anoints his feet and Judas protests. And then Jesus says, well, she's anointing me for my burial. So you have this like fragrance related now to death, but it's a death that's going to bring life. So you just have these like back and forth themes of death and life with fragrance and stench and I think it's all really, really cool.
Just exercise to think about how it all mingles together. It is, yes, it is really fascinating. Yeah. And the idea of, I hadn't thought before of the stench kind of curling out the stench actually perceiving Lazarus out of the tomb.
That's a really intriguing image. Yeah. You have to do a little bit of imagination, imagination there, you know, and I don't want to take too many liberties, but at the same time, like if you take, if you really are imagining the scene, you know, I mean, it's going to be, it's going to be a shocking stench. I think that's right.
Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Well, so this is a really rich book that engages deeply with the gospel of John and also with the reality of embody human life and unfortunately for our listeners and for me as well, because I'm enjoying this conversation, we can't cover everything in the space of just one podcast.
But if you had to highlight maybe just a few key conclusions that come out of the study of the IAM sayings, what might you emphasize for our listeners? Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, the, I think the primary contribution, not necessarily a conclusion, but it's just this idea of applying a sensory critical approach to these IAM sayings like as a unit. And this was all aimed toward this goal of getting greater clarity about how participation with Christ is represented through these predicated IAM sayings. And that was really like the, like the primary contribution I hope that it made.
And I think the hope was to like, can we identify like just a more concrete quality to this notion of participation? And so I think a couple of those, I guess, concrete elements of participation that I think came from this study was this one idea that this salvific life, according to the IAM's, salvific life as sensory participation. And it's this idea that we not only get a picture of who Jesus is, but there's an invitation for others to participate with him in a sensory way and in an ongoing sensory way. So it's more than just a metaphor, but it's like an animated, an animated metaphor, one that's moving, you know, like he who eats the bread.
And when you think about eating, we don't just have a one and done meal and then we're good forever, we have to eat every day. And so I just even think about the concept of we are in ongoing need of sustenance and ongoing dependence. And Jesus as the IAM meets need in an ongoing way. So this idea of self salvific connection is an ongoing, you know, and then when you add in like the abiding, I am the true vine and he who abides me, that's a very ongoing metaphor where you are continuing to abide.
So it's kind of a, it's talking about these themes of ongoing dependence and ongoing needs. So I think that that's some of what's come out of it. I think this idea that that Jesus through these sayings, he meets vital need, right? With the sheep and the shepherd, he is, he is totally, you know, providing nourishment and safety and protection for sheep.
He is nourishing people through food, we didn't talk about the other ones necessarily, but bringing life to Lazarus, right? And, you know, in the, the, I am the, I'm the light of the world, he is bringing sight to the man born blind. So you just have these, these really interesting narrative things happening alongside the sayings that illustrate this idea of meeting need, meeting need in an ongoing way. And then finally, I would say some like provision of love through presence.
So there's like this, the ongoing, it's not just about meeting need, but there's an ongoing presence that is, that characterizes these I am sayings where those who participate with Jesus, the picture is an ongoing presence with him, which you see kind of carried throughout the sayings. Fantastic. Yeah, it's, it really is amazing just how, how thorough going the implications of the I am sayings become whenever we engage our senses for reading. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's definitely been a rich experience studying these.
Yeah, fantastic. Yes. Well, we've been talking with Janine anger about her book, Sensing Salvation in the Gospel of John, The Embodied Sensory Qualities of Participation in the I am sayings. Janine, I know we've taken up a lot of your time, but can I ask, what are you working on now?
And what should we keep our eyes out for from you in the future? Yeah, so I'm actually currently kind of searching for the next thing that I'm going to be doing. I'm, I'm, I'm still intrigued by this idea of embodied sensory engagement. And so I, I may, I'm not totally sure.
I did, I did actually just have a book, a book released in August for more of not, it's a book that I'm assigning to my freshman students in my New Testament class. So it's one that, you know, my kids could read if they wanted to. So it's, it's called Engaging Jesus with Our Senses. And so it's actually a look at all of the gospels instead of just John.
And it's, and instead of organizing according to the I am saying, it's actually organized according to senses. So it's like an approach to the gospels by looking at site passages first and then looking at taste passages and smell and, you know, so that's been kind of a fun project that does finally come, like, come to fruition is out. So yeah, that's really fantastic. Oh, yeah.
Sorry. What was the title of the book that's just just yeah, it's called Engaging Jesus with Our Senses and Embodied Approach to the Gospels. And it's with Baker Academic. So yeah, it's been fun.
Yes. Sounds amazing. Yeah. Fantastic.
Well, Jenny, that really does sound, sound like a wonderful book. I'll have to read it and pick it up after this, after this podcast. But I want to thank you very much for being on the show today to discuss your book, Sensing Salvation in the Gospel of John, The Embodied Sensory Quality is a participation in the I am sayings. I really enjoyed the conversation.
So thank you so much for taking time. Thanks for having me, Jonathan. It's so great to get to talk with you. Yeah, I've enjoyed it.
So well, thank you and thanks everyone for listening. Take care.