Hello, I'm DJ Holiday from WXAV. And I'm Natalie from the ZV-Ray. And today we sat down with Jim Derogontis. First of all, I just wanted to ask, what got you initially into wanting to do journalism?
Well, you know, I was always a voracious reader. I don't think anybody who wants to be a writer doesn't start out first and foremost. You know, and I worked for my high school newspaper and your book, I was more interested in writing record reviews than news, but I went to journalism school at NYU. I was still interested in writing record reviews, and I wasn't waiting for anybody permission to do that.
I did my own fanzine all throughout the 80s. Nobody's going to publish you. Do it yourself. So much easier today.
You just go on the web. But it's something I always wanted to do to write about music. Absolutely. You've got to have a passion.
And I know you used to work for the Sun-Times. So what are your thoughts about WV-EZ possibly buying out the Sun-Times? Well, you know, I think Chicago Public Radio BZ is a great institution. It's been challenged financially with the pandemic and with the same challenges all of journalism is facing.
You know, sometimes has been on life support for quite some time. It might have left about 12 or 13 years ago. I always believed in the paper and there were many, many great people who worked there and some still do. So, you know, I think it makes sense to merge those two entities and, you know, anything that's going to put more reporters out covering our community is a good thing.
No, absolutely. And would you say in a way that journalism can kind of hold people or institutions accountable in ways that the law might not even be able to do? Absolutely. I mean, you know, the journalist's role goes the old saying is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.
It's a cliche almost. But, you know, you look at something like BZ's recent reporting on the Chicago lifeguards scandal that is decades long, sexual abuse of female lifeguards by male employees of the city. You look at the R. Kelly story.
You look at everything right now. So many stories are pressing in the era of Trump and just sort of almost post-Trump. You know, the fact that we have such a huge percentage of Chicago police officers whose job is to protect and serve from the homeless person on the street to the Gold Coast resident, and that they were left to get vaccinated. You know, why?
You know, because of some ridiculous political belief and conspiracy theories or forwarding the big lie that the election was stolen. We're at a time where people's grasp on facts is super tenuous and frightening. You know, the fact that, you know, so many of us are trying to stay healthy and so many other people have fallen prey to this plague, you know, and we have a vaccine that helps. And yet you have a huge chunk of America, something like 40% that are not doing what they need to do in order to beat this back.
Totally agree with you. And especially with like the variety of ways you can get journalism. I'm actually here also with a member of our school newspaper and she has a couple questions for you too. Hello, Jim.
My name is Natalie. I am the editor-in-chief of St. David University student paper. The Zebra.
I was wondering if you can not share the memory with us and need you following up with music. Ah, well, you know, I remember discovering a stack of records that my dad had left behind. He died when I was five years old. We had this ancient old, that's more of a piece of furniture than it was a record player.
And I remember playing those records. I didn't much care for the Broadway cast recordings of Oliver or Auntie Maem. But I remember falling in love with Frankie Layton, a very cheesy country in Western Singer, you know, and orchestrated country in Western music, you know, Rawhide and Gunfight and OK Corral. And I'm just fascinated.
You know, as I read later, it was this Italian guy from Lidlittli, in Chicago, Frankie Del Vecchio, re-invent himself as an operatic, crooning cowboy. I mean, to me, that's the story of pop music. You know, you can become anything that your imagination can picture, you know, in popular music. You know, you see that from Frankie Layton up to, you know, Kurt Cobain.
I'm going to escape this, you know, and beyond to the present. I'm going to escape this small town of Aberdeen, where I'm supposed to just get drunk and work for the logging company, and I'm going to do something else, something alternative, something different. So what do you think about our crime music scene? Well, you know, I mean, there is great music made today.
There was great music made in 1967, 1977, 1987, 1997. I hate this notion of people sort of calcify in whatever era they were a teenager, you know, they tell you this lie. Nothing you ever hear is going to be as great as the Beatles. And that is just such bullshit.
You know, there's a band today, you know, rehearsing in some basement in Oakland. That is going to be better than the Beatles or better than Nirvana, or I better in the sense that you are there now and hearing this music in the present, and it can move you every bit as much as whatever artist you can name that preceded them, you know, and, you know, sometimes there's merely 25 incredible albums released in a year, and sometimes there's a hundred, but there is always great music being made. It depends on you to seek it out. No, absolutely.
I think that brings up a really good point, too, just with the current. I think the current music climate in a way, like a lot of people have this almost elitist mentality of, you know, my music is better than yours. And my music is better than yours. And my music is better than yours.
You know, and I think that almost great to talk to culture around it. Yeah, well, there's always been that, you know, boys with their baseball cards, you know, and the fact is that a lot of great art is being made all the time in whatever genre. And the means of delivery are changing, you know, might not be a final album or a CD or there's bandcamp and there's SoundCloud and there's, you know, independent movies released on YouTube and there are self published books and, you know, the gatekeepers are changing away from big corporations, but great art is being made all the time. And, you know, I perhaps naively, optimistically believe that, you know, the stuff that is truly worth being heard of, you know, you'll hear about it, you know, where there is an ability now to reach an audience without major corporate, major label hype, you know, that you can release on SoundCloud and go viral and if it's great, people are talking about it and it picks up a certain momentum.
You don't need the radio station and payola and video and, you know, you can reach an audience, but it requires the audience to be hungry. And some people just, this is an alien attitude to me and one that I can't understand whatsoever. You know, some people are just like, you know, I don't have the energy to discover new music. I've never understood that attitude.
If you love food and you've eaten at the French Laundry, you know, we're the greatest restaurants in America or a linear in Chicago, right? You don't say, well, I never have to eat again. I've now had the best meal I'm ever going to have. You know, I mean, that's like ridiculous.
Right. So why do people treat music that way? That's a good question to bring up, actually. You know, I think part of it is also just for them.
It's the time period that's reminiscent, not just the music. Like you said, it's like what was popular when they were teenagers and stuff. So for them, it's the kiss of death for all great art. Oh, yeah.
You know, there is living in the past is denying an incredible amount of wonderful art that's being made in every genre, music and film and, you know, fashion, you name it, video game design. You know, art moves forward and some people just get stuck at one place in time. And that's always sad to me because it means that you're closing yourself down to new experiences and new discoveries. So, Jim, is it okay if I ask you a question about R.
Kelly? Sure. So after working the R. Kelly case for many years, how did it feel to hear the guilty verdict in New York?
You know, every journalist, my friend, always wants to know how I felt or how it was it hard to keep telling the story for 21 years or how did you feel when he finally convicted. I honestly always just thought of the women who had trusted me to tell their story. And I had been speaking to several of them throughout the trial and I know how they felt. They were glad that he was finally being held accountable for his actions.
And they also felt a sense of sadness, but this was too little, too late. Why did it take 30 years from victim number one in 1991? You know, and it was never about me. You know, I was telling the story of women who trusted me and said, you know, no one is listening to us.
We've been hurt and we talk to you. And I don't know why more journalists weren't talking to those people. How long did it take to really gain their trust? Because I'm pretty sure that was a terrible thing, you know, for them to endure.
Like, how did they begin to really trust you with this information? You know, there were some cases of me spending nine months or eight of nine months for Dominique Gardner to decide she wanted to talk to me. It took three or four years for Geronda Pates to decide she wanted to talk to me. But honest to God, the vast majority of the people, many of whom we did not name, who we granted anonymity for the very best journalistic reasons, that they were going to get hurt if they were on the record with their name attached to the information they were telling us.
But if I go back to November 2000 when, have been pallish and I sometimes spent six weeks on that first story, you know, people were never saying, I have nothing to say to you and slamming the door. You know, we had many people in the African American community saying, you know, thank you for ringing my bell. Come in, sit down. You know, no one has believed the story.
We're telling. Thank you for listening. And those experiences far outnumbered. I never twisted anybody's arm.
I would just say, you know, we hear you have a story to tell that you've been hurt and we're willing to listen. And, you know, after a certain amount of time, really after that first story in December 2000, you know, we've proven that we were serious and that we were getting this right. If I can, you know, the one thing I'll share as a journalist, the point of peaky pride is that in 21 years of reporting on Kelly, there was never a single lawsuit correction clarification or retraction everything I've printed in 21 years, we had right. You know, when to see, you know, the one point of pride, I will say, how did you feel when the eviction came down?
It was more like how I felt every day covering the trial to hear things presented in a court of law as fact backed up with hundreds of pieces of evidence that the government entered in that case, you know, these things that I reported, you know, seeing them now laid out in a court of law. And I think that the biggest, the best feeling from the verdict was finally these victims have been believed. They've been hurt and they've been believed. And, you know, but that's, you know, that bumps up against why didn't this happen?
You know, 30 years ago, why didn't this happen with the first story in 2000? Why didn't this happen when he was tried in 2008? Why didn't this happen when in 2013 he's being booked to headline Coachella Bonnaroo and Pitchfork? Were you unaware, you know, these gatekeepers of music press and music hipness, they were not unaware.
They just didn't care about the many people that this man had already destroyed their lives, many women. Why do you think they didn't care? Why do you think that this was ignored and kind of rushed under the rug? I think there's a couple of answers.
I mean, number one, you're a young woman. You're familiar with rape culture. Women in general are not believed. We know that only one in four sexual assaults is ever reported to authorities and only one in five or one in four are the ones that are reported ever result in justice.
Women are not believed. Number two, there's an undeniable element of race here. You know, women in general are not believed, but black women are especially not believed. And as a fat white rock critic, white people trust me, I was willing to listen.
I'm not of the community. I'm not a woman. I'm not a black. You know, but I was willing to listen and to verify and report.
You know, and I'm only ever amplifying the voices of dozens of young women who've told me since the start of this career. I was a young black girl. Nobody wanted to listen. Nobody believed me.
I'm assuming you've endured a lot of negative experiences while covering this case. Can you please tell us how the effect that you've been not only you but your family? Well, that's another one of those questions where, you know, sleepless nights for me and the fact that I didn't start smoking until this day. I'm sorry.
That is nothing compared to the courage of the women who spoke out what they endured from their families, from their churches, you know, being vilified on social media. You know, I'm a thick headed guy originally from Jersey, been in Chicago a long time. I got it mixed in. It's nothing.
Anything that I've ever endured. Nothing compares to the bravery of those women and to see them vilified. You know, right now Kelly's physical product sales have increased by more than 500% and his streaming has gone up 25%. More people listening to Kelly now than they were at any point in the last 10 years and more people are saying that those women were liars, opportunists, media, greedy, these are sexual assault.
These are rape victims. I mean, it's actually right. You know, a 15 year old cannot consent to sexual relations with a 27, 37, 47 year old man. These are rape victims and they're still not believed.
So that just makes me sick to myself. So why do you think people support him as much as you do? Well, that's a complicated answer to just like, you know, rape, culture and racism. I mean, you know, music is the most intensely personal art form.
If I believe I can fly was your kids kindergarten graduation theme and step in the name of love was your wedding song and ignition remix powered every backyard barbecue you ever went to with friends and family. You know, that music is yours now as much as it is his, you know, it is part of your life and your emotional memories, you know. And so it's very hard to turn on that, you know, and turn it off and stop that and the mute are Kelly. On the other hand, your support of this artist enabled him to be a sexual, sexual predator, you know, destroying the lives of vulnerable young victims for 30 years.
So this is, this is what we're going to talk about. I mean, separating the art in the artist is a noble idea, perhaps because a lot of horrible people make radar, but they were degrees horrible. You know, our Kelly is now officially the biggest predator in the history of popular music where men have been treating women badly since the body soxers of the forties to last week. That saying something and it also is saying something that for the first time women of color will believe.
And this is the first significant verdict in the me to era where the victim several primarily been black women. No, absolutely. I think all the points you just made there were pretty true. And there was something that you brought up earlier that you had also brought up in a couple interviews, which is that you said the system has failed young women of color, which I also agree with.
But how do you propose like what are things that we can all do, not just not just things that the government can do or that the justice system can do, but what are things that we as a community can do to improve this. Well, I think you got to shout it from the rooftops. I think that the example that can yet Tisha Barnes and Orinique Oderle presented with the mute our Kelly movement. They were ferocious.
They were focused. They were not going to shut up about people giving this man their concert dollars. Their music buying dollars when he was destroying the lives of young black women. You know, their sisters, their cousins, their aunties, their best friends.
You know, I think all of us have to make as much bloody noise as we can. And it's like, OK, Jim, you're good for you. You're on the radio. You're a journalist.
You can get published in the New Yorker. Yeah. Well, you're journalists too. You're radio broadcasters too.
And even if you're not, you know, there's a piece of oak tag and a sharpie. Go stand on the corner. And that's how you dark Kelly started. And, you know, it was me telling the story of a tireless mother and father from Atlanta who began fighting to get their daughter, Joe A.
Home reached out to me in November 2016. It took nine months to publish that story in BuzzFeed in July, 2017. Mute R. Kelly starts then and there, right there and never stopped.
And, you know, Mute R. Kelly, the savages lead to Mute R. Kelly. Mute R.
Kelly leads to surviving R. Kelly, surviving R. Kelly leads to a federal investigation. And finally, 30 years late, the biggest predator in the history of popular music is stopped.
You know, I know it was difficult for those women. And they got vilified in social media and they got sick and tired, but they didn't stop. And that's what it takes, you know? No, absolutely.
Those are very brave women. And it's amazing what they have done to not only like encourage other young women to be able to come forward with their stories, but just setting like such a great example of what it is to be a really strong woman in today's society, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
You know, and earlier you did mention the whole concept of separating the art from the artist and everything. And obviously, this is a case that's absolutely, you know, there's no question about it. But do you think that there's a line that's drawn in the separate the art from the artist or do you think that people almost use that as an excuse to kind of hide behind supporting somebody that they know is bad? Yeah.
And I think on the negative tip, it goes even deeper than that. You know, the music of Charles Manson is still streaming on Spotify, available for sale on Apple and Amazon. It is truly shitty psychedelic folk music. And I like psychedelic folk music.
There is no reason to listen to the music of Charles Manson, except to revel in that man's evil. It's a melodramatic example, but it helps to look at these big examples, right? It's harder for Michael Jackson. I think the world is a worst place without the Jackson five or against the wall.
Right. You know, but in his case, the last two albums of his career where he's continually protesting his innocence, not molesting his boys being wrongfully framed by the prosecutor of Santa Barbara County, California. You know, those are the worst albums of his career. So living without invincible and history is no problem.
Right. You know, with our Kelly, it's different. I mean, from day one, his entire catalog is a celebration of a view of headedism that says, I will take my pleasure wherever I desire with no concern for the lives I ruin. You know, what's the album he made for Leah?
He's having sexual contact with her when she is 13 or 14. He marries her at age 15, now proven in a court of law. What's the album he wrote for aging? Nothing but a number.
He never hit this behavior. And so it's a really difficult example when you put it up against the fact that many people grew up with and love this music. You know, what do they do with it now? But I don't think there's a wrong or a right.
If you say, I condemn the harm this man did, but I can still enjoy the music. Okay, good for you. If you say it makes me sick to my stomach to listen to his music. Okay, you're not wrong either.
This is, this is, you know, a problem. We want to be told what to think, you know, often when complicated questions arise. And instead, it's up to every individual to decide for herself is very complicated and for any question. No, absolutely.
I agree. I wanted to get your perspective on it, not only from somebody who has studied this case and been involved in this case for so long, but as also just a big music listener and someone who has quite a bit of history, just being involved in the industry overall. So I really wanted to get your perspective on that. And I do, I do agree.
I think it's good to have a balance of knowing like your own personal boundaries. If you want to call it that. Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, there are, yeah, right. It's up to every single individual.
If we take our seriously and certainly I've devoted my life to music, I can't think of anything to take more seriously. Then we have to realize that sometimes this has an impact in the real world and it is not mere entertainment and we have to think about what our endorsement of that music or any art form, what it entails, you know, and what ramifications, you know. So I think this is going to be the singular question for your generation. You know, it's not cancel culture.
It is not burning records in the public swear. It is beginning to wrestle with the fact of what happens when I support a business or Kelly was a business, right? That is doing damage. And, you know, you could say the same thing of ExxonMobil.
You could say the same thing of Walmart. I love me a good chicken sandwich, but I will not go to Chick-fil-A. They have corporate policies, homophobia, anti women, you know, that I disagree with. I'm not going to give them my five bucks.
It's up to the individual, but I think a lot of people just glaze over things and like, oh, well, it is what it is. I like it. And it's like, it depends on how much, like you said, how much something means to you, how much certain issues mean to you, you know, if you're willing to kind of draw that line. I just had one more question for you to keep it to end it on a little bit more of a light note.
I just wanted to ask, what does student media mean to the future of journalism and broadcasting? Well, obviously, traditional broadcasting and traditional dead tree journalism is completely dying and needs a serious reinvention. And so it is your generation that needs to find the answer to how these important vital public services can be sustained. You know, it's on you.
No pressure. Because we need it, right? And I'm enough of a capitalist to believe you should get paid for your work. If you're going into a video or journalism, you're never going to get paid well.
Forget about that, right? Well, you should get paid something. And so the economics model needs to be tried and experimented with and solutions come up with because Lord knows we need good journalism. And, you know, it's just going to be a matter of how we can have a career doing it and how it will be paid for because if I didn't have the editors and the lawyers and the resources to do this R Kelly story back at the sometimes or the six columns I wrote during the course of the trial for the New Yorker, I put an apartment to buy the trial transcripts with several hundred dollars a day.
You know, investigative reporting reporting that is going to make a difference takes money. Takes money. Takes money. It takes time.
Takes education. Yeah. Well, the time and dedication you would meet can provide, you know, but buying the court transcripts. Yeah.
I can't. Yeah. Right. You know, so journalism does work.
And the look that's on one level, right? You know, writing a reporter in Afghanistan today, dealing with a Taliban or in Yemen, you know, and getting, you know, the Kevlar vest and the equipment needed to report from a vital hotspot like the government. Right. And so, you know, it's a challenge, I think, to come up with the solutions that are going to make it still a vital concern.
No, absolutely. I think like anything it just has to evolve. It has to grow. It has to, you know, yeah, but it's lagging behind the need for it right now.
I mean, there was never a need for better journalism than with the Trump era of the assault democracy or, you know, the vaccine. I mean, how is it that 40% of America doesn't believe this vaccine works? Right now that they will not get it. I mean, that's just insane.
Everybody in America today. Had to get me those mumps, rubella shots to go to great school. Right. Right.
You know, it's like, I don't want to catch this. I don't want to die because you think Bill Gates is going to implant a microchip by getting a vaccine. I don't know. I think I think if anything, it's not so it has to evolve in a way that is more more accessible for people.
Yeah. You know, I think we're heading in a contest. You know, people need to change their mindset. You know, each young man can one of the great philosophers of journalism said in the 1920s, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
They are not entitled to their own facts. I think it's so much the accessibility, you know, especially with younger generations, people aren't picking up newspapers. They're not necessarily turning the radio on in their car, but people are listening to podcasts. Yeah.
I think it's more so just trying to combine, you know, newer and older media and just getting them to try to merge or one to learn from the other, you know, to grow and evolve. Whether the news is delivered, you know, online or in a podcast or whatever the format is irrelevant, you know, at the bottom line, great storytelling and accurate thorough reporting is what's required and, you know, that can come in dead tree media or a print magazine, or it can come in the, you know, a podcast or a blog or, you know, the means of delivery is irrelevant at the heart of it are storytelling and reporting. That's true. The content is what really matters and that's what gets people to click or to listen or to tune in or however you want to put it.
Yeah, for sure. But anyways, thank you so much for talking with us today and doing this interview and everything means a lot. We really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
Oh, no problems. My pleasure.