John Zaffis

In the dead of night, as people sleep, that's when the spirits creep. As the bell tolls three, dark things take power. We like to call it the supernatural hour. And now, our hosts.

Alright, hey, we are back for a new episode of the Supernatural Hour. And this episode is kind of awesome because, uh, well, because Tim's given me the sexy eye. Which is... This episode is the most awesome episode ever.

It's because it's 11am and I'm usually not, you know, awake at this hour. Well, and we're actually recording on off-dakes, we don't usually record on Friday mornings because people have jobs in lives. But I'm off on Friday mornings and apparently so is Tim. Last episode we actually talked a little bit about, we were talking ghost and religion, kind of talking about spiritual beliefs from different faiths.

We talked about Billy the Idol that didn't want to be 3D's camp. Yes, which was actually, I think one of our more interesting stories. We'll talk about that here again in just a second, but I just realized that we should probably have to go through and introduce all our hosts today. I guess we could do that.

So this is kind of a special episode, we kind of threw it together like last night. I am your host, Castle. With us is also Tim, aka Beaker. What's happening?

We have got B.N. Yeah, and I don't look like a granny today, just so y'all know. That's okay, you're still granny. Instead of granny Thomas, I thought it would be better if we called her granny D.

Granny D, we got granny D with us today. Seriously I couldn't have my stripper name for my name name. That's so much cooler. No, we're going for granny D.

Fine, what was it? What was it? I don't remember what it was. We can call you granny cinnamon.

It's just getting worse isn't it? Yes, you're probably going to stop talking. No silent dawn today, no lurch today, but we've got a... No peaches either.

No peaches, but we had to get a fill in and so we decided that we would just kind of scrape around and see what we could do and we have our fill in who is John Zappas. We sent emails out and he responded. How's it going? So no, John Zappas is in town for the marks with the aliens.

If you don't have your tickets, well you're dumb. Go buy your tickets because it's awesome. But you hear the expo will be over with so. You missed out, sorry.

Yeah, John's awesome. But he may be back at a future expo so keep your eyes open and there'll be other guests who are awesome for the upcoming paranormal expo. So don't be dumb, go buy your tickets. So this episode is actually probably going to be a lot of us asking John questions and John expanding on his knowledge because John knows a lot of stuff.

Stop, stop, stop. If only people can see like the big grin on your face right now, it's like you're in heaven. If you want to know the best way to fertilize your lawn, we're going to talk to John because John knows just the way people are on the ring. Buy some cows.

Yeah, buy them. No, they'll eat your lawn. The fertilizer. They make natural fertilizer.

That's a fun long to go lay out on. Alright, so we're going to get started. We actually had an interesting, I don't know if you've heard about this John, we usually do a little segment on our show and we kind of scurry the internet for interesting paranormal stories. And we found one, it's a group, I can't remember what they're called, look them up like fast, Tim, I'll just fill time.

We're good at doing this. But they're a group they have kind of a traveling museum of cursed objects. Basically these folks, and Tim's looking for, but he can't find it. They had this idle that they're trying to scan and interestingly enough in the video, there's scanning equipment, it doesn't work, it's almost like there's an invisible force field in front of this idle space.

But you know the interesting thing, we've talked about before on the show, before, and I think you're probably in line with this too, John, is that really people's grin around handling that kind of stuff is probably not the wisest thing to be doing regardless. When dealing with the haunted items, again, too, you know, having something scanned, have it checked out to see if there's something within it, I think that's a cool idea because I have a lot of different items that I've never opened up to see if there's anything inside them. And I'd be curious too. But on the flip end of that, I'm always very guarded and very careful which people get involved with this.

And the element to remember when dealing with haunted items, we deal with energy, energy attaches to them just like houses and land. So therefore, when we come in contact with those items and we're handling them, our energy can activate something that's with it. So I'm very guarded and very careful when dealing in the perspective of it, but for a person to study something, scanning it or doing EVPs or trying to gain some type of knowledge off of something, I'm all for that. That's definitely how we're going to advance, how things are going to be able to move forward is by doing some of these different things to be able to check items out.

But I'm very guarded, very careful with people just handling items and just having an open type of environment because I get very nervous because energy is energy, it can never be destroyed. So therefore, I'd rather be safe than sorry on my end. So now I know that you actually have a museum. Is your museum currently open?

Nope. The museum's a barn on my property. It's a private museum. I'm looking forward to it in the future on finding a location where it can be placed, where it can be opened up.

Unfortunately, where I live, I'm one side, I have a lawyer, the other side I have a doctor, and I don't really think they'd appreciate bus folks and people showing up and just, you know, transferring around in my yard and going to my barn. Especially at night. So let me ask you, I've always been kind of a big fan of yours and your work. I also think a fan of Enry and Warren and their work.

In fact, we've actually patterned a lot of what we do based on your work and their work and try and basically follow your guys as an example. Now with that, I know for instance, your Aunt Lorraine has Annabelle, which is a very nasty creepy raggedy end all. In your collection, what's probably your scariest, freaky thing you got and can you kind of tell us the story behind it? I think it's similar to what Ed and Lorraine had.

It was a six foot idle. I have like two foot one. And you know, we've got a telephone call from a mom and dad and they were having all kinds of problems with their teenage son and I had gone over to investigate and, you know, typical teenagers, the parents didn't go in his bedroom or anything like that. He was freaked out down on the top of his room and the three of us went up there and we found where he had an altar set up and he had this two foot idle in there amongst other different things.

And he said, whatever I conjured up and whatever I brought in here now resides within there. And it is telling me to kill myself. So that was a pretty heavy duty type thing because there was a minister that was involved with it. And he did what he needed to do and everything.

And as you know, my wacky sense of humor and everything, I was just telling the minister, you know, I wanted to take all that stuff. He goes, no, that's your job. He says, you take that stuff out. He goes, I don't even want to touch it.

But I had quite a bit of activity that took place over it since then. It's encased. There's been a lot of bindings and prayers and different things that have been done over it. Even though I'm Roman Catholic and I'm very analytical.

And what I mean by that is I work with all faiths. And that's a key essential thing because a lot of people out there aren't Roman Catholic. So getting involved with that, having a lot of friends, you know, whether it be a rabbi, a minister, a priest or anything or a shaman, you know, they come over to visit and make them work. They come over and say, hey, do your prayers or do different things over the barn and a lot of the different things in there.

So I'm very cautious with quite a bit of that. You know, and essentially because on the right over here, we talked about that. And there seems to be like these days, there's a lot of caution lacking, especially if I'm lying on the screen around with stuff that they shouldn't be screwing around with. They don't have that caution.

Have you noticed any kind of uptick as far as calls to you to come build with stuff with some of the later generations? Yes. I think one of the key issues that I'm seeing is a lot of people are collecting. And collecting haunted items is a huge, huge thing today.

And people bring them in and they have them in their home. And it's something that I'm not comfortable with because I've dealt with several people already that are collectors where they end up getting sick. They start having bad luck. They have all these different things.

And, you know, and I'll explain to them a lot of times you're bringing this into your personal environment. I said, you have to have a safe zone. And I believe very strongly on that. So with the people really getting involved with collecting and everything, I'm seeing people really taking it upon themselves, bringing that stuff in and not really doing anything with it.

And it's wreaking havoc and a lot of people's lives. Now with, and I agree, I think having that stuff. I'm not going to interrupt you because I read something interesting today. There's a second famous person that committed suicide today and I was reading an article about it.

And it said that as of late, I can't remember the last few years, there's been an increase in suicides in the United States. And how much of that do you think might be related to what you said about that idol of the kid killing himself? And I know it's hard to say specifics, but do you think that could be an issue with people bringing in haunted things into their homes? Wow.

That's a loaded question. Yes, it is. I don't talk much, but when I do. Yeah, I guess so.

But what he does, we try and muters because we can. Who are you and what have you done with the M? Do we feel, you know, with types of situations where people are collecting and bringing things in that it can influence them and cause depression? Absolutely.

Do I feel that the rate of what we're seeing with people today with the suicide rate, and a lot of it doesn't really add up to a lot of different things? I feel a lot of times people underestimate depression, underestimate mental illness and bipolar and schizophrenia. A lot of times people suffer in silence. And I'm a very big advocate of people coming forward because they're such a stigma with these types of illnesses that people go through and they don't seek out help and they can end up just committing suicide.

A lot more today, especially with very wealthy celebrity people and they just, because they can no longer function because they're afraid to really do anything or move into the forefront. But on the flip end of it, do I think that paranormal can influence some of these situations and cause something to escalate? Yes, I do believe that. So along with, you kind of mentioned that in your barn you've got all the stuff you've collected.

But how many items do you think at this point that you store in there? I don't know. The funny thing is, and every once in a while I'll just throw a photo up and the barn looks like an episode out of Hoarders. That's how bad it's really gotten, where boxes are just piled up.

And the running joke now is that they wanted to do a TV show with me just opening up a box and starting to talk about the item because there's years worth of boxes that I have never opened. I mean like Hoarders, the John's office. Yeah, paranormal Hoarders. That's one of my key things with wanting to get the museum located in a situation where it can continue to after I'm gone.

I'm going to go ahead and just volunteer Tim's house. I'm good. So to honestly even tell you how many items I have in there, I don't know because a lot of times it's like being a kid in a candy store. I walk by one of the boxes and, geez, I never even opened that one.

Look at the post-day down and go, that's been sitting there for about four or five years. I think I better open it. And everyone's going to do that and I'll just post a picture and people go, how can you do that? How can you have all these boxes just sitting there and not even open them?

Because a lot of times with me, I'm more interested in helping the people than I am the item. As much and as crazy as that sounds. Right, the item's with you. It's not with the people.

Yeah, so it's sitting there. It's not bothering anybody. So therefore a lot of times I just look at it that way. And as long as I know there's no issues with where it came from and everything, I leave it alone.

But whether that's a good move or a bad move, I don't know. You know, essentially say that because we said that multiple times in fact, you had to say it to me the other day and that's honestly helping people is probably the most rewarding part of being involved in the paranormal. That's why we do what we do is we like to go to a home and help resolve the problem. So with all the stuff you've got in the barn, have you ever had any activity bleed over into the home or do crazy things happen in the barn at night?

What kind of things have you experienced having all that stuff on your property? I don't have much activity in the house. I've never really had anything major happen in the house. Human spirit, you know, relatives, hair and hair every once in a while will pop up.

But to me, I don't even consider that a haunting or anything. Usually if they're around, there's a reason. Because I believe very strongly in that art to see someone come back to give us information or to help us out. The barn itself, people go in there, they get EVPs, they get crazy pictures, they get all kinds of crazy things.

I mean, it's like, I'm very numb to a lot of stuff now. So I just, it takes something major for me to really like, ooh, ooh, ooh, you know, like a really good history story that ties in with something or there's something major that transpires and then I'll pay more attention to something. Because I look back and I do the same thing. I used to get so mad at my uncle because a lot of times when I would get scared or something or jump, he would just sit there and smile.

Won't move, won't react. Well, guess what? I do the same thing that when there's people with me, they'll jump, they'll move, whatever. I just sit there and smile and I go, oh man, I turned it to my uncle.

I do the same thing. Now it really takes a lot to get me to, once you've been there, once you've been avowed with it so much, I look at it from the flip end that so much when it comes into worrying about the evidence, I'm not so concerned about it anymore. Okay, what do I need to do to be able to help that person? Can I help that person?

That's the way I look at it now when I get involved with an investigation. It's kind of funny that you say that because we actually had an investigation a couple months ago where we had a family tree restaurant I told you about the place that's really dark. It's a little dark restaurant and I was upstairs and in the basement. My wife and another group actually saw a really dark entity down there and there were screams and I got a little bit of trouble for not being more concerned.

I got talked to you so I know exactly what you're talking about. It took me about a week, a week and a half to not be in trouble anymore. So if you can John, I know you've probably got like a thousand and one stories. Can you tell us some of the more interesting stories that you've run across over your years of doing this?

I always try to look at things that are different when people ask me different stories and different things because as again being involved with the demonology under this field. That's how I over the years got involved with that before being known for the haunted collector. Trying to comprehend it and understand how these things could occur, how can they happen was an element that I needed to understand. So I was fortunate enough where Edler and Warren knew everybody in the world.

So Rabbis, Menisters, Priest, DeShamans and I would get to meet all those people when this stuff wasn't fashionable. You just didn't talk about it, you didn't bring it out to the forefront. But that was probably an element that helped me to understand that watching a Rabbi, getting involved with this, watching how they perform their things to be able to help people, watching priests, watching a shaman do different things. And I would collectively try to understand and comprehend and study what I can about each and different religion out there and king back and one day I remember sitting and I was talking with Ed and I go.

It's all fascinating. It's all intriguing watching what all the different religions do to be able to help people. And I said at that point, I said if all these religious spiritual people believe in all this stuff and they help all these different people and get involved with all this, there's really something to all that. Because at that point in time, I was in my twenties, I really hadn't had any type of a major experience with anything.

So that's what led me down, going that path. And today when I look back at it, it's when you witness a person levitating or seeing their eyes change, people getting scratched, people getting bit in front of you, watching furniture, and all that. And I'm like, oh, I'm in front of you, watching furniture, things move around. And those elements all tie in that we know we're dealing with something that's definitely on a negative level.

I look at it totally differently. This is the best way I can explain it to you. You know, I'm no different than anybody else. It's you see that you witnessed that.

And then it takes me a couple of days to process something. And then all of a sudden I'll just go, that happened. That literally happened. It wasn't the imagination.

Several people just witnessed that, including myself. So then you have to reevaluate the way you look at a lot of different things. So when talking about that and leading up to, you know, some of the more horrific things that you see, I think possession is one of the heavy duty aspects of this. When it comes into a lot of that, I don't talk about a lot of those cases I've been involved with to this day that I still work on.

I try to keep it to a point where it's more getting involved with helping that individual or helping out a spiritual or clergy friend of mine more than me going, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, I got the next biggest case that just hit. I don't really look at it that way anymore. It's funny because I just don't. I don't know, whatever.

When I experience anything or have anything bizarre happen, okay, here's a brand new one I'll share with you. I got an email from a young man. It starts telling me about this 212 year old farmhouse and just gave me a very short description of some of the activity that was transpiring. I'm sitting there and I'm reading this email.

This was just this past weekend. And I'm like, something about this. Something intrigued me. I didn't know the name or anything like that.

So I called the young man. I got on the phone with him and I'm talking to him going back and forth and I go, okay, I saw me jump there. It was about an hour away from my home. He lived closer.

He was trying to help these gentlemen out that bought the piece property. And we had so much activity that transpired in there with the three of us just sitting there, voices and bangings and wrappings and all this stuff going on that was happening in the house. And I was still just sitting there going, okay, I'm like that. And I'm watching this poor guy that owned this house.

He's just sitting there and he's like this, just trembling. And I just look across and I go, well, I said, you definitely got to haunt that house. And he goes, yeah, think. And I go, yeah.

And he goes, well, what are we going to do about it? And this is what leads me to the next part of it. And I says, well, right now I have to evaluate a lot of things. So I need to find out what's going on with the property.

I really don't know that much about you. I said, you know, there's a lot that has to go into this. I can't just, you know, dial 911, exorcist and they're going to come right now and clean your house for you. Turn it next.

Yeah. So that was interesting because it was just something randal. It was something that I just spontaneously had done. And I always tell people you have some of the greatest experiences dealing with anything in the paranormal when it's just randal, when it's least expected.

That's when I think some of the most phenomenal type things occur and happen with individuals. Oh, absolutely. I think when I go in and I, you know, when I first started going to see apparitions and I wanted to see things move and, you know, at some point I thought, okay, yeah, that's not going to happen. I'll just go and try the EVPs.

And the most interesting things have happened to me when I've been, you know, caught off guard. When you least expect it. Yep. I was going to say, and I've actually talked about it on the show before, but actually at night when I was at work, you know, I worked in law enforcement and I actually was taking a mental patient to a hospital.

It was the middle of the night. I had the mental patient standing probably three or four feet in front of me and I had a gal at the reception desk, probably another three or four foot in front of him and nobody behind me, nobody on any side of me. But right in my left ear, I heard loud and plain as day of voice just kind of mumble. I couldn't understand the words.

It was just a, I mean, it was just as plain as could be. I actually had a, my phone with me so I heard a shot a picture over my back. And one of the meetings we worked with, she can actually see things in photographs. And so in fact, him was with her that night and I just sent a photograph and said, is there anything in this photo?

And she goes, yeah, there's a man about this age down over your left shoulder where I heard that. And again, it was, I wasn't even doing anything paranormal related at all. It was just me paying attention to what was going on around the kind of thing. And I think a lot of people have those kind of experiences every single day, but they just dismiss it, don't realize what it was.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you, like I said, you, you, I feel we become very, I or I have become very desensitized to a lot of things. And I think you'll appreciate this quote that I use often. And I always say the best analogy I could ever tell you, you ever talk to a doctor, a nurse, a fireman, or a cop, the whore, and the gore and everything they deal with all day long.

And a lot of them were able to, you know, just leave work and they're able to shut off. They're able to shut it down or they can't coexist, you know, in a normal atmosphere with their family and everything. I said, well, I think I have learned to do something very similar to that because I can just shut everything right now and just block everything right out and walk back into the house. And it's nothing to do with paranormal whatsoever.

So I think the key element to be able to do that because today, I find too, with a lot of people, getting involved with our field with the fascination of it, it's 24-7 in their lives and that's not a healthy thing. Everything is paranormal. Then it's, yeah, it's just not a healthy thing. And I discourage that with people.

Well, I do too. I've seen several people, there's a public Facebook page for paranormal people here in Utah. I've seen people talk about how they're constantly doing like EVP sessions in their house and how, just like everything they're doing in their life is just like 24-7, like you said, just trying to find paranormal activity. And I agree with you completely.

That's never investigating your own home. That's like our number one rule. Don't go looking for it. We're in the same mind frame where we're just trying to help people cope with what's going on in their homes and try to remove whatever's keeping them from being afraid to be in their own house.

Or find the root problem with the family that may be causing it and trying to help them if they're willing to solve that root problem. Because that's kind of the key. And a lot of these is to figure out what the root problem is and deal with it because if they're not willing to address the root problem, you can come in with say, shamans, priests, etc. And do stuff and things will be fine for a day or a week, but then it's right back to where it was before, if not worse.

Unless you can kind of get to the bottom of what the root issue is. This is a key thing. And I'm kind of glad you brought that up. Because I always go look at that old saying that we always say you can always lead a horse to order, but you can make them drink it.

So with a lot of people today, there's a big fascination with keeping the haunting going. They want to keep everything going. They want that haunting there. They want this.

And I'll hear a lot of times from people that are being sincere, but I just want to help them. You can't. We've had a few cases like that where we've actually just finally said, hey, contact your local clergy, but there's nothing more we can do for you at this time. Because we had one case.

I think Tim would describe it as probably one of the scariest cases we ever had. Well, anytime you go into a home and there's a loaded firearm just laying against the wall, and the guy is writing down on a piece of paper perfect Latin that he hears chanting in his head. I'm going to say that's probably one of the scariest things we've been involved with. I remember who speaks Latin, and this kid was just kind of a bunk and he was writing down on paper.

This one is ours, priests, over and over and over on paper. The more we got into it, we kind of figured out that he was using a Ouija board on almost a daily basis. And it's one of those that kind of got to the bottom of it where we're like, we can't help you. You basically wanted it there.

That would be a type of situation where I'd walk around and look and I'd be okay. What are you looking for? And I can tell you I probably would have made a decision right there, and then at that point in time, I'm not putting my team members in jeopardy. I'm not putting anybody in jeopardy because if you're willing and able to move forward, you usually can tell.

Psychology 101 in our field isn't difficult. You know, you get used to it and dealing with people and you usually can tell immediately. I think another thing that makes me very nervous and throws up a big red flag, and I think it does what a lot of us, no matter where we are, is that when you start finding out people have 14 and 15 different paranormal groups in their house, nothing's working. They can't figure nothing out.

And I'll sit there and I'll go, I don't think I'm accepting that. I really don't because you're not going to tell me, regardless of whether I know them or not, that you have 14 or 15 different groups in and out of your house and nobody can find anything, what exactly is going on. Something's not lining up right. And that tells me usually the individual wants to keep the whole thing going because everybody thinks they're going to get a movie and a book deal today.

Well, I think there's a certain level of attention seeking there. You know, I'm in profession and anybody who's listening to podcasts knows what my profession is where we deal with some of the same people over and over and over. And I don't want to make light of suicide because it's a very serious thing. We've talked about it, but you dealt with people who every two or three weeks, what was me?

I'm going to end it all. And you get talking to them and you realize that it's just, you know, look at me, I want the attention. And I think you see the same thing in the paranormal field. It's look at me, I want the attention.

In fact, it's funny because as you mentioned that, I look at Tim because we have had a couple cases where it seems like we've been out there, um, teen times. You know, and there's some that have just been a little bit of a tough problem that we've managed to help them work through, but there's been some where I think we've even had members of the team say, I think they just kind of like the attention. Well, we've had cases that we've been involved in where they've tried to collect their own evidence and they posted on Facebook. Didn't they say, hey, look, I've got ghosts because for that exact reason, it makes them feel important or special somehow.

Look at me. Well, I kind of have to, in a way, admire. We had one client and after we got down to the bottom of it, you know, we figured that she had just taken meth like an hour before we got there. And we basically told her, you remember this?

Yeah. And we basically said, you know, we can't help you because we can get out what you've got now. But, you know, the next time you do a hit, it's going to be back and we'll be back every week. And so, you know, we said, until you get clean, don't call us back.

And that's been what a couple years ago? Tell you do with addiction and your mom's girlfriend who's using a Ouija board on a daily basis in the house. There's nothing that we can do that's going to last for more than a day. Maybe she's been calling 14 other groups.

Which usually that's usually what ends up happening. But she hasn't called us back. Yeah. Again, I think it's important whether it's our field or any field.

We have to evaluate like a doctor or anybody. And okay, there's only so much you can do because we're in the field to be able to help individuals bring them the knowledge. But it's up to them to make a decision on whether they want that wanting to come to an end or not. Yeah, and I would agree with that.

And that's kind of what we've experienced as well. I think some people have just been around it or exposed it so much about their entire lives that they feel like it's possible that if we get rid of it or if it leaves their home that they're somehow less of a person. Does that make sense? I think there's also a familiarity.

You grow up with that and then suddenly it's gone. It's like a piece of use missing. And so you want to know. Well it is.

It is. Wow. Good topic guys. Excellent.

When you deal with an individual that has had paranormal experiences ever since they were a child. That's part of their lives. That's a part of them. They move into different houses.

Everything's every house is always haunted. It's not the house. It's the person. So then when a lot of times with these individuals and they're able to be cleared, you know, they're able to be freed of what is attached to them.

And a key element is they have to fill that void with something else. Just like a recovering drug addict, alcoholic, all these different things. I use the same analogy with that. You know, whether it is getting involved with a hobby or, you know, sitting around doing kumbaya, whatever's going to work.

You know, that's going to fill that void for that individual. That's a key element. And a lot of times then I can see those people moving forward. But I will say this, you know, at least eight out of ten times when a person is freed from having that spirit with them, they feel a loss.

They feel they're not no longer getting any information. They're not getting the attention. And therefore they'll invite it right back in again. We've seen that too.

Like we've had people that we've helped where after we've kind of, you know, got that out of their lives, they turn around and ask if they can be a part of our team and go investigate with us. Don't you love it? Yeah. Don't you love it?

We've turned so many people down. It's like, no, it's not safe for you. It's not safe for us. It's not safe for our clients.

We've had countless friends because we usually have friends with most of our clients when we're done. But yeah, like Tim said, it's like, no, we just got that stuff out of your life. That's the last thing we wanted to put you in a situation where it's going to come back in and be day for us. Like, they just feel more qualified.

Well, it's like our friends at Mary River Paranormal, Shane was telling about a case they worked on where they got that negativity out of this girl's life. And then three months later, she was at a public investigation and just brought it right back in. And it's like people don't realize that. They're like, there's something that, you know, just anything, any little thing can bring that stuff back into your life.

And it's not something that you should go looking for. It's not like people think that that's what we do and it's not. We're not actively seeking spirits. We're being contacted by people that have legitimate problems and we're going to try to help them the best we can.

And it's not for the Wii factor. I mean, I get plenty of that on a daily basis. We've actually got a case in the works. This fellow, I'm super nice guy.

And we know what his issues are. And I don't want to air him now since we're, you know, he's a current client. But he was expecting us to come in and get rid of it and everything would be fine. And there's a few things that he's going to have to do to keep it gone.

And we actually have our second, we're going to go visit him again next week. And I told him, I said, you know, we're probably going to be having to come back a couple times because I knew he wasn't ready to purge his issues. And this next visit is going to have to be a little bit of a come to Jesus and say, okay, you know, honestly, here's what the problem is, and you're going to have to make a decision one way or the other before this will go and stay gone. So we've had several discussions with clients and unfortunately it's like, usually we have that conversation with them.

We never hear back from them. We've had like a couple that they finally, you know, realized, hey, I need to change things in my life and they call us back for help. But I'd say a good majority of the people that we say, hey, you know what, you need to change this around in your life. For whatever reason, decide that they want to just keep doing that and they don't, they don't really want to get rid of the problem.

That's more of an issue today than I've ever seen before. It's just something I have to take that step back and look at it and realize that it's not going to make any difference on whether you go there 10 times or you don't. This person is just, it's just not going to let anything go. They're not going to let it go.

So therefore, a lot of times making that decision to just move forward and being valed with something else because, you know, the one thing I always get a big advantage of being involved with something else, because, you know, the one thing I always get a big advantage of is that it's not going to be a big advantage. The one thing I always get a big amazement out of is a lot of times somebody will call me, you know, that I know that has a paranoid group or anything. Okay, they just told us you want nothing to do with them, blah, blah, blah. You were there and everything and they go, we know you better.

You don't walk away unless there's a legitimate reason for you to walk away. And I go, yeah, you want to go hang out there, do your EVPs and, you know, try to catch orbs or do whatever it is you want, knock your socks off and go ahead. I said, but I'm too busy with trying to help people that want the help, not just go and entertain somebody. The other thing I find today too is I don't quite understand it.

You know, you're dealing with a family and they have, you know, a couple of little children and everything. You tell them you're coming over to investigate. A lot of times I'll bring a few team members with me. You show up and it's like they're having a party.

They invite all these people in, the neighbors are showing up, all their friends are showing up, they're cooking, they're doing this. What is going on? No, I'm not here for a party. I'm here to help you.

You know, I laugh at you say that because we actually had to put a disclaimer on our website when you request investigation that we don't want the party. We've actually specifically said we want the people involved in the home and that's it because we've had the same thing where, hey, we show up and they've got ten people there. Yeah, there was four of us and 20 of them, correct. Yeah, literally one investigation.

It was a considerable drive to get there. Well, and one of my favorite investigations where we just had some really incredible evidence and communication, you know, live communication through the K2 meters, we got nothing. I mean nothing was happening, but like the dad was there, the dad of the client was there and he was very much a skeptic. And you know, this is dumb, this is real.

And we sat there for probably 45 minutes with nothing and he finally left. No sooner did the door shut. Boom, you know, all the K2s lit up and we were able to ask us no questions and. That's what I call a neutralizer.

We always have to let it times you'll have one person even in our paranormal groups. I hear this continuously. Well, so and so come and everything. Nothing's happening.

She leaves and all of a sudden all the activity kicks up. I said, well, there's always, you know, an individual, a lot of times in a family environment or in the, you know, in the group environments and I refer to him as neutralizers. We refer to him as Nate Alder. We're silent, Don.

Sometimes in fact, he knows that he is. That's my husband and sometimes I'll just step out anymore. He will stay in the front room, you know, with the homeowners and explain what's going on while we're back in the home doing things because he knows that he knows that he's the job. So let me ask you, let's get kind of into the possession end of things.

Now, when there's a possession, we witnessed some over the course of our doing's. And I know that when you experience those, you usually have them evaluated by a mental health professional. Let me ask you this. How does that work as far as, you know, calling, talking to a psychologist and saying, Hey, yo, is this person possessed?

Kind of explains what your process when you get somebody who you think you're doing with the possession. The immediate process is if I do feel that there is quote unquote the possibility of true possession. Today we're fortunate because it's so we live in a different environment today. What I mean by that is nine out of 10 people.

Oh, I'm hearing voices. Oh, this is happening. What do they do? They run to the doctors automatically.

You know, so a lot of times the groundwork is already done. So, and I find that a lot of therapists, psychologists, a lot of them look and they try to take it into consideration, not necessarily that they'll believe in it. But a lot of them that I deal with will come back and just tell me, I don't know what to think. I can't diagnose this individual with anything.

Therefore, it falls out of the rain, you know, realm of anything I could come up with. And a lot of times, and they'll just say off the record, I don't believe in this stuff, but there's something with that person and I don't want them back in my office. I hear this continuously a lot of, you know, from a long time. They look at it differently today.

Me, I've been fortunate because I've worked with so many psychologists and therapists and different things. A lot of times, if they're not, well, who's John's office? I don't know who he is. And a lot of times, I'm speaking to him, I say, well, I've worked with so and so, you know, in your realm of expertise in that end where they'll chitchat back and forth and, you know, they'll be a little bit more willing to try and work with an individual or try to understand what is going on because, you know, okay, is there's something happening on a level there from that process that they can't evaluate or they can't come to a conclusion with?

A lot of times, I'll just chuckle and go, okay, then we're probably doing always some paranormal. You know, get more involved with it at that point. But with anything before I, and I always say true possession, because there's so many different levels that, you know, I watch and see that people get involved with and it really has nothing to do with true possession whatsoever. But, you know, I was in a train of thought, where was I going with that one?

The difference between true possessions? Yeah, the true possession. I was looking at me for the question. I was looking at who I thought that because I do that on this podcast all the time.

You know, it's important to rule out mental illness by public schizophrenia. All these things have to be ruled out. And it's a critical thing. You know, what medications are all these people on?

What's environment? What are they practicing? What are they doing? All of that before I'm going to actually take that step forward and say that there's something legitimately happening here.

Now, don't get me wrong. There's stuff can mask behind some of that stuff. So it's important to really dig in and find out as much as you possibly can. And there are those times where, you know, I have known people that there are all kinds of medications and everything else and nothing's worked and the medications aren't working.

But what would I say at that point? I'm willing to take that chance and say, let's get help in here on a spiritual level. Yes. Have I seen it help individuals?

Yes. But I've seen other people where I've taken that chance and made that decision and it really didn't do anything whatsoever. So now you mentioned true possession. Are there different levels of possession and what would you describe those or how to call those?

When we deal with true possession, I mean, there's different. We have the three different categories. We have, you know, where we look at it, where we have the infestation. And it's where it's moving into the person's life and it's altering on the cancer league.

They can't, you know, really take that point and go back and forth with it. And then, you know, just jumping right to what I refer to as true possession. True possession is probably one of the most difficult things to deal with. And the reason being is if a person quote unquote is truly possessed, spirit can go in and out of that individual.

So therefore, if this person's got these legitimate issues going on and they're doing a deliverance or an exorcism and nothing's working, there's no reaction. That's because that's that that's spirit actually left the body and then it can go back in. That's what I call true possession. And you really got to dig in and do what you can to try and have it at the same time framing where you tricked it and the spirit is still with the individual.

Not me. I won't do an exorcism, but I let spiritual people do that. I'm crazy. I'm not stupid.

But, you know, that takes on too much burden on you on a spiritual level. But, you know, watching spiritual people being able to do that and bring it to the forefront where it is within the physical body. And they're able to free that individual. I've seen that happen and work and be successful.

On those cases, though, there are steps they have to take to avoid having further issues down the road. Meaning the people? Yeah. Absolutely.

I feel when dealing with that in a person is legitimately free, they need to fill that void like we were talking earlier. You know, take up a hobby. I don't care if you start needing crocheting. Do something.

Get involved with other things. It's an important element for them to fill that void because they're going to continuously think about it. They're going to start missing it. They're going to miss that information.

And I tried to explain that to them continuously. You know, on the flip side of it, and it's funny, but it's really not funny is that a few years back, we used to try to set up support groups for all these people that went through this. Well, what ended up happening was it turned into a competition. Well, my spirit was stronger than yours, and this went down and needed it.

And I'm like, you just defeated the whole purpose of doing the group to get you guys together to be able to move forward and it just turned into a whole competition. So I just looked down and there was like seven of them and I'm like, forget it. I could do here. Everybody lift your hand and slap your own face and get out of here.

Because I remember I was sitting in on one of their little kumbaya moments and this one did that and this happened in my house and I'm like, you just defeated the whole purpose of doing this. Totally defeated it. So we're running out of time before the organizers who brought you into Utah come and track me down and winch mason's like kidnap him. I know that I know that I know that I'm giving my address.

Oh, why would you do that? Because they were going to bring him here, but then I just went kidnapped him myself. So can you, if you're willing to tell us your most frightening experience that you have had in the paranormal? I think I know what it is.

I think it's trying to get that out of me. I think it's happening right now. I think this is the scariest moment in his life when the paranormal is talking to us. He's saying the dark tape in the corner.

He's like, as soon as that blue jeep pulled up in front of the hotel. I was scared. I think, you know, when I take that step back and it's 30 years ago was the haunting in Connecticut. It was a very traumatic case for me.

You know, it was where you witnessed something and you experienced something and the way it legitimately happened was the fact that I was sitting in the dining room and I was just jotting down some notes and had gotten up. The house got very cold. It was August looked up the staircase and it was just transparent huge stinky thing smelled terrible started forming and started coming down the staircase and said, do you know what they did to us? Do you know what they did to us?

And everybody was down to sleep at that point. I was no one awake. And it just rocked my world that night. Totally rocked my world.

And the tail end of it is more funnier than what's ever been on TV because then at that point I started screaming and yelling, mother effing everything up and down, fell over a coffee table. At that point, everybody finally started waking up. They're trying to grab me and I'm like, I don't want to do it all you freaking people. I want not to do it any of this stuff anymore.

And for three days, I wouldn't talk to anybody. I legitimately would not talk to anybody. And we were very fortunate. Bishop friend of the family called me up.

And I'm like, you know, Bishop, I'm done with this stuff. I want not to do it this f this. I'm done. I'm gone.

I'm gone. I'm gone. I'm gone. And he goes, are you done now?

And I go, yeah, he goes, are you going to let it win? And what are you talking about? He goes, it's intent and purpose was to scare you. So you won't do the work and help people anymore.

And I'm like, oh, bitch, I got to put it that way. Don't you? Damn it. So he was right.

I did agree with him. And I knew everything was set up. Everything was sanctioned to be done. And I did go back into the Southern town home.

And everything was performed. And it was very successful. And shortly after that, Carmen and Elson had moved out of that house. And I've never been back in that house since.

I just not that I think the house is still haunted. I do think the house is cleared. I really do. I don't know if I haven't been in it, but I just don't want to relive that moment.

Did they ever forget what the root problem was in that particular home? There were several different things that transpired with that piece of property. And it just got so complicated. And it just got so involved with things that they felt transpired and occurred in there that they felt that, you know, there was one of the, as you know, it was a former funeral home.

They felt that, again, with some of the different things that the family was able to get a whole lot of in a few other people, that there was a particular employee that worked there. And he was performing a necrophilia on some of the deceased people that were living there. And again, it just got to a point where it just got so sketchy and so crazy and so involved on a legal end that you just don't go too deep into too much of that. I don't because I just don't want to deal with it.

It just gets too crazy. But we do. I do feel that that was one of the one of the major factors that contributed to something. And what Carmen's oldest son, you know, going through the cancer and the treatments and everything, it was just like a perfect storm because that house had sat vacant, the lower level of it for quite a few years before Carmen and her family had moved in there.

And I think it was just like when they moved in there, it just triggered it, it triggered everything. You know, it's kind of a tragic ending with that whole case because I'm not aware of it or not, but a fellow ended up passing away several years ago. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, unfortunately, you know, he was always a tormented young man.

He always had a lot going on. It was very difficult for him. And it was just a very sad, sad thing where he had passed away a few years back. Was it the cancer you had or just something else?

A lot of things ended up contributing. A lot of things ended up happening. And, you know, so much takes its toll on you when the contributing factors were too that they felt that the cancer did come back. Yeah, cancer's not fun.

I know the several of our team members have dealt with that on a different level. Currently dealing with it. Yes, exactly. All right.

Well, we will call that an episode just so we can get you back and the organizer should write into you tight. Don't hurt us. But we appreciate you coming down. It's been a fantastic interesting talk.

I honestly, I have no idea. But I could probably go for five more hours just asking questions. I was tempted to call out to work and be like, hey, I can't come in today. I just want to mention real quick, since we did talk about suicide and whatnot today.

I don't really want to leave it. I don't really want to mention it before. But we just want to make sure all of our listeners are aware that if you are having problems and need some to talk to you, you're more than welcome to reach out to any of the host of the Power Dash Network. And we'll help the best that we can.

If we can help you, we'll get you the number to help line. We'll get you that we need, basically. We're here for you guys. Absolutely.

I particularly dealt with it on a personal level through work. So I might have had a lot of experience with. It takes a toll on all the people around you, including people like me who come out and deal with it. But please reach out.

Talk to us. We'll, if all it takes is one of us talking to you for a while, we'll talk to you for a while. I'm an issue with that. If it'll help, I'll reach out.

Before we do sign off though, make sure that you keep your eye out for events from the Paranormal Expo. Do you know the dates on that, Tim? The Paranormal Expo is going to be October, I want to say 6th. It's for Saturday in October.

Yeah, make sure you take it because again, they bring in great guests like John Zafus. I don't think he's going to be at that one. Check off, you'll be there. Check off, you'll be there.

And if Ben Hanson will be there. If I have my way, I'm going to pressure them to bring John back out for future events. So keep your eyes open. John Zafus, I ain't going back to you, tell us kind of idiots.

But anyway, thank you for listening. Bill and, beer factory. Oh yes, thank you. Sorry.

It's my birthday. I remember it. Beer factory, we are doing a beer factory investigation. Green cake.

June 23rd, bring cake, not a reville cake. Because it's a scam. You like red velvet cake? It's a scam.

He hates it, but I love it. It's a scam. John likes it therefore you must now like it. It has to be from down south.

There's a difference. From velvet cake down south to up north. I think it's a water. I've always kind of been in the opinion that red velvet is just really shitty chocolate cake.

Okay. You've offended your idol. That was sacrilegious. Okay, Castle now loves red velvet cake forever and ever.

Red velvet cake is my friend. Go buy your tickets for beer factory. I am going to have the link up on our Facebook page. You can also go to AdvancedPairnormal.com.

There will be a link there for tickets. Come out and say hi to us. Come investigate with us. Come get you some EVPs.

It's a very hard location. It was featured on Ghost Adventures. Yes. Yeah, so come on out.

And I think we'll call out a show. Am I forgetting anything? I think we go, man. Alright, cool.

Peace out, butterflies. You've been listening to the Supernatural Hour at AdvancedPairNormal.com They're grown ass adults that like to sit in the dark and talk to each other. The Supernatural Hour is part of the PodBass Network at PodBass.com.