June 18 — Former Vice President Mike Pence

This Sunday, former Vice President Mike Pence responds to the federal indictment of Donald Trump. I don't know why some of my competitors in the Republican primary presume the president will be found guilty, but all we know is what the president has been accused of in the indictment. You were President Biden. Would you argue about it?

I just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. As he launches his own run for the White House, he explains where he differs with his former running man. In 2016, Donald Trump promised to govern as a conservative, but he makes no such promise today. His criticism on how Trump would lead on the world stage.

My former running man seeing war raging in Eastern Europe is signaling an ambiguous message and not even able to say who he would prefer to see win the war in Ukraine. And now he thinks he can build support for his own campaign. Who is a PEN supporter and how does it differentiate right now from a Trump supporter? I know the people in our movement.

My exclusive interview with my Mike Pence, making history as the first former vice president to ever directly challenge his running mate in a primary. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson, New York Times chief White House correspondent Peter Baker, Kimberly Atkinsport, senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe, and Stephen Hayes, editor of the Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press from NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history.

This is Meet the Press with Chuck Cottage. Good Sunday morning and happy Father's Day to all the dads out there. As one former prosecutor put it pretty bluntly this week, two years from now, Donald Trump could be in prison or he could be president. With Trump holding a commanding leader over the Republican field this week, his opponents face the question that will dominate this race over the next six months.

Will they? Can they? And should they go after the former president over his federal indictment and Trump's legal issues that are likely to come first, let's tackle the Will they. Clearly it would be the best way for any Republican candidate not named Trump to get some attention.

But so far the most direct criticism has come from single digit candidates Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson. Hutchinson called on Trump to drop out of the race after the indictment, saying it's simply wrong to be discussing the pardon. And Christie said the conduct in the indictment is awful. But as Trump appeared in a Florida courtroom, even opponents who have criticized the charges as serious and as Donald Trump's behavior as reckless and diminished that very criticism of Trump with attacks against the Justice Department for bringing the charges against him in the first place and before the case was even tried, they've been leaping to a promise of a pardon.

This is my commitment on January 20, 2025, if I'm elected the next US President to pardon Donald J. Trump. I think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of the document case. So I would be inclined in favor of a pardon, but I think it's really premature at this point when he's not even been convicted.

We're in a clean house and FBI justice can do a lot, but part of it is using your Article 2 powers to redress wrongs, including potentially pardons. If there was a different standard, we're going to be very inclined to grant clemency in those situations. Let's tackle part two of this question. Can they go after nonness?

And according to a pol this week, Trump leads Republican field by 30 percentage points, garnering 53% of the vote. So over a majority and an NPR PBS marriage poll. While just 43% of Americans overall believe Trump should continue to run for president, given this indictment, a whopping 83% of Republicans believe he should keep running. Only 13% of Republicans believe Trump has even done anything illegal.

Changing those voters in a conservative media ecosystem that, at least for now, plans to defend Trump under any circumstances will be an uphill battle. Final part of this question. Should they go after one candidate who has a pretty explicit tick on the seriousness of protecting classified information regardless of someone's millennial position? Was candidate Donald Trump in 2016.

In my administration, I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law. We can't have someone in the Oval Office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified. One of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and enforce all laws relating to the handling of classified information.

Now, perhaps it applies to thee and not to me. In that case, that was 2016 and it's a fun of a stellar Clinton. Now, as one Republican strategist put it, if you are willing to criticize Trump, ask yourself why you're running to defeat him. Bottom line, the question for all of Trump's opponents is what kind of party are they running to lead?

On Friday, I sat down in Huntsville, Alabama with Trump's runtime running mate, former Vice President Mike Pence. He's now challenging him for the nomination. And of course, I began by asking him about Trump's indictment this week. Do you think that these allegations are true?

You Deserve to be convicted. Well, first, you know, moments like this, I think it's important for leaders in this country and those of us who aspire to leadership to return to first principles. The first principle is no one's above the law. The second principle is that every American is entitled to a presumption of innocence.

Now, I've read the indictment in detail and the allegations in the indictment are serious. And I can't defend what is alleged. But the former president deserves to stay in court. He deserves the opportunity to make his defense in a court of law.

And so I want to reserve judgment about this until he's had an opportunity to take his case into the courtroom and take his case to the American people. I will never diminish the importance of protecting our nation's secrets, particularly those that bear upon our national security. I have a son in the Marine Corps, I have a son in law in the United States Navy. We've got to ensure that classified materials, especially those that have been alleged in this indictment, to bear upon our national security, are protected and secured.

But that being said, we've gone through years. Chuck, you said what Hillary Clinton did with the server in this classified documents in October 2016, you said it disqualified her to be commander Chief. Does this disqualify Donald Trump to be Commander Chief? Well, I stand by that view.

It's one more example of a two tier justice system that we've been living through for seven years. I mean, I have to tell you, after, after seeing Hillary Clinton given pass by Justice Department, by the Republic. No, no, no, no. Jeff Sessions had another U.S.

attorney look into everything justice run up to the election. You know, you guys know history. Hillary Clinton was given a pass and then we went two and a half years through a Russia investigation that we now know from the term report should have never been begun. Actually, there was inspector general report that said there was no politics involved with this, that everything was a legitimate reason to investigate.

Again, these are all Republican. The Independent Council found that the investigation into Russian collusion should never have been initiated. And yet we lived through two and a half years of a constant barrage on your network, on the cable network associated with you and many of the other mainstream media suggesting that there was Russian collusion. We had public officials that said there was evidence of collusion never happened.

And then I was disgraceful the way big media and big tech essentially colluded to suppress the story of the 100 Biden laptop in the run up to the 2020 campaign, when the FBI actually had the laptop and knew it was Legitimate. So look, it's hard for me to believe the politics didn't play some in the unprecedented decision to bring an indictment against a former president of the United States. But I want to be clear. I understand that you take no one's above the law and let me allegations are serious.

You believe there's all this politics that influence this decision. What was the Justice Department supposed to do? Should they not have charged him because he's an active candidate for president even in the face of all of these serious allegations? Should they not have brought charges?

Well, as I said in the run up to this indictment, I hoped that the Department of Justice would see its way clear to resolve this issue short of criminal charges. Is that on the Justice Department or the former president? He didn't respond to a subpoena. He didn't respond to requests.

As Bill Barr said, he brought this on himself. I understand what's been reported in the news. We'll see what comes out in evidence in the court of law. But look, I want to say to you that I hope for several reasons the Department of Justice would have done otherwise because as we have seen in the last week, this has only served to further divide our divided politics.

And I have to tell you, as someone that has represented the United States on the world stage, as someone who's on the International relations committee for 10 years, we're the gold standard of justice in the world. And to see a former president of the United States be subject to an indictment by the administration of the current president that he may be run, he may well be facing again in future, that sends a terrible message to the wider world where, you know, there are many third world countries around the world where that pattern is very. Imagine deciding that you have evidence that a number president commits a crime and you don't charge. That could be just as damaging to our gold standard rule of law example.

I think the proper answer right now because we have an indictment and as I said, the allegations are serious and the proper approach now is for equal treatment under the law. The Department of Justice I would like to see bring equal vigor to the investigation into allegations around Hunter Biden investigations. Well, I want to see them come forward that would reflect their commitment to equal treatment under the law. Frankly, you know, the fact that President Biden was found to have had classified documents dating all the way back, not just two years as vice president but two years in the United States Senate.

I would like to see the Department of Justice moving forward. That's equal treatment under the law. So you approve what Garland did by having special counsel within the President. Well, we'll see what happens, Chuck.

I mean the amount of equal treat so far that the former President has been subject. There's a difference between equal treatment and equal outcome. Are you looking for equal outcome or equal treatment? I get your point and I think I've been very clear on this.

And the American people would like to see evidence that we don't have a two tiered system of justice. Seven years it appears as though, as though Democrats get one level of treatment and Republicans, especially those of us the Trump pencil, want to see action by the Department of Justice that proves to them or starts to prove to them that that's not the case. Our Justice Department politicized things in favor of the Democrats. Is that your allegation that informed the seven years you're describing that the Justice Department was run by Republican, former Republican Senator Jeff Sessions, two time Republican Attorney General Bill Bar was politicizing the Justice Department in favor of Democrats.

What I'm saying to you is that we now know that the Russia collusion investigation should have never been begun. Two and a half years put the country through. Secretary General never said that in the days following that under the Biden administration. Now we've literally seen the Justice Department targeting parents going to school board meetings.

We've seen the Justice Department targeting pro life activists. And I have to tell you, I'm still waiting for the rash of prosecutions of people involved in the BLM riots from the summer of 2020. I mean where, where is the equal treatment under the law as evidence of the fact that the people are being brought into court, being held before having caused billions of dollars in damage in hundreds of riots throughout the summer of 2020. Look, clearly the American people, or not, or I would tell you about Republicans, vast majority of Republicans have lost confidence in Department of Justice.

And if I'm elected President of the United States, I've said on day one we're gonna, we're clean house at the highest levels of the Department of Justice. We're going to men and women of integrity who are respected on both sides of the aisle who restore confidence in what makes him so just so a person that runs equal to size. I mean this is where I understand the accusation, but the facts don't feel like they fit the accusation. All I'm telling you is the reality today.

And look, I, I, I, I appreciate the service of everybody serving on the top four at the Department of Justice, but they've lost the confidence of the majority of the American people. You have Been asked a few times whether you would pardon the former president if he's convicted. If you were the president, would you? Well, I just think the question is.

Is premature. I mean, honestly, Chuck, I've pardoned people who are found guilty of a crime. Well, let me say, first and foremost, I don't know why some of my competitors in the Republican primary presume the President will be found guilty. Look, all we know is what the President has been accused of in the indictment.

We don't know what his defense is. We don't know if this will even go to trial. It could be subject to a motion to dismiss. We don't know what the verdict will be of the jury.

We don't know the result of an appeal. So I think, look, the President of the United States takes an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And as I said in my announcement, I'll always choose the Constitution. But the oath of President take also requires them to see that the laws are faithfully executed.

That means respecting the Article three courts in this country. I think we need to let the courts do their job and let this case work its way through our judicial system. And have I the great privilege of being President of the United States, as I did when I was governor, we would evaluate any request for pardon for any American. Biden, would you pardon him right now?

I just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. And look, I just think at the end of the day, it is saddening to me that we are now in this moment for two reasons. Number one is President Trump was my friend. You said in a past tense.

Well, we worked together very closely for four years. I'm incredibly proud of the record of the Trump Pence administration. Some in this primary have taken to criticizing the record of our administration. I'm proud of everything we accomplished for the American people.

We left America stronger, more prosperous than ever before. Obviously, as you and I have talked in great detail, it did not end well. As I said in my announcements, each American people deserve to know that on that tragic day of January 6, President Trump asked me to choose him over the Constitution. And I chose the Constitution, and I always will.

I have no right to overturn the election. This is your way of saying he's not qualified to be president because he did not. Because to put it in somebody else's words, I think it was listing this is. You have to choose between the Constitution supporting him.

You chose Constitution. Is that what he's demanding? Well, if President Trump was wrong, then he's wrong. Now he's continued to say that, that I had the right to return the election.

I had no right to overturn the election. Kamala Harrisl had no right to overturn the election when we beat her in 2024. Look, the role of the Congress and the role of the vice president on that day is to open and count electoral votes, no more, no less. And I'll always believe by God's grace that I did my duty that day.

But let me say with regard to going forward, I'm running for president of the United States because I believe our party and our country need new leadership when we come back down from May history. The first former president ever faced federal criminal charges. Why are so many of his Republican rivals rushing to defend him from them? And what is that?

Welcome back, panelists. Here I've been senior senior Washington correspondent Hallie Jackson and Griffi Jackson. Now Peter Baker, chief White House corner for the New York Times, cna, CEO, editor of Dispatching, heavily active store senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe. Will they?

Can they? Should they? Hallie, the president's defenders. We're out.

Here is how the defense of the indictment began this week. Is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? Bathroom door locks? There are 33 bathrooms at Mar a Lago, so don't act like it's just in some random bathroom that the guests can go into.

He is not a spy. He's overcharged. Did he do things wrong? Yes, he may have.

He will be tried about that. So where are we? Okay. Will they?

Can they shit that people you just saw, of course, are going to back Donald Trump. They're some of his most loyal allies and members of Congress, etc. That fits up a piece of where we are right now. Will they?

Can they? Should they? Will they? I will tell you, not for a long while.

And that's a quote that I heard in the last 18 hours from the member of rival campaign. There is very little incentive for most of these people going up against Donald Trump in this election, based on my reporting, to try to take him on to pull the knives out right now for a number of reasons. They said is that just not where the voters are? That's not where the Republican primary electorate is.

The numbers that you show at the top of the segment, Chuck, show that right. It does. Actually backed up by facts. Voters don't necessarily want to see that.

You're going to have Chris, Christine, you're going to have Asa Hutchinson come out and talk about this. You're going to have Nikki Haley try to walk this line where it's incredibly reckless on the one hand, but on the other hand she consider pardoning him, et cetera. Can they? They can.

We're seeing what they choose to and should they. That's an assessment that each of these campaigns is going to have to come up for themselves. Peter Baker, the field is kind of split on the pardoning of Trump here. Here are those that are inclined to be for pardoning.

And Nikki Haley, she said you can use the word inclined in favor of a pardon. Vivek Ramaswamy, he is making it a lead part of his campaign. He held up the paper with his commitment to pardon him. Governor DeSantis very inclined to grant clemencies.

He talks about it when you turn the page. Tim Scott's not ready to discuss hypotheticals. Chris Christie implying that if it's a fair trial, he wouldn't pardon him. And of course it's wrong.

Trump's blotting out the sun. So if you don't take him on on the indictments, you're not going to get any coverage. No, that's exactly right. He is the all consuming part of the Republican primary right now.

Now he's pointing out, I get the point. We're not having votes yet. So maybe if you're gonna eventually take that knives out, you wanna wait till you get closer to when the votes begin. Rather harder for him for the next three or four or five months.

I think the real strategy though is they're just waiting for Trump to beat himself because right now none of them can beat him. So they're waiting for him to work really well. They did have prosecutions in 2015, 2016. Maybe this will be different.

That's the theory. There's not. This is not the end of the criminal justice systems handling of Donald Trump. There may be a third and even a fourth indictment at some point.

The calculation is, does that begin to weigh him down? Are we seeing that the Fifth Avenue moment come to life? Yeah, this is it. This is Fifth Avenue diamond.

I think that's what we're looking at. Look, I take the point that these campaigns are making that they don't want to go after him right now. That might be too early, but come on, he's the frontrunner. If you don't make this argument, you're never going to convince voters that they should back away from Donald Trump.

If you don't make this argument, I think there's this misperception among the Republican rank and file that nobody in Washington, Republicans in Washington, none of the candidates opposing him actually think this is serious, are concerned about this. When in reality we know we're all having conversations with them. They're saying to us privately, wow, this is bad. And they look, they're right.

He's on tape. Basically. This is what you hear from Republicans privately. And then they say in public I'm really concerned about Hillary Clinton injustice department.

But how deep of a hole can they dig though? Because as you said, this is only going to get worse if there are indictments out of Georgia. You've already the indictment out of New York. These are things that they can't even pardon.

So they can't even use that argument when talking about it. As things get progressively and progressively worse, where can Republican House members go past? You know, once you put a lock on the bathroom door, it's essentially the same thing. I mean, they've reached such a low point.

How much further can they take? I think it will do long term damage. Let me bring up though a concern that some Democrats are having that the White House is being too quiet about this. We had some reporting over the weekend.

Kimberly won Anonymous staffer It's malpractice to let them dominate. Referring to Trump to fill in the blanks here. Biden's ally should be hitting him hard. Donor I don't think it's sustainable to say nothing.

Another strategy is a lot of base normals allowing him to fight on his own church. Look, we've heard this before. You know, he fills, he fills the vacuum. This happened with Mueller.

Mueller didn't say a word, never defended his work. Jack Smith doesn't defend it's because it would be inappropriate to do so. And Trump uses those norms to his advantage. But should Biden's folks, should Democrats be leaning anymore?

Well, here Biden's in a weird position, right? He's in two roles. One, he's the President of the United States. And in that role, he's absolutely right that the president does not have any power and should not have any power to influence the Justice Department.

He is also the presumptive nominee for the Democratic Party in the presidential. And Donald Trump is his opponent. And is this an electability issue? You bet it is.

And so he has to find a way to be able to talk about the rule of law and explain why it's so important. And somebody who absolutely flouts it is unfit for office while at the same time keeping his hands off the Justice Department as a commander. I think they'd like to run against Donald Trump. So they don't want to do this right now.

And it's important to. There are some real concerns that Republicans raise that are more than just about Islam, about the way the Department of Justice and the FBI has conducted itself, particularly during the Trump administration. There are legitimate concerns raised by the Department of Justice inspector general. The Republicans can point to.

I think there are legitimate beefs that Republicans make about Hillary Clinton, non prosecution of Hillary Clinton. Those are fair points. If Democrats were to pile on now in a public way, Joe Biden especially, and go after Trump on this indictment, they would just be validating all those concerns from Republicans. Joe Biden, sort of, it's sparked.

She goes, I can't believe Republicans are saying I'm a little bit surprised. She said, that was like the tiptoe. It was like the float, if you will. I just, I think this conversation that was bringing us back to where we started this discussion, which is half of Republicans don't believe that the Department of Justice is a fair institution.

Half of Republicans, roughly a polling over the last eight to 12 months, just don't think that the DOJ or the FBI is worthy of their favorability, if you will. That is a huge and bigger macro issue playing out over the course of next multiple years for a party that, as you know, has long been built on this idea of long order. And to shift away from that is really interesting. You know, it does beg the question, what's worse?

Bringing this charge and not getting a conviction or bringing this charge, getting the conviction and living fall out of that feels like these are just nothing to add up. Yeah, but you ask the question, right? What if you have this set of facts and you don't bring charges? What does that say about justice?

Is there in fact a good, ideal, free card for president? You can do anything you want and nobody ever hold you accountable. That's a problem, especially if they just sort of hang over the illusion that I could start violence. Anyway, when we come back, more my interview with former Vice President Mike Pence on why he's challenging his former running in 2016.

Donald Trump promised the governor as a conservative, but he makes no such problems today. Welcome back. Former Vice President Mike Pence, who loyally served Trump for four years, is now making the case for running against it. I said don't ask Pence.

Why challenge this former boss now, would you be running against Donald Trump if January if he did not ask you to file a hero? Had he accepted the results of the election and now he's running again without that, would you would you still be challenging him? I, I would leave that to historians to speculate that shock. I would tell you at the end of the day he did.

And you know, I always hope he'd come around on this. As I said recently, look, no, let me explain to you. I always hope you'd come around on this issue. Yeah.

Because I, I believe no one who puts himself over the Constitution should ever be President of the United States. And I'd hope that President Trump would eventually see that he'd been misled by the so called legal experts that advised him wrongly about the role that he thought I had and still thinks I had that day. But also I would honestly tell you, check. We have, we have other differences other than that day.

I spoke about it in my announcement speech. I mean, it's not just looking at the past, but it's the direction of the country, the direction of the Republican Party in the future. I mean, I'm pro life. I don't apologize for it.

But after leading the most pro life administration in American history and now my former running mate has taken to calling some pro life bills at the state level too harsh and yesterday too harsh. You disreal. I do. But he also blamed electoral losses in 2022 on overturning Roe versus Wade.

Look, I think that cause of life is, has been the animating force of the conservative movement of the republic. What do you think 2022 is about? Was it more about Donald Trump or was it more about abortion? Look, candidates have focused on the future.

Candidates are focused on the challenges facing the American people in 2022 did very well. Candidates who were focused on the past were focused on relegating the past did not do well even where we should. That's not the only difference is on the right to left. Two other issues.

Yeah. That I spoke about in my announcement and I remember you saying a few weeks back you always pay attention to announcements because you know the candidate probably wrote every word. I know that's right. I believe two other issues I think bear upon the life of the nation of great consequence, where the president and I are departed ways.

Because look, in 2016, Donald Trump promised to govern as a conservative and I'm proud to say that we did for four years under the Trump Pence administration. But he makes no such promise today. Not only has he been walking away from a clear commitment to the right to life, but look, we have a national debt the size of our nation's economy. Joe Biden's policy is insolvency.

He won't Even talk about the 70% of the federal budget that represents entitlements is driving that debt. President Trump. Donald Trump's position on the national debt is identical to Joe Biden's. And to me, the Republican Party has to be the party of growth and fiscal responsibility and reform.

I think we owe it to. To those, Those kids of mine and yours, to my granddaughters, to square our shoulders and, and be straight with the American people about the magnitude of this national debt on this issue. It's an unpopular issue. You're the reason.

I mean, Donald Trump takes these items off the table because it attracted more voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Look, I get it. I get it. But I think.

I think the fact that Joe Biden came into office, spent $2 trillion in completely unnecessary spending and ignited the worst inflation in 40 years, the American people are onto it. That as the government racks up debt, the cost of living is going up in this country. It's affecting their family budgets. And I think they're ready for a serious conversation that says, look, we can preserve and protect Social Security and Medicare for people that are in retirement and who will retire the next 25 years, but for younger Americans to turn us away from that debt crisis that they're facing, we've got to bring forward common sense and compassion, retirement age.

I think all these issues for younger Americans are on the table, including allowing younger Americans to invest a portion of their payroll tax in a personal savings account. I call. I say, take a New Deal program, make a better deal, give them a better rate of return than they have in the government. You realize the politics of this has never worked.

Every time someone's proposed, whether it was. Why do you think the public ready to stop to listen on this? Well, again, I think it's because they know the country's in a lot of trouble. We have.

We have a debt the size of our nation's economy for the first time since World War II. And inflation's gone up 16% in the last two and a half years. It's crushing the family budgets of millions of Americans, two thirds of which are living paycheck to paycheck. They're starting, in my judgment, to understand that as government racks up debt, inflation is happening and it's crushing the purchasing power of America.

So we've got to reform it. Last issue, though. There's a difference, and that's about America's place in the world. Look, I think America's the leader of the free world.

We're the arsenal of democracy. Under our administration, we made the largest Increase in investment, our national defense in 40 years. And then we unleash the American military to take down the ISIS caliphate, take down the world's most dangerous terrorists. We even confronted the Russians in Syria, took out 100 Russian soldiers without one American casualty.

And Russia never even attempted to redraw international alliance by force. During our administration, we did peace through strength. Now, my former running mate, seeing war raging in Eastern Europe, is signaling an ambiguous message. I'm not even able to say who he would prefer to see win the war in Ukraine.

Why? I think the United States needs to stand by the courageous fighters in Ukraine, give them the resources more quickly than Joe Biden has to take the fight to the Russians and repel this invasion. What do you tell your former colleagues in the House Republican Conference who don't share this view? Well, look, I respectfully disagree.

Ronald Reagan in 1985 coined what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine. That was, if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the tools to fight them there so we don't have to fight him here. Joe Biden has done such a terrible job explaining the importance of repelling the Russian invasion and supporting the military Ukraine, and he's been delivering the equipment slowly. He promised 33 Abrams tanks in January.

They're still not there yet, and they're continuing to drag their feet on aircraft. But look, international interest. Half your party that doesn't want that. It doesn't even want what he's been sending.

Yeah, well, it's. Number one, it's not half. And number two. Look, I just think.

I think the skepticism about support for the military in Ukraine is more a reflection of lack of confidence in Joe Biden's commander in chief than it is any other issue. Also, this is going to take his leadership, having a president that says the American people. It is in our national interest to see the Russian military repelled from Ukraine, not for Joe Biden talks about glossy goals of democracy. No, I mean, look, if Russia overruns Ukraine, I predict you it would not be too long before the Russian army cross the border where our men and women in uniform would have to go and fight by crossing into a NATO ally.

Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. And I also believe that by giving Ukraine the ability to repel the Russian invasion, we will send a deafening message to China that the wider world will not tolerate them using force to redraw international lines in Taiwan or anywhere in the Asia Pacific. For the sake of the campaign, do Americans deserve a verdict in Trump's case? Before the polls, before the election.

Well, I. I expect they'll get it. You'd like to see this trial take place before the election. Public should know before the election whether these allegations are true.

Well, look, I think the president should have the right to bring his defense in a court of law, and if he's found to be guilty of every right, as every American does, to pursue an appeal and resolve the issue. I also believe the American people would be greatly heartened, given the controversy. The evidence has come out publicly, the 100 Biden laptop, all the allegations, even. Even news that broke in the last few weeks.

The American people would be heartened to see the Department of Justice move against Hunter Biden, move against the accusations against the Biden family, and continue to pursue just as aggressively an investigation into President Biden's mishandling and classified documents. We got to restore confidence in the rule of law. I want to talk a little bit more about your campaign, which I'm sure you'll be pleased about Trump's legal issues. Who is a Pence supporter, and how does it differentiate right now from a Trump supporter?

If you are the Republican nominee and you're going to win over Trump's supporters at some point, but right now they're not 40, how do you convince them? Because he's angry at you. They're angry at you. Well, look, I think that the people around the country, as I've traveled the last two years, have, in the main, very humbling views about me and my family.

I mean, I've been stopped in airports and grocery stores and gas stations by Americans of every political persuasion who thanked me for my service to the country. How many more were MAGA hats and particularly thanked me for the stand that I took on that tragic day? There are people that were MAGA hats with them. Look, I know the people in our movement, and I can honestly tell you that they're some of the best people in this country.

They love America and they love our Constitution. And I have every confidence as we carry our campaign forward and we articulate not only the way we have faith with the Constitution on Monday, but our determination to lead our party on that broad conservative agenda that's delivered not just great victories for the Republican Party, but for the American people over the last 50 years. I have every confidence that this party will come together after a good and vigorous primary and will deliver a great victory in 2024. You confident that if Donald Trump does not have the most delegates that he would concede the Republican nomination?

I am confident that Republican primary voters are going to sort all this out in the months. Will he accept defeat? Look, you saw him once not accept defeat. Do you believe he will accept defeat in this primary?

I understand. I understand your preoccupation with my former running mate, Chuck. Republican primary voters know the stakes in this election. They know that we've not just got to win, but we've got to steer our country back to the things that have made America strong and prosperous and free.

I'm confident they're going to choose a standard bearer that will hold up those conservative values. And I believe in all my heart that I'll be that nominee and will lead our party and more importantly, our country, to a great victory in 2024. You see my full interview with former Vice President Mike [email protected] for transparency purposes, you'll see it completely untouched as the country celebrates. Juneteenth this week on ETH Press Reports, we take a look at the fight over reparations starting in the state of California, whether America should pay its black citizens for hundreds of years of slavery, Jim Crow, segregation and other forms of institutional racism.

This is a theoretical this could start happening in California soon. Watch our latest episode of Media Press Reports on Peacock or YouTube or right after this broadcast on NBC News. Now, when we come back, it is not uncommon for former to be jailed or prosecuted after leaving office, at least around the world. We'll show you why it's not exactly unprecedented for democracy.

Data Download a sense welcome back. Data Download time. Donald Trump's reigning this week was a watershed event for this country. But according to our friends At Axios, since 1980, about half the nations in the world have seen former leaders jailed or prosecuted living in quite a few democracies.

In fact, among leaders who have Left office after 2000, there are 7,600 where we have seen leaders jailed or prosecuted. Let's look at a few of these cases. We're going to start with Central and South America in Guatemala. We're going to start there.

Former President Elena and his vice president Rosanna Baldadi both found guilty corruption last year of possible but guilty to attempting a launder $2.5 million through US banks. In Panama, former president Farnelli van called his hand trial and ass laundering pro. And of course that international corruption scandal in Brazil took down President Lula. But he was able to run for office again and win the presidency after his case was annulled.

Let's go to Europe. In France, former President Nicholas Sarkozy must wear an ankle wrist for a year after he lost his appeal of a corruption conviction. And that follows the convictions of former President Sharaf and Prime Minister Bilon. Let's go to Israel, where Bibi Netanyahu is currently on trial for corruption charges, even as he currently serves as prime minister.

His predecessor, Omer, served 16 months in prison for accepting bribes and obstructing justice. In South Korea, former President Park Geun Hye served five years in prison for corruption charges. And just this past week, former Thai Prime Minister Seville Bernalconi passed away at age 86. Well, he too had some rushes with blog.

He's investigated a lot. He ended up with one conviction for tax fraud in 2013. And guess what? Donald Trump wasn't even the only former government leader to be arrested this week.

Meet Nicola Sturgeon, the former first minister of Scotland. She was arrested for financial misconduct, but she was later released without being charged. Any further investigation. So what happened to Trump this week may have been unprecedented in the United States, but for many other democracies and countries, it's not exactly a groundbreaking development.

When we come back, why some Republicans are looking to run further to the right from Donald Trump. Will it work? Welcome back. I want to pick up one part of the conversation we finish, and that is this idea.

Hallie is on Biden. Should Biden pardon Trump? Mark Beeson and Daniel Pleka, who's a familiar face on the panel every now and then, made it. I thought they made a pretty compelling argument as to why maybe President Biden not a considered pardon of Trump.

He's not gonna do. There'd be a lot of political consequences here. But it does get at the fact that nobody believes Trump should sit in prison. Part of the reason for that, Jock, is because of what we've seen in the days after the indictment with some of these, if not overt suggestions of violence, at least allusions to it.

But, you know, comments like war, war phase, we're entering eye for an eye, et cetera. There is after January 6th, the very real threat that violence can occur because of something that Donald Trump may push. I think that's where a lot of concern comes in. Tyler, where do you want this?

Yeah, I think I used to think that it was a good idea that Nixon was hardened in order to keep the country together. I now think that it's one of the biggest mistakes that has made in the history of our government. I may share that to you because I wonder, would we be thinking about this differently today had we had the premise say no one's blah, blah, blah, right. I think we'd be in a total.

We very well may be in a totally different place today if we did not have that and if there was, it was clear that there would be consequences, including criminal ones, for flouting the rule of law. Think that's one of. I think that would be a terrible idea. And I have to trust.

I think after what happened on January 6, the prosecutions of the people who were there. I think that's one reason why we haven't seen the violence when he was indicted about. We haven't seen violence everywhere into. In the Justice Department when there are consequences for them.

It also should be consequences. The difference on Nixon for though, is that Nixon had accepted a measure of accountability by resigning it. Right. He was disgraced.

And what Ford was saying is we don't need disgrace him further to agree that Watergate was bad and that Nixon did a bad thing. That's not the case here. There's no measure of accountability if he gives him a harder at this point. And that's a different historical.

Hey, Steve. Hey. I want to pivot this clip because we're low on time, but Rhonda Santos was on the Christian Broadcasting Network and he's trying to hit Donald Trump for being soft. In theory, maybe there is room to Trump's right to beat him there on the issue, at least in state of Iowa.

But is that something that works? Yeah, I think I went particular and in a Republican primary more generally, you'll find Republican voters who work for life and probably will respond to that kind of argument. The question is whether the Republican Party in an ideological place anymore. It was so interesting listening to Mike Pence discussion that you had.

He's trying to say we ought to have a big debate about the size and scope of Congress. You want to have a debate about what the Republican Party should be. Yeah. What the Republican Party should be and should the Republican Party still a limited government party.

You had heard that debate really for eight years in the Republican Party. I think with Ron DeSantis on the abortion question, given what he's done in Florida, it sort of surprised me that he hasn't run it to this point. Remember, he was sort of shy about it. Now he's running.

They are nervous. It makes him less likely. Well, it's also part of the strategy in the primary, which they have to win in order to even get to a general right. It's not just going to be the issue of reproductive rights.

The strategy from those that I talk to who are in the Senate sort of is to run to red Donald Trump about all these so called cultural warriors, which is worse when the ideology of the party is on education, right. On LGBTQ rights on issues like abortion and to show that Ron DeSantis can win on those issues that Donald Trump cannot. I've heard this argument. I've heard the argument.

Yeah. Well, I've looked at an environment we can try go back 2016 over again and we do see a fragmented feeling which alcohol obviously prophesied like that. But I think the context is different. And you're hearing Janus say now there should be he didn't build a wall, which is of course his mean argument in 2016.

Before we go one year after the landmarks record to decision overturn, Roby we press will be examining its impact, what it means for the future of this country and your politics. You can watch our Meet the Press special on abortion this Thursday evening at 10:30 Eastern Time on NBC News Now. And after that, on demand on YouTube and be. Com.

That is all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, let's MEET the press. Joy Father, foreign.

I'm Dylan Dryer, co host of the third hour of TODAY and mom to three wild boys. I've learned a lot my years as a parent, mostly that I don't have it all figured out yet. And I'm not the only one. This is my new podcast, the Parent Chat.

Each week I sit down with someone new for honest conversation and real world advice about parenting. I'm over here just like winging it. Hey, I'm trying not to. My own idea of my video search, parent chat on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.