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Search glass half-full with Craig Malph, and from today on YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. This Sunday, armed rebellion, Russian President von der Beggouten's hold on power is challenged after his mercenary chief appears to turn on him. Fighters from the Wagner group push towards Moscow after taking control of the Russian military headquarters, running the Ukraine war operation. But hours later, the militias stopped its advance and turned around.
What happens next? And how should the U.S. respond? I'll talk to the U.S.
Secretary of State Antony Blick and former U.S. Ambassador to Russia, Michael McFall. Plus, Russia's weakness, Ukrainian President Zelensky, sees Russia's internal crisis as an opportunity at a critical moment in the war. His world saw that the bosses of Russia do not control anything.
What does this crisis mean for the Ukrainians and the less support for them? I'll speak with Democratic Senator Andy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska. And political strengths and weaknesses. Our new NBC poll reveals Republican primary voters are unmoved by Donald Trump's legal trouble.
Probably the only person in history in this country that's been indicted and my numbers went up. The former president has expanded his lead over his primary rivals, even after facing federal criminal charges. I had every right to have these documents. And yet, President Biden, who has his own weaknesses, still leads Donald Trump by four points.
Joining me for insight and analysis are New York Times Chief White House correspondent Peter Baker, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander James DeVries, and Applebaum of the Atlantic, and Danielle Plucka of the American Enterprise Institute. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press. From NBC News and Washington, the longest running show in television history.
This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd. Good Sunday morning. It has been a head-spinning 24 hours, as Vladimir Putin has seen, the most significant threat to his power, since he took leadership in the earlier quarter century ago. The mutiny by the head of the mercenary militia of the Wagner Group comes at a pivotal moment in the war in Ukraine, and erases questions about Putin's hold on power in Russia.
Is he a lame duck? On Saturday, Yevgeny Pragozin ordered his mercenaries to halt a march on Tamaskau, and retreat to field camps in Ukraine after claiming to seize several military facilities, including the Southern Military District headquarters in the southern city of Rostopodont. It's the equivalent of a rogue army taking over Senkam in Tampa, a US military operations center, and then marching onto the Pentagon. Now Putin had promised to crush this armed mutiny, and he accused Pragozin of treason.
Pragozin accused Russia's defense minister, Sarah Gaye Shogu of starting the Ukraine war, and then denying Wagner-Fighters ammunition. Pragozin forces drove to within 200 miles from Moscow, and then as quickly as his crisis erupted, it ended. And shockingly, it wasn't Putin, the strong man, who announced the deal, and the fact that it was a deal. But Belarus, Russia's ally, which offered Pragozin amnesty in the country.
We don't know if he's there yet. Notably, Putin blamed internal turmoil. He didn't do a rant against the West for this, for what he called a stab in the back, underscoring how weak he appeared. Pragozin, also known as Putin Chef for owning a chain of restaurants that were a Putin hangout before he got to power, was responsible for sowing disinformation of the 2016 US election as the founder of the Internet Research Agency.
And then it was in 2014 that Pragozin founded the mercenary army known as the Wagner Group, which has been recruiting Russian convicts to fight in Ukraine to prop up a struggling Russian military. So this Russian mutiny has raised a number of questions about Russia's resolve to continue to fight a war in Ukraine, that Putin was supposed to easily win. On Saturday, Ukraine's president Zelensky said that Russia's weakness is obvious. That's the one you see for my question.
The world saw that the bosses of Russia do not control anything. Was that nothing at all? Complete chaos. And joining me now is the Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken.
Secretary Blinken, welcome back to the press. Thanks, Chuck. Let me just start with your observations. What did we just see over the weekend?
The reason I asked that is because, look, this is a country that misinformation is a feature, not a bug. Sometimes there's theater. What should we believe with what we just witnessed in the last 48 hours in Russia? Well, Chuck, if you put this in perspective, what we've seen is extraordinary.
Think about it this way. Sixteen months ago, Russian forces were on the doorstep of Kyiv in Ukraine, believing they would take the capital in a matter of days and erase the country from the map as an independent country. Now what we've seen is Russia having to defend Moscow, its capital, against mercenaries of its own making. So in and of itself, that's extraordinary.
And in so doing, we've also seen rise to the surface profound questions about the very premises for this Russian aggression against Ukraine, that the progression surfaced very publicly, as well as a direct challenge to Putin's authority. So I think we've seen more cracks emerge in the Russian facade. It is too soon to tell exactly where they go and when they get there. But certainly, we have all sorts of new questions that Putin is going to have to address in the weeks and months ahead.
What was amazing is what wasn't said. Vladimir Putin didn't blame the West for this. Didn't blame it during his very strident speech, nor the after the fact, what do you make of that? It's hard to put myself in Putin's head or precautions for that matter, and keep in mind, both individuals responsible for terrible acts committed against the Ukrainian people.
Also, in the case of Wagner, in country after country in Africa, wherever Wagner goes, death and destruction and exploitation follow. But I think it does point to the fact that this is an internal matter. This is a challenge coming from within to Putin. And that's where his focus has been.
Our focus is resolutely and relentlessly on Ukraine, making sure that it had what it needs to defend itself. And to take back to our toward the Russian disease, the president brought together the national security cabinet. He brought together our key allies and partners to make sure that the unity of purpose, the unity of action that we've had with regard to Ukraine remains. And it does.
The president of Belarus apparently mediated this. That seemed startling because this is somebody that is portrayed by many Western analysts, is simply a puppet of Putin. Puppets don't often mediate their puppeteers here. So what do you make of this?
Are we underestimating Belarus here? I think it's important for us not to speculate. And I suspect that we'll learn more and more in the days and weeks ahead, including the actual details of whatever deal was struck. It may be that Putin didn't want to base himself to the level of negotiating directly with Pragotan.
So it was useful to get someone like Lukashenko into this on his behalf. But again, that is speculation. We want to avoid that. We want to focus on the facts.
And we want to keep the focus on Ukraine. There were some reports over the weekend that US intelligence analysts seemed to think something was up. How what you ended up seeing versus what the intelligence said, how accurate was it? Well, Chuck, I'm obviously not going to comment on intelligence matters.
What I can say is this. I think it's been no secret to many people over many months that these tensions were rising. They were brewing. Pragotan was already saying some rather extraordinary things about Russia's conduct of the war in Ukraine and going directly at Russia's military leadership.
So this was a rising storm. But I'm not going to comment on the intelligence itself. The dismantling of the Wagner group, first of all, do you believe it's being dismantled? And if so, what does this mean in Africa and Syria?
Too soon to tell. We'll see if this means that Wagner forces are coming out of Ukraine. I mean, the very fact that over the weekend, Wagner forces were coming out of Ukraine and going into Russia and toward Moscow in and of itself is extraordinary. But where this goes, whether those forces remain in Ukraine, whether they become integrated into the regular Russian military, what it means for Wagner and Africa, too soon to tell.
But the fact that this is, at the least, an added distraction for Putin and for Russia, I think is to the advantage of Ukraine. It continues to move forward with the counter-offensive. These are early days, but they haven't had what they need to be successful. It's going to unfold over weeks and even months.
But this just creates another problem for Putin. And keep this in mind, too, Chuck. This is just the latest chapter in a book, a failure that Putin has written for himself and for Russia economically, militarily, it's standing in the world. All of those things have plummeted.
We have a United NATO that's stronger than ever before. Europe is weaning itself off of Russian energy. Ukraine, that Putin has managed to alienate and unite at the same time. Now, with trouble brewing from within, this, as I said, just adds more questions that he has to finance this for.
I know that with no changes to their nuclear posture, was there open communication on that front, military to military, on the nuclear issue over the weekend or not? Chuck, I'm not going to get into what diplomatic or other communications we had with Russia, but of course, we're very focused anytime there's instability in a major country like Russia, particularly one with nuclear weapons. There has been no change in their nuclear posture. There's no change in our nuclear posture.
But it's something that we're watching very carefully. Does the instability give you hope that there's an opening for the American citizens that are being held captive in Russia right now? Or do you fear there's going to be a clamp down and this will make it harder? I don't want to speculate on that.
We're, as always, regardless of anything else that's happening. Intensely focused on making sure that we do everything possible to bring home Americans who are unjustly or arbitrarily detained, including in Russia, that focus will remain. Does this go to full speed ahead for the Ukraine counter-offensive? Is this a moment of opportunity?
Chuck, it is full speed ahead for the counter-offensive. But they have a plan. They have a very deliberate plan. They're prosecuting that plan.
And we have more than 50 countries that continue to support them in that effort to make sure that they have everything they need to do as well as they can in taking back the land that's seized from them by Russia over the last 16 months. That is in train, but it's going to take some time. Weeks, maybe even months. There are very strong defenses that the Russians have built up in recent months that the Ukrainians are working their way through.
But at the end of the day, the bottom line really is this. And it's the reason that Ukraine will prevail. This is about their land. This is about their future.
This is about their freedom, not Russia's. And that is, in a sense, the real difference maker that you're going to see unfold. We originally booked you to talk about your China visit. That's why you were to come on and I want to ask you, within 24 hours after you leave China, President Biden refers to Xi Jinping as a dictator.
And the Chinese government chose to be offended. And the reason I word it that way is they didn't have to. We know this. A lot of times countries, domestic rhetoric is domestic political rhetoric.
We ignore rhetoric sometimes with countries overseas. Why do you believe the Chinese decide to be so publicly angry over this comment? Chuck, I can't put myself in their minds. What I can say is this.
I want to try to bring a little bit more stability to the relationship. We have an obligation to responsibly manage that relationship. China does as well and we hear that from countries around the world. And restoring strong lines of communication, making sure that we can talk directly about the many and profound differences we have, as well as looking for places that we might be able to cooperate.
That's important. And I think we put that in train. But part of my visit was to tell them very clearly that we're going to continue to do things and we're going to continue to say things that you don't like or won't like, just as you're doing things and saying things that we don't like. But we have to work our way through them.
So no apology for the dictator comment is coming. Again, I've been very clear that we will continue to do as we've always done, which is to stand up for our interests, stand up for our values and say what we think. And at the same time, again, they're doing the same thing. Are we going to prevent China from having a military base on the island of Cuba?
We have been not only looking, but also engaging in a number of countries over the last couple of years, where China's trying to get a foothold and we've been engaged diplomatically in a number of places. And we've had some success in either preventing that, delaying that or turning that around. We continue to do that. I've raised that directly with my Chinese counterparts.
They know where we stand on that issue. I noticed you say you raised it with your Chinese counterparts. We don't, we have no relations still with Cuba. I mean, this decision to pull back relations with Cuba, did we not just throw them into the arms of the Chinese?
No, we actually have raised this with the Cubans as well. So they also, for them, there's no secret about the concerns that we have and the fact that we're watching this very carefully. Are we going to make sure it doesn't happen? Is this a line in the sand?
Again, we've made clear that this is a real concern. And as I said, in a variety of places where China's trying to get a foothold militarily or with intelligence, we've been not only looking at that, we've been taking action to try to push back and we've had some success. All right, Secretary Blinken, Secretary of State, I know it was a long weekend. Appreciate you coming up and Sharon.
Thanks for having me with your perspective. Thank you, sir. And joining me now is former US ambassador to Russia, Mike McFaw. Welcome back to meet the press.
You're playing criminal knowledge as far as you heard the secretary say they're not wanting to speculate. You can speculate. So let me, let's start with there. What did we just witness?
It's a similar question I asked Secretary Blinken. And how weak do you think Vladimir Putin is right now? Well, it was a mutiny. Mr.
Progoshin made it very clear that he wanted to punish the armed forces of Russia for the way they've been fighting in Ukraine and for the way they attacked him. It was an extraordinary operation. This was not just something he woke up one day and said, let's go to Moscow. It's clear there was a lot of planning.
And the fact that our intelligence allegedly knew about it in mid-June, of course, the Russian intelligence must have known about it as well and yet did nothing to stop it. And Putin then got on TV and made a very strong statement, Chuck. He was like, we're going to take, we're going to crush these guys like a bug. These are traders.
And then several hours later negotiated. So the fear of escalation, you know, we've been talking about this a lot, Chuck, in Ukraine. He needs an exit strategy. He needs to say phase.
If we push him here, he's going to escalate. When push came to shove this time, he capitulated. So who blinked more here for goes in or Putin? Oh, Putin.
There's no doubt in my mind. You know, he did not use force. He could have attacked these forces as they're marching up a road that I used to drive all the time. He killed 12 helicopter pilots.
Not exactly. That's why to me, it's very clear that in this game of chicken, it was Putin that stepped down. And it's strange to me that he gave that big speech. Had he not given that speech, it would look a lot different.
But he gave this big speech, saying they're traders. And then several hours later, he decided to negotiate. And don't get me wrong, I understand why he did. He did not want to spark a civil war.
These are real fighters. But there's no doubt that he looks weak in the eyes of lots of people inside Russia. I think lots of people outside of Russia as well. You expect there to be a new defense minister, sir?
I don't know. Of course, there's lots of reports that that was part of the deal. Right. And if that's true, that's even another sign of Putin's weakness.
If Progogen was able to get that, but we have to wait and see, we have not seen exactly what was in those negotiations. What do you make of Belarus playing a media role here again? He's supposed to be the puppy. And I don't, right, that's what a lot of people assume here.
Are we send questions and ask the secretary of state? Are we underestimating Belarus here? Is he a strengthening copo to speak in mob terms? I don't think so.
I think he's a puppet of Putin, Putin wanted him to do this. But remember, Progogen is too. That's what's so strange about this whole thing. Progogen's been very close to Putin for a long, long time.
I just think Putin wanted some distance. I agree with Secretary Blinken here. He didn't want to be the direct interlocutor, but was Lukashenko doing exactly what Putin wants? That's my assessment.
And is this universally, this is a positive for the war in Ukraine for the Ukrainians? Or is there any chance here that Putin's desperate and might do something stupid? Well, it's definitely a positive. When Russian forces are threatening to fight each other rather than fighting the Ukrainian army, that's good for Ukraine.
Putin looks a lot weaker today than he did 48 hours. That's good for Ukraine. That doesn't mean, however, that there's going to be some breakthrough as a result of this. The basic fighting forces that Russia have in Ukraine haven't changed.
The Wagner folks had left already. But on your escalation point, Chuck, I think it's a really important one because we've been debating this now for many, many months. And even the Biden administration from time to time has made decisions not to provide weapons to the Ukrainian, certain types of weapons because they worry about escalation. But let's remember what we just witnessed here.
Putin had the opportunity to escalate. He told the world and his people, he was going to escalate. And then he blinked. I think that to me may be the most important lesson from this mutiny in Russia for the word in Ukraine.
That this notion that he's going to double down and escalate, one, he may not want to, and B, he may not have the means to do so. Or maybe even the moral authority over his troops. Back in the fall. Former ambassador to Russia.
Always good to get your perspective. Thank you, sir. When we come back, I'm going to get reactions from two key members of Congress, Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar and Republican Congressman Don Fakk. Get the best of NBC news with a subscription.
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Imagine that. Subscription automatically renews each year at $65.99 plus taxes and fees until canceled. Robert ends May 20th, 2026. This week is March on Moscow by Armorsonaries or near March onto Moscow.
His light and her Putin faces his most significant threat to his power in more than two decades. Now is Democratic Senator Klobuchar. What do you want us to do to all shake your resolve about what we're doing in Ukraine? The opposite.
We saw here a demonstrable crack in Vladimir Putin's strength. We saw visible rejection of his war policy by someone who had been an ally and now it turned into insubordination, taking over a city of a million people, marching his troops and his tanks within 124 miles of Moscow. And then you see Putin having to condemn this on their own country's TV. That's what happened.
And then on the other side, and by the way, this was a guy that had hired mercenaries in Syria and Libya. Someone had started an internet troll farm in Moscow to attack the American elections. And then on the other side, you see President Zelensky, who has governed with moral authority, who has brought his people with him, not through fear, but through their own patriotism and wanting to protect the sovereignty of their country. And you now see this counter-offensive.
We always knew it would be a slog. But he is advancing. And as of Monday, I think, taking over eight towns. Having to choose between Putin and Pergosan is not a choice anybody wants to have to make.
I mean, you look at our philosophy in Russia. We fear a strong Russia and we fear a weak Russia. We want something in between because they're in nuclear power. But what's the best U.S.
role, the best thing that the U.S. can do to sort of encourage a that the Goldilocks approach? Well, obviously the continuing openness to nuclear discussions and nuclear safety in the Secretary of State and President have assured us that there hasn't been any change in that right now when it comes to Russia. But the second part, of course, is supporting Ukraine.
And you see a Congress that has now put forward over $40 billion in military commitments. You see a president who has really led the world's allies in standing with Ukraine. You see countries like Germany and Poland and Great Britain stepping up as no one thought before. And I noted reading themselves of their dependence on Russian oil.
Vladimir Putin has bitten off a lot more than he ever thought possible when he marched into Ukraine. I'm going to ask you a couple of political questions here. We got a new poll out. We asked various questions having to do with President Biden and his ability to do the job.
Does he have the mental and physical help to serve? The concern among Democrats has doubled since October 2020. It was only one in five Democrats that had that concern before election day 2020. It's now over 40%.
It's 43%. You were just with the president at the State Diner. Do you have any concerns? No, I don't.
He did so well at that State Diner. I think we all saw his power at the State of the Union. Our party is united behind him. Why?
Because we work in a results oriented business. Chuck. And he has gotten results added over 13 million jobs since the beginning of his presidency. When he took over, our democracy was in shambles.
We were in the middle of a pandemic. People were dying. Now we've emerged from that. The economy is moving forward.
Manufacturing in our own nation made in America is researching. We finally got veterans' healthcare done for those stationed next to burn pits. We've united our allies when it comes to Ukraine. We finally taken on the pharmaceutical companies just by everyone talking about it and passed a version of my bill which allows Medicare to negotiate for lower prices for our seniors.
Those aren't small accomplishments. Those are big deal things. I'm going to ask you before you go. I brought up the State Diner.
Do you think it was appropriate for Hunter Biden to be at the same event as the Attorney General Merrick Garland was in the same week he accepted a pre-deal? You know, I think as the president explains, that's his son. That's a separate thing. And I would like to say about that decision was made by an independent prosecutor who was a Trump appointed US Attorney who had 10 years of experience well respected.
Philadelphia Inquirer reported that he was a registered Republican. He looked at the facts and evidence and made that decision. And by the way, if that's what the Republicans want to run on in the coming election, good luck because the president is going to be able to run on the strength of his work and bring 13 million jobs back to America in researching our country and moving forward. You understand the perception issue of something like that though.
Yes, I do. And do you wish that perception was different? You always wish there were different perceptions but that's not reality. Reality is whether or not someone is going to be able to get their insulin and the president has made changes.
Reality is whether someone has a job. Reality is when they can go visit their grandma again in an assisted living. Those are people's realities. Now, who is sitting where at a state dinner?
Secretary Klobuchar, Senator Klobuchar, Democrat from Minnesota. Oh, that's not good. That'll start serverless. Thank you very much.
Very much. There you go, Chuck. Join me now from the other side of the Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska, a member of the House Armed Services Committee. He represents, by the way, one of those 18 house districts that President Biden also won in 2020.
Congressman Bacon, welcome back to me to the press. Good morning, Chuck. It's great to be with you. And I should also add he is representing the district that is the home of the college world series right now, which is always very exciting in Omaha.
It's a great game last night. Let me start with what we just saw. You've been a supporter of the Ukrainians. You've been a supporter of aiding them here, given what we watched over the weekend.
What do you say to your House Republicans who have been a bit soft on Putin after what we saw over the weekend? Do you think this will change some minds in your conference? I think it's the minority of Republicans who have been weak on this. I think the majority of us believe that we have to stand by Ukraine.
You can't let a bully do what Putin's doing. If you don't stand up to the bully, the bully will come back and won't be just Ukraine. It could be the politics or other countries next. And I think what we saw this weekend was how fragile Putin's leadership is right now, how fragile the military is the Russian military.
And why is that? They have lost 200,000 troops in this year and a half. That is almost seven times more than what America lost in 20 years of war in Iraq and Afghanistan. They've lost half their tanks.
Their air force has been depleted significantly. The only real answer here is that Putin's got to stop this war and pull out of Ukraine. If he wants to save his country, save his leadership position. I think that's really the only answer.
Is this will not get better for Putin or Russia? And I think we could even do more with the Tacos and other long-range precision weapons. I believe President Biden's been slow on us. But the bottom line is we see the fragility of Putin, their military, and they're taking significant losses.
That's why. I want to pop up something from our poll here just so you know. We asked whether you would be more likely or less likely to support a candidate who wants to more funding for the war in Ukraine. It's pretty evenly divided overall.
But among Republicans, it's two to one. Less likely. Republican primary voters, a majority of them. I know you said it's a minority in the Republican party, but a majority of Republican primary voters say they're less likely to support a candidate who wants to continue to fund this war in Ukraine.
Do you see the funding of the war in Ukraine as directly responsible for this crack in Russia with Putin? Yes, I do. I think our actions have helped Ukraine prevail to the extent that they are right. Now still, they're middle of a war, Russia controls about 10% of their country.
But without our aid, without our support, I think Ukraine would have fallen by now. And I would just like to point out, we have spent roughly 5% of our military, what we budget for our military. That's what's gone to Ukraine. And it's depleted half, roughly half of Russia's army.
So you say that's a bit of respect? 5% of our military budget depletes, 50% of theirs? Yes, that's what we've done in the last year and a half. And I think this is weak in Russia for maybe a decade to come, which is good for the Baltics countries, it's good for Poland.
And it would be different if Putin was wanting to be a peaceful neighbor, but he's not. So we see the barbaric, basically what he's doing is it's might makes right. And that's not what we want with a major nuclear country. And so I think we have a moral obligation to stand up here and help Ukraine.
I think too many Republicans have tried to stay under the radar on this. We do bust and we stand for what's right, what's truthful. And I believe that Ronald Reagan's principles of strength, what we get, peace through strength. And you've got to stand up and help out the little guy that's being beat up by the big guy.
That's something former President Trump said last night about the indictment. Let me play it for you. Whatever documents the president decides to take with him, he has the absolute right to take them. He has the absolute right to keep them or he can give them back to narrow if he wants.
It's not often that somebody who's accused of something admits it at a function there. Is there any part of that statement that's correct? I don't believe so, Chuck. We don't have a right to take top secret information to our home.
I vote with top secrets since I was 22 years old in the military for 30 years. And now in Congress, you don't show our attack plans on Iran to people are not clear or pick documents to talk about our nuclear technology or where our intelligence resources are located throughout the world. And that's what happened there. And when the government asks for a back, you give them back.
If you deny having them, but then you have them, those are crimes. I think the parting rallies around him when these things happen rather than looks at the facts like you do and say, you're not supposed to do this, sir. You know, like we have a president Biden who had classified and gave it back. When they found it, we have Mike Puts who had classified and gave it back.
But I think people see, well, there's other people who had classified, but the situations are different. I personally thought Hillary Clinton was wrong for having thousands of emails on a private server that I can guarantee you that Russia and China could penetrate and read some of those emails that were top secret. I thought she should have been hell more accountable. I think a lot of our voters see or perceive these inconsistencies, but we can't do wrong, so make a right.
You can't have hundreds of top secret information and be showing our attack plans on Iran to non-clear people. I just, I think, again, our party does bust. We stand on the rule of law, the truth of the principles that made our party strong. And if we walk away from that, we'll be weak in the short one for sure.
All right. Congressman Don Bacon, Republican from Omaha, again, home of the College World Series, one of the great annual tournaments in a great place to watch. Thanks for coming on, sharing your perspective. Thank you.
When we come back, Putin's hold on power is openly challenged for the first time in nearly two decades, but we'll have it now, our expert panelists. Welcome back. So to translate what's really happening in Russia, what it all means, I'm joined by an expert panel with a lot of Russian experience and Apple bomb, staff writer for the Atlantic author of Twilight of Democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism, former NATO Supreme Allied commander Admiral Jim Stavridis, Peter Baker, the chief White House correspondent for the New York Times, but he was also a Moscow pure chief in his days at the Washington Post and Daniel Pluck, a senior fellow for the American Enterprise Institute. Before that, she was a longtime staffer on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
So I'm very ecstatic about the amount of Russian intellect we have here. And let me start with you. Is this Putin's Twilight? Twilight is too early to talk about Twilight, but it's certainly a kind of turning point.
To me, the most interesting thing about yesterday was the way that ordinary people in the city of Rostov reacted to Wagner mercenaries. They came up to them, they smiled at them, they had selfies with them, they waved them goodbye when they left the city in the evening. These were not people who seemed very upset about violent mercenaries carrying out regime change in their country. These are not people who are going to defend Putin.
Many of our assumptions about his longevity, about his popularity may have just been exploded by yesterday's events. And so I think the weaknesses of his regime and of his power structure have just been revealed, and that is going to have consequences over the next few months. My guess is we're looking at one of two things. Either a kind of crackdown, he'll decide he needs more violence to stay in power or else more chaos, and we'll see more challenges from others.
What does this do with Pragozanhan? Does this strengthen him? Is he a true political threat to Putin's leadership? Is this somebody that might actually have eyes on this?
I actually don't see. I disagree slightly with Ambassador McFaul from a few minutes ago. I don't see the Pragozanhan come out of this well. The idea that he's going to go to mince can sit there seems very strange to me.
It seems like he's lost his fighters. Some of them are going to be absorbed into the army and that was what many people thought this was all about. He was trying to prevent that from happening. He was trying to keep his power.
And so I'm not sure what happens to him now. His decision to step down looks very much to me like weakness. I mean both Putin and he look weak. But it's not like he's got a bright future back in Russia and he's going to be safe from all the people who are angry about what he did yesterday.
What's the success from the military standpoint? What do you think we're seeing inside the Western military leadership right now? Continuing chaos really up a peace track with everything we've seen since the start of the war. You've seen terrible logistics, bad intelligence, bad leadership on the battlefield, casual use of cell phones.
In fact, these events of the last couple of days will have unearthed a treasure trove of intelligence for the United States military. In terms of Pragozan, I couldn't agree more with Anne. You know, the Game of Thrones philosophy applies here. If you go for the king, you better kill the king.
Pragozan didn't do that. He now is going to be isolated from the 35,000 fighters that have protected him. It's like a snake whose head has been cut off from its body. I don't think he'll last 60, 90 days, frankly, because Putin at his dark heart is a never-forgive, never-forget kind of person.
He'll do everything he can to wreak vengeance on Pragozan. Do you expect to have an impact on Russia's ability to wage war in Ukraine? Oh, indeed. There's the moral function of this.
The internal picture yourself is a Russian conscript watching all this unfold and they are doing so on the internet. They have access. Number two, the material that has gone into the backing and fourth in here is going to be denied number three, leadership changes potentially. As Mike McFaul said, watch what happens to show you.
Does he stay in power? Is he part of the deal? I don't know the answer. No one does.
So bottom line here, been a very good turn of events for Keats. Still a tough fight ahead, but I think this is one that ups the game for the Ukrainians. All right, Danny and Peter, let's talk about this from this side of things. What should the administration be doing?
Should they be doing anything differently than they're doing right now? No. I mean, this is a fight internal to Russia. And so from that standpoint, I don't think there's any reason that the administration needs to stand up and there are no sides to take here.
I mean, it's not as if it's not as if Big Ocean was somehow better than Putin. No, he's actually a worse version of Putin. So I think the administration is right to stay out, but it does raise the question in my mind and I suspect in the minds of a lot of people, what is our policy towards Russia? We have a Ukraine policy.
We want Russia to lose and we want Ukraine to win, but we're really not sure how much we want them to win. But what do we want for Russia? I have no idea what this administration is. View of that is.
Peter, what are you there? Yeah, I mean, look, they're abstracted yesterday, of course, with strategic silence. They don't want to give Putin any excuse to make the claim that this is some power foreign plot, essentially, hasn't made that claim yet, but you'll probably hear it at some point. But the, you know, I mean, for Putin, this is a moment of weakness and the Americans are now going to figure out whether they have an opportunity as well as a risk because of that, right?
So my wife and I in Russia, in 2000, when Putin was elected to get two main goals when he took power, one was to re-consolidate power in the Kremlin, make himself the unchallenged figure domestically and to begin to reassert power internationally, particularly in the near abroad, which is what they call Ukraine, the former Soviet states. Both of those have now been exploited, right? He does not have exclusive control of use of force on his own territory and the war in Ukraine has been a disaster and may only now get even worse with the demoralization of the troops after what's happened. And Applebaum, so if for goes in is not the person Putin now needs to fear, who are you watching in Putin's inner circle that may be eyeing the chair, if you will, to use the Game of Thrones metaphor, perhaps that they'd Jim throughout there?
I've noticed Medvedev, the former president, that he uses a lot more harsher rhetoric today than he did 10 years ago. Yes, although there are lots of jokes about Medvedev also drinking a lot more than he did a few years ago, so that could be a part of the explanation. You know, there are so many potential, you know, people who want power inside the inner circle in the Kremlin that it's, you know, it's almost risky to name them. I mean, the heads of almost all the secret services, Patrick Shev, the former prime ministers, Kisilyov is one who seems to be interested in taking power yet, taking power next.
I mean, it seems to me, and I genuinely thought up until yesterday that what Progogen was doing was not so much trying to get rid of Putin, but jockeying to be his replacement, that he was presenting himself as a kind of alternative. And in fact, at some moments, he did that rather well. I mean, in some ways, he better embodies the values, certainly of the Russian military than Putin does. He doesn't go on about imperial nonsense and history.
He doesn't talk about kind of fake Christianity that Putin sometimes does. He focuses on, you know, you know, we just want to win. We want money. We want better, you know, better weapons.
And he has a deep appeal. So the question now is whether he can ever get any of that back, which I now doubt. All right. Boy, this was a terrific panel.
I think we all went a lot when we come back. Donald Trump's lead grows even after the latest indictment of federal criminal charges. I'm gonna give you a big taste of the results of our new NBC News poll. Welcome back.
We have a brand new NBC News poll that we're releasing this morning and in it voters are deeply dissatisfied with the direction of the country. We're concerned about the mental and physical well-being of President Biden. But the story the last four years is still true today. And in this poll, the best thing for a Biden reelection campaign continues to be the presence of Donald Trump.
Just 20% of voters believe this country said in the right direction, 74% say the nation is on the wrong track. Let me tell you something about this moment. We have had this sustained period of 70% about a year now. The last two periods in the history of this poll that we've had this kind of sustained negativity about the direction of the country was before the 92 election and before the 2008 election.
Both of those changed the party controlling the White House. Now let's get into more of the poll. Biden's job rate sits at just 43% about where it's been since the withdrawal from Afghanistan. 53% disapprove.
A full 68% of voters, including 43% of Democrats now, which is twice what it was in 2020. Say they are concerned that Biden does not have the necessary mental and physical health to be president for what it's worth. When we ask the same question about Donald Trump, who's just a couple of years younger than Joe Biden, a majority also have concerns, but it is 55% of full 13 points lower than the concerns over President Biden. But in 2020 Biden won more because of who he was it than of who he was.
And in a head to head match up, Biden leads Trump by the same four points that he defeated him by in 2020, 4945. And a match up against Florida Governor Ronda Santas. You can see here, it's 4747. I'll tell you in a few minutes what that difference is and who are those swing voters.
One thing that doesn't appear to be changing voters mind so far is Donald Trump's federal indictment. Just 34% of a positive feeling towards Donald Trump, 56% feel negatively. Guess what? This hasn't changed a bit in about a year.
And although a majority of voters overall, 55% have real concerns about these federal charges against Trump, just 23% of Republicans do in primary voters. Just 16% told us they have a major concern about this. Instead, 64% of Republican primary voters call the investigation into Trump a politically motivated attempt to stop him. We asked the same question in April.
It's just four points less than what it was in April. 71% say it's important to nominate a candidate who will not be distracted by legal problems and can focus on beating body. Pay attention to that 31% of it here. I'm going to show you something in a minute.
And though only half of the Republican party, 49% say the Republican party should continue to be led by Donald Trump, the not Trumpers are not coalescing around any of Trump's rivals. Trump overperforms these numbers. And the Republican race for president, Trump leads Florida Governor Ronda Santas by 29% of points. Now, he's got 51.
The Santas, the only other candidate double digits with 22. This is actually a, this is actually nearly a doubling of what the margin was in this, in April. It was Trump was under 50, was 15% of points. And a head to head match up in Republican primary, Trump almost has a two to one lead here, 60% to 36.
So again, 49% say they don't want Trump to lead the party. And yeah, he's over performing that number. There are never Trumpers voting for Trump over to Santas. By the way, the DeSantis Co.
Voter profile there doesn't match the campaign. He's running for what it's worth. Meanwhile, the groups where Trump does lag behind the Santas in that match up against Joe Biden do offer another one inside for Trump and the Republican party if he is the nominee because they represent the most of the persuadable electorate. They're independent, they're women without college degrees, voters over 65, swing state voters, and voters who say they only somewhat disapprove of Joe Biden's presidency.
Like the soccer moms and office park dads and past cycles, this cycles key swing voter may be these somewhat disapprovers because they were huge in the 2022 midterms. And right now they're picking Biden over Trump. And of course, the other giant red flag in this bowl for Trump in the GOP, unlike previous Supreme Court decisions on interracial or same-sex marriage, public support for the decision of returning Roe v. Wade is not growing.
If anything, it's moving away a year after the job's decision. It has become even more unpopular. 61% of voters disapprove, just 36% unapproved. There's a massive generational gap there, by the way, for what it's worth.
When we come back, we're going to look back to 1991 in Moscow, where Boris Yeltsin stood on the same. And what one prominent American leader said, as Russia embraced democracy briefly for the very first time. Do you think Boris Yeltsin can clean this problem up any better than Mikhail Gorbachev could? I think a couple of months.
First of all, I share with you four, everyone else feels at the events of the last week. It's a phenomenal week in the history world. Secondly, there are enormous problems ahead. Third, Yeltsin by virtue of the fact that he's been elected has legitimacy that's derived from the consent of the government.
That's an enormously important point. And I think that he probably will be in a very strong position now to move forward with economic reform by virtue of the fact that he does represent the people of Russia. Welcome back. That of course was then Secretary of Defense to Cheney, just two months after another pivotal moment in Russian history when Boris Yeltsin became Russia's first democratically elected president after 70 years of communist rule.
And it was just days after hardliners attempted to goo, which failed. We can Gorbachev. It's strengthened Yeltsin and it led to the full collapse of the Soviet Union four months later. So Peter and Danny here.
Russia never took after the 90s. Well, the big difference then and now is there are people there we cheered for today with the Goshum Putin. There's two squirking in the bottle if they kill each other. It never did take you right.
Because it wasn't a complete collapse. They never actually believed that the system had failed. And basically grievance and victim who became the dominating theme that capitalized on. Danny, know what else?
No, there are lots of what ifs. But there are people. There are candidates inside Russia. There's Alexin of only who's in prison who's got a ten-year sentence.
There's Vladimir Karamurza, another great Russian patriot. These are candidates for a better Russia. I think there's an appetite. Otherwise, Progussian wouldn't have cut through as he did.
That's an important point. He had and he was welcomed. He was welcomed. Wow, what a weekend.
That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We're going to be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's me, the president. Mom, this one's for you.
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