Kelly Osbourne

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Hi there.

How are you doing? I'm doing great. You're wearing a robe, people should know, over your normal clothes because you got a little cold in here and it's 88 degrees here. I got a little chilly.

So I'm a little worried about your iron count. Oh, but you know I run chilled. Yeah, but also you just ate your flies. Do you think maybe your iron's low?

Can we get an iron supplement? Sure. Okay, probably not the time or place. The intro.

It's ironic because I am chilly a lot, but I'm not chill. Right, well, right, right. Two drastically different categories. Very mixed, very mixed.

Yeah, if you put on a dating profile, very chill. They'll be confused. Kind of chill. Yeah, they're going to be confused when they meet me.

I guess you'd have to write. Very chilled. Yeah. Very currently chilled.

An old pal of mine, Kelly Osborne, is here today. I love Kelly. As you'll learn, we both got on TV roughly at the same time and we're around each other a bunch and it was a ton of fun. In the same place.

In the same place, in their home. Kelly Osborne, of course, is an English television personality, actor, singer, model, and fashion designer. It has a new podcast called The Kelly Osborne and Jeff Beecher Show. The weekly podcast and podcast will feature their dynamic and outrageous personalities and uncensored conversations with a diverse list of celebrity guests and famous friends.

They ran this crazy variety show for years and they regal us with it. And it sounds insane. It sounds really fun. Kind of Howard-esque with their like cast of crazies.

Yeah, cast of interesting creative geniuses. Yeah. Please enjoy Kelly Osborne. We are supported by Airbnb.

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He's no chance for it. He's no chance for it. He's no chance for it. He's no chance for it.

So we haven't been doing them in person for over a year. Am I the first one back? Second. Second.

Oh, still in the running. Still in the top three. It's so much more fun. Isn't it weird all the weird things that we get to do again that suddenly feel like you're doing it for the first time?

Oh yeah. All over again and you're like, this is amazing. I'm never going to take anything for granted again. Yeah.

And the next thing you know, you find yourself a Californian complaining about the weather. Oh my God. It's so bad. I can't believe how long it took me to get here and I don't even live like three miles away.

Yes, I know. I was like, I'm 15 minutes because I was still in my COVID bubble of how long it takes to get anywhere. And I was like, and I'll still get there on time. Because that's one of my isms is time.

You're good or bad at being on time? Okay. I do not like being late. It is extremely triggering for me in a way that can spiral my entire world into like a tornado.

And before I know it, I have a sweaty top lip and I'm crying. And I'm like, my day is ruined. Because you're late or someone else is late? Because I'm late.

But if someone else is late, to me, that shows me that you don't respect my time. I have the exact same thing. We've had a lot of discussions. You don't respect my time.

If it's somebody that's late once because they're stuck in traffic or the kid was sick, but they have a legitimate reason, I will always be like, okay, that's fine. Like no big deal. But if it's somebody in my life that I work with or that is a friend of mine that is consecutively late every single time I see them, that means you just don't respect my time. Or you're doing something wrong, minimal.

You're not planning enough. You're not saying that meeting me at this time is as important as whatever else you have. Over and over and over and over again. And me and my dad are the same that way.

And it's because my mom is late to everything. Everything. Oh, wow. There's so much here.

Because Monica and I had a big powwow about me being late about nine months Oh, I'm sorry. I'm totally into that. Is that a Native American word then? Yes, it's a meeting of powwow.

A meeting. Everyone circles around and shares ideas. I don't understand why it's disrespectful. I don't know that I agree with you can't say anything outside of your culture.

If it's wrong, I'll give you a perfect example of why you need to educate yourself in all of this. I was at dinner recently and we were talking about how you've got to be so careful or you're going to get blacklisted. And half of the table turned around to me and went, oh my God, you cannot say that. That comes from slavery.

And I literally just was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I had no idea. I will never say it again. Cut to a friend of mine at the table said, fuck no, I am not taking that.

That is not where that comes from. He got on his phone and he did the research. It goes back to like 17th century British history to do with people who were outcasts in society had nothing to do with racism. And like, we really went at the table, we turned it into a debate and it just was to show you can't just take what other people say.

You have to educate yourself. This happened on this show three weeks ago. We had an episode where I said master bedroom several times and then people wrote in the comments, you can't say master, that's about slavery. I looked it up.

The term master bedroom was invented in 1926 by Sears to put in the Sears catalog. A hundred years after slavery. Well, not a hundred, but at that point, 70 years after slavery. It has nothing to do with slavery.

Master bedroom. And it makes everyone look silly. A lot of the people who are doing it and saying these things, I have to be honest with you, are white people. Of course.

This isn't coming from the black community. This is coming from white guilt. I totally agree. And it's this whole thing where like, I went through that whole thing where I was like, oh, shite.

Like, I'm embarrassed to be me because of everything that I didn't know. And I'm so ignorant to all of it. And like, this year's been a great deprogramming and a great education for a lot of people. A lot of people who didn't know what was going on.

Yes, I was completely out to lunch. I've been racist innumerable times and not even realized that now I'm learning about it. I didn't even know what it meant to be. I didn't understand all of that.

And like, I keep saying this to people like, you're crazy. I'm like, no, this is the best part of history. We're alive at a time when, yes, it's fucking uncomfortable, but change is happening. And it's great change.

And accountability is finally happening. At first, I was like, yes, it's justice, but it's not. Because it'll be justice when everything is fair. Now it's just about holding people accountable so justice can happen.

I'm so with it. But I don't think at any point you are obligated to throw away logic, throw away reason, like to say that master bedroom is racist when it's just simply not the case. Well, then you go back to this. Is the word master in itself triggering to a community?

So that's the word that they don't like. I think it's also weird because it's so old-fashioned in England. The master bedroom, the lord and lady reside. So I come at it from a completely different mindset of it where, like in England where it's like classist, where it's like, I don't want to be part of that past-through-through world.

That's not for me. Yes, yes, yes. Same. So when that all happened, I'm like, everyone's saying what master is.

We're going to strike that from the language. On a car, what operates your brake system is the master cylinder. Like, it has all these applications. The word master.

It does. And so is to hear that a part on your car is called a master cylinder going to be triggering. Again, if I read from a black person, I would be way more receptive. But the seven people who wrote comments were white people.

Oh my god, and then I read this article about how we're not allowed to say woke anymore. Okay. Yeah. Wait, can you tell me what the rationale was?

I think, I could be really wrong about this, but I think that it was in Forbes. Okay. Which is really odd to me. Well, they're the vanguard of progressiveness.

Right. I don't know if it's them trying to act like they're being a part of this journey for once or if it's real or what, but. Or are they being antagonistic? Right.

No, I didn't read antagonistic. Interesting. Yeah. Because it was almost like that people are weaponizing the word woke.

Yes, of course. And it's losing its meaning. But I think that people are weaponizing the word racist and it's losing its meaning because when you call everyone racist, how do you know who the fuck is racist? Yeah, we need a few more words.

Yeah. We interviewed a Latino guest who was saying, there's a big difference between racism in your mind versus racism in your heart. Racism in your mind is like, you grew up in this culture, you don't really know to be questioning what an advantage you have. That's a mental thing.

Now, in your heart, if you fucking hate Latinos, that's a big issue you're not going to overcome. You know what I'm saying? No. So I think it would be a value to make some distinction between those two things because I think there can be grace and forgiveness in the mental version and not in the heart version.

If you feel superior to people, I don't mind that you get canceled. Yeah, no. It's so scary right now, but I'm enjoying the fear of it. I'm enjoying making mistakes over the past few years because I've learned so much from it.

But that's such a good attitude that a lot of people are not taking on. And I think that's where we get into a thing like, sure, it's okay to say some people are racist in their mind because of the society they live in, but then they have to make changes. They can't just say, well, it's just what I did forever. Yeah.

I mean, I have done some really awful things in my life, but the thing that I got the most shit for was being fat. Meaning? Meaning like drugs, like terrible behavior, drunken disorderly. You know what I'm saying?

Like all of that, which to me is like far worse than being fat. It's just the way that the world sees things is so strange. But I want to be really clear. So you got shit for using the word fat or people were attacking for being, you're saying fat.

So attack for being fat, but not attack for being an addict. Yeah. I got more work than what fucked up I was. Right.

Yeah. That's so interesting. Okay. So let's start at our beginning.

I would like to. No, go ahead. Go ahead. So I want to say you're like a year and a half ahead of me, but we both got famous on MTV roughly at the same time, which was really, really fun.

It really was. And MTV back then was the most fun place you could work on TV. There was no other network like it. There was no one doing what they were doing.

Everything was a party. Everything was a fucking party. It was the easiest place for me to be an addict, to be a pervert, to be. It was just a real wonderful.

You could do whatever. Like me and Jack talk about this all the time. Like if we were that age now, I would be in jail for sure. Yeah.

Because I could be like making real big examples. Like you look at all these young like kid rappers now and I'm like, shh, pussies. You know what I mean? Like I'm a girl and I was doing worse shit than you.

Yeah. Well, so this was all happening at the same time and your brother's open about being sober, right? Yeah, he is now. Right, right, right.

And I would have had almost 17 right now. So he was like, yeah, you're ahead of me, but I had a few attempts. So I knew him and I used to go to meetings at your house. I remember.

And then I fell in love with both your mother and you in that process. And I want to know what your memory of this is. I would come over for a meeting and I would flirt with you and your mother just shamelessly for about a half hour. No, he wouldn't.

And he would be like, you're gonna marry me when you grow up. And I would say, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. And I'd be like, fuck off that.

But your mom wanted it. My mom totally wanted it. Yeah, Jaren definitely wanted us to get married. She's like, he's so lovely.

And I'm like, leave me alone, mom. I was like, so awkward and like so fucked up on drugs. So that's what's fun to learn about you today. Because I walked into that scenario knowing obviously your dad had a problem.

And then learning Jack too was an addict and I was an addict. But I was like, oh, it escaped her. Like she's not in this mix. No, it did not escape me.

It was just that. You were better at hiding it? So much better at hiding it. Yeah.

Until I got to this point where I was like nodding out. Those are hard to hide. No, you can't hide out the nod. My mom was like, what the shit is going on?

And wild too, right? Because you would imagine if any person on planet Earth would have the best body senses about people being fucked up to be your mom. You imagine you couldn't possibly get one by your mom. Basically, long story short, you have to remember, I was like, mom, look what Jack's doing, look what Jack's doing, look what Jack's doing.

Because Jack got way worse than I was quicker. Yeah. But I didn't know that in the long run, I'd end up being the bigger problem. But back then I was like, look what he's doing, mom.

Yeah. So Jack got sent off to rehab and he did amazing. But then at that time, my mom had cancer. My dad had that bike accident.

And there was so much going on with the reality show and everything that like what I was doing, no one was looking at. Yeah. Well, this would be a fun exercise. So my memory of that thing where I would flirt with you in front of your mother.

I'm afraid to ask how old were you. She was 20, I was 27. Okay. Yeah.

Was I 20? I thought I was 19. No. It was at the end of that show.

Yeah, I was 19. No, no, but this is 2004. You were born in 84. 84?

Yeah, I was 20. I was 20. And I was 27. Yeah.

That's normal. Also, I didn't touch her or grab her. No, nothing like that. It was really sweet.

But look, I'm open to the notion that I too was delusional. Like, I thought that was really fun and I thought it was fun for you. And every time I would see you on a red carpet or something, I would find you and say my future wife. Yeah, and it was like this running joke that we had for a really long time.

And you seemed to enjoy it. Yeah. No, no, it always made me giggle. It always did.

I was never like, ooh, they're creepy Dax. The one thing about Dax is there's like not one creepy thing about you from what I've seen. Okay, good, good, good. But this could have been a moment, like a learning moment.

I could find out that I was like, I was one of those guys. No, you weren't. Okay, good, good. If I were in your shoes, I might be like, I don't understand what's happening.

Like, do you like me? Oh, I totally did. I thought Kelly was the cutest, most punk rock, fuck you attitude. Yeah.

This is exactly who I would try to date in high school. Right. So then I guess I'd be like, well, then why? No, I thought he was just joking.

Right. No, I thought you were so adorable. Yeah. This is what I'm saying.

That's so funny. All those days I was like, oh, she's been nice to me because I was like so insecure and like a former fat person like stealing my awkward body like. No, I thought you were a unicorn. Well, you he's making these jokes and like, okay, so I guess I'm not good enough for him to actually ask out because he's just making these jokes.

This is my shoes and I'm projecting onto you. But that's what I would feel. Like this person coming around, they were joking. Because we have this friend, mind you, he's married, but he's in love with Monica.

And he sends me really funny texts all the time. Like, hey, dude, sorry, you got surgery. How's Monica doing? They're really good.

But he sincerely is in love with Monica, but Monica really thinks it's just a bit or some percentage of it. It is a bit. But Kelly, it's not a bit. He's obsessed with her.

He screenshots her Instagram messages, sends them to me. As part of a very good running bit. No, no, no, no, no, no. The most committed bit of all time.

The commitment bit. It's so good. But did you have a hard time recognizing when guys liked you? I was so worried about getting my heart broken after I got my heart broken the first time that I turned into a ruthless bitch with men.

I did not care if they liked me. I did not really like them. They served a purpose. Sometimes.

And then others not. And it's something that I do feel really bad about now being in a relationship, which is the complete flip side, where I actually care how what I do affects them. And that's what brought me back after my relapse. Okay, so really quick.

Well, before we leave this bubble that we were in, you were 17 when the show started? Or 16? Were you in a capsule or you couldn't have been? Well, the weirdest part was is that you have to remember no one had ever done what we had done.

I know. You guys invented a genre. So as we were doing it, we didn't know either. And we didn't know what they were going to use and what they were going to use.

Because they filmed everything. Yeah, everything. I had a camera in my bedroom, but not in my bathroom. The bathroom's the only place they saw when I was up and stuff.

Yeah, but you gotta remember not to like get changed in your room. Like I gotta get changed in my bathroom. I just threw something over it every time. Oh, okay.

You could cover it. Yeah. And now I'm so weeded out by cameras. I notice them in places where people never see them as a result of this.

I bet. It's so strange. So the first season we filmed, I remember the night before it aired, my mom took us to Ben's speech, went to the drum circle, and we were like, did we just make a biggest mistake we've ever made in our lives? And then the next day, everything changed.

It was enormous. It was like Beatlemania, except for the Osborne. Like we had people outside of our house. I've never seen cars parked on the street outside of our house before.

Like it just wasn like that. Yeah. I woke up and I looked out the window and it was just cars everywhere. I was like, what is all this?

So then I got like ready, like not thinking like, because I didn't think anyone would ever care about me. It was about my dad. Yeah, of course. And thus far, when you're traveling through the world for those first 16 years, people see your dad.

You're probably invisible. Yeah, mostly. Mostly invisible, unless it's a rock band who knows my dad's stuff and then they know me. Right, right.

But I've done a few bits on TV from like 12, but not anything substantial, if you know what I'm saying, other than when we started doing all this stuff on MTV. And I remember my first thing I did with them was spring break. It was like the craziest thing that we had ever. I had so much fun.

You did. Where was it? Cancun. Oh, baby.

Remember the name? It was like crazy. Yeah. At that time, were you able to like party while you were in?

Okay. So we had security guard with us that my mom sent out, who's also on Manny. Okay. You're legally allowed to drink there at that age.

Are you? I went to Cancun on spring break when I was in 11th grade and I just drank at every bar. I was 16, but no one stopped me. Yeah, I think it is 16.

I think it is 16 in Mexico. So anyway, like we went to this one place and I remember it was like Busta Rhymes' crew and I can't remember who else's crew were there. I think it might have been DMX. Oh, wow.

RIP. RIP. And all of a sudden it was like the passing of the Red Sea and then it was like a huge fight broke out. A rumble.

And all I remember is getting flipped over someone's shoulder and dragged out of the club and then they're like, next club. And we went to the next place. And it was like Paris was having a party with Nikki at it and we were just babies. Wow.

Yeah. And it was when like people still listen to rock music and it was like nuts. By the way, have you watched the Paris Hilton documentary? I have not yet.

I just watched it two nights ago and it's incredible. Okay. My favorite part that I've heard about it is that you finally get to see the Paris I know, if you know what I mean? Yeah.

She's so smart. Right, right, right. And so funny. But the persona of hate gorge, that's her blanket.

You know what I'm saying? That's what she had to build to protect herself and now you get that insight and you get to understand the person behind the voice. Well, it's really telling us they have all this footage from when she was a child. The whole family was obsessed with how pretty she was and they talked about her all the time.

Her nickname was Star and her family. And it's like, oh, you very much see that she's being told her value is that she's beautiful. The grandma wants her to be Marilyn Monroe. Like, it's all happening, but no one's recognizing it's happening.

And then what at first you learn about this trauma she had, like in high school. And initially I was kind of like, is this inflated trauma, like for the sake of this documentary? But then there's a huge support group of survivors from these schools where they come kidnap you in the middle of the night. It's like an aggressive, outward bound type of thing to reform children.

Oh, wow. I have a lot of friends that went to that school. Really? I do.

Yeah, so she's just 16 or 17 sleeping in her home and two men she doesn't know come into her room and pick her up and drag her out of the house. And then she's screaming for her parents, screaming for her parents. And then she crosses, she sees her parents, they see and they're crying, but they've orchestrated. No talking, take her to this place.

She tries to run away. She ends up being there for a year, often in confinement, solitary. Wait, wait, wait, wait. She had been going out and getting in trouble.

Like, away with kids. But really what it is, is for rich parents who don't know how to be parents or have tried everything through therapy and don't get it. To be empathetic to them, scared parents who don't know what the fuck to do. Yeah, scared parents.

It's not always rich because I do know Kathy and Kathy Hilton is like one of my favorite moms of my friends. She's like incredible. I love her. And I'm not speaking about Paris.

Generally speaking, the friends of mine who are not parents that went to this place, their parents were just so wealthy and the socialites that kids were brought up by the nannies and they thought that what they were doing for their kid was sending them away and paying for someone else to make them right. Yeah, throwing money at the problem. And not actually realizing that part of the problem is that they're not connecting with their own kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So there's a whole survivor community of kids who've gone to these schools and they got physically abused, they got sexually abused. It's crazy. A lot of these schools are in Utah. Yes, yeah.

And, okay, so I had my own interactions with her a couple of times. I found her to be nice and everything. But as you learn about somebody, this is what Monica always says, it's like the details of people make them. What you're saying, you always say?

The more specific you get, actually, the more universal it is. Right. The more specific you get, weirdly, the more universal the story is. Yeah, so I'm watching this and I'm like, my God, man, this girl, what an experience, what a ride she's been on.

What a real human being this is. Did they show any of the TMZ footage of what you should be like when her and I would walk into clubs and the things that they would say to us? Yes, yes, yes. Oh, did you watch the Britney one?

I can't watch it. I can't watch it. It's so upsetting to me. The whole thing to do with Britney is upsetting.

I can't be one of those people that makes fun of her videos. This is somebody who is just trying to find a piece of happiness in a world of fucking hell that she's living in. And that she has no control over. And it wasn't that long ago that I had dinner with her and she is such a sweet girl.

She seems it. It's so sad. And she was so upset because my dog tried to fight her. Oh.

You're like, no, Polly. You sit there and you look at somebody and they're just trying to be themselves. Then that, Doc, the thing I would point out, aside from the paparazzi, which is literally when you watch it with today's eyes, you're like, well, it's assault. I mean, it's literally assault and it's repeated.

But even more, I don't know, subversive is her having to go on these interviews at like 19 years old. And then some 50-year-old guy going, well, you know, I've got to ask, are your breasts real? Are you a virgin? Are you a virgin?

All of that stuff was said to me. Yes. I would have these men when I was like 16 years old in these magazines pick apart my body and tell me what I should change so that I could become attractive. And or pick apart my body and say that I've had a boob job or I've had a nose job.

And I've always been like, I'm the most honest bitch I know in this celebrity world in that sense. Like, if I've done it, I'm going to fucking tell you I did it. The more skeletons you have in your closet, the deeper everyone's going to dig to get to them. So it's just like, who cares?

No one's perfect. Just say it. I completely agree. I remember, again, around the same time frame, Colin Farrell.

I read an interview with him in Playboy. They said, you do drugs. And he said, well, yeah, this weekend I did probably an eight ball of Coke and six sets of ecstasy and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, okay, well, there'll never be a big story about him now.

He just completely nullified any people. He's like, yeah, I do fucking love drugs. And I do a lot of them on the weekend. Yes, it's people that are like hiding shit that like people get on the scent and they want to get the truth.

And that's the whole thing with me. And that's why this time around, I didn't go down that road. Okay, so you put together a big uninterrupted stretch of sobriety, right? A few years?

Yes, almost four years. Almost four years. Okay, and things were going good. Did you go to meetings?

Oh my God, like everything. I'm secretary. Oh, wow. All of it.

Like I was misprogrammed. And did it have the profound effect on you that it had on me? Yes. I love it.

It was everything to me. It helped me grow up. It helped me figure out who I am. And for me, I got more of the fellowshipping and being a part of it than I did the steps.

Yes, same, same. Someone sent a meeting last week. Look, if it were just the book or just the fellowship, I don't think the book would have kept me sober the last 30 years. It's the fellowship.

And I totally agree. So when quarantine happened and the world changed, I started to change too. And I started to do the online meetings. I didn't like them.

I'll be really straightforward in the sense like I do not want to watch you fucking lift weight and sexy face pout into a goddamn Zoom camera. We're addicts. We have the biggest fucking like self-doubt slash egos out of anyone. The combination of the two and the juxtaposition is insane.

That's why we're insane. Yes, yes. The best part about going to any meeting is that you don't have to look at your fucking self. When you're looking at yourself, so you just see a bunch of egomaniacs pulling sexy face and it's just like, oh my God, I fucking hate this.

So for a while, I started to get up at five in the morning and do this one in England because like that wouldn't go down. That's not how they do it. No, it would not go down. You'd be literally banned from the meeting.

I got nothing out of it. They made me angry and resentful. Slowly, but surely I stopped calling my sponsor. Slowly, but surely I stopped connecting with my goals.

Slowly, but surely one goal relapsed, another goal relapsed, and then all my friends relapsed. And then I'm just sat here and I made it all the way through. Like the worst part of the lockdown, I'm still like, I'm so great, I'm great. Don't know what happened.

Everything started to go fucking amazing. I'm the girl, but when things go incredible and everything is the way you think it should be, and you suddenly find yourself in what you think happiness is, I went, oh, I'm normal now. I'm happy. I don't need any of this fucking shit anymore.

I lasted this whole pandemic without anything. Yeah. And then I was just sat by a pool by myself. I saw this girl drink your coffee champagne and I was like, I have one of them.

Sure. And I just had one and it was fine. And I had a great time and I didn't think anything of it. And then a couple of weeks went by and I thought, I did it then.

I could do it again. Yeah. Two weeks later, done. Like fucking done.

Wow. Did not last long. Like the embarrassing shit. Blacked out.

I can't drink the same that I used to. It wasn't fun. Any pills? No, I didn't go down that road.

Wow. Even while drunk. Because when you're drunk, the game plan goes right out the window. Well, I'm scared because I'm on antidepressants.

And I have been told that if you drink on antidepressants and take anything else, you can die. Okay, good. So I was like, good to remember that. So I was like, not going to do that.

I don't want to die. It's not a little bit of fun. Yeah. So I didn't mess around too far because in my mind I was feeling control.

Yes. It wasn't until I found myself last weekend covered in runs dressing by my friend's pool sunburn, looking like a piece of shit. And I was like, maybe I don't have this under control. And then I went back to, it's weird.

Like we're in that new stage for five months. I guess we're boyfriend and girlfriend we are. Yeah. But like whenever we're out and someone is like, is this, I'm like, I never know how to explain it because it's like, I'm still that like girl that I'm waiting for him to say.

He's probably incredibly proud to be called your boyfriend. Of course. He's really awesome. He's a cinematographer?

Yeah. Okay. He's really, really awesome. And he works?

Yeah. Okay. You never know when someone famous has a partner and they have a title and you wonder, are they a real cinematographer or are they introduce themselves as a cinematographer? So he's really talented and he's one of those guys that can do anything in the sense that he can rebuild a car, he can build a website, he can edit and film and light and do this now, he can do it all.

You know, my number one thing I'm attracted to is competence. He's very competent. Very competent. He's so attractive.

And what's even more attractive is that when I'm out of line or like not doing something, he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, thank you. Thank you for recognizing that. And even though I already had and didn't want to face it, he sees you.

Yeah. He sees me. And like, it's great. And it's the healthiest relationship I've ever been in.

Oh, that's wonderful. So he met you obviously sober. Yes. And then you went off the rails a little bit.

Yes. And what was his, what did he? He didn't say anything. He just gave me a look.

Uh-huh. And it was while he was working out and I was just sat on the couch watching him work out, drunk. And he was doing a burpee and he turned his head to the side and just looked at me and I was like, oh, he thinks I'm a piece of shit. I go, I go, okay, I'm done.

The next day I was like, done. I called off my sponsor. Everyone made the video, posted it, signed myself up for a month of therapy just to put myself back on track again. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

I still relate to, I'm the most vulnerable and things are great. That's the worst part about me. I really relate, like, I expect to be miserable, I expect to be uncomfortable. Exactly, I don't expect to be happy, I don't know how to handle it.

And I don't, there's a combination of I don't deserve it, one. And then two, I always want more. So shit feels good and things are good and now I need to take it to 11. Whereas if I'm a five, I'm not thinking like, fuck it, let's ramp this five up to a six.

I'm just not in that attitude zone of like, I want more, more, more, things are great, this feels good, I want to feel fucking elation, you know. So I wanted to feel the elation by adding some alcohol to it and ruining my life. And that's the lie, right? That's the thing that's so hard to digest.

I had had 16 years when I went out this year. I figured out what it is. So that's why I was like, okay, I'm signing myself up for more therapy and like, I'm going to figure this out. So I'm trying new forms of therapy I haven't done before, like EMDR and somatic therapy and...

What's EMDR? I don't know. I'm getting my first one tomorrow. Is that like the sound?

Is there like sound? I got something to do with sound and like, it's to do with trauma. And then I am doing this cognitive brain therapy that teaches you how to retrain your thoughts. Yes, we've had a couple people on experts that have spoken of that and we're both, like, brainless, because Monica and I are both...

Do you have OCD too? We both have really, really obsessive thoughts. What was it? Someone referred to it as...

Chatter? Chatter, but... See, I'm on a loop. Only my closest friends know this about me.

I'm going to say this because what else have I got to hide? Aren't Jerry's a very close friend? So basically, when something's in my head, like, let's say someone's pissed me off, I will walk around my apartment going, I'm never going to speak to him again, I'm never going to speak to him again, I'm never speaking to him again, until I'm like, whoa, what are you doing? And then have to be like, okay, you've just caught yourself and I'm like, oh shit, my OCD's really kicking off again.

So then I have to go back into the practices for that, which is more meditation and more mindfulness and more like being aware of what's going on and trying to figure out what these stresses are. And some days I'm up for the challenge and it's fun because it's like a game and you're learning more about yourself. But like, last week, there was a day I was like, I am not fucking up for this and I'm not getting out of bed and I'm going to sit in bed watching Disney movies all day because I don't want to do anything. Yeah.

That's exhausting. Yeah. I'll be in a rift with somebody and then I will obsessively plead my case and I'll anticipate everything they're going to say. And you're mad at them and you put words in their mouth that they didn't say.

A hundred percent. And I'll do it for hours with some awareness as well, where I go to myself, I say in my head, you've covered everything. Stop it. You're not going to discover, right?

Like I'm using like three pieces of data that happened. Someone was late and then they said this and then they left. There's three things. And I'm taking those three things and reconfiguring them for hours and hours to make it the worst possible assault against me.

See, I had a thing like that yesterday. Again, I think he's getting mad at me if I keep talking about him. But when we had a miscommunication about something, I said to him, it would mean a lot to me if you did this blah, blah, blah, blah. Let me do this one favor.

It came around to do the favor. He asked if you didn't have to do it. And I said, I've never asked you for anything. And it was the one thing that I asked you for.

But my natural instinct was to be like, don't fucking talk to me and hang up. He wouldn't let me do that. And we talked about it. And I realized that I just turned something that was just a slight miscommunication on my part because I didn't really.

State your needs, I bet. It didn't say my needs. I just said it means the world to me thinking that he would get that. That meant that it was important to me.

But that's not how guys think. It wasn't how anyone thinks. No. So I was just like, fuck.

I was ready to be like mad all day. And he's like, no, no. We're going to pivot. Yeah.

And also probably subconscious for you, it is a little bit of a test. Like I don't deserve love. I'm going to casually mention this thing. And if he loves me the way I hope he does, he'll pick up on it and do that thing I want.

No, that's it. No. Because I'll do that. I want like, oh, cool.

I've been out of town for four days. I come home and you're not home. I make that a thing. Instead of having said, hey, I'm coming home in four days.

I'd love to see you. I miss you. Could you be home? That would be a responsible, vulnerable thing to do.

Instead, I assume you'll be there and be excited to see and greet me with a great fanfare. And then when you don't, I've concluded you don't love me. But I never asked the person to do the thing. That's something I definitely am working on.

Yeah. It's hard. It's hard. Breaking that cycle and breaking those habits and realizing that that's not you.

I also wonder if we share this. I chose punk rock as an aesthetic and a lifestyle for a very specific reason, which is I felt like I wasn't going to succeed with the rules that had been established. I wasn't a jock. I wasn't this.

I wasn't that. All from my perception. So I was going to outwardly reject. Like, I don't fucking care about your game.