Kevin Costner

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman. Good morning.

Good morning. You have copped to this once or twice. I feel like this one caught me off guard. I got a little starstruck.

Yes. Could you feel it? I could. You could.

Yeah. I thought it was nice. Yeah, I really was. I was a bit starstruck.

Yeah. Kevin Costner delivers. Well, first of all, let's just say. My goodness.

Fuck. I mean, the pictures will be up. You could go look. But I don't even know.

It couldn't possibly do it justice. He looks so fucking good. Yeah. He looks so, so good.

Oh, my God. He was so stylish. Yes. And so tan.

Yes. Very suave. Oh, yeah. Nice tan.

I kind of just was like charmed right out of the gate. And he had a real rastly smile every now and then he'd let rip. He did. He was fun.

He had a great energy. I do feel like I get why you were a bit off kilter because because he's old school. He's like an old movie star. He is.

Like, I mean, he's like a legend. Yes. He's a legend. And I think I was like I was reminded of that when I researched him before I got here.

I just I kept looking at credit. Oh, my God. Of course. It's like when you're looking at Spielberg's and you're like, oh, right.

And you did that. Right. So, yeah. Costner, I was just like, oh, God, the bodyguard.

Yeah. Well, we get into that. It's so good. Yeah.

Dances with Wolves, The Untouchables, Waterworld, Yellowstone. And he has a new film. We have two new films that are coming out called Horizon and American Saga. And it's broken into two.

The first one comes out on June 28th and part two comes out on August 16th in the movie theater. It's so huge and grand in scope. It's a Western. And this is going to be four parts.

Yes. This might be the most ambitious movie project I've ever heard about. Really, really cool. Everybody turn the slacks off of us.

Please enjoy Kevin Costner. He's an alternative. He's an alternative. He's an alternative.

Is that true too big for you, Monica? No, it's perfect. You should see me in this one. I feel like you're having a time out.

Who's this? Hi. Hi. Okay, great.

Come have a seat. We're just talking tour buses. Oh, no, you're right there, Bob. Yeah, you're fine.

Are you the cleaner? When he kills us, are you going to... Yeah, there we go. What's your name?

Arnold? Arnold. We've been together a long time. I've got a nice of two.

23 years. Wow. 23 years. That's pretty nice.

Have you ever done a podcast? I did one this morning. You did. Who did you do?

IndieWire. And I've done Adam about five years ago. Corolla? Corolla, yeah.

Okay. We're pals. He's just a funny guy. Stern?

Yeah, have you done Stern? Yeah, is that a podcast? It's not, but it's long form. I've never done Howard.

Oh, you have? I don't think I have. Next. You can do an hour.

Is it next? She's just... That's all. Stop.

They've got you booked until midnight. I'm going to work today. I just got back from France, and I'm going to do this, and I've got to do something for Memorial Day Parade. I'm not really sure what that's about.

Then I'm going to see Jimmy Kimmel. Yeah. Then I'm flying back to Utah to direct three. You star next week?

No, I shot three days, stopped everything, went to France, screened the movie, because it was important for us. It's kind of essentially an independent movie to throw as much light as I could on what we've been doing, because people have been wondering about it. So it was out there for the film festival. It was something I had imagined a couple of years ago earlier that I was going to need to do that, and thank God they took the movie and gave us a really nice placement on the weekend, and I was able to bring out seven of my actresses.

The movie's very heavy on women, and wow, talk about girls who know how to walk the red carpet. Jesus, when they had their moment, they really had to walk, snap their hair back, and one leg goes out. Well, when I walk the carpet with my wife, she's got about seven different poses, and I stand there with the same confused look on my face, and I'm like, am I supposed to adjust with her? How's your hair going right?

Yeah, well, I can't even look over my shoulder, would you? You can really hit yourself. This was a can? This was a can.

Walking out. You got a seven-minute standing ovation, and you got, rightly so, emotional? I did. It was about 11 minutes, actually, because the first four, they were clapping when it was dark, and finally, I thought, you should maybe turn the lights on and find out what's happened.

They rested somewhere. Somebody fell, they got up, and they kept clapping, and what happened when the lights came up, they kept going. I did get emotional, actually. My eyes filled.

There's 2,500 people there in that theater, and Bertolucci said so accurately. It's like the last place where 2,500 people can sit in the dark and dream the same dream. I don't know exactly what's happening, and I can feel the balcony, and all of a sudden, I went back in time. They kept clapping, but suddenly, the sound went away from me, and I went back to, it started in 1988 for me, and couldn't make it in 2003, and decided that in 2003, since nobody liked it, I'd make four more.

It's like, from a therapy point of view, Kevin, did you hear they didn't like the first one? You heard that, though, right? And you did what? You wrote four more.

You know that big question. Why? We hope I covered that today. Right, and so what happened was, I started going backwards, and I got emotional, and my children were there.

I had five of my children. Two of my boys were in Texas, and my three little girls were all dressed up, and they were watching, too, and they got a little startled by it. My son had not ever seen me be that emotional. You know what's ironic, right, is you and I would pray that when that camera's on us in the scene, that we could get to that spot, but then there it happens in real life, and there's this hesitation, right?

There was a hesitation. I was holding back, because here's the camera, but I could see this 100-foot screen behind him, and that's me, and I looked, and I could see my eyes were full, and I thought, good fuck, but I walked backwards, and finally, I thought I should bring this to a stop, so I didn't know there was going to be remarks. I didn't know that that was expected, and so I was a little bit caught there, too. I guess the screen behind you is the big part.

That's basically like doing your scene in front of Video Village, like watching yourself. Right. Yeah, did you walk back in time, not just from the story of the movie that then came to fruition so many years later, but did you have that kind of awareness of, like, wow, this has been a pretty long walk I've taken, and to land here, minimally, you've got to recognize, well, this is a unique experience. Not a lot of people get to have this moment.

Yeah, that's a whole town focused on film, and at that moment, it was focused on us. It was lots of ups and downs, and just trying to stay true to it, trying to not let it be manipulated, and wondering why I'm such a knothead, but there it is. There's no apologies for it. I don't know if you've gotten to see the movie.

I watched it two nights ago. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's also an interesting time in history, and we'll get into that, where we have a lot more layers of accepted behavior. These people are out in the middle of fucking nowhere, having not gone to school, having not lived anywhere where they would have observed elders passing anything.

These are like renegade, lone wolf, crazy people in search of something. The thing I was trying to do with this movie is that, historically, movies, the towns are already there. It's like, what, where they pop up after rain and the mushrooms? Yeah, you're right.

They're building, like, one church, generally, when we arrive. These towns were built and burnt down. It's a 200-year experiment. I think we're getting a little deep into it.

Monica, maybe? You didn't see the voice of the audience at all times. I actively don't watch the movies so that I know when we're getting too esoteric or not, and I am a bit confused. So, in general, this is a really, really expansive story, and it's following three or four different sets of people in three or four different areas of the West during the four-year span of the Civil War.

Actually, what happens is it's before the Louisville. It's a 10-year thing, and we start a couple years before the Civil War starts. We don't really deal with the Civil War, but what we're saying is when you historically know the West, you realize that when the Civil War was actually going on, the people that were coming West were way more exposed. Why?

Because there was no army. The army was busy fighting the Civil War. Yes, the military had a presence out there. They were actually scared, too.

This one guy says, look, you can count the indigenous, you count us, you don't have to wonder at the logic. Yeah, we'll be killed in a second if they decide. That's right, that line in there. They could rid us in one day's work.

15,000 Apache-ers, 100 and whatever. So it's a saga, and then it passes that time, and of course, in about the next 20 years, the West shut down after the Civil War. So it's a migration West of people who don't know each other all headed to a spot that looks like maybe they can have a life, because a salesman put pretty pictures on it, said they can catch trout, and none of those things, of course, are there. But if you watch television now on 800 channel, people are selling shit all the time.

Well, think about you in California and its history. We were sending huge trainloads of oranges east to go, like, look what we have in the middle of winter, begging people to come out here. Now we're like, please stay away. Yeah, I actually didn't know that, but that makes a lot of...

We're showing off. All these people in where I'm from Detroit are in the middle of winter. They haven't had a fresh vegetable or fruit in three months, and this train car of fresh oranges arrives. Do you know Mike Binder?

Funny enough, I have him on my list to bring up. Yeah, Binder and I are friends, and it occurred to me during my research. You guys are buddies. Michigan is really big for him.

Yeah, I enjoyed watching you play a retired tiger in Upside. Mike was a brilliant screenplay. So you are going to have to get out of that big chair someday and go see the movie like a big one. Yes, of course I will.

I'm excited. One thing you'll notice right away, that in American West, women are dominant in my movie. I think you'd probably agree with that. Surprisingly so.

So there's a few different groups we're following, and of course, their stories are slowly being funneled into this place, Horizon. We have some things set in Montana, and then we have Mick Wilson driving a convoy or caravan through Kansas and that trail. And then we have where Horizon is, which I'm guessing is Utah. No, it's down in Arizona.

Arizona, okay. Off the San Pedro River. So it's the first hundred pages of a novel, if you will. You're setting your story, and you're setting these people.

And some people are getting there on purpose, and some will get there by coincidence. There's a bunch of things, I think, being explored, but it's really fascinating that the characters in this movie, the Civil War's not even happening for them. They are so far removed. It makes me think about our access to everything currently.

Like, you could be anywhere in the world, and you can be actively watching a couple different wars happening right now. But there was this ability to exist in whatever little pocket of reality you were in back then. You couldn't follow something. You might get a newspaper at some point, but it would be so old.

By the way, there was never a safe day for them. Every day was work. Every day was keeping your family fed, keeping them clean if you could. It was nothing but work.

Women for that 200, 300-year span were working themselves to death. I mean, one of the fascinating things I learned about the Old West, which is really telling how scarce everything was, is when they built structures, and then they moved on. They burnt down the houses to reclaim the nails. Nails were so rare that they had to burn down the houses to gather up the nails so they could build again.

No, it's true. I mean, a little girl passes a biscuit to the boy, and he takes it. He's going to put it in his back. She goes, no, my mom needs that cloth.

She'll know that it's gone. Nothing's disposable. That's why the sharing of food, probably nothing more important in life. If you want to have a bond with somebody, share food with them.

Yeah. Yes. And what they started to understand was maybe if they're going to exist on this land, maybe they need, with their technology, to leave a deer that they shot out to the indigenous and say, thank you, this is rent. A little act of good faith.

Right. And we were kind of willing to do that when our numbers were, you know, please don't hurt us. But the minute there's a tipping point, we just treated the indigenous like they're an inconvenience in their own country. Yes.

Okay, we're going to dive into the movie a bunch, but I do want to go back to Can in the moment there, because I am going to guess that through the course of this really illustrious and incredible career, it's fun to research someone like you, to be reminded. For me, American Flyers, that is a seminal movie for me that my brother and I watched over and over and over again on TV. It just played and played and played and played. I remember how much time I spent with that specific movie and then going through all of them.

So many incredible projects throughout that ride in the journey. I'm imagining you're human like all of us and you have different periods of feeling worthy of that and feeling perhaps imposter syndrome or not worthy. Before I proceed, those feelings, have you had those in the past? I have the feeling that I was never going to make it.

And then when you do, it's kind of like, well, this feels a little too good to be true. You're kind of waiting for them to knock at the door and go like, big mix up. So sorry. Once I got through the door, I kind of went pretty fast.

You sure did. It wasn't Tom sliding across the floor at 18. It was for me, 27, 28. And so I was a stage manager at Raleigh working for $3.25 and Richard Gere and Mel Gibson and Nicholas Cage and Timothy Hutton and Sean Penn.

At a certain moment, maybe I wasn't going to get a part. So far out of reach. So at one point, I even said, they can only do two movies a year. I need to see everything that somebody's turning down.

I drove my agent crazy. I want to know if they've walked past something great or they just can't get to it because they've committed to something down the line. I said, let's chase that idea. And my agent thought, what are you thinking about, buddy?

Actors all want to have agents, but you've got to realize that you get 90% of the money, maybe you're supposed to do 90% of the work. Yeah, true, true, true. I had an idea about myself. You know, when you do look at the breadcrumbs of your life, when you walk it back, you measure your life different, certainly, than anyone else does.

And so somebody who looks at the tips of these icebergs of whatever you want to say, when do you think it happened? I have a different view of when it happened for me. For me, when I got the big show, driving down the freeway, knowing I got the part, I knew my life had changed. Well, guess what?

I didn't even end up in the movie. But the point was, I knew, stop with the research. Unforgettable hand. If you don't have a real grasp of your career, then you're kind of wandering.

When I got that part, I knew I was with the right people. I was with the right director. I would absorb everything. Yes, I had a moment.

I was in the movie. But I realized that wasn't going to be my last movie in my own mind. You made an impact on Larry Kasdan, clearly. He made a big difference in my life, both watching him behave, watching the rehearsal process.

We made Silverado. It was a very flashy part. The part had a lot of genius. He was set up to win.

And so what you have to do is embrace it, walk right into it, which was a little hard for me because I was prepared to play the laconic Scott Glenn role, Peyton, who Kevin Klein played, because I knew this era. It was already my thing. And so I thought I knew how to do the minimalist. Here I got this guy that was raging and climbing like a monkey and picking fights.

And I thought I wasn't prepared to play him at first. Yeah, were you nervous? I was because I knew how to do this other thing. This guy was as big as the horizon.

So that's how I ended up trying to play him, which was play to the horizon. It's not like anybody else is in the room. Right, right, right. It's like you're not value for value on shit.

It's your world. Everyone else is passing through it. That's right. But that moment of the big chill, I wasn't wrong.

Silverado happened. But sometimes being on the yellow brick road is as much about getting where you're going. Listen, I can relate to that greatly, which is the biggest hurdle is being invited into the fucking room because you're on the outside of the room for so long that that moment where you go, oh, my God, I got a call time. I'm on my way to a movie set is very, very special.

You go, well, now I'm up to bat. I just had never been up to bat. And I know I can't hit if I don't get called up to bat. That's correct.

So I agree with you. It's really maybe the most profound. We're in a real spot as actors because even musicians can stand in the corner with a guitar and their case open. They can make a little dough.

They can play. As an actor, if you're fumbling your lines on some street corner, you're going to jail. They're moving your way. So the ability to practice your craft, granted, you have the theater, but you realize it's limited.

And so what you're talking about is, how am I going to step through that door? You need permission to do the thing you want to do. Yeah. Unlike writing, you can sit down.

They can't stop you. So when it did start to happen, when American Flyers turned into No Way Out, I found that movie. I had done Silverado. Orion thought it was a pretty catchy part.

Asked me to come in. Showed me all their movies. I said no. And that was a big word that has followed me.

And you had that from the beginning? I developed it where I thought, I need my career to be about something at some point. I just went like, you know what? I'm trying so hard.

I need to be able to look back. And so I did have that. So they had their movies. And I'm sure they all thought they were good.

I didn't see a fit from it. And they said the right question right after that. Well, is there anything you want to do? All this back work I had been doing about who's turning down what, what's going on, constantly reading on my own.

I found this movie called Finish with Engines. It's a naval term for shutting down a ship. You ever see those things on the Titanic? Oh, I had one third.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you look at it on the brass, you can look at it, I think, in sand pebbles. If you pull it all the way back, it says finished with engines. It's the shutting down.

Those are big ships. You've got to be really sure about shutting it down because you can't get it started right away. And I said, I read the script. I'd do this.

And it was at Warner Brothers. It was in turnaround. So they said, OK, we'll do that with you. And there was no way out.

They changed the title. Oh, wow. But I knew how it read. It matched up with the sensibility that I had.

So after that, then the Untouchables happened. After about five or six movies, then the field of dreams came in the boulder room. But then I wanted to direct. I knew where I was headed.

I knew what I wanted to do. And I was a terrible student. It was only when film really took hold of me that I invested and understood what it was like to be a good student. Because I saw good students in college.

I wasn't one. You went to UC Fullerton. What was your degree in? Marketing.

And you discover acting in college, right? In college last year. And so prior to the dream of doing that, did you have a fantasy of going into marketing? job and you raise a family they were dust bowl dust bowl people yes robin compton here yes oh wow for the first seven years and then moved to a little santa paula and then up between santa paula and ohio one street there's a two-room schoolhouse up to the sixth grader you're in with a lot of kids and i thought to myself it was a little harder in compton it's all right i can deal with a sixth grader come on but you moved a ton i moved a ton too yeah and i think it either makes you or breaks you because man reintroducing yourself constantly it almost broke me i found i lost confidence in 11th 12th i was also an undersized kid i'm looking at my boys right now one just turned 17 but he's 6 2 going on 6 3 and i was 5 2 my middle son is 15 he's 6 i didn't have that thing so when you took the moving you took being undersized you took girls wanting to look at your license and after the fourth one said 5 2 wow you're cute i thought i'm never showing that license to anybody and you suck at school yeah and i was not good i could play sports and that gave me one leg up at least you had a built-in set of friends a little bit and you're going from pretty radically different cultures compton to vasalia the last two years of high school is orange county i'm really proud of you for digging in honestly you're starting to say some things i forgot you're worthy of it well thank you and the first girl that kind of liked me that i dated i didn't have dates in high school i married her wow okay this may be too revealing but i'll go first so elementary school i love girls i'm loving girls from the day i'm born none of them like me i get to junior high my older brother gives me a really cool punk rock haircut i get a skateboard all of a sudden girls like me and there has never ever ever been a better drug than that for me well i think it does make the world go round i'm sorry i know it wasn't that i didn't like her it was just like if i walk across there after that she is gonna say no i wasn't a self-fulfilling prophecy it's just i wasn't going to be the guy kind of an ironic guess with the career you had and how big and handsome you turned out to be it wasn't gonna happen and i was lost i got this little hunting dog up in visalia and all i did was just got that dog i would go and not come home did you live in fantasy world a lot i daydreamed which was a little bit harder than my dad i was always a worker i worked since i was little but he confused my daydreaming with me not knowing how to work and i really knew how to work you know my dad finally came to me said your mom and i've been talking we're wondering did we help you in college i said no he said you paid for it i said i did i worked on commercial fishing boats i really like people but i wasn't afraid to go someplace myself well but can i say you had already experienced exclusion it was terrible and then you lived through it and i think that's over your gift you can stomach it you can go be odd man out for the rest of your life if you need to be you've done it i can exist where i'm at it's like the movies there's a pattern in my life i'm a bit of a plotter it took me a while in high school i didn't understand women i didn't understand our own industry it took me a while to get everything i have it comes late to me i am a late bloomer in all of it like your growth spurt yeah quite honestly even as i exist in industry today people under the illusion i can do whatever i want the truth is i do whatever i want but i can't do whatever i want in a sense that some of these movies they have not wanted to do have not been popular in their mind the dances of the field of dreams and the bull durham's were movies that just had to take them around push them up in some instances use your own money even horizon is this long journey no one was going to make this but i wanted to go fishing what's the harm in that who am i hurting i'm not ahab i know what obsession is obsession is willingness to take other people down to fulfill your dream but for me what i maybe sacrifice is the wealth that i built up i might lose it oh it doesn't scare you it never has wow i have a sense of responsibility because i have children there's a core that i'm not going to let go but this pile that has meant a lot to me i'm not going to let that inform my decisions well you're probably rightly going okay on the deathbed do i want to stare at the pile as i go or do i want to go oh yeah and i got that across the finish line even the idea of i got that across the finish line i realized at the end of the day we're still gonna have this big question what was our life about what's on my grave marker i hope it says and i made movies too so maybe that's the trick i mean we don't know what this is about we know that it has to do with love because that is a thing you can go to bed with and wake up with and i have the love of my children i have a love of a profession that i finally understand i don't have to be considered the number one person but i am in that room i decide what i'm going to do it just isn't easy and it doesn't unfold for me i have to go okay this is what it is nobody wants to go i'm going to go yeah when you get to at 32 when you have this crazy string the untouchables all these things and now you are officially a leading man you are going to make decisions you're driving the boat you know you're globally famous at that point is that an easy transition for you or is that hard did that take a minute that's an easy transition because i wasn't concerned with it just once i realized what it was just the same way i realized that when i was on the freeway with the big show i said this is happening for me this is fucking happening yeah here we go baby you're not in the movie you're not like john loves us talking about something like that pricey didn't happen for you i love this guy where is this guy oh i just saw him at the hollywood bully came out during billboard we need this guy but anyway it's not how i define things so when that happened i didn't have that moment with my head out doing cocaine on the hood of a car i was like down about what i i should have followed you around there's a lot of people that say i haven't lived my life i don't agree on the street you a ditch with me we can be on the rope your nose looks dry let's get something here's the thing i had that actually happen believe it or not when i was a stage manager raleigh it was called producer studio because of roof sleek only thing we got there were commercials and low budget movies that didn't have enough money and then didn't even pay the studio but it's like we were constantly changing eventually another group came in raleigh studios and they started to pour money back in the studio but we were still just doing commercials and ultimately it was the wave of mtv and all of those things started being played there i saw all the action stuff but still no movies and i was dying to see moving finally we got to a point where the studio space and a vita was coming over they donnaway played a vita the television version margin chomsky i was thinking i'm gonna see some acting and i didn't really tell a lot of people i was an actor because who wants to work next to a pining actor yeah that's right so in mass they came over and started rewiring our stages and electricians came over like rock stars they were prepping it strong like you you know and they were there for three weeks just stringing cable and then sets were being built and they took all seven stages but i was a non-union lot so whenever they needed something i got it from whether it was grip with electrician it was anything they're always saying thank you at one point they would take me back into the grip room and say here and they put out a little line sure sure you know and say like thank you for all the shit you're doing for us so i what so i do that you only rude no and nothing and i do it a second time and i do it a third time and finally i said to them i said hey look how much is that and he says that's about twenty dollars right there and i said can i say something to you they said yeah of course and i said look i'm trying to buy my first house and i said if you think what i'm doing is cool i could use twenty dollars yeah i'll take a twenty i could take a twenty and i was out of the club immediately sure sure so i said you know i'm an actor they go well we'll come swim in your pool someday and i remember these guys very clearly and i was suddenly out of the club i had done them many they weren't favors in my mind it was just how i worked yeah and so i saw myself excluded because i didn't want to do this i was kind of lucky for me that i didn't like coke yeah well truly there was nothing there for me but because i said i'm trying to build something for my wife was wondering what in the world i'm doing you're not pursuing marketing three dollars and 25 cents an hour and you're happy yeah i said i was happy but i don't know how we got on that jack but i think there's people out there going i'm kind of glad he did coke yeah it makes you much more human yeah i know i've done kilos of it so at 32 though when you have all this opportunity was there somebody's career at that point look at a very apocryphal fun story on the way home from your honeymoon at 22 years old you meet richard burton on the airplane that's wild at 32 when the sky's kind of the limit and you have opportunity was there someone's career at that moment that you thought oh i wouldn't mind having that career no i had this idea that i knew inherently no matter how fast i was going there was going to be a moment where somebody else is going to be the number one actor or something you didn't know that i knew that easily but i actually knew the way i was going to run my career that was probably going to happen because i was frustrating people by not making the second bodyguard not making the second anything and i want to just say i'm not an elitist i would have done it had i thought that the next script that was written was really good they go well let's just make it i said no let's see the script first let me see if it is as good as the first one and then i'll make it but no one wants to do that they just want to green light that second one as fast as you can go so what i felt was i just want to be in that room where i do what i want to do i can see who's having a nice run that's okay by me it's just can i do what i want to do because i feel like i have a relationship with the audience and i was going to bring them a brand of movie that was maybe not in the same genre it was moving around that was another little problem for me that no one knew what to expect on the next one it wasn't in a vein that they could see if you could just make this movie again or one like it again we know how to market that in a way you're a boxer who you've got a great right cross and they're like keep throwing that right and hollywood inherently knows that they want something new but they're afraid that it's not going to make the money that something old does and we've weaned an audience off that we've created the conventional wisdom that they got to be this long they got to be this they got to be that stay tuned for our favorite expert if you dare dances with wolves that's your first time directing i wanted to direct the movie in front of it i wanted to direct revenge i had actually helped write 106 page scripts and not everything i was going to do have the length that people think that i desire when i met ray stark i don't know if you remember who ray stark was he's a legendary tough guy i've done a lot of movies with john rector no producer and a mean guy and john houston was his partner helped him in some of these movies and he didn't listen to ray very much but i had to get past john houston john houston yeah and he thought i was too young to direct oh really yeah he says i think the boy's too young that beautiful voice of his and i thought well fuck you john i'm gonna grow up and not hire your son danny because you were mean to me there's worse guys that get told nobody i've gotten to work twice with dan but john just felt that i was a little young so i acted in that and then the very next movie i directed dancers with wolves okay now i want to ask if it's a blessing or a curse to have the first thing you direct get nominated for 12 academy awards you win to it makes a fucking fortune in the same way that pulp fiction comes out and it's a little bit like i'm a little scared for this guy how do we follow this up did you feel any of that or did you just enjoy the fruits of it i just enjoyed it but what if even in your wildest expectations but i'm trying to be square with you because you've been square with me you know we're talking about drugs and stuff what it was is the validation of the movie encouraged me to do better not rest yeah but tall order i guess it has been but i still think the play is the thing yeah i was looking for a big movie and i'm trying to do revenge i get into this giant fight with them because they keep postponing keep postponing and i read this little movie and i finally said to ray i said look if you don't finally do this movie you kind of made it so i can't direct it now you're fucking around now we're a month into it and there's movies coming by me and i want to do them i read this little movie and if you don't get this shit together in the next week i said i'm going to do this movie the week came and went and if he didn't believe that i was what i said i said guess what hey ray i'm doing this movie and it was a field of dreams the movie in the corn i thought it was special that's just what i felt and we went to war over it and everybody kind of moved away from me even agents because ray was kind of a volcanic difficult personality that would try to ruin careers and so now i'm like the mongoose and this cobra bullshit ricky ticky time i get on the phone with him he goes you know i'm gonna sue you and i said that's the first words out of your mouth isn't it he said what and i said i heard you were a smart guy and then i just stayed silent he's like what i said i heard you're a smart guy what does that mean i said that means you can figure this out you come to me four days after you finish this fucking movie in the corn that's how it went down i feel like this business we're in is plagued by gatekeepers and intermediaries and things keep escalating because no one's actually talking directly right and every time you do pick up the phone call the person directly shit gets done in like five minutes it can and sometimes it can't but let's find out if it can't i think that's what you're saying so dances i knew that that was a moment and i just had to enjoy the moments that would come after that and i would make sure that the movie that i would pick sustained me you can't always tell what a massive movie is going to be but i can tell what a good movie is yeah did you have playback back then not really no i had it on dances though i needed it so i've directed a couple things i started as well and playback's essential if you're in it totally essential yeah i was just curious if back then it was readily available i used playback with my actors i bring them all in that tent i don't treat that place sacredly i don't even the crew look because i love everything about me you want to watch a great take watches i'll even put music on my little stair to play music against it but that's where i work but i don't make it like this is a lot of things you can't explain when you're directing this is why it looks weird you see what you did it's a tool somebody will slow things down well i think it speeds things up how old were you then i think i was 34 when i made it and then edited i became 35 at the moment you probably felt old but now looking back do you not recognize like that's pretty young to take on that movie there was a lot about it that was funny i just knew that the movie was what i wanted to make you're on a mission in a sense that let's just follow the script i'm pretty anal about script i'm not somebody that goes out there and wings it i will leave what i call a window of opportunity which is i go out there stick with the script it's the bible it's gonna work i know it works but if somehow there's some opportunity that i sense i will step through that yeah yeah that makes sense don't you find now i've only directed things i've written and i would never want to direct something i hadn't written because i think when you believe in something from the beginning you understand it from the beginning i think that ends up being infectious to people around you because ultimately as the director you're really getting everyone to buy into the same fantasy that you have created and i think you have to infect people with it i can see where you're coming from i come from the place that i could direct every movie that i said yes to but where the problems exist is when a director comes on who's directing it starts to go well i never really liked that scene or i didn't like the way i shot that scene well isn't that the actual origin of dances which was there was a director and you wanted to cut some scenes i went to three directors pretty good directors and each one of them had a difficulty with some of the issues whether subtitles should be there whether maybe we should just start with them out at the fort screw the civil war thing studio's gonna cut out that first 15 minutes anyway let's start with in there don't meet the guy at the fort the crazy guy who pisses his pants yeah let's just get you out to the fort well i thought okay i hear that but no it's the subtitles i get that but no and all i did was i just looked at myself and i said i need to direct this i have one movie to ask you about and this is self-indulgent but i happen to be kind of obsessed with her because i've watched two documentaries about her whitney houston and i'm curious on that movie if that was a special experience was she nervous she's really smart that was a movie i probably should have directed i just thought somebody could do a better job but he was uncomfortable with her she was my choice so i was the actor i produced it i picked her so you probably have the same fascination i have with her listen the first girl i thought was pretty was diana ross i saw her on that sullivan show and i thought fuck yes let's go that's pretty and i'm like 10 years old i know what pretty is yeah yeah i loved her so it's not like this giant mystery so i knew that she should be the one so in producing it i produced whitney in the movie meaning i put her there i didn't let the director well i'm directing we've all decided places i said no she's in the movie you can direct this movie to laurence casden's script just try to stick with it there was a flaw in the script and even larry talked about it i talked about it about three weeks before the movie started remember it's 17 years old it's the first script that he'd ever sold so it'd been around for 17 years really wait wait bodyguards the first script that laurence casden sold really right and sydney pollack was going to make it somehow it fell through the cracks he goes on to write raiders of the last arc empire strikes back body heat silverado but that was the first one so i kind of asked about it he goes yeah i did this movie and the way he talks is always so distinct and i said well i want to read it and so i read it and i thought i'm gonna make this larry i wanted him to direct it but i think his mind was somewhere else and i didn't think i should i just thought somebody can do it better than me but i really knew who i wanted there was a moment where she trusted me and as i looked at her and i could see the director was afraid of her and he was shooting her late in the day when he just didn't want to get to her i would rather shoot her walking than talking he was nervous he couldn't get out of her i started to guide her i wasn't trying to usurp my director but i had made a promise to her not to fucking him yeah for sure and as a scene partner you want to lift and then editorial we had a real problem that movie was not testing i was testing the 60s and i had promised whitney that she'd be good in it so now we're sitting in warner brothers and have you ever been in that round room at warner brothers where they talk to you oh yeah so i'm in that room with terry simmel and bob daly and the director's there and it goes well i guess this is as good as the movie's going to get so is that a 69 i thought no and everybody was like what i said we need to put about 15 minutes back in this movie kevin like probably that's the problem this movie's getting shorter and you want to make it longer and i said yeah i thought i'd like to put 15 minutes back in this movie i said because i'm going to take out about i can remember this to the state i'm going to take out 28 minutes what how are you going to do that i said about 15 seconds at a time i imagine because we're not going to lose any scenes we're going to put back in scenes he said well i don't think you'll be able to do it i said watch me so i went home and i remember i sat in my bed for two days of the weekend looking at the numbers just right now time code yeah cut this cut that start here cut this cut that and came out to 28 minutes no way that's freaky it did and we barely got out of dodge and that movie went up tested a lot higher i made a promise to clive davis that whitney would be good i made a promise to her clive was managing her yes and we got it larry actually went in with me but i worked this thing and i think we barely got out of dodge but we had this movie that worked and that was my promise to her she's always going to love me in the song i was always going to keep my promise to her a did you sense there was a ton of pain there and b did it break your heart no but i eulogized her and i didn't want to when she passed away there was a steady drumbeat to hear you know she was such a big personality that everybody was going on the air talking that was not my first instinct even arnold after about five or six days ago kevin you need to say something you're seeing people capitalize on it that's gross and yet you are close enough that it would seem crazy you didn't so you're in a very weird arnold tried to explain that to me and then the better words would you come and give her an award at least and talk and i said darn well how long is that he goes well it'll be two minutes i said i can't do it now there was just like where is he but about two days later i get this call it was deon warwick and she was putting together the memorial and she called me and she said kevin i'm putting this thing i said yes yeah the exact thing i didn't want to do i just said yes i could feel the weight on her now it shifted to me what am i going to say about this little girl and went back to that church in newark and it was filled it was electric there was two bands playing the church was alive it was like boom and it was a bunch of people working on the speech i talked to a friend of my army and we both written down notes about it and i tried to compile everything i wanted to do and finally crafted this speech now i'm in there and i'm thinking i really stuck out and i'm sitting in this row and somebody said cnn's here i go cnn's here they go yeah they wouldn't mind if your remarks were kept shorter because they're and i said they can get over that they can play the commercial while i'm talking i don't care but i've come here when i didn't want to speak and i didn't want to do two minutes and i crafted this speech i was writing on the plane i was writing for a week and i look back and i see oprah and diane sawyer and i swear to god i must have been like 13 years i said would you do my speech right i didn't feel like i was the right guy to go up there but i did and there were some people that really wanted to speak and they're kind of staring daggers at me what was i going to say and i started and about 17 minutes later i was done wow and you said everything that i felt i needed to say i watch those docs and i think a the talent is so once in a generation but the fucking work ethic when she was juggling the full-blown addiction and still doing the shows she was a force of nature i can't help but be enamored by the whole thing it was a moment where i knew when whitney came i said look you can't have an entourage but i'm going to take care of you if there's a person important to you turn out to be robin crawford i said let's have robin with you but i said i don't have one you're not going to have one and that's how we started and i knew that it would never be the same for her when she left me and i purposely wasn't a pen pal to her but there was a couple moments where somebody said to me would you write her please i did you must have made her feel really safe that's what the entourage is all about i mean there's a lot of fear i don't know what it was but we had a moment and i realized that the world had a higher idea of who we were so i basically embraced it i was her imaginary bodyguard yeah it's so sweet it works on all these levels and i think there was probably real things that were happening that really helped in what we ended up seeing you were okay quickly listen i'm gonna say this is someone who's directed something that overperformed and i've directed something that's underperformed and it's a very unique experience to go from mega hit behind your wildest dreams to do postman and it didn't do as well financially as i imagine you hoped and then to do open range again and then be right back in the swing of things where it overperforms and it's quickly clean when you're evaluating that phase i can already tell from every story you've told me you're very big on intuition and it doesn't seem like you're shaking easily with your conviction but are you having a little head-scratching moment like well hold on i had the same conviction about this thing and it didn't connect what the fuck happened what did i miss i didn't miss anything it just didn't catch on but the hostility that kind of came behind it people that came out to throw an extra dirt clod yeah well unfortunately we tell stories and you're the victim of stories which is you're at the very top of the mountain and there's only one chapter left in the story it's not that they build a higher mountain next to you and you climb it you're right it's unavoidable so i saw that but the good thing about it for me is if someone watches the movie again they're going to see what i wanted to do in the postman yeah you executed what you hope to do exactly which is the thing you have to prioritize the most but also sometimes you're like well i'm confused why sometimes my conviction is widely appealing and sometimes it's narrowly i don't know why because i'm just following this guy that was the same on that thing that's right and that's a little confusing okay last question before we get to horizon which is this sounds like a silly question now in 2024 because all the great stuff is happening on tv but was it a difficult decision in 2012 to do hatfields mccoy no but it was a trap i remember my agent called me said hey look these people have this thing happy mccoy's they know that you like this era and they were just wondering if their script was any good that was the pitch oh that's a good trick they just want your opinion yes because i value it so much so two things happen one that'll have a little bit of meaning to our things because we'll give your show a little poetry a little kind of like circle back moment i said it is good it reminds me of something i have i have this western i think it's really good and this writing i think matches that in a certain way would you direct it you know like that was the next question i said i can't i mean it was like going fast and i said well this person could probably direct it and they go would you act in it and i said what just happened and i said look i will but when you ask me that i'm going to tell you something i'm not shy about saying if i don't like something if i think something's perfect and i've had about 10 or 12 scripts we never changed a line that's maybe nine more than most people totally so never did change silver honor never did change untouchables never did change fandango or no way out didn't change boulder and didn't change tin cup they were these scripts that had been written and rewritten and i stick to them this is written really well i believe in that so i go i'm not trying to manipulate something but i think that the character needs about five more scenes you know we'll have somebody write i said you could spend two months writing this and all of a sudden i don't like anything you don't have with your writer and i'll do it for you so they had trapped me pretty good anyway now i know how to get you in a movie by the way so four days later i wrote the scenes and i said do you like him and they said yes what else are they going to say yeah it's hard to trust that so now i'm with dancing to buke she says do you want to do this and i said i can do this but do you like every scene in these scripts and she said yes i said so do i but this isn't two nights and she said well that's our model and i said yeah but this is four nights meaning four night shoots four nights of viewing oh it had so much content i got you i did my own trapping yeah what don't you like do you like my scenes yeah i said well it's easily four nights of thing well we can't do that i said i can't either so that word no really helped me there we ultimately like i said to ray i heard you're smart let's figure this out finally the compromise is i said why don't we show this over three nights or four nights with no commercials and then you can cut it up however you want after that but at least the audience will see this thing in its fullness and that's ultimately what happened i always respect nancy because she followed through because she could have bailed on me and said you know i tried really hard but the networks finally crushed me and then they've edited this movie and it never turns out to be what it turns out to be and again this is one of these bolts of lightning it sets records but it's the movie i know what a good movie is i'm not sure what it's gonna be i could tell it was good but one funny thing that happened that's not so funny but you would think that i'd have enough experience so this movie actually had an art director going they were so far down the line it all happened fast and then they told me it was in romania oh fuck wow talk about it and i had agreed to do a movie that i thought was going to be in kentucky or caroline and of course it was how could you miss that one how could you miss that fast one i go i just did so i probably made your fuck up for me to be gone for three months in romania like it's not not the first question you ask for the movie i go well maybe michael kane does but not me but you just dealt with it i dealt with it was such an enormous hit it went beyond and it went beyond not because of me all i did was protected it went beyond because it was what it was supposed to be yeah but still 14 million viewers doesn't happen so i think you're a little piece of that i accept i was a piece of it i accept that i protect people love watching you sorry that's how it works that's what we've learned it was a good story though i can fit in a good story i can't be charming for three hours try it your movie will fail that movie will fail yeah so does that make yellowstone a little easier i see why you occupy that you just did it does that make yellowstone easier to say yes to with the great success of hatfields yellowstone was just a really great script well here comes this boring song from me it was just a great script again it's so fucking enormous are you shocked by that i thought it was kind of good yeah i watched the show right it hadn't been made and also i said would you go over and sell this to the buyers in europe you know because i don't want to make a western about ranching so i'm on a plane there's nobody on the plane with me i land there about seven in the morning i'm whisked to a theater now it's 9 30 and it's filled with like 300 buyers from different countries i said look i think it's kind of pretty good are you going to be in all i looked over the guy that brought me he's wanting to say yes you'll be in seven you'll be in whatever i said no i've agreed to do three and i said but i think this is good enough that it can carry on i'm doing it and i was only one there it hadn't been made and they liked how that discussion went they go there's this little thing called the advertisers down in con they're all there you know all the different restaurants builders emporium and anybody that sponsored movies so i have the same conversation with them you're going to be in this thing and so sold this one season for them and i finally agreed to do three i thought it was going to be one long one i'm in the long but then it turned out it was going to be a series and they first said to me you want to be in seven i said no it ain't happening well five it ain't happening i didn't want to bait and switch i said i would do it so i said i'll give you three three seasons and i ended up you know making five i'm not gonna make you trudge through that no i don't have to what happens is i just believed in the world i knew it was a soap opera i knew we should all be in jail we've all killed people there and so you throw logic out the window right a little bit but he has a great ear and he just wrote that stuff really authentically and it was good fun and he wrote my part especially well in kelly's part so listen i had a lot of fun with it it's a great example of plot the plot is fucking moving in that show like a breakneck it was really good i recognized that so i did it the best i could possibly do it that does set us up okay so as we look deeper into horizon obviously you've had a lot of success in the sports world but definitely what you seem to have this crazy connection with is the western but i know as a kid you watch a movie that's really impactful but i'm more curious what is it about the west that captures your imagination just geographically what does it symbolize and then also historically what is so endlessly interesting to you about it you have a place in montana colorado i think there's something about how big the country was and all the possibilities to go with something big and untouched that was a unique thing i could feel it as a child and to live by your wits and to be resourceful you know you look at the cowboy and the only possessions he has are on his back and on his horse and i thought to myself yeah that's me going to canada getting on a fishing boat i have to look to myself but the west was like the garden of eden it was untouched compare europe with the buildings thousands of years old already and civilization the middle east pyramids and great great cities but what happens is westerns for the most part aren't very good in my mind for as much as i love them i go long and hard trying to find one that challenges me and i see behavior in both good and bad guys that i identify with and realize that in real life there was no law out there the promise was you could go and it was how tough were you to be able to hold on to it there's a great scene where the reality of that hits you you have gotten yourself ensnared in someone else's story by accident and you reluctantly have to shoot a guy and you're in this tiny little mining-ish town i love that you singled that out because people think the west is simple it's way harder than la or con it's like if you have a problem you can go to the store and if that store doesn't have any food you can go to another store and if you got a real problem you can get a lawyer you can get the police when you were out there there was nothing there you can't emphasize enough how difficult that was it wasn't simple how do i arbitrate the life of myself my family who is across from me what do they want and you're talking about a guy who just killed somebody and then was humiliated by his brother he is just unhinged yeah he's trying desperately to claw some and he picks me and he has a history of probably dominating people and he just picks wrong and i love the idea that you don't always know who you're dealing with don't we love that what is that from being five two it's from me thinking when i know i'm on solid ground i know this happened a million times not this time in this movie but this happened in some form we have bullying now in our schools but yeah there were bullies with guns and nothing to stop them they're words that have absolutely no meaning in our culture and back then they were absolutely finite like the word stranger when you saw a stranger in the west it's like the boogeyman i don't know anything about you i don't know if you want my water i don't know if you want my wife i don't know if you want my property my horse i don't know anything about you because you could reinvent yourself oh my god yes okay so really quick you shoot this guy and the folks in town have heard a gunshot they come upon the scene one guy's dead we don't know you're gonna presumably tell them yeah he drew a gun on me i'd defend myself and that's kind of where it ends and people have to decide in town how they're gonna take that you shoot this guy but the problem has just begun you have to immediately reload because we don't know what the reaction of all these other strangers is gonna be do they know this guy are they gonna side with him do they think you're the maniac sky's the limit at all times it is i get the nod from this guy i just loaned him some money and all of a sudden he goes the only favor i can give you is a head start because you're on your own that's part of this four-part series is these people are relentless these people will not stop chasing him yeah they're crazy you have killed a member of a criminal family who's already on the warpath because the patriarch got shot by this woman i also love how many questions you leave like i don't know why she shoots this guy at the beginning i'm gonna have to fill in blanks that's all yeah i'm gonna have to assume the worst about this gentleman would you want a five-hour fucking movie i know it was 350 at one point it was 350 and you knew for sure you couldn't get five minutes at first i couldn't and upon i got it down to discipline i love you i couldn't then pretty soon there it went but yeah the west is terribly complicated there is no one to arbitrate your problems and when you create the correct architecture of dilemma dilemma by definition is you don't know what you're gonna do so if you create dilemma an audience going i don't know what you should do if i'm sad the drama is is he gonna cry and if you want to kiss her but you don't kiss when i want to hit you so bad there's drama is he gonna hit him it exists and not doing something yes drama exists in that moment for me to try to continue to find those moments of architecture and create that and it can exist and if you're lazy you don't find it you have to work hard to find it you know luke wilson's really good in this part yeah yes i'm really excited i did a movie with him idiocracy and i fucking adored him he's worked really hard and he really holds it big time and the word support people on that line they do not know each other right luke wilson is unqualified he just was six feet they voted him the captain and now he's starting to pay a price for it it's beautifully shot i think part of the west when i asked you about geography right away we start in horizon and you have these plateaus behind everybody and you know those things are miles wide if you like fantasy and i love fantasy that to me is the weird magic of the west and westerns it's like my god it's big and it's still there yeah there's no set dressing for you it's still there that's the one thing that we can keep in mind that's probably a little bit to do with yellowstone those mountains are still there there's still work being done on horseback those rivers have not stopped flowing so if we put drama in front of those you do have an opportunity to create something that people revisit i don't know what the other offerings are in the quote-unquote marketplace but i think when you see horizon this is about space now it's up to me to not let it become obvious to find a level of surprise and do you you you in language because language is what drives a western to me not the gunfight but there's also a unique architecture to westerns i was thinking about it a lot while watching it and the westerns have a lot more things unsaid and there's a lot of visual storytelling but horizon is heavily written danny talks about manifest destiny that script between me and that guy isn't you better leave me alone no it's a lovely scene yes and again back to your dilemma but you are talking about the kind of westerns that you've seen that bother you and why that would be hard on you because we aren't just about yep and nope there is should be dialogue it was a victorian age and that's why i lean heavily on dialogue because i believe it has its place in horizon those big long scenes that little boy in the trading thing is he going to kill that man that's a long scene well that was another thing i wanted to bring up that i loved about it is people setting out with good intention i just like the multi-dimensionality of everyone so there's this raid on this settlement a bunch of people are killed and murdered then there's kind of a vigilante group that's going to go out and seek retribution but also there's some bounty related so it's already a little well it's also turning to commerce they said does it really matter to you who the fuck you're going to kill yeah well anyone be able to tell what scalp is what scalp that's right and that's the reality of these situations and who says it doesn't matter the little boy says no it doesn't that's the other thing that gives it such stakes is there's little people involved and you remember oh yeah there were kids along for this ride these are almost impossible challenges for adults to make their way from kansas all the way out here and i've always hated movies where the kids were stupid in an adult world yeah i felt pretty savvy at that age i did too yeah i'm like i would live well i did live i lived through some shit yeah yeah as an adult it sounds like you navigated some heavy shit too stay tuned for more if you dare so how did you come out being so evolved and fun well i was drinking at 29 so i had a good decade of total addiction a.a but who helped you go to a.a well i had a father who got sober when i was 15 so i had seen someone go from a full-blown addict at the height of the crack epidemic i watched an uncle go all the way and then both of them came out the other side from this thing so i at least always knew where i would have to go you like went to a meeting with you i lived with my dad for a couple years in high school and yeah i would go meetings with him so i had a total awareness of it i certainly did not want to join that club no one's striving to join that club so right before i turned 30 i got sober and haven't drank since but i've done all the shit it was a busy day the last thing i want to talk about horizon is just this has not been done to my knowledge i'm not a film historian but no one's attempted to make four feature-length films as a series and release them theatrically so i'm reading interviews with you you're in the middle of promoting the movie you own the movie if you want to bring people to can that's on you there's so much stuff on your plate you've got a 10 acre parcel you've put in the clutches for this at any point during this did you think my god i mean complicated again yeah i did and what i can't do is let go of the rope i can't let my obsession with doing this take people down so i have to just suck it up when i start to feel sorry for myself or if i can't get something solved i have to dig deeper and i have to risk some of these things in my life promises are big things my promise to whitney it's a big thing my promise to hatfield mccoy's might find out it's fucking romanian i still have to follow through and that came from watching movies because for as phony as movies are we realize there's behavior in there that we need to emulate in our life we wish we were that well we're telling the story of our lives and some of us will want to be that person we saw we need to be that person somebody asked me about big moments of cinema i said you know one of the most important moments for me was in giant i don't know if you know the movie yeah rock hudson so handsome elizabeth taylor so beautiful comes from the east coast and ends up in the middle of fucking texas where there's diners or whatever it is and she's like aristocrat or aristocrat she's aristocrat but she's like this is it but she's in love with him and he's a big texas deal money and the whole thing and his son marries a mexican woman and he reveals what a bigot he is and his wife is mad at him you do the architecture of this movie it's a saga it's three hours long my favorite kind of shit so you wonder how i got formed anyway you get to the end of this movie he's still a big deal but he's not the king of the hill anymore he's got gray hair so does lizabeth taylor and they find themselves in a diner where nobody knows him really and the guy's a korean vet and he won't feed them have you seen this movie he's confused he's what and the guy goes not feeding your daughter-in-law who's mexican and your little mexican poos you know i fought in korea i can do whatever i want and he's been a bigot his whole life rock but now he's seen it firsthand the ugliness of it and he sees his daughter-in-law who he really hasn't noticed start to cry and he gets into a fistfight with this guy and they play the yellow rose of chexas kind of corny but they fight and the unthinkable happens rock hudson is defeated they're cutting back to the daughter-in-law wishing they never went in this diner because now her father-in-law is fighting she's crying the baby's crying liz taylor is watching rock hudson get beaten to a pulp and finally he is beaten he's laying he's crumpled he's in the corner the guy looks at him and walks away from him we don't like that in america that that happened elizabeth taylor walks over to him and she gets down on her knees and she looks at him she said you never stood taller yeah girl that line so informative to me as a young man that he was who he needed to be yes i find myself going why have i tried so hard to be in a place where i could fail so miserably in front of so many people so here i am again but i have a movie and i may be up against the wall but i have one thing that i know i give this movie freely in my own mind to people because i know this is the kind of movie i wanted to watch the kind of movie that i needed to see well you know i actually hate learning about your journey on this because my irresistible fantasy is i will be done i've accomplished what i need to accomplish it's time to rest it's time to stop trying to succeed and trying to be great the weight of that will disappear and then another voice is like oh then what's the fucking point and you are demonstrating no you keep fighting forget the fucking finish line if you're here you keep at it it's wildly inspiring you might as well be my horse whisperer because i'm thinking the same thing when i get this fourth one done i need to go find a beach and an umbrella and then go see some solar eclipse somewhere and drift over and see a kentucky derby one time and i have to check in with the fun stuff a little bit i'd like to do that and i think i will but i will never give up my work until i realize it doesn't matter to me anymore right but the story of your life at 69 you've taken on probably the biggest battle of your life which is just fucking wild you frame it really well i dig it it's really admirable well what happens is it's a ufo moment i desperately hope i never see one because what the fuck do you do when you see one you can't not see it anymore so when you tell your friends all you're hearing is no he actually talked to me all day today about how he saw it he came over the thing and he knows people are gonna believe him but he said he saw them four of them and one came to him within inches and then blew in his face and so what happens is if you see one you can't walk it back now you got to get on the show so what happens is i've kind of seen my ufo i made up my mind it was going to take anybody else down but me and so i go i've heard many great things about you from mutual friends and it's been a delight to meet you so thanks so much for giving us so much of your time i hope everyone checks out horizon in american saga chapter one and two the first one is out june 28th that's part one and then you'll be running on august 16th to see part two i myself cannot wait to see the conclusion well a midway yeah the chapter two in this great saga thank you so much for coming this has been great thank you stick around for the fact check because they're human they make lots of mistakes do you like corned beef and pastrami i don't know you don't know i don't think i had it really yes but that's funny that you bring it up because cali and matt went to langers last weekend that's what this is wow and you've never had langers yeah what is it it's just beef right why is it called corned beef i don't know i think it's bad branding to call it corned beef i'm being honest yeah large grains of rock salt or corns of salt that are used to cure the meat that's nice all right now you want to try pastrami that was corned beef oh they're different yeah i like pastrami better i think okay hold on let me get this taste yeah clear your palate ready i'm not really tasting a dip that wasn't a great none of these pieces of pastrami i put in this thing were the good pieces i ate those yesterday but pastrami is a seasoning right yeah they're both like i think they're the same probably cut of meat but they're prepared different ways and yeah it's a unique seasoning yeah i think you're a rebrand they don't because they're classic it's working but i always thought pastrami was a type of meat okay like a cut and corned beef was a type of meat and the corned beef one has something to do with corn and i had no interest in that not that you don't like corn but not in your meat i'll say it i don't love corn it's in my teeth okay how are you adjusted to the time all in all i have to say it's not bad yesterday pretty drowsy again as we just talked about i got a humongous platter of langers and just totally indulged myself i had this platter of meat and then i had the sprint race moto gp sprint race on my dvr and the race race so back-to-back race as well it's just pounding corned beef and pastrami and then very drowsy monica drowsy sounds like a recipe for drows and on day one back to no bcs oh so i didn't have like my because i can't drink a cup of coffee at four i'll be fucked but i can sneak in a dc for just a little pick me up that was off the table okay so i was nervous about the show we attended last night yeah we'll talk about that i was like what was up so early and i was not on dc's in the afternoon what's happening with dc's why are you removing them from the table aspartame well two things happened one was i had a day where i drank i mean i was fucking 100 i don't know it was the day i went to monster jam and i drank a bunch in the day and then i got there i was just slugging them and then i had like a real intense psoriasis-y oh episode okay and so i was like oh man what the fuck and the only thing i could point to is like i had 100 and i've never tried so i mean i can't get my hands on this psoriasis thing everything else good you know with the diet the joints are good whatever so i was like interesting real big flare-up right after that so that was the kernel that was in my head but then by accident one day i like had my morning coffee we weren't recording the day got completely taken away and all of a sudden it was like four and i hadn't had one nor had i had a second coffee and i was like oh my god i gotta seize this opportunity to dial back my caffeine yesterday back to zero today day two all right and you don't think instead of just maybe doing like three as opposed to 100 like instead of doing zero you could do three yes but you know me so well i do i can do zero quite easily yeah i cannot do one you're right one is way harder than it's asking too much that's just not it's not a great point for my disposition yeah it's like sugar it's so easy for me to not eat sugar as of just a policy as opposed to eat sugar on the weekends i can't do that i don't think you're a very big sugar boy you're not a cookie boy oh man if they weren't gluten i love cookies chips ahoy oreos when nate and i lived together we were in this constant cycle of like we need oreos every night until we're finally exhausted of them and we switch this chip ahoy's pellet blender run those into the ground for like three weeks but i'm looking every night now we get on the couch with our little glasses of milk and turn around because you've grown like you have to be aware that that was a long time ago since i won't take away the title okay you're a cookie boy um but since i've known you i've known you before you went gluten free yes yes i've never known you to be like a massive consumer of sugar i'm not and not sugar like i don't fuck with sour patch kids and suckers yeah but i do love a chocolate candy bar i love a molten lava cake you know how i feel about a blizzard and you've seen me and a blueberry donut oh yes you've seen me in action at a dairy queen yeah you know when i do eat sugar i guess to me that's not sugar that's like dairy queen like it's a thing that clicks in your head i can't get this very often so i have to get everything but to me that's separate from sugar you could have sugar right now like you could have it all the time and you don't right but when i have it i want it okay and when i don't have it i don't want it i got it you know it's like on day one of any trip to austin i go to dq and then the next day at like seven i start thinking like oh yeah we're going to dairy queen again yeah and then i just do that every single night while i'm there and then you know i get two things and once in a while you know if you've ever seen me get after the oreos because when i do it it's a full row yeah we go like yeah we're doing this and we're gonna do full row sure again tell me no i can't because you're right and i think you're smart because you know yourself and i i'm asking you to be someone you're not by asking you to do two or five yeah instead of the whole box and it's it's good that you know you can't do that yeah it's just and let's say i could it would require so much willpower that it'd be uncomfortable right no i've seen this if you drink two or three glasses of wine and you're fine you're not like you're not slaying the dragon to resist the fourth i'm not i am i know i want the fourth worse than i wanted the third and i want the fifth worse than i wanted the fourth yeah i know that part's really interesting because for me it's the first that's what i struggle with is i need the first one but once i have the first one i've done it yeah yeah i feel calm i often will get a second one and i guess the third one depends on what kind of conversation is happening right right you're going to enter the zone yeah it's like we're really in and we're going to be here for another hour and a half and i'll do that yeah it's not the alcohol that's right keeping me there i guess you get say i get less satiated the more i do i know it's so i guess if i were you that would be very hard to not just comprehend but almost believe no i believe it and i believe it also because i have seen it in other people too right um and i also have been with people who i can see the struggle of doing i shouldn't get no one yes i can see and it is taking up all of the brain space and they can't even be present right because listen i have done this it's not like i'm the type of alcoholic that 100 of the time i drank i drank a fifth in a case there were times where like i relapsed with one week left without a paddle and i'm like okay i have to drink every night but i have to drink in a way that i don't fuck up the next day so i was like allowed to have two glasses of wine in my apartment oh and i could do that for a week but it's not a win it's like it's such a battle like glasses one and two are fine and then the then i'm in the cage with the tiger battling not to have a third and stay up later and be fucked for work right and at the end of the week i'm smoking um meth out of a broken light bulb in my apartment and i take nine hits ecstasy you don't have to convince me that uh you're an addict oh i believe it i've seen it yeah i know it but and i apologize i've asked you to try to you don't need to apologize i do to anyone who the only thing that's triggering to me is is actually the wordage of like why don't you just exactly it's so loaded to me it's like like it's nothing like why don't you just do this simple thing i know but when you're not in it that's what it feels like well why don't you just do this like that's what i do it's easy but of course it's a different brain chemistry and it's i feel that way too i don't think i vocalize it but it's like why don't you just journal and work out for an hour and a half a day to anyone that's like struggling right but i know that that's not on the table for people but for me it's as obvious as that it's like well i think it's okay advice but if i said why don't you just that's the part like it's basically like you're lazy that you're not this is so simple why don't you just make a gratitude list every day journal and work out for an hour right i mean i think you would feel a little like weirdly judged in the layout of that judge but i think i would also that one feels slightly different to me because it's the specific protocol that works for you and it's like assuming that that works for everyone whereas like moderation for most well the one hour exercise per the england's nhs one hour journal gratitude list is specifically your concoction yes but the workout for sure that's not anyone's opinion i agree that's a better antidote to mild depression than antidepressant except not when you're like i was working out i was walking every day for two weeks and i was like i'm not feeling it that's that is how i knew oh i do need to adjust right because these other things aren't working yes but i recognize that for whatever reason that kind of um routine that i can do obviously is easier for me but i mean i'm not a hero now again i remember when i first wanted to start working out and it was the third glass of wine battle like okay i said i was going to the gym on tuesday thursdays whenever tuesday comes and literally i'm sitting in my apartment for an hour trying to talk myself and then i came up with the hack of like okay really all i have to do is put on my workout gear and drive to the gym anyone could do that and then you'll have to turn around when you get there yeah but once i was i always did it but i did have to trick myself along the way i don't know yeah that was a really great detour uh so did the show last night oh yeah so we went to the reefer madness premiere the stage production stage production for people know 1930s like scare tactic government film reefer madness like a news release show and then uh it was one of the evils of marijuana and if you smoke it once you go crazy and you like jazz music and you get pregnant blah blah and then that became a fun thing people used to watch and get stoned too kind of like rocky horror picture show right then there was a musical made out of that that um started in la then it went to broadway and then kristen was in this yes and they were supposed to open two days after 9-11 so it didn't happen they were starting on broadway i thought she oh i didn't know that yeah i thought she was in it on broadway well but it didn't happen because of 9-11 it never happened no oh all of broadway shut down and then it didn't got it but was she in the movie so then they made a movie of that that kristen was in okay got it yes and now it's back as a musical once again and hopefully it'll end up on broadway blah blah blah kristen's producer on it yeah and so you and i went yes it's vip very interesting portuguese that's what i was calling the um people in the vip section at taylor swift very interesting portuguese um so we see each other at the entrance we talked for quite a while out there yeah then we go and we see the the show that's another couple hours yeah and then i'm saying goodbye to you and i go oh i was wearing i was not wearing pants but i was wearing like a basically like mini shorts but there weren't really many like they were basically like a dipe they were a dipe silk dior dipe yeah and a blazer and tights so i was covered right right right but it was very funny when i stepped up at the end to chat with you as you're about to go yeah and i was like oh did you think maybe i lost my pants something happened to her slacks during the performance she must have spilled some australian or something i had to quickly get them in cold water uh-huh yeah yeah but we we went um super fun it was super fun it's very campy and funny and it's it's a scene and you were triggered because you were at a table with all indians i wasn't gonna bring it up i'm glad you did yeah i love that boy so much karn yeah yeah he's oh my god he's the sweetest you know i've known karn since ucb oh really we did ucb at the same time we were all in groups and his partner is really awesome too and then there was another indian man there and yeah it was racist uh-huh and then kristen felt guilty so she tried to reverse racism me and say i was racist for for calling it out right you're supposed to be colorblind i guess it was funny though and it and you didn't know anyone in the mix yeah and you walked by that table you got all this family's here 100 they think we're all together what kind of flattering is karn this that's what white people say to make themselves feel better right but it is kind of funny because that is true right like you would anyone would think that i would think that yeah and then well you would think they were together whether they were all friends from college or they were family members but you wouldn't think oh there's four random indian folks seated together because that would be segregation which it was inadvertent segregation i think anyone thought like oh yeah they're all indians stick them together well we weren't on people table you guys would have fucked everyone up i think there had been any kind of test of connections oh can i talk to you about something important yeah about connections oh that was a way to deliver yeah it's been brewing oh wow for like three days oh um i'm sad about something what i feel like now when you have made mistakes you don't send it in but i i i come on and say it i know can you even send your of course oh you can yeah i mean i do like if mine is a big old mess i still send it i send it if it's six and i get it but if you run out oh you can't literally i was like when you run out and it's like maybe next time i don't even think there's anything to send so then i quickly go onto the thread and own up to the fact that i didn't get it i'm not saying you're like hiding it because originally when we first started playing you would send not getting it and then like early early but not getting it meaning i would send in the results or i would send the results yeah and sometimes you wouldn't have got it at all oh so you're saying i have sent in you have oh i thought i have sent in the time whatever i get we're on the same page sure so that has that happened and i was always very proud that you said especially when you first joined the group yeah yeah i had a feeling that you weren't going to send it if you didn't get it and you did and i was happy about that right because that means we all are aware that we're on the same level and we're fine to show when we just can't get it yeah save save fail that's right yeah so i got worried some days ago that's truly a confusion because again i do immediately go on and go i can't i know so i'm not hiding it all right this is good to clear i think way more important than that was the fact that you and i were soul sisters reverse back i don't think that's happened yet now i can tell i can own up to a shortcoming i have which is once i fuck up once i almost don't care and then i just am very reckless i don't try to salvage it much that's fine i care when it's going to be perfect well in order i care the most if i get purple first then blue then green then yellow which we call a reverse back which our listeners our long-time listeners will know that's what we invented here yes which was some kind of curious but yet to be defined sexual act we just knew it sounded sexual we didn't know what it was we weren't sure but now we coined getting reverse order on connections so getting purple hardest blue green yellow uh reverse back right do you hold off if you then see the easy one before guessing yes well that's exactly how i my method is to go on i click the four easiest ones now i'm only looking at 12 then i try to find the next and then i wheel that down to the remaining eight um but then once i get that and i and i submit it and it's like fucking green i'm so pissed so already level one of me starting to care less that's silly i know but i'm owning this um and so it's still good if you don't get a reverse back because we also try to get uni p's which means each one of us in the group has a different order that's also very exciting for us yes yeah once i get the error and i'm only and it's highlighted because i'm only going for purple yeah i like a reverse back yeah i'm not going to act like i don't that's my goal yes but i'm still very happy if i get it no mistakes me too i'm kind of like detailing the levels of my interest and dedication to it if i get purple first i'm fighting to the end now but even if i get blue first now at least it shifts to i gotta get out of this thing perfectly right but if i make a mistake on the first one going for purple i almost don't want to play anymore yeah because today i get really reckless there was a potential yes literally rob was a clue yeah and i i got a little excited i did say if they ever says wabi on there that's obvious it's done yeah because it doesn't mean anything wabi there's no what would you but well it'd have to be what's the name for that when you spell a word differently but it makes the same time and uh hominem hominem so it could be a hominem for japanese food so it could be oh my god although wabi's not okay it's the first it's a hominem for the first part of an asian phrase um i don't know she's cheeky she can if anyone can figure it out yeah okay i did something yesterday before we for madness i went to this event um sort of a marketing event but then we had panels and speaking and i got to interview jason sudeikis yes how long was the interview 45 and did you come in with a bunch of set questions i did okay you know we barely we got to like one of you because we just started chatting lovely um and it was really fun and i really liked him good yeah he's very charming he said he sends his love you and christian ah lovely i haven't seen you in a really long time very long time very charming yeah and the day before i thought i was in palm springs yes you did that's what you told me the first time right turns out it was in carlsbad which is san diego that was a yikes and i had already invited jess and i said oh you know i have this thing tomorrow it's in palm springs and he was like he's like do you want me to go with you so it was unethical because well it's a big bait and switch it was and i felt unethical once i learned it was in san diego i didn't tell him um but this all happened very fast it was the day before he said do you want me to go with you and i said yes and then he came with me and it was so fun how long was the drive two and a half hours it was not terrible because you left at rush hour yeah we left at the worst timing possible but it was only two and a half hours and then two and a half hours back oh that's great yeah it wasn't bad well we were in the hope yeah which was fun i heard motherfuckers saying they made hope i heard hope say okay then make another hope i like jay-z me too we listen to some we listen to music oh on the way you said it like that was like the most novel thing you know we rolled the windows down a little bit yeah that did happen and he put his hand out and i said put it back in because i thought maybe he would get his hand chopped off yeah if anyone might lose an arm exactly yeah music is a joke between jaz and i because he picks up from the airport a lot too which is very nice and he always says we'll play music as a incentive yeah speaking of carrot the restaurant had a steakhouse which we went to and it served one carrot oh really one enormous carrot yes anyway so that was a fun little 24-hour adventure yeah okay no this is for kevin costner the cost okay i have a couple facts you said that california would send oranges people on the east to get people yeah yeah train cars full so that made me want to look up state fruits oh interesting segue i'm gonna read some this is a list okay if you want to guess feel free i only know three okay alabana okay alabama fruit not vegetable fruit alabama's fruit the pineapple no way blackberry weird okay arkansas oh you're not gonna like the answer apricots nope vine right pink tomato i guess they say it's a fruit they do they do say that florida by the way so specific vine right pink it's a pretty looking tomato i bet it is okay uh florida orange yes georgia peaches that's next oh look how pretty idaho we can't say corn no it's gonna be a berry or something yep blueberry close huckleberry yes huckleberry pie what is a huckleberry it looks like a kind of it looks like a blueberry on this picture oh it does oh i was thinking it looked more like a raspberry or booze and berry or booze and buddies uh is michigan cherry god i hope oh hold on illinois gold rush apple kentucky i love i'm sorry half-eaten gold rush apple kentucky's a blackberry louisiana louisiana strawberry maine wild blueberry yeah great pick maine massachusetts cranberry really quick you know i think a lot of this does reflect what order they join the union like if you're maine you're one first one in or or connecticut or whatever yeah you grab blueberry or something i don't think isn't it what grows there yeah well but these things grow everywhere so these apples grow in probably 15 states michigan's got a big apple industry but if they see ladybird or lady smith little pink ladies already taken they can't take it there is an available list but i don't think the peaches in other areas are as good as in georgia i don't even know if they make the best peaches but they definitely claimed it first they make the best i think california makes the best of everything it does i do no it really does like i remember my brother's father-in-law on grocery stores and he would go to these grocery conventions once a year and he said that at these grocery conventions 49 states would make up about half of the hall and then just california was always half the hall well do you remember when we were in india and we were at the market nuts most of the nuts came from california we crank out the food from the sandwalking valley and yeah okay minnesota honey crisp apple missouri norton cynthia grape nope norton cynthiana grape new hampshire pumpkin that's cool it is but not very appetizing but they thought outside the box yeah again fruit pumpkin i guess so new jersey high bush blueberry new york they had to say high bush blueberry because maine already said blueberry i know but guess who okay new york are you reading the same list okay i know but he is right they got the original apple right that's what they call the big apple exactly i just learned that though just as you were saying yeah okay north carolina oh you're not gonna like this cherry scupper nong grape north dakota choke cherry ohio tomato regular sorry they were early on too so they were able to say tomato they didn't say steakhouse for us thinking tomatoes are fruits because i still have a very hard time with that you think that's worse than pumpkins pumpkin is like a fucking tuber i know but a pumpkin i could see in a salad more than a i mean opposite sorry tomato i can see in a salad a vegetable salad much more than a pumpkin let's just say that all fruits universally i think this would be the best criteria to find a fruit is if you would want them on a hot summer day like a fresh plate of blank a fresh plate of pumpkin on a hot summer day no fucking way love that okay oklahoma strawberry regs that's cool oregon pear it's not on here well it might be it might be alphabetical rhode island greening apple south carolina peach wait there you go oh mco oh no now i don't touch this list because i was saying tennessee's tomato also tennessee texas red grapefruit let me see if michigan's on here that's not on here oh my god what a shitty list okay hold on michigan fruit i think it's about the 12th most populous state michigan it doesn't have an official fruit apples cherries and raspberries oh my oh boy oh my it's not a fruit you've never heard of it okay no no let's just wrap it up are there anything here i know he'll stall him for a second oh okay well i guess we'll resume afterwards yeah we can pause we're not gonna spoil but we did easter egg just interview someone who's now at the top of the best boy list i mean like maybe past jimmy sorry yeah might have flown by it might be the number one best boy we've ever interviewed we have an extra yeah i won't look like him here's a clue it doesn't look anything like jimmy kimmel no that's right okay but you were saying bts we had a pause because we were going long we had a guess but now we're back now i have another list and now i have another list and so kevin said finished with engines and it's a naval term he was talking about that it was a movie and that made me want to look up what are some military sayings that have become popularized oh great okay roger that roger that rather than yes under the old nato phonetic alphabet the letter r was pronounced roger on the radio radio operators would say roger to mean that a message had been properly received the meaning involved until roger meant yes today the nato phonetic alphabet says romeo in place of r but roger is still used to mean a message was received i'm gonna start saying romeo that okay also bite a bullet okay why would you bite a bullet fighters on both sides of the american civil war use the term bite the bullet but it appears they may have stolen it from the british british army captain francis gross published the book dictionary of the vulgar tongue in 1811 and used chew the bullet to explain how proud soldiers stayed silent while being whipped oh wow yikes okay so time to put the thing in your mouth and get your whipping yep balls to the wall i know this one going balls out okay but even deeper because that's even not military and i only know this because i toured jay leno's garage and he collects steam engines and steam engines would have these set of weighted balls that were on little pistons and they laid flat but as the steam gained momentum it spun it and then when it lifted through centrifugal force the balls directly out horizontally balls out that was full throttle oh yeah yeah okay it says for military aviation where pilots would need to get their aircraft flying as fast as possible their control levers had balls on the ends pushing the accelerator all the way out balls out would put the ball of the lever against the firewall in the cockpit balls to the wall when a pilot really needed to zoom away they also push the control stick all the way forward sending it into a dive obviously this would put the ball of the control stick all the way out from the pilot and against the firewall very phallic experience big time um bought the farm oh it means to die i know that part but why thought to date back to 1950s jet pilots there's no clear agreement on exactly how the phrase came about it could be from war widows being able to pay off the family farm with life insurance payments or farmers paying off their farms with the damage payout they received when a pilot crashed on their land or the pilots who wanted to buy a farm after they retired being said to quote buy the farm early when they died the first one feels most plausible to me um oh caught a lot of flack flack is actually an acronym for german air defense cannons the germans called the guns boy no way okay um you're gonna try okay i can try flagger obwer kanon flagger means flyer obwer obwer means defense and kanonin means cannon airmen in world war ii would have to fly through dangerous clouds of shrapnel created by flack the phrase progressed in meaning until it became acquainted with abuse of criticism that's cool have you read catch 22 which you haven't you would be super aware of flack it's all over that book like in the german way he was a gunner on a plane in world war ii and they were constantly flying through flack fubar snafu tarfu we talked about snafu i think all three were their acronyms fubar stands for fucked up beyond all recognition love that snafu is situation normal all fucked up and tarfu is things are really fucked up you know one that i learned while in africa with a dude that was an active green beret is they would say things were a real soup sandwich you can't possibly eat it and i really like that well this is a fucking soup sandwich okay i like this geronimo geronimo is yelled by jumpers leaping from a great height but it has military origins paratroopers with original test platoon at fort banning georgia ding ding ding yell the name of the famous native american chief on their first mass jump the exclamation became part of airborne culture and the battalion adopted it as their motto okay we know in the trenches that's obvious got your six military members commonly described direction using the hours of a clock whichever direction the vehicle unit or individual is moving is the 12 o'clock position so the six o'clock position is to the rear got your six and the related watch your six comes from service members telling each other that the rear is covered or that they need to watch out for and be attacking from behind no man's land was widely used by soldiers to describe the area between opposing armies in their trenches in world war one it was then morphed to describe any area that was dangerous to stray into or even topics of conversation that could anger another speaker nuclear option on the double anyone who has run into a military formation will recognize the background of on the double quick time is a standard marching pace for troops and double time is twice that pace meaning the service member is running doing something on the double is moving at twice the normal speed while completing the test okay screw the pooch oh here we go screw the pooch was originally an even racier phrase fuck the dog it meant to lope around or procrastinate however by 1962 it was also being used to mean that a person had bungled something now it was more commonly used with the latter definition bungle is a great word yeah i don't use that enough maybe that'll be my new over index oh wow okay that's all for that list that was a fun list i know you did not bungle it thank you i feel like i learned something he mentioned ahab so son of successor was the son and successor of king only do you know it because he's referring to the lead character in moby dick that's what the reference is about a man who becomes crazed and obsessed with killing this whale okay it brings people down in his pursuit of that well he was the son and successor of king only and the husband of jezebel of sidon according to the hebrew bible he was widely criticized for causing quote moral decline in israel according to the yahweh's um and he was talking about moral decline when he was talking about this so i'm not sure oh i am because i heard him give the exact this one happened actually no he gave the exact same analogy in a different interview talking about ahab from moby dick who was named after this okay yeah so it's all about it's the same thing yes yes okay but he's been saying to people basically horizon is not my moby dick right okay well that's it that's everything what a blessing he was yeah legends are cool legends are legends for a reason legends be legending um similar to your pants i just realized your whole shirt is ripped yeah my pants are not ripped okay great i thought you were telling you they were also shopping you do it's shocking that you were in tattered clothes this is vintage it's a look was that intentionally put in that huge hole no but vintage items get holes because they're old yeah my shirt that i'm currently wearing is my very favorite velvet by graham and whoever they made a cut they don't make anymore the side is cut like this and i only have one left and i wear this frequently and in the back just below the label it's starting to get real cheese fluffy but it's okay i think it's cool to have holes like i have i had a shirt that was my favorite shirt from high school it was my ex-girlfriend stephanie's junior high athletic shirt you would be hard pressed to find a photo of me between 92 and 96 when i'm not wearing that shirt have we said bye yet are you about to notice something in the room no i just i thought we said bye and i didn't know if we were still recording after we were just talking oh no we hadn't said bye yet you said that was it and then you did uh well you may be like a cue for me to say goodbye and i told you about t-shirt well no yes exactly you were yawning and stretching and then you know this pancake size hole it's large yeah it's a very big hole um and again i saw at the very end is small according to the chocolate we had from david today all right love you