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Welcome to the new books network. Hello and welcome back to the New Books Indian Religions podcast, a podcast channel for the new books network. I'm your host, Dr. Raj Balkaran, and today I have a pleasure of welcoming to the podcast Dr.
Kiyokazokita, who along with Dr. Rembert Uther-Harms are co-editors of a brand new braille publication, part of their Interlogical Library Series. And this is of course the building of Uren Davina, architecture, theology, and practice in early modern pilgrimage town. Kiyokazu, welcome to my guest.
Well, thank you for having me. Yeah, you're going to tell us the backstory about this. How did this project come about? Yeah, so it's been sort of long time in making, actually.
So this is a part of a project research project called the Goswani Era, the founding of the Goldia Bishnism in early modern South Asia. So that's the research project located in the Oxford Center for Indian Studies. And as a part of this research project, now it's like eight years ago, 2017, in September, myself and my colleague at RCHS, remember Ruchi Himes, we organized a conference at Oxford, and then the title of the conference was exactly the same, the building of Uren Davina. And yeah, after the conference, we collected the proceedings.
Yeah, and then, you know, obviously for different reasons, it took some time, but yeah, in 2024, last year, finally it was published from Brazil. So we're very happy to see this. Yeah, come out. I think the town of Uren Davina at the same time for many listeners will need little to know introduction.
And for other listeners, they might be intrigued about this town, or may have heard it in passing. So what's significant about Uren Davina? Yeah, so you know, for this volume, Uren Davina is the focus of Krishna Devotion, and mainly in the texts, of course, starting with the Mahabharata and, you know, Hari Vamsa and the Bishnipirana and so on, but more so with the slightly later texts called the Bhagavatapurana, these texts depict the sort of Leela or pastime or place of Krishna, who is the omnipotent omniscient God, but who nevertheless comes down to earth to spend time with devotees and do all kinds of things, killing demons and so on. So the point is that the Vrindavan is the place where this divinity of Krishna, according to these phuranic texts, descend that to earth and then spend the sort of childhood pastimes.
And then all these narratives are well known in India and beyond. And the devotees of Krishna now go to these places, Mahaturavrindavan, Govardhan and so on, for pilgrimage, for visiting temples. And then also there are many sort of tombs or what's called samadis of saints. So devotees circumambulate and visit these tombs and then also places like Yamuna, river Yamuna, where Krishna is said to have spent time with the covered women and so on and so forth.
So mainly for devotees, it's of interest for their religious purposes. But now because the town of Vrindavan is not so far from the capital of India, that is Delhi, New Delhi, and then it's about three hours of car ride. So even if people are not necessarily committed devotees, but then I believe many people just go and visit as a place for tourism. And then it's very popular, haven't it?
In my personal opinion, it's a little overcrowded depending on season, but nevertheless it's a place of spirituality and pilgrimage. Yeah, fascinating. There's an intriguing division of sections in the book regarding builders, building and buildings. So tell us a bit about the layout of the book and if you'd like maybe even touch on some of the contributions.
Yeah, sure. Thank you. Yeah, so this book consists of eight chapters plus introduction. And these eight chapters are divided into three sections.
And the first section is builders, second section building, and the third section buildings. It's slightly, you know, maybe too close to each other in some ways. But the so the first section builders touches upon the communities of Vrindavan. That is to say how the devotees in the early modern period, they saw the town or the village of Vrindavan.
And then as the devotees kind of came together, inspired by these sort of charismatic religious teachers, such as Gushan Chitanya and Baba Bhatta. So the first one was the founder of Gaudiya tradition. And the second one is the founder of the Balabha Sathr Daya or the Pushdi Marga. So and then many other saints and then following these saints, many devotees came to Vrindavan.
So the first section builders, this section looks at how these devotees saw each other and then how they envisioned this town of Vrindavan, the village of Vrindavan. And the second section building, in this section, it's more about the kind of conceptual imagination of these devotees, not so much how the devotees saw each other, but then how these devotees understood. And envisioned the Vrindavan, what it means to be Vrindavan. And for example, Baba Hulich, the chapter of three, I believe, talks about the Vrindavan is the kind of portal from which you can kind of access the transcendence.
Why? Because the this town of Vrindavan, which you can just visit, taking drive three hours from New Delhi, anyone can visit. So it is a geographical place where you can spot on Google Map today. But then also it is considered to be sort of identical with the eternal domain of Krishna's pastime.
Krishna's Lila. So if you absorb your consciousness in some ways, then it is believed that you can sort of access this eternal realm where, you know, this Krishna and the Gopis and the Gopas, the covered boys, they're eternally hanging out with each other. And then supposedly you can, you may be able to access some of these. So these devotees theologians in early modern period, they sort of understand this town of Vrindavan, not just the place of pilgrimage, but then also place that connects us to the transcendence.
So this is kind of literally an theological reflection of what it means to be in Vrindavan. And in the last section of buildings, it is coming back again to the very concrete place of Vrindavan and this building. So now if you go to the town of Vrindavan, you see many, many, many temples, Mat, Samadis and so on. But the one of the prominent buildings even now, but then also in early modern period, the one of the most prominent temple is the Govindadev G temple, which is right at the heart of the town of Vrindavan.
And the three articles in this section look at this particular temple, Govindadev G, and in how it was conceived of in terms of theology, but then also in terms of politics, because this temple and many other prominent temples received the grants that is, like financial supports from the Mughal Empire, people like Akbar funded. And then also the prominent Rajput King, like the Kachabakh King's Man Singh, they actually was, they were hands on supporting supporting the construction of these buildings. So these three articles in the section of the last section of the buildings look at the, mainly how this prominent temple, Govindadev G, were kind of built by theologians, but then also by the politicians and warriors and administrators and so on and so forth. So during your process, both contributing to and editing this volume, what's up to you, what sort of struck you, what did you, were the findings pretty much along the lines, what you expected, or were there some really sort of remarkably incense to be observed from that perspective?
Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, of course, the, yeah, many contributors, you know, they've been working on the authors, they have been working on this tradition of Krishna Bhakti or the place of Vrindavan, you know, the people like Hadi Pawals, Baba Heartledge and Jakali, Cynthia Packard, these contributors, they've been working in Vrindavan and the with Vrindavan for many decades. And, you know, so I read the works and I also, for my PhD, I was working on this author, Gaudia Bajnava author called Baladevi Devusana, who was active in 18th century in Vrindavan, but then also in Jaipur and my PhD topic was intimately related to this temple of Govindadev G and so on and so forth. So obviously, I'd be familiar with the sum of these, you know, the contributors works, but still what struck me, I mean, there are many findings, I would say, and then some of the findings I remember, for example, is that in the first section, builders, the two contributions by Hadi Pawals and Manz-Bru, they both sort of point to this intriguing phenomena where when you look at the writings of early devotees in Vrindavan, so by early, what I mean is like a 16th century.
So that's the time when this village or the town of Vrindavan was rediscovered, so to speak, and it redeveloped. It's rediscovered because it was, you know, a history before 16th century, obviously, the Madhudha Vrindavan, this area has been known as the place of Buddhism and Jainism, so these erotages were known, but then the point is that, you know, by the 16th century, there weren't much, especially in Vrindavan, there weren't much. So what we know now as Vrindavan, you know, if we trace the history much of it is starting with the 16th century rediscovery and redevelopment, but then these articles by Pawals and Bru, they point out that if you look at this sort of the early period of writings, then what you find is that there's not so much the kind of consciousness between, you know, this is my, these people are my group and then those, you know, are okay, maybe they might be great vice-abas, but then they are like others. So in other words, you know, nowadays we may see, you know, some sort of like the rivalry, even, yeah, by the time you reach 17th century, 18th century, there is some tension that you can see, like for example, between Gaudia sampradaya and Balabha or the Busch demargi sampradaya, you know, there's been like a conflict in terms of like, for example, Shunathji, this famous deity who is said to have appeared in Goberden Hill, originally, the Gaudia's worship in it, but then it has been claimed by the Busch demargas.
So there is a kind of a conflict over, you know, who owns this particular image and who has right to worship and so on and so forth. So, you know, when you get to 17th, 18th century, there is a kind of like a rivalry, like we are the sort of best devotees, sort of, but then when you look into like it is early 16th century, there is not much of that. And then for example, Hadi Powell talks about this figure of Haridam Bias, who for whatever reasons we don't know, who did not become the founder of any particular sampradaya. So Haridam Bias, you know, for him, he praises devotees, Imbrinav, like Rupa Goswami and Balabha Bhatta likewise, you know, here is this devotee and there is those devotees and then they're all immersed in thinking and meditating deeply on Krishna.
So he doesn't really differentiate or categorize devotee in terms of sampradaya-ic lines. A safer Ontario means more police and prosecutors making sure my car doesn't get stolen. It means building new jails to keep criminals behind bars. And it means there is no need to wear me when I play at the park.
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Paid for by the Government of Ontario. And then Manzbru's article on this ritual manual called Haribak di Birasa, written by Aetribhina Thi, a gopala Bhatta Goswami, but then now his latest work argues that it was actually written by Samakkos Sanatana Goswami. But either way, gopala Bhatta Sanatana is the earliest church fathers, you might say, the earliest theologians of the tradition of the accordion in 16th century, writing ritual manual for lay people to how to worship Krishna. It's very sort of unsectarian in a sense that this ritual manual also teaches how to worship Rama or Narasimha or other Vishnu avatars like Kuruma and so on.
So if you want to worship any of these Vishnu avatars, that's fine. And then also there is accommodation, accommodating different avatars, worshipping many Vishnu avatars, so you don't have to be kind of exclusive to think of Krishna. But then also this ritual manual does not talk much about Radha. So obviously in terms of Goji tradition, the Bhatta Vaijna Vaijna Vaijna Vaijna Vaijna Vaijna Vaijna with Ruhadha is the sort of the quintessential of the highest manifestation of divinity.
But then this worship of Krsna with Ruhadha is a particular vision of divinity, which may not be shared by other traditions. Like for example, if you look at the Sri Vaijna worship or the Madva, Sampar Daya worship of Krishna, then they don't worship Krishna with the gopis. They worship Krishna by himself. Or if they worship with the consorts, then the Krsna with the queens of the Vaijna, like Satyavama and so on.
So this worship of Gopi covered women with Krsna, it is a specific understanding of what it means to engage in this Madhuri, Bhaktivasa or this devotional sentiment of eroticism, which may not be shared by other devotees. So this worship of Radha is not really emphasizing the Bhaktivasa and plus worship of Chetanya, this is not prescribed at all. So which is important because of course, again, for the Bhaktivasa, Lord Gaudiya's, Chetanya is the kind of duo, Abattara, combined manifestation of Radha and Krishna. So for the Gaudiya's Chetanya is the kind of the object of worship.
But then again, if you are a follower of Balabas and Pradaya or the Nimvaraka, Sampar Daya, then obviously you don't worship Chetanya in the same way that Gaudiya's do. So this Halibaktivasa, this ritual manual, it praises Chetanya at the beginning as a matter of authors' exhibition of respect to his teacher. But then it does not instruct the ritual worship of the founding father of their own tradition, which makes it more accessible to those who are not necessarily committed to the Gaudiya vision of divinity. Fascinating.
So regarding this idea of the building of the nalvana, what came to mind as I went over the papers were, the chapters were, was this rich idea of construction and the extent to which, to what extent would you say this book is about the construction of Radhaavana in terms of literally physically, architecturally, and to what extent is this book about the construction of Radhaavana in terms of religiously or conceptually? Yeah, so yeah, thank you. We tried to cover both aspects actually. So one of the, one of the things that the elements that we, as editors tried to keep in mind was to make it interdisciplinary.
So that is to say we are, I guess you could say, you know, many of us, or the country, most of the contributors are in the field of religious studies, but nevertheless, we tried to kind of diversify the approach. So I would say the, some of the works are from the Angvav history, but then also more specifically art history. So the elements of art history that comes across at the last chapter by Jack Hollie's contribution, for example, is about paintings, the paintings of the Scobino de Apti Temple and painting of Brindavan, but then painting that is located in Amair, which is the, the, the, the, the one of the important city for the Kachabaha dynasty. So they have palace there and then within the palace, they have this painting of Brindavan.
So that is art history. And then, it's simply Parker, her contribution talks about the, the, the motif of Gabor Dan, the Christian uplifting the Gabor Dan Hill, which is the kind of relief, really, really, that is at the entrance of the Gabor Danv, which is situated in a very prominent place. So she talks about how this motif came about and why it was it that the discussion about her King, the Man Singh was, was, was placed in this particular image in Brindavan, because, you know, obviously, Gabor Dan is a different area than, than Brindavan. So why is he implementing this stone image in the prominent place after Gabor Danv, the Gabor Danv, the Gabor Danv, the temple located in Brindavan and so on.
So as, as these two authors discuss, you know, the paintings and relief, the stone relief of Gabor Danv, the temple, they also discuss the history, how this construction was supported by the, the mables and the kachabhas alike. So that, that, you know, this discussion bring in a lot of historical discussions, but then also the article by Ramburt. He talks about more sort of from theological literary perspective. And likewise, David booked us a chapter on Rupa Goswami's poetry and how the sort of natural, natural scenery is, need me sort of described in Brindavan's poetry.
His chapters, I would say, kind of look at more sort of literary side of, of, of, of this construction of Brindavan. For example, David booked his, his article talks about how Gabor Dan sort of functions as, as the, would deepen a Biba, that is to say the, the stimulant factor that is contributing to the production of, of Rasa, for example. So the, the style of Brindavan is sort of constructed by these, you know, administrators and devotees with the stones, but, but then Ramburt talks about the temple of love. But then it's, it's not just this move of funding and kachabaha funding, but then, and then it's not just about this red sandstone, which is a very prestigious material, very expensive material, but then behind all this, or like embracing all these funding and the materials of stones and so on, is this, this idea of devotion, that is to say this, this, this, this either the Brindavan as a natural habitat, which is stimulated this devotion, or this in, in specifically in Ramburt's essay that talks about going that they've located in this place, which is called yoga pit, that is the kind of like a power center, so to speak, like a speech of power center.
Um, is, and, and then that, that location is also understood as a kind of secret meeting place for Rada and Krishna and so on. So it's this, this temple, remember argues that it's, it's, it's not just the construction by the administrators, but then also there, there, there's, this is a temple of love, that is to say this devotion is the kind of basis that manifests that that, that is the organizing principle of, of these constructions. So I would say that the, the, the overall this, this volume kind of looks at the development of Rindavan historically and then how it is completely built from, you know, starting with the Earth's early modern period, especially 16th century, but then how this sort of theologians and devotees idea kind of organize and design and influence, but then also again, once these temples developed, you know, and, and this temple becomes kind of inspiration for, for devotees again, you know, for their devotion. So it's kind of kind of, you know, feedback of phenomena that's happening back and forth.
So, yeah, so coming back to your initial question, I would say we address both sort of in terms of theological ideas and literary ideas, but then also the history or the history, the concrete sort of materiality of this town of Rindavan as well. Excellent. Thank you for addressing that question. Clearly there are some very rich insights to the glean from each of the contributions, but what, what you say about takeaways an impact of the volume as a whole, but what you hope folks might take away from us?
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. And then I was myself pointing about this because it is a contribution by the, you know, different authors and then each topic is fairly diverse. So I'm not quite sure if there is any sort of like overall conclusion as such, but maybe if there is, you know, overall a point to be made, then yeah, again, I would say the importance of looking at the, this, this tradition of Christian devotion from multiple perspective, and I haven't mentioned this essay by a guy back on music. Please do.
Yeah. Yeah. So for example, he, you know, he argues, he makes this point that the many scholars looking at the Rindavan, you know, texturally, historically art history, religious history and so on, but then often people forget the, forget music, but you know, without music, there is no Krishna. He makes, I like his, this, this citation at the end.
There is a popular Bengali saying that without Krishna, there is no song. So if there is no Krishna, there's no song that is Krishna is the God who plays the flute and so on. So that is the popular saying, but then he kind of twists the saying and then he confludes his chapter by saying that without song, there is no Krishna. So in many ways, you know, Christian, this, this devotional music and the practice of singing like the Samajgayan and Kirtan and so on, where devotees come together and sing together, or, you know, some artist might perform a solo and then devotees might listen and so on.
So the music element is important. He argues that it is the vehicle in the context of Krishna Bhakti, it is the vehicle through which devotees can pursue liberation. So he points out the importance of music, which, which, you know, for myself, I'm a textual scholar mainly. So I was not very familiar with all the technicalities of Raga and Tala and then how they're incorporated by the works of early modern version of the devotees in their little works.
So, you know, it was very eye-opening. So if anything, you know, I think maybe one of the points that we can learn, or the readers may learn from this, this, this volume is the importance of interdisciplinary approach and this tradition and culture of Krishna Bhakti is very diverse and it has multiple aspects starting with art history and music and dance and theology. So it's a very, I guess, sense-oriented tradition and then it's a very absorbing and in rich tradition. So I think if anything, maybe that sort of richness of sensory engagement is something that maybe we can glean from this volume.
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that question. There's certainly this second relate to being a textualist and always being brought back to lived experience in terms of how I write interpret texts and these metaphors. I keep coming up with them studying religious phenomena in terms of nutrition, versus culinary arts, whether it's a taste in or music, or music historian, or you know, you're studying the structure, Mozart's score, or do you understand the power of theistic experience that he's facilitating?
It's rich in that sense. I feel that musicologists are a rare breed in that. One needs to be versed in the intellectual and in terms of secularist or not, in terms of secularist or all textualists of sorts in terms of learning to be able to sift through sources and make sense of things intellectually. And yet they also need the ability to relish, the ability to enjoy, the ability to discern and taste.
I like that you bring in, you emphasize that richness. And I do feel that what you say about the interdisciplinarity of the work is in itself a major contribution in terms of looking at a sacred space and the various disciplinary trajectories that intersect in that space, in that layered cake, if you will, of experience. And I think that itself is rich in that. I mean, there are other studies and volumes of sacred spaces indeed.
But I think this one is maybe not uniquely but certainly remarkably interdisciplinary in its approach of that space. And it's a sort of question about whether the work is about the physical construction of a novel or the conceptual construction of a novel. And so it's a sort of a rich takeaway in and of itself in showing the ways in which these various dimensions interpenetrates and sort of cross pollinate to produce the disfenomenon. And yet one gets a sense that we barely scratches or a sense that there's so much there that I imagine the warrants for the work and further examination research.
And so was there anything? Yeah, please feel free to comment. And in addition, please share if there was anything else about the project in general or the book in particular that you wanted to share. Yeah.
So I guess personally, I've learned a lot. This was for us, I believe for me and for Remember the first edited volume which we produced. So for me personally, it was a learning experience because as a textual scholar, I tend to sort of kind of just read my texts in my own comfortable solitude. And that has its own fun.
But sort of working with the scholars in different disciplines, I learned a lot and then I sort of learned to appreciate and also learn to work with the others and appreciate the values of different perspectives and different disciplines. But then also I've learned how to just completely manage the time, working with other people and then like communication and all that throughout like a different time zone and so on. So I really appreciate you, Raj. I see that you're interviewing like every week, you know, and different regions and different types of scholarship.
And I'm sure these activities have challenges intellectually but then also administratively and so on. So I really appreciate your work and really thank you for having me and then making space for this edited volume. You're very welcome. I was laughing to myself as you were speaking in that there were various different work experiences I had over the course of putting myself through school and my degrees and I never thought what actually contributed to my career proper as a scholar and his teacher.
But all of my experiences with people with coordination with counseling, with administration, it's all sort of come together and yes, I mean, if I allow it, it would be a half time job just booking his bookings, scholars for the bottom. So I appreciate that what has to be the various skills and to be juggled intellectually and also sort of emotionally and socially to pull this off. I've only had one taste of this proper. I go at it and follow you last.
I think it was, I don't know, times one of these things, but no comments on science but narrative and so that's great. And of course, this is a solid piece of scholarship and there's certainly interest in it. I've been email some time back about this because that question, this is going to be of use to other people's research, perhaps might spark some interest among grad students, search on either chapters are readable, there might be those teaching who knows what our history, religious studies who may well want to sign a chapter or two. So that's the joy, the joy of this work is making the findings available to those who may otherwise know that they exist and then folks into with the data as they please.
So thank you very much for being on the podcast. Yeah, sure. Thank you. Thank you for having us and having me.
You're welcome for those listening. We have been speaking with Dr. Kya Kazokita on the building over in Davina, a brand new real publication, all the details on the podcast notes. Until next time, keep listening, keep reading and keep contemplating the complexity of secret spaces.
Take care.