KOL491 | Trying to Persuade Paul Cwik of the Case Against IP

Kinsella on Liberty Podcast: Episode 491. https://youtu.be/lfjpoKCWBDA I've known Paul Cwik, Professor of Economics and Finance at the University of Mount Olive and fellow of the Mises Institute since I started attending the Austrian Scholars Conference in 1995. He is an Austrian and libertarian of sorts but had some qualms with my anti-IP writing so presented a paper "Is There Room for Intellectual Property Rights in Austrian Economics?" at the Austrian Scholars Conference in 2008, which I attended and commented on. After 18 years we finally decided to get around to talking about this. I had planned on an hour but we ended up talking for 3. It turns out we were old friends but not that close; we didn't know much about each other. So the first 30-50 minutes or so is more preliminary discussion. To his credit, he read a good deal of the huge deluge of material I sent to read up on and asked many very good questions. He did not engage in intentional equivocation that is characteristic of many on the pro-IP side, and he was reasonable in conceding many of my points and was willing to ponder my push back. I was hoping to get him to see the light, since I have in person seen many people change their minds on IP after a long discussion but have never had it happen while recording. We did not resolve the issue, partly because we just didn't have enough time to keep going, but I think we made some progress. Maybe we will have a Part 2 later. Who knows. For now, some relevant links pertaining to some of the topics discussed. I will organize this better later. (Not to be confused with Bryan Cwik, who also has opinions on IP: “Good Ideas is Pretty Scarce”; Bryan Cwik, "Property Rights in Non‐rival Goods" (2, 3, 4); "Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights" (2; 3); Gamrot, Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights: Against Cwik.) IP Proponents Do Not Even Know The Difference Between Patent, Copyright, Trademark …  Types of Intellectual Property It is impossible to own ideas Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes The “Ontology” Mistake of Libertarian Creationists See the Appendix to What Libertarianism Is: section “Concept and Definition of “Property”” The Structural Unity of Real and Intellectual Property Gamrot, Labor as the Basis for Intellectual Property Rights: Against Cwik The “Ontology” Mistake of Libertarian Creationists Objectivists: “All Property is Intellectual Property” A Recurring Fallacy: “IP is a Purer Form of Property than Material Resources” New Working Paper: Machan on IP “Aggression” versus “Harm” in Libertarianism Kinsella v. Schulman on Logorights and IP The Nature, Properties, and Characteristics of Goods (Igloo Coolers case) Fraud, Restitution, and Retaliation: The Libertarian Approach Libertarian Answer Man: Bitcoin and Fraud KOL274 | Nobody Owns Bitcoin (PFS 2019) On Property Rights in Superabundant Bananas and Property Rights as Normative Support for Possession Libertarian Answer Man: Self-ownership for slaves and Crusoe; and Yiannopoulos on Accurate Analysis and the term “Property”; Mises distinguishing between juristic and economic categories of “ownership” There are No Good Arguments for Intellectual Property Defamation as a Type of Intellectual Property (and trademark) KOL207 | Patent, Copyright, and Trademark Are Not About Plagiarism, Theft, Fraud, or Contract KOL020 | “Libertarian Legal Theory: Property, Conflict, and Society: Lecture 3: Applications I: Legal Systems, Contract, Fraud” (Mises Academy, 2011) Copying vs. Plagiarism: A Recent Illustration—Grau vs. Hernandez on Milei Re the practice of attribution and credit: see Stephan Kinsella, “Mises, Rothbard, Hoppe: An Indispensable Framework,” in  Rothbard at 100: A Tribute and Assessment, Stephan Kinsella and Hans-Hermann Hoppe, eds. (Houston: Papinian Press and Property and Freedom Society, 2026), in the section “Excursus: The Role of Ideas in Human Action” “Copying, Patent Infringement, Copyright Infringement are not “Theft”, Stealing, Piracy, Plagiarism, Knocking Off, Ripping Off“ Intellectual Property Rights as Negative Servitudes Stop calling patent and copyright “property”; stop calling copying “theft” and “piracy” IP Proponents Do Not Even Know The Difference Between Patent, Copyright, Trademark …  Fraud: A Libertarian Theory of Contract: Title Transfer, Binding Promises, and Inalienability, Part III.E “The Title-Transfer Theory of Contract,” Part IV.C Labor and Leisure Rothbard on the Main Fallacy of our Time: Marx’s Labor Theory of Value KOL037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory “Hume on Intellectual Property and the Problematic “Labor” Metaphor” Cordato and Kirzner on Intellectual Property Labor, Value, Metaphors, Locke, Intellectual Property Concise Tweet on the Problem with IP Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward: Part IV.D: "Overreliance on “labor” metaphors also leads to confusion about IP. Locke correctly argued that the first person to “mix his labor with” an unowned resource owns it, since he thereby establishes an objective link to the resource which gives him a better claim to it than latecomers.[55] However, Locke based his argument on the confused and unnecessary idea that a person “owns” his labor and “therefore” owns resources that he mixes it with. But labor is not owned—it is an action, something a person performs with his body, which he does own—and this assumption is not needed for the Lockean labor-mixture argument to work.[56] This mistaken notion leads some people to favor IP because they figure that if you own a scarce resource because you mix your labor with it, you also own useful ideas that are produced with your labor. The related Smith-Ricardo-Marx labor theory of value, which underlies Marxism and socialism, is also sometimes used to support IP, as when people argue that if you work or labor, you “deserve” some kind of reward or profit. All this focus on labor must be rejected as overly metaphorical and confused, and, frankly, Marxian.[57]" On Libertarian Legal Theory, Self-Ownership and Drug Laws: p. 632 Libertarianism After Fifty Years: What Have We Learned?, p. 687 Creationism: Libertarian and Lockean Creationism: Creation As a Source of Wealth, not Property Right Libertarian Creationism KOL012 | “The Intellectual Property Quagmire, or, The Perils of Libertarian Creationism,” Austrian Scholars Conference 2008 KOL037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory Part III.C.2 C. Contract and Fraud Arguments for IP Fraud and Plagiarism “Copying, Patent Infringement, Copyright Infringement are not “Theft”, Stealing, Piracy, Plagiarism, Knocking Off, Ripping Off“ IP by Contract I discuss problems with the contractual argument for IP in: Kinsella (2008, pp. 51–55) — Against Intellectual Property Kinsella, April 8, 2025. “KOL458 | Patent and Copyright versus Innovation, Competition, and Property Rights (APEE 2025).” Kinsella on Liberty Podcast. Link Kinsella, Law and Intellectual Property in a Stateless Society, Part III.C Against Intellectual Property After Twenty Years: Looking Back and Looking Forward, n.46 June 13, 2021. “Richard O. Hammer: Intellectual Property Rights Viewed As Contracts.” C4SIF Blog. https://c4sif.org/2021/06/richard-o-hammer-intellectual-property-rights-viewed-as-contracts/ 2023t, Stephan Kinsella on the Logic of Libertarianism and Why Intellectual Property Doesn’t Exist, text at n.52 Jan. 8, 2025. “David Gordon on IP.” C4SIF Blog. https://c4sif.org/2025/01/david-gordon-on-ip/ See also Wendy McElroy’s perceptive comments on this issue in Kinsella (March 19, 2013). “McElroy: ‘On the Subject of Intellectual Property’ (1981).” C4SIF Blog. Link Bouckaert (1990, pp. 795 & 804–805). Bouckaert, Boudewijn (1990). “What is Property?” Harv. J. L. & Pub. Pol’y 13, no. 3: 775–816 (attached) Related Links Hoppe on Intellectual Property The Universal Principles of Liberty A Selection of my Best Articles and Speeches on IP Key Works The Problem with Intellectual Property (2025) “Intellectual Property and Libertarianism”, Mises Daily (Nov. 17, 2009). Concise case against IP. An Overview of Libertarian Property Rights and the Case Against IP (from KOL341) How To Think About Property “The Overwhelming Empirical Case Against Patent and Copyright” Other Recommended KOL483 | The Economics and Ethics of Intellectual Property, Loyola University—New Orleans (a very good recent overview) KOL 037 | Locke’s Big Mistake: How the Labor Theory of Property Ruined Political Theory Shownotes/Topical Summary (Grok) Stephan Kinsella with Paul Cwik • 2 hours 56 minutes In this nearly 3-hour conversation, Stephan Kinsella and economist Paul Cwik explore their personal histories, shared libertarian and Austrian foundations, and engage in a detailed, respectful debate on intellectual property — particularly copyright. Kinsella lays out his principled case against IP while Cwik defends copyright (but rejects patents). Timestamps & Detailed Summary 0:02 – Introduction and Casual Catch-Up Kinsella and Cwik greet each other and set the stage. Cwik explains he has wanted to discuss IP with Kinsella for years because their views differ. He notes he has persuaded people in person on IP and hopes to document the conversation. They acknowledge this is not a typical Kinsella podcast. 1:38 – How Long Have They Known Each Other? They reminisce about Mises Institute events. Kinsella’s first was in 1990; Cwik started attending in 1995. They recall the Austrian Scholars Conferences and the tight-knit Austrian community at Auburn in the 1990s. ...