Lamar Hurd and Mike Prada

And now the low post. Welcome to the low post podcast. Happy Thanksgiving everybody and I've had a couple teams on the mind. Two teams have been kind of weird seasons, both of whom as we podcasted about over the summer, lock themselves into gigantic contracts for franchise guards.

First, we're going to start with the Portland Trail Blazers and we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon. What a difference a week or so makes the blazers were on top of the world, nine and three, all the all the all the blazers fans who heard people like me saying it's kind of a lot of team five hundred team yelling, screaming, taunting, then Damien and the other players, calf strain, X up, they've lost four out of five. And I'm interested to see what this team is and to talk about it. I'm going to gash you up right off the bat.

Lamar heard who does the color commentating alongside Kevin Calabro is a star in broadcasting is and will continue to be a star. And you're annoying to me in that you're one of those people who can sit courtside. I don't know if you watch the game or you watch the monitor a little bit of both. And every time I see some sort of interesting X's and O's wrinkle, like, Oh, look, look how they rotated against this pick and roll from the strong side and instead of the weak side and I'm going to write about this because no one spots this kind of stuff in real time.

There goes Lamar heard being like, so if we slow down the film right here, I'll say Lamar, man, it's great to have you on him. A huge fan. Hey, thanks for having me my fault. I didn't realize I was messing up your writing because as you know, I'm a fan of your writing as is most of the NBA world.

And so I'll be a little more cognizant of that throughout my analysis because I'm not trying to mess anything up. And really, no seriousness, man, this is my first time being able to join you and I had a chance to tell you this one time privately, but I like to say publicly like, do I really appreciate you because my first year of broadcasting in the NBA world. I remember there's this one morning I woke up and my phone was going crazy. And I didn't know what was going on.

It was my first two months of being with the trouble lasers. And the first thing I'm thinking is, Oh, my goodness, I got in trouble or I did something, but I didn't know what I did. And I opened up the phone and I see all these notifications about Zach Lowe writing about us and his 10 things he likes doesn't like. And so that was really big for me, man.

I appreciate you kind of welcoming me in to the world that you already a part of. So I'm glad to join you today. Let's chop it up about the blazers who are 10 and seven, seven and four with Dame three and three without name. They are thirteenth and offense, eleventh in defense.

And the West as they fell from first to eighth in like a blink of an eye, they're 10 and seven. I somewhat infamously called this roster blah blah. I said blah many times before the season and by blah, I just meant 500 don't really see an upside better than 500. And although they've fallen back to not 500 but closer to 500 than they were.

And it's clearly going to be a battle just to get out of the out of the play in the West because the West is that loaded. I do think this team is better than I thought they were going to be there's certainly the athleticism and the length around the two star guards and Nerkich in the middle really jumps off the page. They're creative. They're well coached.

I still don't really know where they stack up in the West. And that's in part because the big boys in the West haven't really been the big boys yet. I mean, Utah is still right near the top of the West. Golden State is 12th, I think in the West.

What's your what's your assessment of this team? Are they closer to the nine and three team? Are they closer to like a 44 win team? What you see them up close every day?

What's your takeaway from the first 17 games? Yeah, I don't know if I have a conclusion for you to your direct question. If I had to pick something I'd say somewhere in the middle, what I have gathered from this team so far this year is they are going to be competitive in a way that they have not been in my seven seasons so far being with the team. So I've been a part of some good rosters.

I was here for the team that made it to the Western Conference Finals. And there's been a lot of big time play. You know what Damien Lillard has done. You knew what C.D.

McCollum did. You know what they did in tandem. The year when you some nurkage first got acquired. That was my first season with the team as well.

And that was a team that went from outside of the playoffs to in as when all the Portland caught what was termed nirk fever and I forgot about nirk fever. Yeah, nirk fever was rolling man. Nirk fever was rolling and really it was until he got injured in 2019. So that year when the team made it to the West Conference Finals, nirk wasn't healthy for that.

That's the year he broke his leg. So he's you know, been trying to bounce back and just get consistency from that. This team though, Zach, every game I go in, I know that they're going to battle and that sounds like something very simple. But that's not something I could have told you each of the previous few years where you knew without a doubt like I don't know if there's going to be a win or loss or got going to shoot well or if turnovers are going to be prevalent or what.

But at the very least, I know there's going to be some competition and that's been the case with this group. So because of that, like you're Kenny Smith take this all the time on inside the NBA, he'll talk about how if a team just plays hard, they got a chance to win. What a blazer's are that team with some heavy offensive firepower as well with the name was available right now. When Anthony Simon's I think he's gotten to a place where a lot of the NBA world, a lot of people have respected him and they realize like the kid can really play average at 23 points right now and kind of plays a similar way his name.

So even when Dave is out and Anthony's plugged in, the team doesn't have to revamp their style of play. He they have a lot of the same moves he'll get downhill, he'll find guys. And so they have the differences but also their similarities that allow them to still be consistent. And so I think it's just too early to know really with any type of true confidence what it's going to look like in the win law standings.

But you can have a confidence that this team is versatile. They're going to defend they're going to play as hard as they can from start to finish. And the one thing I'm looking for Zach right now is for the team to kind of get back to some of the things they were doing in the first couple weeks of the season, which is they were playing with such a high level of intellect. Like I bet those are some of the games you were watching and saying, Oh, look, they did that.

Oh, they started off in two three zone. Oh, they went three quarter court press. They fall back. They go zone for the first 10 seconds of possession.

Then they close the last 14 and then they're switching within a possession like they were doing so many things. But everybody was always locked in. And there's been a couple games here over this last the last few games here and some of these losses where mentally they have not appeared as locked in as they were to start. And that's something I think they can and we'll get back.

And then you'll see the one start to pile up again. Yeah, they I mentioned they're 13th and offense 11 and 11 and defense. I think they need to be better than 13th on offense and that they have the talent to do it. I mean, Dame and Simon's are averaging 50 combined a game and Dame hasn't really had like a name year quite yet.

I mean, sneakily, I don't know how people have noticed they know the injuries. 42%, 33% on threes. His turnovers are way up. And I noticed that this morning and I watched almost all of them on film.

And I don't know what you've seen. There's like a lot of sloppy, like losing his handle and traffic. A lot of trying to make passes that aren't there. Like, like, guys aren't open, defenders are in passing lanes.

That's a little strange. What have you made of that? It's been really weird. Here exactly.

Right. I've commented on that a few times. And the best answer I can have for you is it almost feels like he's getting re-aclamated in different ways. And here's what I mean by that.

So he missed most of last season. He came back this year's his first time getting back in the games last season. His absence was as long as he's ever had in his career. He's never been injured like that.

And so getting going, I don't know if it's just, you know, the new style of the play, which he's trying to incorporate more passing a little more ball movement. It just looked like he was trying to get that rhythm back. Then he has the cap string a little while ago. He comes back in the game at Miami.

That was one game that was very most for me because I feel like in the first half of that game, he had like three turnovers where we go commercial break and I look over at Kevin. I'm like, what's up? What's going on with that? This isn't normal.

This is not this is not like a normal turnover that he would commit. And that was him again, coming back kind of reintegrating himself into the lineup at the time. So that's my best answer. I mean, we got to see what happens when he does come back again.

But yeah, it is unlike him. And what you pointed out is encouraging to me the fact that this team has had a success they've had. And Dame hasn't even been what we know he's capable of being an essay in a lot because he won Western Conference player a week earlier on in the season. And then even have the kind of games we know he's capable of having.

In addition to that, the team as a whole is turning a ball over at a rate that just doesn't make sense for them 24 hours they have 24th and turnover rate, which is you actually associate the opposite with the damey Lillard team kind of a not predictable, but you know, he knows how to run this offense in his sleep. I pick and roll wing picking roll with the side of the floor clear and her kit slips in with the Mount spas like this is this should not be a high turnover team, even with a young co-star guard, even with, you know, trying to figure out the bench identity with Winslow running a little point and shade and Sharpie and just the most delightful roller coaster entirely. This can't be 24th and turnovers. And one of the trickle down effects of that has been they have the worst transition defense in the league on an efficiency basis.

And if you boil that even further down, it's all off steals according to cleaning the glass like they're fine off rebounds, they're getting killed off live all turnovers that feels kind of just random to me, but they're not a team that's designed to play the turnover game. They don't they're not going to force a huge amount of turnovers. They shouldn't commit this many turnovers. Definitely should be committed as many and everything you just said is again, an encouraging sign where those are things the team can control like they're having a lot of turnovers that the defense is not forcing them into some of that goes back to some of that ball movement.

The team was trying to play faster at the start. It's not just Dame high pick and roll the way it has been years past. What what Chauncey built is trying to do is try to get some movement first, get the defense shift, then go high pick and roll, you know, maybe hunt a mismatch, but go quick and get some movement and the blasters actually just lost the game against who was it? I'm losing track now here, not saying Antonio Brooklyn Brooklyn, Brooklyn, lost game against Brooklyn because in that second half, they were going to high pick and roll trying to hunt mismatches Brooklyn will switch in now.

Everything is stacking everybody sitting there, they would just force up a bunch of bad shots. So there's if you look at some of these losses recently, it's stuff that's easy to point to stuff that's easy to address. And throughout this season, I thought Coach Billip has been really good at addressing things, making certain adjustments, getting these guys ready to play. So I think all in all the teams still in a good spot because they still possess that DNA of a team that is going to play hard all the time, play together and reincorporate the intellect and all that stuff.

Then again, the win start coming back. Yeah, I think Simon's a legit offensive star. I mean, the guys he's averaging 23 a game he's got he's got that more do and you've seen it. I mean, he goes on these streaks of three point shots where it just looks like he'll never miss again.

It's so clean and so crisp. Nurkich is just doing what Nurkich does 14 and 11 just nirking around. And Jeremy Grant has found, you know, I talked to I talked for years about how he didn't like his role in Denver, went to Detroit and got to be the number one guy found out that that brings a lot of pain and losing with it. And has found this perfect water level.

I kept talking about how I wanted to find a place where he gets in between that and finds his water level as a player. This is it 19 a game, 47% on threes. Second option, sometimes third option, sometimes can focus on defense still doesn't revound but what a perfect perfect role. This seems to be a good offensive team.

The defense being 11th has been the surprise of the year for me for them, you know, and it was top 10 for most of the year until this until this slide. And we let's talk about how real we think that is because there are a couple of minor warning signs. Number one, they allow a ton of shots at the rim, a ton of threes, and the second few is mid range shots in the league. That's not the shot diet you want to be allowing in 2023 for the most part.

And number two, you look at their numbers not early, maybe the sample size means nothing. They're doing fine when lillard plays by himself without Simon's they're doing fine when Simon's plays by himself without lillard. And they're minus 15 in the 253 minutes they play together mostly because they're getting smoked on defense. And I've seen that movie before in Portland where two small guards are getting smoked on defense.

If they can maintain a top 10 to 12 defense, they're a legit 4748 win strong playoff team. Do you think they can do it? Yeah, so here's my here's the thing that I would have as a retort to what you said about the shot profile they're given up. I would ask how many of those threes, how many of those shots near the rim, or what you would consider a contested shot.

Because when these guys have been locked up like when I'm talking about the intellect that they've been playing with that's been different to me than years past. Yeah, it might be a guy shooting the three might be guy getting around a paint. But these guys were flying around Zach at a level that I just hadn't grown accustomed to and they were doing it with intellect. So it was the right rotations.

It was the right size defender going out to contest a certain shot. It was communication and time of okay, yeah, we're forcing it some of it was was forcing the ball to certain three point shooters. So if they can tap back into there was a sharpness that they played with that has kind of dissipated a little bit over the last week. If they get that sharpness back, I'm not I'm not fearful of that shot profile because as you're watching the game, you're not it don't even feel like they're giving up good looks because in theory and in concept, you tell somebody yeah, he got he just got a 10 foot shot.

All right, but did you also tell him Jeremy Grant was flying at him with that wingspan? Did you tell him that, you know, the dude just got hit a couple times before on a box out or communication things that that wear you down a little bit before you get those shots. So there was just a different level of attention if they're playing with before that if they get back to that, which I do believe they will, I'm just I'm just not as concerned about that shot profile as maybe I should be. No, I don't know the answer.

There's this is a whole debate in analytics of like is there such a thing as allowing the right three point shooting right or is it just all luck? I've been a believer that there is a real thing of coaxing the right kind of three point shots from the right three point at least at least like to some degree. Obviously, there's always going to be luck. I just don't believe maybe it's just because I want it to be true otherwise like what are we all doing here if the whole thing is just like I want it to be true.

And to your point before you said that you know, they're pressing their plane zone only Miami has played more zone so far, they're switching between all sorts of schemes. They still play that aggressive pick and roll defense that got slaughtered last year where they'll come they'll bring their catch and you banks who just by the way drew you banks just wants to dunk everybody into oblivion and volleyball spikes shots through the floor man. He doesn't just block shots. He wants to demoralize you with his block shots.

They'll bring them up to the level of the screen, not quite a trap, but pretty close, which risks, you know, death by passing and moving the ball around that for open shots. But to your point, when the when the other three guys around that are some combination of Grant, Josh Hart, Justice Whistle, Justice Winslow, we haven't seen GP two yet. When they're long fast, jumpy guys, all of a sudden, you can cover the ground that you need to. And to your point about their intellect, I guess this is part this is coaching and players being being dialed in.

But some of the plays I highlighted last week, they're just on it, man. When they're on it, they're on it. So I highlighted this one play where New Orleans ran a play that happens 25 times a game, a pick and roll with one shooter on the weak side. And the goal is force that weak side to defender who's the typical help defender, you got a choice, you rotate inside to help on the big man, roll into the rim and leave your dude open or you stay home on your dude because he's a shooter.

And that big guy, Valentune, I think it was rolls in for a dunk. The Blazers sniffed it out right away. So hold on, we got two guys on the strong side. Normally we don't help off the strong side.

This time we are and you can even see Justice Winslow pointing before the pick even happened. It's your help down there. And by the same token Phoenix, I don't know if you saw this in my column, they had this play that they run a pick and roll with Chris Paul and Devin Booker as the pick and roll is happening will cut corner to corner from weak side to strong side. It's a very unusual cut that Danny Green used to make with the Spurs that you don't expect is you don't want guys cutting into the strong side.

It works every goddamn time. Defense is like, what's going on? Where's them? Oh, Devin Booker just made an open three.

The Blazers, I my guess is they studied that play and prepared for it because when Booker started his cut, they knew what was up and sniffed it out. It's that kind of stuff, man. That's real. Dude, it is.

That's what I'm saying. So when we went to Dallas a couple of weeks ago on that road trip where the team would have blazes going forward four and two, Derek Harper called me over and he said, Hey, is this real? Is what you guys are doing? Is it real?

Because I've seen a little bit, it looks real. And I told him what I just told you. I said, Heart, the thing that is is new to me that I haven't seen at this level is how smart they are playing defensively and with how much energy is not just flying around just for the sake of it. It's exactly what you just did.

Like there's been there's been seasons by a sec where after a good play will happen in the game, I might go home and make like a video dissecting the play just so the fans can see it just so they can see some of those little things that I know you watch when you watch games. There have been more of those moments this year than there have been in my six years combined. The problem is we've been on the road. So a lot of it's a place on my road trip, that's the same road trip.

Otherwise, I would have been at home making videos of this stuff because there's been so much and so that's what I'm saying when you ask me is the defense reel, can they be in at 10 to 12 range, maybe even cracking at that I truly believe I can like this. I don't have any reason not to believe it based on the level of strong evidence that I've seen early on in the season. Speaking of road trips, you're on a Thanksgiving road trip. What are you doing Thanksgiving on the road?

You got plans of someone like, can you get a turkey or going to a restaurant like what do you do on the road for Thanksgiving? So the team, the team graciously invites us the broadcast crew the traveling party to all have a dinner together. So we'll have a dinner together. And then you know we got the two games you got the next in the Brooklyn game kind of before and after.

And then also for me, now my alma mater, Oregon State, they have a big football game this Saturday against Oregon's the rivalry green. There's a thing you get in that game, isn't there like a jug or a barrel or something that you're not on the sign one of those? Yeah, I don't watch it. But now you just get to talk smack for the rest of the year.

But it's a big game because Oregon, I believe, still has a chance to make it to the roles bowl. And so there's nothing to make Oregon State happy to knock him out of the spoiler. Spoiler, play some spoiler. Yeah, I know you're a four year Oregon State guy.

Unfortunately, for podcast purposes, you're much younger than Gary Payton. Otherwise, we would have had just some incredible Gary Payton college years stories that would have been would have been delightful. Well, that's nice. I like to I like to picture Chauncey with a chef's head on to the blazers.

Some of the names we mentioned, it's interesting to look back at that Covington norm Powell trade to the Clippers, where everyone's first reaction, including mine was like, that's it? That's all they got for those dudes like those dudes are those dudes are pretty good. It's just fascinating. And even before Robert Covington is first got COVID and now it's kind of out of the rotation with the Clippers, it became clear that I think Joe Cronin, who's the GM now in the front office, kind of at least value goes to players correctly.

Like Robert Covington was on an expiring deal, like didn't didn't have a ton of trade value. Norm Powell's contract is really long. He's a really good six man spot starter. I think that contract had neutral to like maybe slightly negative trade value and in return.

They got Justice Winslow, who's helpful. A couple of second round picks, Kian Johnson, who they're going to they've given shots here and there and has looked okay. Yes. And they saved a lot of money to sign Peyton and sign Simon's and and you know, the New Orleans trade from last year, obviously, it's painful to part with CJ.

I liked it for Portland right away because I love Josh Hart. I thought they were going to get the Pelicans water pick that did not pan out, but they got a trade exception that they turn into Jeremy Grant with along with that pick and and and they've kind of just they really did kind of remake their team in a way that feels more like kind of artistic and complete than it seemed like was just sort of tearing down chaos at the time. Yeah, it's not coincidence. I don't know if you got a chance to meet Joe Cronin yet.

I have a conversation with yeah, extremely bright dude knows what he's doing. And he worked in tandem with Chauncey Phillips throughout the solve season to make sure Chauncey had a kind of team that he wanted the type of competitors defense minded type guys that he wanted and he got that and think about what you said about the New Orleans big almost got the world is big didn't get it. So what you're seeing right now is like more of the spectrum of the worst case scenario than what could have been the best case because you get that picked to then who knows what that turns into and what Joe's able to do with it. So the one thing you know about Joe Cronin is he is not afraid to make big decisions.

It's not going to be an emotional spur of the moment type decision like he thinks this up through he knows all the contingencies plan A through Z and so even a situation like that he knew what the worst case could look like and this is it this is a pretty good worst case scenario and he's going to continue to you know try to fortify this roster will be the first one to tell you this isn't a done deal but it's all worked out and it's given so we were talking about the defense. One thing you've seen is the roster that Chauncey has now I think allows Chauncey to be kind of coaching wants to be he needed these kind of players so you can see what he's able to dial up and so I think it's working well for everybody right now but you know we'll keep an eye on it because you know Joe's work is never done he's going to look to continue building this thing but so far so good. And you nailed the next big question which is this is not the complete team two three four years from now never is they obviously signed him to a new max extension on top of the max extension that will pay him and this is a real thing. Sixty three million dollars in 2027 yeah Simon's they got a four year deal about a hundred million looks great good deal Jeremy Grant becomes eligible for an extension on January 7th seems like a good bet he's going to get an extension seems like you know it seems like you know make that trade without having thought that one I thought that went through you do that you're not going to have cap room essentially probably for the whole entirety of Damian Lillard's contract.

Cap room in Portland never get you much that's how you end up with that in turn or getting a gazillion dollars and Alan crab getting gazillion dollars and and all that. And so the question then becomes if this team is just topping out at good and by the way there's nothing wrong with good there's nothing wrong with good good give ourselves a puncher's chance at something like 2019 I always defended them on that people always like oh Portland they'll lose in the first round of year you know what they were good and ask the fans if they liked it ask the fans if they liked the memories name and CJ gave them as the fans if they like to think about game seven and Denver they liked it it it's okay. In this but but this is why there's just this endless is is damn okay now everyone in a ring is going to trade his way out of out of Portland the but then becomes if they locked themselves into that team are they just are we living the same movie over again obviously they've got one big wild guard one big upside bet and that's shade and sharp I love what I've seen from shade and sharp so far other than getting lost off the ball on defense which is every single rookie ever pretty much I just don't know if it pops in time for names whatever's left of names prime when you zoom out and look at the team through that lens is it just sort of lets enjoy the ride and see what happens or do we already need to start thinking about these these questions. I I know that these conversations are being had and I know just being good isn't enough so I'll tell you really quick a story something to happen last season so last season game got injured and you know throughout my time with the team I don't ask for guys numbers I have a lot of the guys numbers just through our proximity with each other in our working relationship but I don't ask for any other numbers so if they haven't given it to me I will have it I never had names number I would see them you know maybe DM on social media that's how we communicate by never has phone number so middle last season I kept getting this text message from a California number and I had no idea what number was and so I want to respond to it because I just typically don't respond to numbers I don't know.

We goes by I keep getting messages. Lamar hit me up give me I'm thinking this must be some college but you ask me for a ticket to the game or something you know because I'll get that I'll get the random numbers and stuff and so I go to the renal one I and our former social media manager comes to me and says hey are you like purposely not responding to the game like are you getting in that he said he's trying to get in touch with you and I said what do you mean I think I said what do you mean I said I've been trying to get in touch with me and I said wait time and day and you're being time and day and so I say I say wait what's his number and so she ran out the number and it was the number that was sent to me so then I went back home tonight and I hit the number back and I was like dude you got to tell me it's you you didn't say anything that said it was you right so you know we get past that and he kind of jokes about it he said the same thing he's like make a big time in me now and I said no I just said no so we got past that Zach it's like midnight he asked me what do you think about our team and I'm thinking what do you mean what I think about saying like just right now because last season was rough like you want to talk about this group or what are we talking about he's like no zoom out big picture what do you think what do you think we got here what do you think we can do and you know we hadn't have this conversation before we've had a lot of other conversations but not this one we go for the next three hours it is 3 a.m. and he is texting me about the whole big picture of what do you think is real what do you who do you think we can get here why do you think that what my wife is next to me she's half sleeping first she's like you still on the phone I was like I'm not after I've been ignoring him for the last I'm not about to tell him right now to end the conversation so I got to finish this conversation I'll get you out we go to like 3 a.m. 4 a.m.

I don't remember the time it ended but it's around around those hours and his whole thing was taking the the holistic approach of all right what's what's real and what's reasonable because as you probably learn from Dane he thinks everything is doable like he could be down 20 with six minutes ago or at let me see that's because that's too realistic he could be down 20 with three minutes ago and he thinks if he's hot they're gonna come back and then he's gonna win a game winner and this was one of the first times where I heard him and it was through this conversation where like he's really taking that same look you're taking where it's like what is good enough like do say we are good and say we do get back to the rest and conference finals is that good enough and it's almost like he's having all these thoughts and he just needed somebody to bounce it off of him for some reason he chose me to be a person but it was having that same search and what stuck with me is what he landed on and what I remember him landing on was he felt really good about the level of trust that he had in Joe Cronin at that time so Joe Cronin had not yet been named the permanent general manager he was serving as the intern at this time but as Dane was working through all these scenarios and different people who he thinks are realistic targets for a place to go get and people he wants and what it came down to is there was this this almost like this we knew confidence of I really think we can take the big swing with Joe Wepin helm and because of that because of whatever it is he felt settled on I too felt settled on it he's a super perceptive dude he knows what people are real and when it's fake and what's reasonable and what's not and I know he got to a place where he really believed what was going on in addition to that same trust I believe he has in Joe he has that same thing with Chaunty and he'll tell you if you first tell you he really wants to see Chaunty succeed and he wants to be a part of it so you're right Zach if you look back historically there's been a lot of obstacles and challenges but something just feels a little different and I think he would probably tell you that if he was willing to have that conversation of nah I feel like I'm gonna take this last wing with Joe in charge and we're gonna see what happens and I know Chaunty also believes that although in the past blazers haven't been able to get certain free agents or certain targets Chaunty connects with dudes in a way I haven't seen a lot of head coaches connect like he's only been here for a year in a few weeks now I can I haven't seen another coach that has had so many guys come over during the game just because they want to talk to him same thing happens in the back tunnels by the locker room like players revere him and I know the team is hoping some of that can be helpful when it's time to be in pursuit for somebody so it remains to be seen but I feel a lot more confident about that just based on an exchange with Dame and how I've seen a response hence than I have before that's awesome um by the way but my my favorite thing about the Dame championship ring discourse which I generally don't like for any I just find the whole rings hashtag rings and kind of tiresome and dumb what's pleasant about it with Dame is he doesn't have to prove his clutch credentials this isn't a case where people are like what can he rise to the moment we know he's already showing the guy has to walk off playoff series can't winners like this is more people want to see him win it's more from a place of like this guy deserves a real chance to win when people bring up a little shitty before this night I'm just glad we got like does he the whole does he have to prove it in the under the big stuff like we got that out of the way but let me be clear I think the most likely outcome is that if they pay grant they probably will lock themselves into a team that's good and maybe never gets great maybe gets very good and I could definitely be wrong about that they could pop higher if sharp as a star if diamonds can average 30 like but but I will say that sounds pessimistic it's not because if you look at the west the only certainty about the NBA is we have no idea what the hell is gonna happen in a month a week a year two years three years we know Chris Paul has an expiration date the Clippers have an expiration date the Warriors have an expiration date the nuggets probably are gonna be around for a while a bunch of other teams that rebuilding we don't know what in the hell the timbers are we don't know what in hell the Mavericks are we don't know how long these rebuilds are gonna take the only two teams that I think you can look at we don't know how long the Kings can be do whatever the thing that they're doing with the light in the beam is the only two teams in the West you look at today and are like boy they're on an endless upward trajectory our Memphis into Orleans and you never know when that trajectory is gonna stop so when you think about pointing to think well you know Simon's lillard sharp grand nirch a chance just you know probably tops out of 50 wins maybe that's true maybe that ends up being true maybe that's also not so bad maybe that team's good enough to make a run at some point in three or four years um I will see but I think but to your point I don't think they can just sit on their laurels and be satisfied with like this is the team and I don't know what the what the answer to that is I know that Joe crony will look everywhere exactly that's something and and I know there's there's one there's one dude in Brooklyn who if he reiterates the trade request I pitch the blazers I pitch the blazers as a place that's got to at least make a call and look maybe they don't have the goods because they owe that pick the Chicago it's lottery protected for a bunch of years I gotta figure that out maybe maybe the net say we won't do it without Simon's maybe the conversation never happens maybe it just doesn't work but that's just that's all I'm saying is they gotta look they gotta look at things like that and I think they will they definitely will Joe's not Joe's not sitting back here just trying to make the playoffs every season like if if what he did in his first few weeks as the interim doesn't signal that this dude is serious and he'll make the moves that he feels or maybe even sometimes unpopular or questionable and he does it with a belief no and again the contingencies like he knows all that stuff that I can't get into you talk time for five minutes he'll he'll he'll go from point eight and now this might lead to T and then now we're back at L and you know like he knows it he knows all the stuff and that's one thing again in that conversation with dame that's something that stood out to him as well is how on top of things Joe is so you're right we don't know a lot of this stuff is unknown what I will say though is that group that group you just uh you just listed out like that's a group that could win that group can win some games in a playoffs if dame stays healthy if he's don't know if this cat thing is worrisome the ad thing seems to be in the rear view so let's just like obviously that's the knock on wood for sure for sure and health is is depending for everybody who's trying to get it done but yeah if he stays healthy that's a group that can win they will not shock me to see that same group somehow end up in the conference finals again if that if that happened however that is not how Joe is looking at this thing and so I know that so I'm just like you Zach where I'm waiting each time to see I'm waiting to turn on ESPN watch NBA today listen to you tell me about the report that just came out about the big trade the place it just made like it can happen at any point at any time I know Joe is actively searching so we're just really just enjoying what's going on by now because right now what the team is doing is building some foundational blocks so that no matter who is inserted into the lineup whoever is acquired they're gonna be a part of something that has already been built to a certain level where now you can take a next jump that means something I'll tell you one thing you guys in Portland hiring that hack Mike Schmitz from ESPN but I'm a mistake I like his listening you'll know that I'm joking what a huge mistake real quickly before we go I do since you've seen him up close every single game give me a minute take early returns on shade and sharp what do you see now what do you what kind of player you see I'm growing into like I know if you have a comp you like for him down the line in his prime but like what's your early takeaway on him I always try to be careful when I'm talking about him because I just try to be mindful of setting unreasonable expectations on a guy I just don't know if I can do that with him because any name I say for the most part I could see a path for him to get there things come so easy for him and I'm not saying he doesn't work hard to attain that and get to the level but there's certain shots he just shoots like some of his most impressive shots of me have been misses there have been plays I think back to there was a shot it was in the preseason game the first piece of the game against the Clippers and he did a move where he turned back and it was like kind of a half turn and he faded and he shot it and he missed it but as soon as he shot it I was like I don't even how do you get that to the rim how did he get that to the rim as easily as he did and he has those shots all the time he can shoot the three is that let us in some real he just plays with his calm with his demeanor like all the guys watch watch the blazes they all have this calm demeanor they'll give you 30 not crack a smile not say a word to you they give you 30 do the post game interview go home and do it all over again and she involves right into that line where it's all about business with him and you're right off the ball he does get lost a lot that's been happening a lot more but again what rookie does and I happen to and quite frankly it happens to a lot of veterans as well so that's all stuff that he will get but the natural talent I heard a name I was on somebody else's podcast a few weeks ago and there's a guy here in Portland his name is Brandon he said baby Kobe that's what he called him and when he said it I'm not going to be the person that says no like if we fast forward the clock 15 years from now and in shaden is I'm not even going to say Kobe but but if he's Kobe ish it will not surprise me one bit not one bit at all this he's unreal man he's unreal he's got some natural stuff that other dudes just don't have it he's a real score is that he scores in mid-range I think he could probably post up too we haven't seen that yet but just based on his footwork and how he moves about the about the floor I bet he can post up 15 foot fade away all that stuff so I couldn't be more excited about him and even even with some of his games he has to top out he's over the last week or so it hasn't soured me at all on him like it's just been normal stuff that he'll get back to scoring and doing things the way he was before and I know you said a minute but I'm sorry you can't ask me about no no it's just like I like that you I liked it you announced your caution about setting expectations they're like you know Kobe Kobe man one of the top 15 players of all time that's not crazy I'm just saying I will not I'm not saying he will be Kobe when I'm not saying he's not gonna be Kobe ish well look I'm not willing to say that he won't be here I'll tell you this no matter what he's fun as hell to watch he is a show and he's already been led into the upper room as you noted by Vince Carter you noted on the last part guys already in the upper room because because you disputed that right I just nominated somebody else I don't remember who I nominated but everyone gets to nominate someone for Prince led in the upper room as a based on a dunk in the last week I've yet to I've yet to win Malika cheated and nominated the college dunk they Arkansas that wasn't fair that wasn't fair I'm careful sir show that's not fair but yeah he's in the upper room look and the blazers they're a fun watch and you know there's not a lot of games on Pacific time if you're awake and you want to see a fun game with a smart broadcast Kevin Calabro Lamar heard you guys are awesome it's wonderful to do this I'm hoping to get into one of the games when Portland has Thanksgiving weekend in New York I'm based in Connecticut if so let's say hello grab a post game beer something like that Lamar heard gave him a listen he's a star thank you for your time thank you Zach appreciate it man all right I just wanted to briefly hit on what was one of the more anticipated games of the year Ben Simmons return with the Brooklyn Nets to Philadelphia which turned out to be a total dud for the Nets for the fans who were kind of booing but it wasn't like the scene that we expected and I think frankly it's a scene that's befitting of what has happened to Ben Simmons the player since leaving Philadelphia the fans just said yeah he's worth some bit real but not that much but she only got James Harden who's injured along with Tyree's Maxi and Joellen beat and somehow we still won the game because B-ball Paul was amazing and Tobias Harris played some bully ball and Jake Milton and the Anthony Milton the Milton Milton Milton back court made a bunch of jump shots we'll give him some vitriol but that's that's all he then played fine four straight good game not sure I would do the MJ shrug after making two free throws but I've never been in that kind of atmosphere you want to shrug shrug played well the rest of the team did not play very well and again they lost somehow on the road to Philadelphia without all of those aforementioned six or three best players that said and I can't believe I'm saying this you could you are starting to finally see the team that the Nets kind of envisioned when they at metaphorical gunpoint made this trade for Ben Simmons they have so much shooting on the floor when they put Simmons at the five and you can see it last night he screens he rolls and you just got like Seth Curry on one corner Joe Harris in another corner Durant up top O'Neill up top and you're like oh my god what are we supposed to do we have to help him somewhere because he's gonna dunk Ben can still dunk got to help from somewhere and the Nets got an absolute crap ton of wide open threes they missed most of them they were nine of 32 on not sorry nine of 28 on threes 32 percent in terms of shock quality if you look at the tracking data from our buddies at second spectrum the Nets had a much higher shock quality than Philadelphia they just missed a lot of shots it wasn't totally a maker misgame is we're gonna talk about but you could see the vision Kyrie's even cutting again getting getting moving off the ball he had a beautiful backdoor cut against Memphis the other day you taught want the knob he was playing out of his mind and play last night fed him and like that's how Kyrie was playing in the brief time they had hardened Durant in Kyrie was moving off the ball they were running split actions and you look around like my god what can we guard the team get anyone guard the team and although I like many others have sort of been impatient and critical of the Nets in the last month or two how could you not be it's been complete chaos there for much more than a couple of months I did pick the team to win the championship before last season I thought they were just gonna be unbeatable unstoppable offensively if they can say healthy obviously a bunch of stuff we don't need to rehash happen and here we are we're just starting to see what I thought was gonna be their closing lineup this year which is Kyrie Joe Harris Royce O'Neill Kevin Durant and Ben Simmons and if Joe Harris regains sort of his lateral mobility and we're starting to see that we know the shooting he can defend okay he's kind of stout and you put him Harris Durant Simmons those are four pretty sizey switchable guys that line ups only play 31 minutes together all season just 31 that's nothing has an offensive rating of 125 points per 100 possessions that is blowing the doors off teams all of those are good signs and signs of the team the Nets want to be and yet boy oh boy they're just so small with that lineup and that's the ultimate question is can it can it defend or line ups like it defend well enough and rebound well enough for them to have a chance and last night we saw the answer is still no 20 offensive rebounds fulfill it off here 20 can't you can't win you can't win if the other team is just playing volleyball every time down the Nets are 30th last in defensive rebounding they've been 30th and last in defensive rebounding for most of the season they've been a bottom five defensive rebounding team essentially for the last four seasons constantly it's just an unsolvable problem it doesn't appear to have any solutions you can bring in some sort of stop gap big man like you know you think white Howard's gonna come back and change the that's fine I mean how many minutes is he gonna play um and we saw last night we you know they they targeted Joe Harris on post-up for Tobias here shake Milton was just shooting right over your seft curries your patty mills and by the way when you switch Harris or when you'll out of that lineup and you put curry or mills in alongside Irving it's just too small it's just too small it's just too small against the best teams and patty mills I'm starting to worry that they played the remaining really good basketball out of patty mills in the first half of last season when he was playing like 30 minutes a game and playing extraordinarily well and looking like they had absolutely made the right decision to use their mid-level exception on him instead of Jeff Green to use that salary slot on him instead of Bruce Brown on whom they had bird rights and just like inexplicably showed limited interest in resounding he's exactly what they need he's exactly what the nuggets need how the hell the nuggets lost to the Pistons and the whole that's not I will never know but still um it's just too small and your solution you the biggest hovering question of this team was okay if that was to be too small can we play Simmons and klaxon two non-shooters together to fortify our defense to fortify our rebounding so far the answer has been no although they tried starting at last night and I do I don't mind jockevin saying what the hell let's see let's see if this is gonna have to be something we're gonna do we got to see if we can do it Simmons and klaxon have played 122 minutes so far 105 offensive rating that's really bad 115 defensive rating that's really bad that's minus 10 by math per 100 possessions that's really bad minus 35 points total in those 122 minutes that's really bad 62 percent defensive rebounding in other words opponents with those two guys on the floor are getting 38 percent of their own misses almost 40 percent but it's untenable you can't win like that and so the Simmons klaxon lineups are hurting your offense like you'd expect and not helping your defense or your rebounding like you'd expect or hope in fact it's even worse when they're on the floor and if that's the case this team as a championship contender is pretty much dead on arrival I think again I don't mind them figuring out if that lineup can work it's only been 122 minutes and when you play two non-shooters next to kevin derrant and kyrie Irving and one other a plus plus plus shooter you have leeway to get around the shooting limitations with those guys you can stick both of them in the darker spots clog it up the lane Kevin derrant doesn't carry some feet tall kyrie Irving doesn't carry anybody anytime they're gonna survive in some stretches offensively just because of the star power I was skeptical at the beginning of the season that it's really offensively workable against the best defenses and I'm still skeptical now but look like I said even in a disaster loss last night to an underman but feisty team you can see the outlines of what this team thought it could be at least offensively an unguardable shooting machine that is going to have to outscore you because it's defense limitations and it's just horrendous rebounding limitations we'll see it's early there eight and ten joe harris is barely getting healthy and seft kurry's barely getting healthy and kyrie Irving just got back from his suspension like there's a lot of stuff utah wants an obby is now a big part of this team he just became a big part of the team and he was out again last night like they do they should spend simmons after back surgery and a year plus away from basketball is just finding himself again he's not all the way there let's not get over super not all the way there but there is a world in which this team in the next month clicks it's just it's hard to see the clicking the upside getting to where they thought the upside would be but let's let's see and by and i'll end by just saying this it might just be now or never for the nets after all of this these absences draw this drama after all this nonsense after trade requests and coach firings and coach firings requests and gms firings requests and all of that this is the team now the team is here kyrie's here here is here kurry's here simmons is somewhat here getting more here every day here are your next i don't know how many games let's just read their next games at toronto at indiana home against the blazers home against the magic home against the wizards home against toronto again that's six games in a row against teams that the nets either thought we're definitely better than them or at worst there are peers like on our worst day where peers with toronto on a b plus day for them then home against boston that stuff okay scratch boston let's assume it was after that home against the hornets home against atlanta at indiana at washington at toronto at toronto i don't know how many games i just read like 15 games 13 games then it gets tough gold and state milwaukee cleveland atlanta like this is it this is a stretch right now all those games i mentioned the next before the season when we kind of assumed like they will be this this very talented team on paper that under mifflin that's they'd be favorites in a lot of those games other than the boston game now is the time to show that you're a team that is going to become something now is the time to show that you may have an upside here that's that's that's graspable um and and it also might be now or never because if you get through that stretch at 500 and you're still a couple games under one game over whatever every day this team goes by without hitting its upside upside is a day closer to the darant drama potentially exploding again the whole league is obviously waiting to see if that happens and at some point you just have to be the team at some point you just have to become the team and last night was a demoralizing loss uh on that journey but the journey continues and i just read you those games it's an hour never for the brooklyn that's and uh maybe not whenever anyway and with that let's transition into everyone's favorite uh everyone's favorite most exciting team to talk about the washington wizards on all right the other guard who inked a gigantic long-term extension this one complete with a no trade clause i didn't even know they made those anymore it's an antique the washington wizards and Bradley beal no one's talking about the ten and seven washing wizards oh my god ten and seven they got pink jerseys they got blossoms on the court they're winning games why is nobody talking about them i think i have a pretty good idea why no one's talking about them and frankly i don't even want to talk about them that much i don't even like watching them that much but they are ten and seven is the roof about to cave in mike frata from the athletic and the author of this book look what we can do on youtube now this book right here based out how the nd is three point revolution change everything you knew you thought you knew about basketball i haven't read it yet mike and i have a rule for podcasting i'm not having book offers on until i've read the book i don't want to do the thing where someone's like just read the blurb from page 140 i want to read it so when i read it i'm sure it's amazing because your writing has always been amazing we will do a proper podcast but for now we will talk about your beloved washington wizards is joe house likes to say how are you feeling like is this the year is this the year they get to succeed is this the year they win more than two playoff games for the first time in a while i don't think so but this is fun thank you for allowing me to pull your leg to talk about this team that you don't want to talk about this is very exciting i think i'm a little bit facetious but i don't even i do have to say i don't know if it's 24th in offense i don't know if it's a negative point differential despite their winning record i don't know if it's that they played 11 home games and six road games and they're about to play 13 of 17 on the road it's so i'm just assuming it's all going to come crashing down for all those reasons i just also don't find them like that fundable what are they what is this team about what do they stand for what's their thing i don't i don't i don't know yeah i mean it reflects uh where the organization is ultimately what are they about what does this team stand for so as a fan it's sort of hard to separate what's happening on the court with just that reality of like where is this team going with Bradley Beale maybe the 25th to 30th best player in the league having a no trade clause the only one in the league i believe so it's hard to separate that i will say that i have enjoyed the christess forcing his renaissance and his or renaissance and i think it's been the only way this team i think was ever getting to i don't even want to say where they want to go because i don't know where they want to go but to like kind of oh maybe we can make the six of this year to me was if christess forcing his played like the player we all thought he could be back in 2016 if he was the best player in the team and he's delivered he has been outstanding you know he is he looks a lot better mobility wise you know he is shooting his threes a lot more he's kind of operating as this fun little hub of the offense not not quite nichol yokish without the because of the passing but i think a lot of the same concepts if you pull him out and opens up space to everyone else and most importantly he's defending quite well uh their defense is i believe what seventh now seven seven seven and i don't know if that's going to hold but that's you know you consider the defense of talent and the problems that forcing us has moving laterally that's pretty impressive and so that has been fun for me to watch right i did not expect him to be at this level and he is and it's just enjoyable to see him get his career back on track yeah poor zenka has looked good defensively teams are shooting like low 50s at the rim actually it's not 58 percent at the rim when he's the nearest defender but that's good like for a big end who challenges a lot of shots that's good there's starters montay morris brad biel deni obdia um kusma and kp who hadn't played that much together because of injuries here and deni obdia lost his starting job for a hot second to anthony gill which wasn't great i'm not sure why they did that to be honest because he wasn't shooting he would get the ball and be like oh i'm open no one's guarding me i'm shooting 22 percent from three how about i just do nothing and move the offense along but that lineup is blowing the doors off of people it's plus 41 the rest of the team all other lineups combined are minus i don't know whatever whatever five minus 55 i think it's been great on offense great on defense obdia is a grinder on defense kp you talked about kusma leads the team in defense of rebounding and because by the way they are sixth in defense of rebounding which is great considering they don't look like they should be an incredible rebounding team for think this has never been a great rebounder and you look at the numbers mike now we went through this last year where the defense like got off to a hot start it proved to be there's nothing in the numbers other than the level of competition they played and the amount of home games they played and they've caught some teams with injuries and all that there's nothing really in numbers that suggest this is flooky i don't think did you find anything that says that numbers wise the roof is is going to cave it i mean i don't think they're going to be seventh but if you told me they finished 10th 11th 12th like slightly above average you're like that seems realistic to me yeah i mean i think the only washington scorekeepers are kind of quite kind on mid-range versus floater range versus rim so perhaps the numbers can see a little bit i'd also say that it's not the most scheme versatile team you know they're playing a drop coverage most of the time to protect worsing is they kind of stinking switching on the perimeter i would assume teams will figure that out but yeah i mean i think the most impressive part is they kind of know who they are they have that identity on defense and you know i think one of the other underrated stories is when you staple obdia the hoisin guess it sort of mass a lot of obdia's flaws and it gets obdia trying to and his defensive grit into the game those two guys together are going great and when you separate them out it that hoisin is lineups are kind of average and danny lineups are just terrible without hoisin guess so there's kind of a nice little synergy there that i think helps the defense and mass the offensive flaws that i really like and you combine that with i think it was playing harder defensively i think they get done again the other one of the other things that i think is underrated is that this team has been very good at bouncing the floor they are i think number one in the league in most possessions and half-court defense according to clean the glass they you know that was not something that happened last year the transition defense is much better and so i think they kind of cut out a lot of the stupid stuff that are fouling less and i think those things are sustainable because you know they're always going to be flawed defensively because of the personnel and because of worsing is limitations but if you keep cutting out the dumb stuff and you prevent like kind of easy transition buckets and you balance the floor a little bit better that's something let us tell you talked about a lot where it's all it's kind of like i used to call my gluten hoser facetiously um coach low hanging fruit because the first thing you would do the first thing you did in Milwaukee is going to say okay here's what we're going to do we're not going to foul we're going to get defensive rebounds we're not going to screw up and transition defense and it's all stuff that is so fundamentally essential to just competence and that's all we're shooting for in washington right now competence and if you can just check those simple that are not really that simple but simple boxes you're on your way to being a competent defensive team which is the best way to just give yourself a shot every night and west on seld has plucked the low hanging fruit they are top 10 and opponent free for rate six and rebound and you mentioned the transition defense which frankly i was not aware of i mean now that you say it i watch the games and like okay they seem competent like i think their defense is is pretty good bieles i mean look the contract is the contract i have no idea what his trade value would be if they just made him available now they they sacrifice a good bit of leverage by giving him a no trade clause because he can pick what trade value he can do it's wherever he wants to go but he's playing pretty well 23 and 6 on 51 shooting well from three and two like brand bieles a really good player i just i find them kind of boring to watch stylistically and i think you're right that the boredom is more even because of just a hovering right just what are we doing here so what are we doing here well i don't know what they're doing here i think what they're doing here is to shoot for exactly the type of team that they have this competent team all the time you know meances is always talked about needing to make the play of us and not wanting to tank what is the evidence you're a dc guy you're a lifelong fan like what is the evidence that is there do fans want this like what is the evidence that this is what they should do i don't think fans want this i don't think fans want this um i don't know why he wants to do this i mean the cynical answer is that if you look at mondie menthol as a collection of teams rather than one team it doesn't pay if one of them just totally sucks uh it hurts the whole brand but other than that i don't know why he why he's so insisted on this you know i i think it's pennywise and pound foolish i think frankly a lot of wizards agree you know i think they would just love it if the team kind of restarted like you look at oklahoma mccity and you look at some of these other teams that have just bottomed out i think everybody would love that but for whatever reason maybe it was some of the bad experiences they had trying to bottom under john wall but it is weird because also we else just came in saying here's my ten point plan for rebuilding and rule number one was don't get locked into a team that came in a championship was that true that's basically rule number one did he delete that blog post on no it's take.com like he did with what was my favorite one who was the new big three black and white black jordan cropper and john wall that's just that blog post is gone i hope someone screenshot it and it lives on somewhere it was a teds take teds take that was like a lot of calm backslash 8279 ways or something something like that now the ten point plan is live because he didn't publish it on teds take this was back in the day when he would give interviews to blogs and it was on hogs haven or espionage is washington commander's blog obviously that's where it would be sure right it's a quite ironic um but yeah that's high up in the ten point plan is don't get trapped in a treadmills mediocrity it's number one it's not just high up it is the main thing do you think he remembers this ten point plan i think he remembers this ten point plan yeah next time i get a chance to talk to him i'll ask him about it but yeah it's uh quite funny i mean you also have to remember that this was coming on the backdrop of the capitals rebuilding with alsovecke and then them experiencing so much success and kind of that proof of concept was the wizards this was he just got the team right around gilberry's and the guns which by the way i think it's really interesting that they finally brought gil back the other day for the big three uh reunion i think that was an interesting step you know i don't i don't bug grudge teams for or fans frankly like those teams were fun i love those teams and they were good they didn't in the in like the studio show talking head sense they didn't do anything they didn't win anything but they won like it's hard to be a good nba team for three four five years in a row they were good they pushed up they had like a fun thing with labron and the cabs going on in the playoffs i think you know there's part of me that wants to be like kind of how jcrouder has become like the worst player ever to be the center of an nba trade drama like how many big threes are we gonna celebrate with what is the what are we lowering the bar like to this big three becoming a big three but it's also like it's just like it's it's the joe johnson hawks it's the damey elilor's cj mccollum blazers like those teams are good they did real stuff i know that it's cute to say what did they really accomplish they accomplished a lot and i think fans fans and all those places had fun yeah i think the big thing is personality was you know they had a they had an itch that they scratched a local market with them i just thought it was interesting that given this is the first time gills come back since the gun situation you know they've always honored karan butler they chose the game that karan was there as an assistant coach with the heat jameson is in their front office but gill kind of left us a pariah so i just i was interesting that they came back it was a wonderful tribute to that big three team that they nearly lost to a miami team with like seven players before pulling an after last minute but i do think there's some parallels to how this team is being built i mean i think personally a while he was in particular you look at some of like kuzmo he's in trade rumors for phoenix he's in trade rumors for all his other teams i don't know why he loves dc he's kind of got dc loves him he gets a little bit more of a platform to do some of the stuff beyond the grit stuff like that he did know a like he's developed really nicely as a point maker he's improved as a defensive rebounder the shot looks it's kind of up and down and streaky but it looks good he's got this platform and he's not gonna have anywhere else and i think he really enjoys it he's got his title the city likes him looking down the route 10 15 years from now why isn't kuzmo he looked at like a rump like was this he's like a grump up there a lot of similar arcs and i don't think deal is as you know magnad magnetic as gill and i think corsingis is maybe a different beast than jameson but i do think that there is a sense that this is a franchise that has no like players to call their own throughout their history it's not just that they're bad it's that they were bad with guys over the hill for many years and guys not that they didn't draft and like those chris webber teams to have like one clava cancer still the love dc and dc uh so just to have guys that think we can say our ours i think that was one of the reasons why dill hasn't been traded yet i'll never forget being in staples center whatever year it was they won the what are they in the southeast division i think it was 2017 2018 the year they lost a boss in the 2017 and i think they had win 49 games like it was not an emphatic division win and they i almost expected champagne like they went insane in the locker room port all over each other jumping around and i barely even remember who's in what division and what the divisions are called and it sunk in like this is how bad it's been that's the most wins they've had since 1979 and they've won i think um one playoff series since then is that correct more than maybe 2005 oh yeah they'd be the bulls and they'd be the potatoes and then they won the they won the first round well that's the same year they faced the hawks in the second round in lost in sick yeah so they won for poor playoff series since then four playoff series okay yeah so but yeah i mean i i don't know if like this is sort of a small-time thing or whatever but there is sort of i think just value in like kind of having guys that at least the organization sees it guys that we can call our own we're not gonna win the title blah blah blah um and for me like i don't know for me at least i've been able to set aside like the balazal where they're going because i enjoy watching forcing us i like watching Guzma i like how be like this kind of holding himself back into the team a little bit more his usage rate is down he's defending more his scoring is down and they have this weird thing where he's been out and they play well without him because i just sort of plug court his shirt in and they're fine but i like seeing him like kind of be a part of something in a way where maybe in the last couple years he kind of was above the team because he was so much better than everyone and i like to see this confidence i enjoy watching daddy play i know his offense is a little bit uh what it is but i think you parent with gorseseing is it kind of takes away some of his weaknesses i think i like how he got pushed the tempo i like seeing him develop i don't think this is going to result in a whole lot of super exciting long term like i think there's still a playing team at best but you know it's been i've been able to separate the front office saying from the alcra proct a little more than i have in past years like it was very hard in like 2018 where that team is falling apart or 2019 or even last year as a team is falling apart then maybe the fall will come again here but i mean they're starting to act it's really good really good works like that's a great foundation they can just maybe give what they know gaffer to like rev one defensive rebound but then maybe they'll be okay yeah five thirty eight has been projected at thirty seven wins basketball reference has them right around five hundred so although both those places see some slippage coming they don't see dramatic slippage jump that's a play in team um kuzma let's talk about some of the players quickly kuzma if i had to guess what's going on with kuzma i would say it's his player option for next year and his extension eligibility now um kind of forcing the wizards to ask themselves no i don't know if kyle would even take the hundred and twenty percent extension which is you know do the math it starts at probably sixteen seventeen eighteen or something like that i guess he wouldn't yeah i wouldn't if i were him given the way he's played so maybe it's a non-starter i think that's what's happening there and i would keep an eye on him at the deadline as we as we approach the deadline you mentioned kisbert and denny who's only 21 years old and i love him as a defender and kind of a ball mover on offense everything else is eh so here are four guys gory kisbert denny obdia rui hachamura who i think there were some last minute extension talks with um at numbers that were fair but ended up not not being done in part because it was last minute and uh johnny davis who exists um those are four guys who were picked 15th and higher but no higher than eighth i think for any of them i think hachamura was eighth then he was ninth ninth kisbert was 15th davis was 10th so a range where it's already a crapshoot a range where you could say denny obdia could have been tairi saliburton but he also could have been someone like way worse than tairi saliburton in fact much more likely to be way worse than tairi saliburton that's sad you get all of these bites in that range and yes the expected outcome is what it is but like to be a good team to be on a path to somewhere one out of four you gotta hit like so it's just and there's no there's no science to it like every team is gonna have four-year streaks where they miss even the spurs have waived two of their most recent first round picks before they even got to their third seasons lucas aminogen of course josh remo now um so everybody misses and when you miss like that you're just bad for a while you gotta hit once so go through those four players who i pick pick like what are are any of them are any of them plus long-term starters yeah i'm more optimistic about denny than most people um i know his offense you know comes and goes i think he has some confidence challenges but i think that he there's his plus minus is among the highest on the team and that's even if you separate him out from pausing it so though it's more so what pausing is with there i think that his defense is important i think i like him as a tempo pusher he's kind of like a guy who kind of keeps the flow going a team that can kind of get stuff doing the same things uh needs some that like chaos ejection he's more creative getting to the basket than he has been before uh he's fouling less i just think that's a kind of guy that he's the rat that helps you win and i he's only 21 i think the league is going maybe a little bit more in the direction of even with more shooting fives like gresingus i think the shooting from wings is in some ways maybe a little less important if you pair them up correctly so and if you can do some of the other stuff that he can do yes absolutely yeah so i think he's worth keeping i think kisper has been pretty good since he came back in his ankle injury he can play he can shoot and he moves around without the ball he's a smart he's a smart player also looks great at it in the in the big headband by the way big i'm a big fan fan he looks fantastic in his headband style good job like this yeah he's got to learn to shoot more like i think he needs to get a little bit on that like jj redick like be a little obsessed and getting great shape plan but you're right he's great cutter defensively kind of mess but he tries i think he's worth keeping around for sure um and he still is only in the second year really i would say at least this year he's good at the things he's supposed to be good at mid-range shooting scoring yeah he's at least getting to the rim more but he still can't pass he doesn't pass to anybody this defense is still here i mean it's just three points shooting is predictably kind of falling off a little bit i don't if i were them i would not keep him long term but i don't know he's also had a bit of a weird arc because of what happened last year with uh his mental health and some of those things i think it's probably best that he didn't get that extension to me i would be looking to trade him i don't know what value he has but i would rather keep out of the other not your mara just me personally it will be interesting to see you just mention hachamara as a potential trade candidate that's interesting i mentioned kusma it just will be interesting to see what they do because they've got to do something they can't do nothing or i'll search it they have to i don't know i want to say i have to pick out lane but they have to like explore things that move them in one direction or another and they owe this pick to the nicks this lottery protected pick that has protections for four years on it that has had a very interesting journey by the way they traded it to houston for us which was like let's make the play in and dump john wall movement work they jumped dump john wall made the play in and russells fantastic for them then it went houston oklahoma city oklahoma city new york so now it's in new york and that limits their ability to trade future picks unless they they eliminate the protections which the washing and wizards should not be in the business of eliminating protections non-moderie picks ever ever ever ever ever um but it will be interesting to see if they try to compensate for that by can we snare a first round pick from somebody else using one of these guys in a move that's kind of a slight backward move but replenishes or you know floods are our asset will because they should be on the hunt for bigger moves and that brings me to two questions the matthew moor is trade i think evince their understanding that like we need a point guard we need a real point guard Spencer didn't work out here we moved in for porzingis we need a real point guard so best we can do for now matthew moor is nice backup point guard spot starter is there a point guard out there that you think they should be looking at as a trade candidate hmm well it starts up to say i don't know quick who's on the market like would you i don't think that this is a d-assell team oh god no i don't think i mean i don't know if toronto is looking to trade for advantage we that's a name i had that's that's a name i had on my list and i'm let me be clear i have no idea what toronto is going to do i i was hammering over on toronto i think toronto is good they don't have any other proven point guards on their team unless you count their point forwards which maybe you do but he is extension eligible hasn't gotten an extension it's only natural and i if the wizards haven't brought that up in an internal spitballing session i would be surprised yeah and by the way like i don't think worse is playing with it real this year so even as a stopgap like that hasn't really worked now maybe this jordan good can come in oh i like it he's good uh dalon right let's make white well before he out injured i'm i am like i don't know something about dalon right there's something like why doesn't why don't these teams keep him you never know because he just doesn't shoot enough it's not a good shoot to begin make corner threes i just i like i have a sweet spot for dalon right i always will if i were a gm i would definitely overpaid the long right to be my backup point guard and just so super excited about it you see i mean imagine if it would have had him instead they are in holiday this year you know that would probably help them out a lot uh but yeah so i they might be able to get away with not upgrading the point guard position to be sure they could for sure they could to be the bigger problem as the date of gaffer than just ain't working man and you know you look at your point you look at their cap sheet summer 2024 could be their summer depending on what happens with hachamara and obdia and how much and poor zingus they could have some room tons of room a little bit less room than you'd hope because that gaffer deal is sitting there it's a big contract it's like 14 a year after this year they got a little overzealous when he had a few big games and it's like wow we got this bargain let's lock him up it does not work he just it can't grab a rebound he's out position all the time he's just not that reliable frankly i can't blame west unsale for playing tachkits and overgan which he's done a couple times and to me with poor zingus and his health history along with sort of i think the need to have some semblance of a second unit that spot is a problem so can they get like the one guy i keep thinking about which is not a point guard but it seems a little over duplicative and i think might actually help them a lot is someone like a john collins who could play a backup five who i think would be an interesting fit with poor zingus um someone this is going to be the year someone is going to rescue john collins who is like just regularly the best player going three of four from the field in 32 minutes on a team right now someone is going to trade for him i haven't heard washington as that team yet but i haven't either i'm just that's a good name though that's a good name that's just like lots of teams should be kind of making a little calls on john collins i agree um but yeah someone like who could be a bigger for but can play some five just someone who could prevent daniel gafford from having to play and it's just tough because of that contract it was really bad but to me that's a problem spot because you know poor zingus is played in 16 of the 17 games first of all you can't count on that second of all i think you need a different look like the idea of daniel gafford is very valuable but it just is not working he has made no strides i don't know there's i think there's some questions about his preparation level you know it seems like he's making the same mistakes over and over again he's counted his ass during the short roll uh he's not great even if you kind of get him right at the rim and he's contesting shots it's great but anything else is a problem you can't defend somebody then i think that that's probably been a major problem for the second unit that and will bartons game just to always be able to cliff oh um honestly that trade has not worked out well for them so far and i liked it i liked it for the nuggets immediately i didn't understand why there was any controversy about it from the nuggets perspective i thought it was a clear home run for them not home run but like double off the wall um my my conley do anything for you we'll see it's healthy maniel quickly now that was an interesting one too although aren't the nix kind of looking for a pick as opposed to a player that's what that's that's that's that's what i mean by sort of not quite pick a lane but like put the turn signal on a little bit to see what lane you want to go in um where lando trade call Anthony i know they have like no guards now but like if they can if they get full yeah maybe they'll just go all in on guards who needs guards but maybe that could be their new slogan like point ball ball just just go all in on point ball ball there was a there was a part of you that was wondering should the wizard trade their lottery pick for something like a colanth nier quickly but i was no no no like last year i mean oh okay it's it's an interesting discussion because you want to say no because it just feels like this same wizard's just like tiny incremental move but at least it's for a younger player exactly yeah i'll tell you this before we go they're definitely watching brooklyn and hoping for the implosion and not for kyrieure i was gonna say i'm not knowing kyrieure i think i know who you're talking about it for the other guy who's from the area we're really unfortunately i don't know we're really gonna do this again i don't know that they have the assets to get it done with that pick already hanging out the door going to the nicks and what we said about their prospects but they're they like they like everyone else in the league is just just keeping an eye on it that's all because they i can't believe they're gonna try to do that again well i don't know if they're going to but i mean i would i mean i would i would ask what else are we doing i would ask i'm just you don't don't get don't get my notes up here like there's just that's okay let's go back to being hopeless the wizards are a nice team they play competent basketball they're not the most exciting watch in the league they need to keep keep these pink jerseys forever and ever and ever they're amazing very nice and i'm not a i'm not a new jersey fan and i like that well they're all i don't like them i don't like that we have too many then and i like them um yeah i don't know i mean shoot if you ask me like just they should be tanking for vick but you know i was gonna bring that up earlier like i don't know many wizards fans i don't think anybody outside of like a 20 mile vicinity of whatever the Verizon center is called it what is it called now this is the right it's not the right it's not the right it's the still the Verizon center capital okay the phone booth i'll always call it the phone booth i don't know that anyone knows a lot of wizards fans but the ones i know as competent as this team is would much rather be playing with tankathon calm every day this season than what's happening now but look can only do what you can do within the parameters set by the people who are running your organization and under those parameters this team is perfectly watchable it's like it's like a it's a turkey sandwich of an NBA team not that exciting got to put a lot of condiments on it to make it super edible gets the job done in a pinch mike from the athletic formally of SB Nation formally of bullets forever.com author of this book which you should all buy right here it's spaced out spaced out Steph Curry's on the cover and the Kings too which Kings things have noted many kings the kings are on the cover and maybe the wizards should read this and start shooting more threes um you know mike preda thank you for your time go whiz see you around the block thanks for having me Zach