Diane it's 848 p.m. Welcome to another episode of Twin Peaks Peaks. This week we're gonna be talking about Laura's Secret Diary which is the fourth episode of season two. You saw that I was hunched down over the mixing board and then you didn't continue talking?
No, because I always forget to let us introduce ourselves so I was like trying to be good about that. Oh okay that's actually I actually like that reason a lot. I'm sorry I'm sorry for for lashing out there at the start of the show. Which also in honor of that I am Matthew Olson.
I'm Ashley. Can't say it right. Can we start this whole thing over? No.
I'm wondering if we should start this whole thing over. You basically just whispered your name and then stopped at the EH in in Brant. My flustered co-host is named Ashley Brant. We can start it over if you want to.
No, it's fine. Okay. Are you prepared to talk about this episode? Am I ever but really like nothing happens this episode and we are gonna be skipping over Revival News because there was some big news this week that has been reported but not confirmed by the production so we won't be covering that but I'm assuming everyone is seen it by now.
Probably I mean probably everyone who's listening to this podcast. Yeah there's a good chance with the exception of our two moms. Shout out to both cabbies. Hey you're listening to this my mom Mike my Kathy I don't know pet the dog and say it's from me I don't know anyway so no Revival News you apparently don't think that a lot happens in this episode so we got we got that going on.
Yep this is gonna be just a rousing episode. Let's just leap right in then. I'm ready. Alright let's talk about MC wins.
Give me your thoughts. The MC wins plotline takes up so much time and I just don't care about it at all. This just keeps reminding me of that episode of SpongeBob where the health inspector comes. That's all that plotline reminds me of.
I don't remember how that episode of SpongeBob went. The health inspector is coming and they like keep asking these people who they think are the health inspector. Okay and then they like kill the health inspector. Okay yeah I think I was thinking the episode where the guy says he didn't get pickled on his Krabby Patty and SpongeBob has a depressive meltdown.
I was not thinking of that one and I don't think I remember that one. It's pretty good. This is a SpongeBob podcast. Check it out.
Okay but this takes up so much time because everyone in town wants a good review from this mysterious food and travel reviewer. Not everyone. The Double R does and the Great Northern does and what other locations are there in this town? Answer none.
I mean yeah maybe if the Roadhouse was in on it I would agree but we get it we get a scene a walk-and-talk like literally Ben Horan says let's have a walk-and-talk for something just like wow jumping the gun there a little bit on Aaron Sorkin but Ben's just like oh cool there's this food reviewer that's very good information Louie and we also basically what the spotlight is is way too much screen time for Hank but a lot of screen time for this new character Louie who works at the Great Northern and she's like really tight with Norma I guess and like very eager to be in Ben Horan's good graces yes which I you know I don't know if she's aware that isn't like the greatest place to be but anyway can we can we talk about how Louie is probably the first non-white actor or actress to have had more than like aside from Jun Shen to have more than like online in the show yeah I mean there's Hawk as well but he really gets he well he gets a line at a time to like did you realize that his his first name is Tommy oh I didn't know that do you get the pun yes that's terrible yeah maybe there's a part of me that wants to forget Hawk Hawk has great moments that are yet to come in the show I feel and I also feel like the actor like is really serving that performance and like making making his performance a lot better than the material given to him yeah but oh my god it's just a little bit to on the nose but Louie just gets to be this this super enthusiastic person at the Great Northern so 0.1 towards Jun Peaks we're not being totally white on the subject of race in this episode though it doesn't stop there because we get Mr. Tajimura interacting with Louie I guess since we're a podcast that doesn't spoil future episodes we can't talk too much about this but we can say that Mr. Tajimura already is a totally racist depiction yep it does not take much attack of work to figure that out that is a white person in a suit in makeup in its very insensitive that is yellow face yep it is not at all justifiable so if we're yeah if there's one thing that dams this empty wind spot line from the outset it's that it's used to introduce Mr. Tajimura yep and I was noticing while I was writing down notes you said you don't have any notes of this episode but I did think of it's interesting that we get this like introduction to this terrible caricature this episode at the same time as we have a like private scene between Josie and the man who's come from Hong Kong to enforce her agreement with Mr.
Eckert where Josie pretty much drops the the I'm not that great English act right because Josie is from Hong Kong and Josie speaks in a very like Hong Kong you know almost British English accent yep and I like I really wonder then both about like as a character choice like as as Josie's choice in her role in Twin Peaks and her like ulterior motives were being there in terms of even with you know with literally everybody Ben Horn anybody she's having like secret back or backroom dealings with to adopt this affectation but also then as a writing decision to write a character who comes from Hong Kong but then is masquerading under not like they are they are calling some of the fact that like actually there's a very good chance Josie would be an excellent English speaker but then that they've written this character that decides to masquerate is not speaking well or speaking fluently eloquently so forth I wonder if any of this is eluded to in this in the secret diaries of Laura because I think that in there it touches on Josie's English instruction but like that's also like gosh he keeps up like a long con of like getting instructed by Laura yeah I mean it seems more like a retroactive like we didn't really understand what Hong Kong was that's rather than a real long like long con writing decision because I is everything about it that gives you that particular sense like they did have of course like a four month break where conceivably someone chose to have to be like why is it that Josie like doesn't speak great English when you said that she's from them like someone just like it's read the face like oh shit we did a bad like is there any particular thing that tips you off of that or just assumption that because it shows so white it probably spucked it up at the outset I mean that assumption but there's also like no foreshadowing for this supposed like big reveal that like kind of matters a lot of her character do you think the big reveal comes this episode I'm just talking about her English I'm talking about that as well but I'm saying like is this the is like like Josie's Josie's who cannot speak English now Matthew Wilson her like passes alluded to in season one at least like her other reasons for being in Twin Peaks yeah but they don't tie that in with like this this performance she's giving where she can't speak English and that would be the appropriate time to do that you think that this is a planned thing it would have been natural to reveal this con earlier yeah absolutely like why why wouldn't you like I assume in her private moments and in her moments where she's kind of dealing with this other side of her life she wouldn't go through the trouble of keeping up this accent yeah that she's affected I guess it's supposed to be I mean now now the the squeezes being put on Josie because of the whole meal fire thing but I think I think I'm in agreement that yeah maybe this you know is an artifact then at the season two of that break and someone stepping in and being like no though like let me educate you on the history of Hong Kong thank you very much so I think we only have to talk about like boring white people though for the rest of this episode yeah well do you even want to talk about Truman and Josie no that awkward scene no my only note on Josie actually is Josie return this is all caps Josie returning from Seattle equals same with the shopping bags that's so aspirational that was your observation yeah I really connected with that moment actually I'm trying to pull weight here and like you don't try to like carry on you know a conversation about race which like I'm clearly like only as equipped as a you know white male candy but like oh my gosh just just just like certainly to her on a human level and on a femme level fair but like I'm dying out here I need some of that some of that deep like insightful like observation I just I really think there's like not a lot going on in this episode that I particularly care about it's a lot of plots moving forward in a way that I find to be like pre pre-blend okay maybe this maybe this will let your fire let's talk about the very opening of this episode that is a note that I have hi yes I knew it I drew you out of your shell you're ready to talk about film and stuff now finally no I really like the opening scene I like that we got to see some like real camera work and some real like cinematography muscles being flexed because you really don't always see that on TV and I think that it's pretty easy in TV to say like this is long form an action based so we don't need to like you know get into the the nitty gritty of cinematic techniques but yeah I was glad to see that and I thought Ray Wise gave an incredible performance in the opening scene I agree 100% Ray Wise killing it can we just like in addition to praise and cinematography praise the fact that to get that shot where they do a spiral out of the like tile they had to build a giant version of that hole to thread the camera through yeah that's super cool that's super dope it also reminds me of one of the opening scenes of Fight Club one of the opening scenes of fight club one of the early scenes okay I was about to say like it's part of Fight Club that there's like multiple versions of this movie is it like clue no different theaters see different versions of Fight Club where like the twist wasn't the same what if that was the case though what if I was like like speculation podcast I was looking at the the list of versions of Blade Runner Wikipedia article today there are more than I realize there was they're like there's a lot five or six right five or six big ones five or six big ones and like several working versions that were screened at specific theaters that have scenes that were not released in any of the subsequent versions yeah cuz really Scott is not David Lynch and he doesn't know when to let a good project be done anyway could I stop with the director's cut it's all insane really it's all I'm saying you look nicer in the final cut but you need to go that far coming up okay coming up an episode of the I've seen that about the various cuts of Blade Runner well save your book plugs for other podcasts for the end of the episode but also super cool yeah if I still had my HD DVDs of Blade Runner and an HD DVD player on which you can watch them you could use it for that show anyway back to Twinties we just someone dies this episode do you remember who Jesus I got you who are you thinking I got you to just like be into it for like five minutes and now it's gone baddest that's good shot right right right right right and John Renau that shoots him John Renau just like comes in and like fuck shit up he's like you thought the other you thought the other Renau brothers were bad you thought they ran shit I run shit I am the number one Renau brother also I sound hilarious my accent is if not all over the place just not so great it's not even like a fake French accent like that it is something distinctly different distinctly just kind of I laugh whenever he puts this but I think the scene where Audrey is witness to baddest death I think it's at least well done enough to really drive home that the stakes for Audrey is as weird and forced in and contrived as that situation is are pretty real like well but I think as John Renau is like pretty invested in making sure that she lives and John Renau at this point is really in control of the situation right I don't think that it means that Audrey is in like immediate physical art I just mean that like I think it does a good job of driving home that yes while this guy is maybe like right on the right on the edge of being this like comic like French Canadian mobster it's not played to corny when he just shoots this guy he is a dangerous man and he has illustrated that effectively now and he founds like just like the worst accent I wonder it's shame on both of us are not knowing who plays John Renau but if he's actually French Canadian if that's actually how he sounds I'm gonna feel real hundred percent not I'm gonna guarantee that right now okay don't look it up on your phone though I need you I need you here for this right what is what is Cooper doing during this episode he gets called into Ben Horn's office because Ben Horn is like you and Audrey have a special relationship and John Renau wants you to deliver her ransom money what else is he doing he recruits a book house boy yeah Harry's like I'll send my best one and then he shows up which is a heartwarming moment yes also I failed to see how Cooper was surprised by that though like who like he knows who the book house boys are does he think like big ad is gonna accompany him on this mission big ad cannot keep a cover he cannot keep a cover he's probably not that good shot I'm guessing that was good as Harry the town sheriff honestly maybe Hawk would have been a better choice well yeah could have maybe like given Hawk some character space to the less of a caricature yeah but you know that's that's still it's still to come I like Hawk but Hawk right now is more background than Andy by a mile if Andy was a book house boy Andy would have been more likely like not Harry option for this for this plot thread but of course it's Harry's your boy he might he may come do this after having sex with Josie just like I'm gonna do this real quick and then we're gonna like maybe like here what the judge has to say about Leland and then we're gonna go do this late night mission like dude just like maybe to stay at the office the whole time like you're kind of you're kind of like you're already wasting some gas money honestly honestly well it's actually probably taxpayers money so true it's a sheriff he can do he wants yeah can we discuss the little detail at the at the roadhouse that Cooper has taken the bar peanuts out of the bowl and kind of yes made some kind of triangle in his boredom yeah because the triangles aren't richly symbolic in the show at all no not at all but also it's like what is he doing why not why not just like I don't know read a book or like make another tape for Diane or something like do you think he sends Diane like little little crafty gifts I don't think so I did pick up I don't know I'm not gonna speculate this I will say that I did pick up a tidbit out of out of the tapes to Diane or what I don't know exactly what they were sold as but the the both of the transcripts and the audio version that kind of like recorded of these tapes that you could pick up at around the time of the season is that I guess there's a detail where Cooper doesn't send every tape he records to Diane but he also likes the thought of addressing them all to Diane like this apparently like interesting you know outside of the TV show so you know Canada city take it as you will but this idea that Cooper like does take pleasure in just like recording these tapes like there's like a function to them but that he takes pleasure and then like addressing them all to Diane which when we were like speculating like several episodes back like talking about Diane does Diane exist like what's the deal what does this reveal about character that would be interesting like if Diane's just this person who every once in a while like actually here's from Cooper but Cooper's just like here's another message like a diary yeah but that like to me that that says that he's a deeply lonely person who is not okay with like being alone that is what I was thinking is the implication there and I kind of like that it makes him feel more human and less like a like a character in the TV show it makes also some sense as to why you would be so ecstatic to like be in this town where he seems to have found some people he really relates to so yeah also on the subject of Cooper you're asking what he's doing this episode he's using some kind of archaic form of like personal data assistant like he's like using a little people people like calculator size like pocket yes a little people people like it literally makes beeps and boots while he's typing on it this is the scene where Andy comes out with his sperm samples and you're right and Cooper the whole time is tapping away on this like well I don't know little palm pilot except they didn't even have those in 1990 little beeper was it the apple Newton or something like there's like there are like earlier than the palm pilot versions of these little handheld assistance but it's weird I think this is maybe the only time Cooper is seen using it yeah like ever and just stuck out the sore thumb during that scene during a scene which the comic trajectory of his oh no Andy's sperm is underneath the chair like I was just distracted from that whole going on by people oh my god glad you noted that yeah so Lucy and anti-development there aren't really any Lucy does tell Cooper what's up yes she does not tell him how she's pregnant which I think like it's her body she can say whatever she wants about it but I feel like if she wants to get some real-ass advice might be crucial to disclose yes I don't know that she wants to realize that I so because Cooper is the one who brings up yeah I don't I don't think she wants nice necessarily and then Dick Tremaine is a little asshole and he shows up at the sheriff's office and is like here's $600 in abortion yes I'm glad that you at least kind of want to bring that I want to talk about it because what the fuck like this is why like anybody anybody's like oh Dick Tremaine what a great character like no in his second appearance he's like here you told me you're pregnant I know how to solve this without discussing whether or not this is the kind of thing you want at all I'll scrape together $650 and just give it to you okay not to mention giving a woman money for an abortion and not offering to accompany her to the clinic or like take her home make sure she's okay is a cold-ass move it's ten kinds of fucked up and Dick Tremaine is awful he's a bad man and if you take pleasure in watching a almost just like almost unbelievably like forced comic character who is also an asshole if that's like your definition like a cool quirky fun character then we're not friends a lot of like comedic characters on network TV though fair fair but then Dick Tremaine doesn't belong in Twin Peaks yeah no no I'm agreeing but like is he kind of is he kind of like Neil Patrick Harris character on how I met your mother are you asking me because I'm a how I met your mother expert because I'm not I literally have never seen that show and I was hoping you had maybe slightly more information I've seen some episodes of it but I don't think Barney Stinson right like I don't think that that's the kind of show that would like have him have that character do something so arch as show up with like well not not that but I'm saying like the general characterization of like I'm an asshole like I don't care and like that's supposed to be my funny thing no because he's given like I can't say this I've seen enough that showed another thing like try to give all the characters some pathos like it's one of those sitcoms it like gets real like sappy like on the reg so like yeah he's just like he's got his whole code and he's like a ladies man whatever but like his life is very hollow and everybody especially him knows it because he's like just sleeping around whereas Dick Tremaine is just awful he's just there to complicate the situation and be terrible but also like funny and he's not funny so he's just terrible he's also another character that I feel like don't doesn't exist off screen uh-huh oh totally like when he's not off screen he's like writing his lines for when he talks to Lucy he has no other life he doesn't even work at Horn's department store I bet in the men's right apartment I bet that's all a lie yeah but all of this being said anyone listening should donate to Planned Parenthood yes because the house voted to defend them for a year this is the real-life new segment of the show but no no like being really real like Planned Parenthood is an incredibly important resource for a lot of women for a lot of queer folks for a lot of people of all genders and all types who go there for regular health care and also for abortions which are critical medical procedures for those who choose to have them yes emphasis also on the whole choosing thing because here in this episode we have this clear list tradition of a man like carelessly trying to choose for someone else the show I don't think takes a stance on abortion in this moment like Lucy is fucking upset but it's not because like we get any sense of like what her actual thoughts are she's clear upset that this fucking asshole just tried to choose for her also like the most cow's possible way but just like the choice was not hers under dick remains mine fuck that but don't need to play in parenthood and like yeah support choice Jesus Christ yeah the government won't this is a bad world we live in yeah like I I to be like completely real I get like 80% of my medical care from Planned Parenthood because they give me a wellness check once a year and that's the only time I go to the doctor and I really appreciate that they can do that for me yeah that's super super important like have you I just signed up for health care for the first time and that's a fucking labyrinth but I know that if I just like have a little bit out of pocket I can go to Planned Parenthood and like get most of my shit taken care of like most of the shit that I need to know like anything that I would actually not just like WebMD and then realize what's just freaking out about for no reason I could go into a Planned Parenthood and if they couldn't do it they could point in the right direction that's absolutely a place that should keep its doors open yeah and Planned Parenthood really tries to make it easy for everyone who is trying to access their services and I can say that because I also work in a field where I deal with medical providers from time to time and that is not the case with most facilities at all oh my god one time I had this like seriously bad eye flutter that I thought like just like it was also a company by like these enist bell so I was like okay and I went to the college health center and the college health center put me in a taxi to take me to the local hospital where they just like ran this like ultrasound device over my eyeball and said everything's fine and then I got charged so much money after health care kicked in like it's just ridiculous yeah I didn't know any of that was gonna happen I didn't really feel like I had any control over it so anything you can do to put that control back in the hands of people especially people in need like do that don't shut that shit down and on that note I'm trying to segue here where we can get back to talk about the show but we really can't it's not important yeah no peaks less so it's like a lot but but don't need to Planned Parenthood and like retweet stuff about donating so more people can donate it's really important don't need to Planned Parenthood and say in your donation that they should check out to in peak speaks if they like to show it to in peaks and then we'll get some dope people who are involved with Planned Parenthood listen to our podcast that's like exactly the target audience for our show that's what we wanted all along but on the on the real though I really wish that we saw more abortions on TV because I feel like anytime a woman is pregnant on TV and she doesn't want to keep you know the pregnancy it's always like oh well she's gonna you know have an adoption she's gonna adopt it out and that's really that's like not everyone's choice and that's really hard on a woman's body it's yeah I can think of at least one show but let's not get out of spoiling other shows what are you thinking of I will tell you after the podcast I bet you could guess but let's not do it on the show for the sake of people who might watch that show and maintain surprise I know I said just last week's lawyers are no big but okay anyway I can think of you want to show probably more if I sat here where yeah that's exactly a trajectory is that like abortion is floated as a possibility and then through some kind of like even if it requires bending over backwards in the plot just like oh no we're gonna you know shake our heads and pretend like we never thought about that and that's like really really really bad because the more you can depict something that is you know that happens and that's normal and that should be destigmatized the more you can do that the further goes towards destigmatizing that thing and then you don't have you know situations where the government steps in and says nope to an entire organization that does that and more like lots more on the basis of one thing like television has like there's probably dozens if not hundreds of examples you can bring to light about television as a widespread medium going a long way to increase you know acceptance of various things in well let's not I mean you can you can say that's attenuously but you can just like representation is important in lots of different ways representation is important but I don't think that TV consistently pushes the envelope in a meaningful or engaging way I think that there's a lot of really surface-level representation that ultimately doesn't amount to much like if you look at the representation of queer people and trans people on TV you see a lot of characters that self-identifies gay and you don't see same gender intimacy it's still like this gross thing that you know you have to just to cut the scene when that starts happening and I think that we see that in a lot of these situations where shows are being lauded for having this high degree of representation and being progressive whereas it's just a gesture it's a thing yeah so to temper what I'm saying is that like also as much as we can praise it there's like a lot that like needs to be done in essence like there's like yeah there's lots of surface-level things I agree 100% like there's yeah it's man for my birthday this year I received the new episode of new season the first episode of the new season of Doctor Who and talk about a show that has had trouble representing things for its long 50-plus year run and they were like little like off-hand gestures towards like a more open interpretation of how gender works in that show that were played as jokes and it's like you fucking like I'm not gonna like give them points for for opening up the possibility just to play it off as a joke because it's the same as not opening up possibly at all that's a huge pet pee for me like the we've talked about this a couple years ago but the fourth season of Arrested Development and there's a whole plot line there that can be read as like straight men don't understand friendship and platonic intimacy or it can be read as like two people like discovering that they have same gender affection for each other and that's how I prefer to read it because otherwise the punchline is what being gay yeah which I mean let's be very high so that's been the punchline for like a lot of a lot of going on the rest of development yep so that's and that's a TV show I still love and it fucks up so so bad so yeah I think you know okay everything I was saying about TV being progressive at the right time the right way like yeah but I'm pretty that with what actually saying which is that like oh my god though if you actually think about it even shows that do a good job half the time well hundred percent of the time could be doing so much better yeah and we're not saying that is like like oh why is this perfect why isn't it having more of an effect and more of just like there are like very clear decisions to to choke back on some of that stuff or to play it off for laughs and maybe if someone picks up on that as progressive afterwards you pat yourself on the back but really that was never your intent in the first place and that's all no way no that's not good yeah and I think it's it's easy to see someone who self-identifies as gay or is considering having an abortion and doesn't or whatever but I think it's really different to see someone in a same gender relationship like dealing with those kinds of outward facing and inward facing issues of identification and identity politics and similarly like seeing someone go through the process of getting an abortion and being in the room when that happens having not every story the Juno essentially like there's a variety of experiences and in you are narrowing it down to the certain subset and then even then you're doing well it's ultimately like very moralizing oh yeah totally you're being very moralizing and you're doing it you know even then if you restrict your narrow subset of experience who knows how good of a job you are doing actually representing even that so you think really I mean I think this is where we can talk about it for Twin Peaks though like without spoiling much this is this spotlight like Lucy would need a full nine months to be pregnant and we only have the rest of season two to go yep so just saying let's talk about Twin Peaks it's a television show it was on 1989 1990 I was on in 1990 and 1991 okay so it started filming in 89 here in 1991 set 89 I'm already set in 89 okay yeah okay you know what we are missing what our favorite people oh god it just like okay again I love I love fake Dustin Hoffman as Harold Smith what a great dude but also some like that's you remember his name no Lenny von Dolan thank you there we go they're like having that dinner and they're drinking white wine this is Donna and fake Justin Hoffman his name's Harold Smith okay whatever all right anyway and he's all like I have Laura's diary here she like left it in case something happened to her I've read all of it and then he's like shall I read from Laura's diary which a weird thing to do that is something you do alone and feel weird about you don't that's not romantic at all and then also this dude has read the diary a bunch of times apparently and he chooses to read a really awkward section that talks about Donna in a weird way he goes on for so so so long down this passage when after like the second sentence it's really clear that baby this is not a thing that she wants to or needs to hear and he just keeps reading it and I'm just sitting there thinking Harold Harold context context views reads a body language no no Harold like even in the text though like I mean both no one wants this but Harold Harold Harold Harold did you take the SAT did you take the reading portion where you read the thing and then you're expected to like answer so because here's what that passage you read out of Laura's diary would be the question the question with four bubbles after it would be should this passage be read aloud to Donna considering it drags Donna through the dirt and just like is super shitty about her and then all four bubbles would say no that would be the SAT question about Laura's diary right there and you fucked it off so bad so bad also why why was he so eager to just like pour over this girl's secret diary why did he read it multiple times why does he want to keep it so badly because I understand he's a lonely dude but this is a creepy thing it's a creepy thing but they're setting it up as his creepy thing because he's he collects people's stories that is his you know I think more so than him being a shut in or a bot nest or whatever that is his like twin pixie quirk is that he is you know in terms of like his log is that he is the person who has this collection to collect people's life stories and that is related to his his fear of going outside and so forth but that's a big thing yeah that to me like that as a characteristic screams out like self insertion for like the author the creative person metacommentary about storytelling I don't know what you're saying are you trying to compare me to Harold are you comparing yourself to Harold David what had you already left for wild at heart at this point I don't know did I this mark frost was this his doing just I mean I don't want to say blame on mark if you don't know it was me but other people might say that there's no way they're too good of bros to actually do that to yeah each other I can't even make that bit sand that's not backing down um yeah do I have gosh well I really like went through all my notes like I think nope I didn't I didn't even touch on what is my favorite note for this episode what is your favorite note what the fuck is like going on such that the great northern is always popping there are I told it was good you just blew out the audience so bad by laughing so hard because it's true when there aren't investors like for ghost wooden town sorry the place is always fucking packed there are always events being held in Twin Peaks which is in a super remote super like inconvenient part of Washington state of America and yet this week it's the lumber queen semi-finals there's just like there's always shit going down and it's always at the great northern and I get why it's beautiful it's big it's the only like a combination that's not a motel presumably in town but holy shit only now is it on me like they got the barbershop quartet that one episode and now the lumber queens and I'm just like who put this place on the map what put this place on the map what is it is a logging town where everybody who knows anything is convinced that the woods are evil like this is not a this is not a destination spot what is your fan theory about the great northern they just have a really really really good like sales or like booking team like they probably like have people who go out to like scenic hotels with waterfalls conventions and then convince people with appropriately woodsy themed or like quaint events to post in Twin Peaks that's my that's my theory I buy that I mean you saw how hard Louie was working to like you know Louie is hustling Louie is the reason that all of those people are always there Louie is probably Louie is probably the point girl for the lumber queen competition she is probably the contact at the great northern for that it's certainly not the lady at the desk in the pilot who has coffee spilled on our desk by Audrey truly Audrey's running around a circle runner but Louie Louie doesn't have time for Audrey shit Louie is getting work done all the time booking those booking those claim woodsy conventions Louie's gonna be running the great northern season three I'm calling it prediction is Lou or any favorite character Louie might be you listeners you decide I do it I do feel like she's a little out of place because she's so happy and easy to read emotionally she's so yeah she's so easy to read emotionally when everybody who's happy in this town like immediately has a smile after sorry immediately has to like show us like frown afterwards to show that they're conflicted on the inside yep well you know who else is happy this episode fucking Hank I don't even want to talk about Hank I really got to talk about Hank though he has an awful fucking like empty who oh my god empty once like why does he care about the diner so much because he's trying to impress Norma but like trying to get a good graces the way to impress Norma it's also bad because he's like I'm gonna get some tablecloths and forced this gross gross human being known as toad into the kitchen where he's certainly not gonna be good I guess now's a good time is ending to talk about the damn fine food segment for this week are we doing that now I guess we have to do it is so like when do you want it in the next 30 minutes because it's gonna happen we usually do it at the end I don't know why you're doing this because what how much episode do we have left to discuss I have some use that notes yeah but let's just do it before I use that okay because we're talking about the double R let's talk about cheeseburger french fries and Coke that's the food for this week that's a food from this episode ordered at the double R by the prosecutor yep for Leela's case yeah so we went to well you picked up some burger bill on the way here burger bill is a local like Portland area fast food chain I don't even know if it extends that far outside of the you know the north east no north western portion of Oregon so yeah it's available in more places I don't know about it it's like our our less hyped up version of in and out I guess but honestly like Shake Shack and in and out have nothing on burger bill whoa oh man we are gonna get some heat on this one this is gonna be less contentious thing we said ever you just lay this smack down on in and out Shake Shack holy shit I burger bill is just better they have like some rotating sides like they got onion rings ring part of the year they've waffle fries ring part of the year they've green beans right now for some reason that's a new thing I don't know how I feel about it they're gonna spare guess they always got rosemary fries waffle fries they got you know what we're gonna be we're gonna be joined together in this Ashley come out of Twitter if you're listening to this podcast I don't care if you work with a man or not I mean we appreciate everything you do but if you think in and out is better or is like the best shit and you haven't tried burger bill I reckon you tried but if you have tried burger bill and you still think that get at us we will we will fight this on Twitter all the way all the way my mom actually mom if you're listening and you think otherwise considered over we're not family anymore because it's this important also the food is damn fine if you couldn't guess fucking great but thank you for your support A because I know that was a controversial statement controversial stance also my mom is obsessed with burger bill I will like when my mom visits I will like meet up with her and be like oh do you want to go to dinner like this nice vegan restaurant and she'll be like oh you know I just have a burger bill nice very nice you know what I mean I mean I want to give my mom some time to respond but in the eventuality as she either doesn't try a burger bill or tries it and doesn't like it now I have a new Cathy it is a backup so really gone off the rails this one in such a short span of time really like are we are we gonna hit an hour is like the key question I kind of don't want to you know what he's like oh nothing happened is that it's just keep this short and snappy that's what I telling you my only other like real real episode note is just like the judge and like I don't have any like particular feelings he's kind of a fun dude kind of just another character about the town he you know runs around in a way to go you know holding court because pretty world area no centralist courthouse yeah I mean I think it's a I think it's certainly a realistic situation for you know who would serve as the judge for Twin Peaks it's got his legal assistant law clerk who like turns heads like she's cute that's I don't know he's a tidbit yeah some information I guess there's a prosecutor is just like this rather large cowboy okay like cool yeah with very simple taste and I respect that he's not and you know what he's there and he's not gonna like buy into that like pie bullshit he's he's heard all before he knows what he wants he knows what he wants he's not gonna get up sold on some shit he's not gonna have Hank be like oh we go specials he's just like I know what I want in series man meanwhile Maddie and Donna forget what Donna's just trying to drag Maddie back in it Maddie's like I guess and I just like last week Maddie you were so upset you were so upset about this about like people just like dragging you in and like thinking you're Lauren so forth maybe your tune has changed now that the person who was comforting that time has been accused of murder maybe you're just kind of like not know what to do with yourself and like okay I'll help Donna out again but don't Donna sucks Donna sucks she's gonna bring you down the other thing that I think is like kind of interesting about like the women who surround Laura and I'm really specifically thinking about both Maddie and Donna right now is there's this kind of sub-genre of films about women and about female friendship that's been described as persona swap and I just read this term in an article that was kind of reviewing Queen of Earth which is this new film featuring Elizabeth Moss doing this like really great performance and the film centers around these two women going to a cabin together and their childhood friends who kind of realize they hate each other while they're there but the persona swap is kind of about women and their kind of emotional burdens being swapped as he would and that being like a source of friction or source of bonding and I think that's the genre of female friendship that we're seeing surrounding Laura and I don't know if it's that her problems are too big for her to handle and specifically in death they seem to consume the people around her I mean they totally do yeah they totally do that's interesting I want to look more into that persona swap yeah definitely definitely seems relevant here and maybe we'll have more say on that in the coming weeks who knows but I think we're done talking about the going on of the episode and everything else we touched on prior to this except that Hank will get his due one last time because he gets his ass handed to him that's a good part about so much Hank this episode is that two minutes of that is spent on him just getting fucked up and it's actually like you know interesting to see Twin Peaks do like a like a brawl scene like a yeah like a like a like a hand-to-hand fight like it's not even close like he just gets it's not like a close fight at all don't get me wrong he gets his ass kicked but like it's choreographed in the diner and all this stuff like that's kind of cool that's different that's chill the only thing I was gonna say is just going back to the judge and his scene in the conference room with Lee Landen talking about bail that's just like another nice moment for Ray Wise where he's really emoting and they have that nice moment where you know the judge is like Leo or we land I'm sorry to see you like this in this position yeah yeah we went in attorney yep and it's a it's actually a really great speech and maybe you know after they're both in late to rest they will see each other in Valhalla who what what you're gonna plus that I don't know about how is that normal is everybody in Twin Peaks think that they're going to go to Valhalla when they die is that something we haven't filled in on yet I don't know is there an uptick in the sales of silver spray paint okay this is not your theory road podcast actually save it for your theory road podcast which is like actually a thing that I know you're gonna do now like you're gonna do that's gonna be an episode of one of your shows yeah I'm thinking about seeing it in theaters for the sixth time you're gonna yeah you're gonna see you in theaters for the sixth time and probably the seventh after that because it'd be like well I have to be podcast I have to take really good notes this time I mean I have it on DVD already but well the Twin Peaks Blu-rays would arrive today if UPS had come just a little bit later so hopefully I'll have them tomorrow more importantly hopefully I'll have like some important stuff for my apartment tomorrow like more important than some Blu-rays so that'll be great something about using it what did that you're gonna think of this episode that you believe was uneventful they're really honestly wasn't much going on using it there was a lot of like what happened in the last episode let's go back to this vampire theory a lot of unrelated stuff for instance this week Sheryl and Fens playboy spread leaked a lot of messages about that yeah so you net crowd not shocked yep and then theory that Bob is an owl resurface we've heard that before some people also speculated that Harley Payton is a student in for David Lynch and or Mark Ross and David Lynch which is a shame for the real Harley Payton yeah that people thought you weren't a real person that stinks she's and then someone also this was interesting to me going back to the the Mater's extraterrestrial message that he shows Cooper where it says Cooper several times someone was theorizing that that's Audrey's telepathic projection because she's out one eye jacks and she's kind of praying to Cooper interesting okay I mean I could yeah why not yeah and then I have one more just someone maybe maybe Audrey is a really strong sender and that's what that's saying even stronger than goop we don't know about shit coops beamed out in the space with his mind before I would watch a whole show about that what do you think he's doing when he makes those peanut triangles that's totally what he's doing all my time with the stars I really love that this show incorporates both the supernatural and the alien and triangles for the Illuminati yep what up Daisy so but the most significant post from this week was actually about the secret diary of Laura Palmer which had been released between seasons and people are talking about it a lot and so someone went through and marked all the times that any relevant character was mentioned made a list of all the characters that appear in the TV show but were not mentioned in the book and then basically based on these mentions and the types of mentions compiled a list of possible suspects and major suspects and do you have anything to say about the list that's not like maybe tipping the hand of the show too much let me take a look well I've continued a vamp here okay okay okay I bet no I was about to know I was about to be so clever about it too and you'd like no go for it I didn't say anything I'm about to vamp because you mentioned the vampire thing that that Usenet was on about today my mom who's as we record this episode working her way through our show decided to text me while I was at work to say that when my mom was at an an rice book signing in Seattle between the first and second season she saw a t-shirt and rice wrote the vampire chronicle series interview with the vampire yes and the vampire was also yeah anyway she saw a shirt someone had that said the stop killed Laura Palmer because that's like one of hey funny like it's so both comforting to me and so so frustrating to know that people were making fucking kitschy here's one pop culture thing I like and here's another pop culture thing I like smished together on a t-shirt shirts back in the 90s like whenever I see like a fucking shirt where the time machine from back to the future is crashing to the tardis from dr. who oh you like whenever I see something along those lines that's two things I love I mean I have a love hate relationship with dr. who but I don't know about you love the back of future movies and I see that shirt and you think like oh like Matt's gonna be into this but you don't know me because I hate that shit I hate it but that was a shirt let's not kill Laura Palmer and there were people who did think that you know because of like context clues like oh you know the thing about like Jacoby saying like oh I think Laura wanted to die and stuff like that where it's like okay why would something like if you're picking up on that and you're trying to like figure out what this evil in the woods is and you know any of those kind of like things and just keep more grounded in a regular supernatural mythology you'd say vampire that makes sense maybe and also like I don't know the shows don't have to give you reasons to think it wouldn't throw a vampire or some kind of empiric force in the mix so why not can I just say like I love your mom I'm sure I'm sure she'll be tickled to hear that anyway okay so the suspects list sorry yeah so the five major suspects that this person outlines purely based on the Secret Diaries of Laura Palmer the number of mentions and the type of mentions that these people get okay let's do it first one's a surprise Shelley Johnson Lee Laura's left a surprise because it's totally right Shelley Johnson killed Laura Palmer that's right no one no one on the use of words is previously speculated that it's Shelley at all okay all right and they point to the fact that Laura slept with Leo apparently more often than Bobby Briggs I mean probably like I haven't read the diary Laura Palmer but I could guess that from the show yeah and then suspect number two favorite suspect okay word okay mentioned more off this was what this person might he has mentioned more often than I would expect little motive given although doc doc Hayward although he's in the right places at like all the right times he's all over the place this episode he shows some sympathy for Leland which suggests that he's like totally a murderer exactly he tries to prevent the autopsy on Laura's body which is that's oh yeah yeah I'm pretty glaring okay yeah if you put all that together and the fact that just like he had never been a more evil looking man than Warren Frost no like what I'm saying but okay like okay he's some solid use network by the way we're only two out of five right now and I'm liking how reasonable this is yeah and they also this person also notes that a doc Hayward would have access to run it in the hospital in order to place the beat under male shit now I'm okay okay word number one suspect number three is Harold Smith and this has some spoilers for the secret I have Laura Palmer and I want to put like a sexual assault rape trigger warning on this okay so what this person says is Laura did force him into intercourse which seems upset him that is rape yes I've read that scene but what that just described as rape yes and then this person's on to know that if Bob was tormenting Harold Smith as well and they have driven him to murder and there are apparently some missing pages that occur in the diary after mentioning his name wow that that I mean that totally makes the Harold scenes really different I never picked up that as a you know even before doing this podcast and doing this rewatch like there are things from the diary that like came my way through like reading about in peace elsewhere but that was one of them wow yeah okay so that's three okay so number four is Ben Horn okay kind of similar stuff from the show he has access to her he's essentially pimping her out at one ijax also he's just like generally not a great dude mm-hmm there's something to do with like he's promised revenge and the purse responsible for the death of Troy the horse and I don't know what that's referring to and apparently there's reason to believe that he could have had access to her diary in order to remove evidence that would suggest him as a killer okay okay and then so that number five this is gonna be another surprise Johnny Horn I've actually heard I don't know if it was from you mentioned this from a previous week's episode on Usenet but I've heard this theory before I I've never heard this theory so I don't think I read it on Usenet okay Johnny Horn is of course the the older brother of Audrey who is I just I just had a momentary like wait is that the only other like horn sibling and he is yeah I just got the horns and a Hayward's like no there's so many a words there are endless Hayward's hiding daughters all over that house another suspicious thing about Doc Abraham is how many secret daughters he has anyway so so the Donnie Horn theory gets a little interesting essentially this is based on kind of the frequency of his mentions in the diary versus kind of his absence in the series and apparently one of the only sentences that he he speaks in the diary is I love you Laura Palmer and then this person goes on to speculate if Bob was also manifesting himself or for him or more likely he sensed Bob within Laura he may have killed her to free her from Bob which is an interesting theory I think yeah I I wonder if when the show was airing if I was watching the show when it was airing if I would have gone out of my way to book get the the secret diary and then trying to like I wonder if I would have been a viewer who would have thought that the book would like tip me off significantly or if I would have just looked at it as like kind of just like some side flavoring I guess I know I know that they were marketing is like you know certainly anything that was being sold like that or the the cooper tapes like as having some kind of like connection to the mystery and being able to kind of like put you on the right track but that's that's easy to say when you know you know that there's an answer you're you're like just the marketing people or the people writing it saying like oh yeah there's there's hints that I've planted when you know after like after the reveal if it ever happens like you can just say like yeah it's in there like someone someone will cover my ass if it doesn't seem that obvious like someone will be like oh you could totally doubt like I knew again I will think of the mystery cheese of our generation lost and how much fucking side stuff came out for that show yeah that was all about like it will reveal the mysteries of the island and I bought the lost video game lost via Domus and what a piece of garbage as a video game and as a lost time what a piece of garbage like you got to like see like more of some locales from the show that didn't give you any fucking sense of like what those places were actually for having related to island like not that because the showrunners even if they like knew some of where they were taking it they were communicating that with the team that was making the licensed product at least you get the between peak stuff benefit of the doubt because they were like having full like involvement with the creators right I mean it was it was Jennifer Lynch that wrote the square diagram and then like at least like they actually had Kyle record the tapes and stuff like this was all like very like a bump board like this is not just like some just a cheap cash in like people were putting thought and effort into this and wanting to make it fit with the show so that's at least something but you could also just say like hey writing a book and selling it that's like there's good overhead on that when you got a rabid TV audience that wants to find things out you don't really need to give them hints if you don't need to because that's what other shows have done so I wonder if I would have actually gone to that book being like this is gonna help me craft the code or if I would have been like depends on if I was a teenager when I was watching or if I was hypothetically me now watching good and peak so I think if I was me now watching for weeks I'd probably just save my money and not buy it at all yeah it's interesting that you bring it up because I think I'm pretty into like world-building I don't really mean that in like a no that's not in like a game of thronesy starworzy type way where it's like a mystical magical whatever place so you're you're into the Lord of the Rings maybe for the action well no make my metaphor and you don't give a shit about you're into the Lord of the Rings just as Lord rings you're not into the simil really and or whatever that like side cool book is because that doesn't give you anything additional like you like Twin Peaks and anything that's world-building you don't want there to just be like more stuff that I know is now connected to this and it just like creates a bigger more vast world you want to actually be like something meaningful to the content of why you're coming to it in the first place I mean I appreciate that you would give me the benefit of the doubt in that sense but I also like I'm I'm a sucker for like the creative process and I want to see like what's been discarded like what didn't make it into the show and like what are these like background things that are happening for the creators that we're not seeing as an audience so that's kind of my impulse to like consume these side materials and obviously you have to vet them but like something like having talked to you about a lot of this stuff recently it's made me a little more wary like something recently was what I want to know I'm sorry I'm interrupting what's the recent oh this is like not a big you're gonna laugh when I say this I feel like whatever so Justin Royland recorded some vocals for a video game that like people have been debating whether or not what he says what's included in this voiceover becomes candid for the show and like I'm really interested in that because I want to know what's happening outside of the storylines and what's this like happening in this whole world that the creators are imagining but having talked to you I get why people wanted to start that right what I want to know is what's okay whatever the don't like hold yourself back to like oh I need to just like keep this simple and not drag this out for whatever media show book whatever it is for whatever series it is I guess what's the what comes to mind is like the best-than-side material that you've seen like the best adjacent material because I want to know I want to get a sense for what and then like why I want to know what it was and why you were into that because I don't know if I'm necessarily understanding where you're coming from here with this time material I have some pretty strong opinions about this kind of like expanded universe stuff and whatever and actually some of my play-drone or multiple versions but I want to know what your baseline for like good that is I mean that would I mean the obvious answer is better call Saul and I don't know that that counts no cuz it's too good it's too good I have to really think about this then better call Saul I mean I don't think that that gets a pass because it's not like a one-off it's not like a side cool like movie or like a like a just like a one-off prequel like it is very intentionally constructed both that have some ties to break bad but also to be its own thing and I think that okay so I think this is my positive definition where it's like it's not just like expanding a universe like it's not just saying like this is going on at the same time or in the same like continuity or whatever you know it's it's that but it is consciously being constructed as its own story as its like own thing that will develop its own identity and would be good like you can come to better call Saul it's a damn good show if you have not watched breaking bad like if you're that hypothetical viewer you will be like oh there's some like you know hints the things I don't understand but you won't be lost you won't be confused and you won't just be consuming this crap for the sake of consuming something that is adjacent to breaking bad you'll be you'll be there for something genuine and good but give me something that's not as good as better call so I can get an idea of where you're coming from that's not just like oh really quality television no shit that's really good I want to know something that you kind of indulge in as you're like but not like too much but indulge in as your side material I guess okay maybe this will give you a better idea so I really like watching deleted scenes okay and I think that like that's a pretty good example of like where like where do you define like quote unquote cannon and like how do you kind of contain a work and deleted seems really interesting to me because I usually look at those as like kind of extra material that kind of like expands my understanding of the film obviously sometimes there are choices that are the reason things are cut is because they're kind of retroactively discarded and non-canonized in that sense but unless there's an obvious reason to dismiss a deleted scene I usually consider it a part of the essential story even if it's not included in the final cut you're crazy I know that's why I shouldn't use that way and to okay so all right yeah no we're really opposed on this I think there are tons of examples of deleted scenes of their delete scenes that have their own commentary and stuff this is actually incredibly relevant to in peaks because there's a whole like movie that is composed of deleted scenes from firewalk with me because they feel way too much movie for that one movie but okay but this is like I think then I like but like but like but like to me those deleted scenes are the same thing or like on the same level or similar to the like beautiful notebooks that Geremo del Toro makes when he is like brainstorming the film and like working through this creative process like I want to see how the final products came together I get that interest yeah but I don't get where do you then say like unless it's like you're also like making allowance for if it's cut and there's like there's so I'm saying there's like deleted scenes that have their own like associated commentary like notes that are like this was cut for this reason like we shot this and we didn't like this and don't consider like this is here for the production interest but like the lines that are being said and the motivations that are being expressed and whatever like that's not part of the what becomes the vision of this movie but you're saying like unless it explicitly doesn't work or is that not work like you consider it as an essential part of that work like essential key to understanding that not an essential key to understanding the work because I do think there's a delineation between like the final work and those scenes but I think I think of it as this kind of supplemental material that has contributed to the composition of the final work and gives insight into the creative process and a character development and the plot development that's going on and I just create that I want to know like what else is going on that doesn't make it to the page and I want to examine the creative process and know how things came into fruition and what what else is happening off screen all right okay yeah I mean there's something about like there's something about like a lot of deleted scenes and that kind of material I wish I knew more about these notebooks you're talking about with Del Toro because then I'd be able to respond to that better but keeping it just like deleted scenes in general like when there's something like this was cut because we got like partway into it and then we just ran up against limitations or we decided like you know there was some kind of constraint that means this wasn't working or in the editing room they're just like we had this great idea we thought it was gonna work when we were all working in the abstract and even with the crazy production and storyboards and all this eventually we just like it doesn't work in the movie and we can afford to lose it and it'll be a leaner better thing like we do that and like I you know then for me it becomes really difficult to look at that stuff that's cut and it's so weird if you wouldn't treat you can treat like old manuscripts of novels and things that in that way where they're like parts that are different in fact you can take an old manuscript totally repackaged it release it for a quick cash grab and do you know what I'm referring to what are you agreeing to go to a watchman oh you can do that and then the internet can blow up because suddenly at this finish is racist and you can say no by all accounts it looks like the you know Harper Lee's being taken advantage of here in her current state and this thing was never meant to be seen and you know aside aside from the fact that you know you don't need to interpret you don't need to come to to go to a mockingbird with ghost at a watchman in mind you don't have to but even the presence of it like shouldn't matter like like there's no chance of help this thing was ever meant to be seen and so to then react so this really to be like oh my god like this changes the the way I look at this book is so dumb to me but I can see the interest in knowing like okay this was written before the book that we all know came out and this was the direction that this character was conceptualized in prior to the book that was released like I get the interest in the production process but I think I draw the line like I don't consider deleted scenes like or anything that's like cut like I really don't consider that like I don't consider that relevant to then the going is on and I feel like that's especially important for things like Twin Peaks that matter like the plot the mystery matters so so much like I didn't consider I watched it yet but I wouldn't consider anything that happens that European pilot that has attack on ending well I think that's like obviously very different because those are two like but this is not it's not one thing it's two versions but now this is where it starts to get weird because we both I also want to note that I am on the same page as you with regards to ghost at a watchman oh okay good yeah no no I was trying to like say like you thought like no let's be clear but I want it but like but but the book that I really love like I would love to see earlier drafts of them and see what the revision process was like and how it got like you know speculate how it got from point A to point B I that's just what I'm interested in I think I would like that too but the way you were communicating so let me like I consider I consider the deleted scene my interest in deleted scenes and extension of that impulse okay and like are there deleted scenes this is what I think I'm not clear on are there deleted scenes for like any work which you consider to be without anybody telling you this but because they're there and you see them you consider that to not just be like part of understanding appreciate and work but part of the work like that's like like you just have reaction like that's in it so I think that this is actually a fairly complex question because I don't think it's so straightforward as like this is part of the work or this isn't I think that like these can be like implicit implicit aspects of the work and they can clarify implicit motivations implicit character development they can give more background and you can totally look out of work and say like this is bulky we don't need it and I appreciate that sticking out of the work for that reason but I still am interested in the fact that exists and what it looks like and I think my primary interest in deleted scenes comes from films that are cut for time okay yeah not not for like about the reasons or plot reasons or like this was feeling bulky but like we have to get it down to X number of minutes where do we start cutting force to do that that's and that's often the case like that's like the case more often that should be probably and you get in the messy situations where then like eventually you have like a five hour long cut of watchmen because next night I didn't know like how to make a two three hour long movie in the first place so I feel like I just feel like there's so many and I'm coming up this in a big way from you know having grown up being really way into video games where cut content like is a huge deal because video games are just like undeniably if they're like you know professional 60-dollar games like in terms of man hours they're like the human time like spent at desks across an entire large team making those things happen they're way bigger fairs of movies they cost way more and then as such also because like quote-unquote gamers have this weird awful like sense you know of how they consume media by like it's commonly held even amongst like really like on it critical people will like slam a game for not having enough content or it will come out later that they had tried to do other things like there had been a version of the game that was so much more or that was just so much different and then people are like I paid $50 I paid $60 where's that like I deserve that why did you cut that and they get mad at the studio or they get mad at the publisher and they like there's this like real like sense of ownership to that stuff that I think as I've gone older with like everything I've started to reject like I started to take a super like and I see it as like being very close to when David Lynch is asked about a movie after the fact he's like I'm not gonna tell you anything you go watch the movie and then the movie is there and that's something and you take it and then that's like take it from there interpret it from there and so forth like I started coming up like I've seen I've peeped behind the curtains of like big video games I peeked behind the curtains of like movies and TV enough to know that sometimes there is so much going on and that if I like started to be like oh that would have been so cool if we'd gotten it I think that for me that is a path down which madness lies there's so much that is cool to be known about production but then you get far enough into that but there can be like a legitimate sense of I don't think I don't think it's totally rational I think it's like awful when people like blow up the lives of creators because they like didn't get like the chapter of a video game or a longer cut of a movie that they thought they were promised but to know that these ambitious projects are constrained like if you don't start to wish that you had that that different version you'll at least start to wish that the conditions under which these creative works are made was different and sometimes that can be a little much like constraints are as damaging for like you know creative works as they can be like incredibly good and necessary and natural parts of the process and I think to start just be like everything should have a limited time and budget everybody should be able to make their masterwork is just like you get a lot of garbage that way like I think so I think it depends on what kind of work you're talking about because when you're talking about a film or a video game it's certainly like a huge team of people and the great works that we do see require the input of a huge team of very qualified people and I'm gonna include TV in that category as well I think when you get to a book it is different and I think that you know novels really require like full creative control and I don't I don't see how a constraint in a novel would be really of use but I also want to clarify that for me like my interest in production of my interest as if you were are like generally like very separate things and like very separate impulses and I do like respect like the integrity of the artistic artifact as it's like presented and published and finished and I do think you know my interest in like deleted scenes or supplemental material does kind of bridge the gap between those two things and it's just something I enjoy okay I've always wondered what the hell the life of a literary agent is like someone who like casuals a author finishing their books because sometimes they're thanked and authors are just like it's so important to have this person like actually like it's important for me for the creative process and then you have I don't know you have books like infinite jest where it's just like someone someone like this person go off forever and now you can see that do sure on the train reading it I don't know like but I but I think that like an editor for a novel is like very different from the like budget and time constraint that can come down from a movie studio because ultimately when you're publishing a novel you can look at these notes and they're often very helpful I think because it says like this thing that's working in your head isn't getting translated to the page and then the author can evaluate that criticism and see if the person who you know provided it is their audience or is really like fully paying attention to the work and ultimately they can shop their work around which you can't do with the studio yeah I think actually maybe this is a thing where it's like you know movies and games and television would all be healthier if they had an actual like more of an accepted like editorial like culture like if you could say like oh it wasn't because it always ends up being like you know oh my god like you want to talk about community for a bit like it's always the narrative is always like the network does something right like even if it's not like being advanced by the people working on the creative thing it's always like the network or the studio the publisher like whatever the medium is you know feeling the noun like the orders came down and we couldn't do this thing or we got the nose back and it was this way and it always seems like it plays into the more like you know corporate narrative and I think it certainly is like more that but maybe if there was like if things were different such that there were people like who aren't quite producers they're not made that involved but they are there and they're like shepherding this work in a way that doesn't feel or is it made out to be so like cold and or slimy that maybe people coming to that work and then trying to grapple with like why it is the way it is and you know why plans do or don't work out could be like oh because people are being creative and that's not something that you can like have a guaranteed outcome about ever but instead it's always just like oh if someone's so been allowed to be totally charged or show think it's better and then we gotta do this and so forth and like sometimes that's got a lot of times it's got to be an overblown reaction like it's got to be more like you know there were there were just so many things that play like it's not worth getting upset about well and the counterpoint that I would want to bring up is kind of the Netflix model because most of the creators that have given interviews about their process at Netflix have said that they don't receive notes they do what they want to do and Netflix is supportive Netflix doesn't have a rating system Netflix does whatever it wants to do which is apparently putting a lot of creative control into these people's hands and I think on average we're seeing a huge payoff obviously there are some failures and I think we can definitely acknowledge that that's going to happen what shows I'm not up enough on my Netflix original series to know what shows like to avoid and I should probably know this what should I not watch on Netflix actually I don't I don't really know I've heard bloodline is like not that good I've heard Grayson Frankie is like not that good they're not bad but they're like okay they're they're medicratically favorable reviews not universal but of course not I got to finish that yeah okay this is this has been a super interesting conversation like again I think like got a certain point like one of my favorite games of all time half-out to there was a version of that game that was leaked out before the final game came out and so much like content didn't make it in there and that just like dog to the gate like I don't think there's any like buddy who gets seriously into that game as a fan or even as a critic who doesn't like you know feel like they have to incorporate that into the narrative and that was just like that was so out of the control of the creators it got hacked and that thing was leaked and it's like when those things happen and then people like you know they can't just come to it without them like the meta narrative starts to cloud things it's just like what about the game though what about the thing what about the movie you just watched now which is why I want to say sorry I've been blabbering all about the two-on-put holy shit the missing pieces though are just cutting room for stuff that then years and years later David Lynch actually like maybe on characteristics we said I'm gonna put this together into like a feature-length thing yeah that is very very anti-lynch it just dawned on me how weird that is why we have this conversation which is why I'm super into it and I'm gonna watch it soon yeah but the other point I was gonna bring up is director pets and I think that like you made you know a good point about like constraint and control and this is just like really picking back picking back off of my Netflix thing but a lot of the really great films that are then released as directors cuts those directors cut become you know more prolific and more well known and those become the criteria collection editions and I think that I mean that's an argument for like an entre's creative control yeah I think it is definitely a solid argument to bring up the Blade Runner again like the director's cut is a definite I think there's like you can't like if your preference is the version with the like kind of tacked on noir narration like I don't get it it's so obvious watching that version that it doesn't work in service of the movie it doesn't feel right in the movie and you see the directors cut it's like oh but if you're me you see the directors cut first and later you come in here's like this tech on so it complicates that to hell you know what I was thinking of is the Donnie Darko director's cut oh my gosh have you seen Donnie Darko the first time I saw Donnie Darko I was definitely I was a you know I was a teen as you are only seen on a guard go typically I didn't you know first time so I met my friend Jared's house and so their kid Kevin is there I think you shout out to Kevin if you ever hear this I think I think you're out there like making making movies trying to do film school maybe but what you said I will never forget in the context of Donnie Darko which is that before the movie started you're like oh my god you have to watch this movie like six times to get it and I think you just meant the time travel stuff and you were wrong you were so wrong it's so it's pretty easy to follow if you met like deeper thematic things I respect that I you know cool like what's the name of the dance street sparkle motion like if you like can write an essay on sparkle motion and how it fits in the greater film after watching it six times like more power to you but if you just met like how the time travel is going on maybe you fell asleep halfway through the first five watches you're being so mean to Kevin I'm being kind of a dragon Kevin but also like I'm a like look I watched the movie primer and I saw it out because it was like quote unquote really complicated I don't even need to do the unquote is a really complicated time travel story so like I think highly of myself is that weirdly hyper specific way but what I was gonna say is like the I mean the director's cut is it feels like a fuller movie it feels like especially because I think he's a lot longer I saw that much longer wait have you seen the director's cut or the regular version I theatrical you know I couldn't tell you because it was on the DVD do you remember many details of when you saw Donnie Darker or should I not press you I think I've seen it twice and that's definitely no more recent than like 17 so okay we'll talk about this later but I I want to know I know I know the song okay there are a lot of really great 80s ballots on that soundtrack for sure all yeah but I know that's broken oh my god I really shaking the couch with the whole hard you know funny these were all that movie it's so weird that's yeah but I actually like I think this is a good example because I think that there's a lot of creative work going on in Donnie Darker and obviously it's like a movie watches a teen and you feel like it's really deep and then you feel ashamed because this was something you were into as a teen but there's a lot of like interesting creative work going on by the director slash screenwriter Richard Kelly and ultimately I feel like the director's cut version better exemplifies this like holy creative world that he engaged in and comparing the two versions I feel like the theatrical version feels like it's missing things it doesn't it doesn't feel right to me yeah I guess I guess when it comes to revisions of work I maybe have a different stance but I think it's I think I stand by the like maybe it's more trouble than it's worth to to read into it as like part of the work which I know he's in what you're even saying at this point or whatever saying just really trying to understand what you're saying really trying to keep up with you now that now that you fully come in come into your full on podcast mode now that we don't have to talk about the episode we're not not chatting but I do want to acknowledge that sometimes tie-in works are fucking terrible the fucking Furiosa origin comic I will fucking fight the person who wrote that you'll have fight them hand-to-hand you'll fight them in the Thunderdome it was also this terrible tumblr blog tie-in for a season of shameless where like this character was absent and they're like he's gonna keep a blog while he's away and you can check out on it it was the most out of character thing I have ever read you know it's one of the better web tie-ins was when they made the Walter White website for that with the donation page is super great that's like everything I've ever loved about breaking that that's the right way to do it on the subject of twin peace I mean so I don't know there's never been a different version of a David Lynch movie that's coming right there's never been a director's cut version no but like then you can get real nitty gritty and be like well when they transfer it on film so like a better like master like is that itself enough to be considered a revision like especially if it like given the way that most people can interact with it like if the color grading and stuff looks significantly different now like is that lending something different to the work but missing pieces God we're gonna like I think given the context like we can't not have this conversation like just like how we can't have a conversation about Donnie Gargoyle or Blade Runner we're just like if what we saw first was the director's cut of the ethical version or whatever does that mean we're just like gonna be like no that's what I respond to is like a baseline first and given that this thing was like the context of it is people knew that so much of what been filmed for fire walk me was just like left on the cutting room floor and that's the way it was gonna be for the longest time and then suddenly they announced the Blu-rays and they said also all that is its own thing now and it's being crafted into this different thing with 20 years of time elapsed after it like this is footage filmed in 1992 91 92 that is being approached by David Lynch after on the air after Mahaland Drive no before oh after yeah no I'm saying like this is being edited like just a couple years ago so after Mahaland Drive after the straight story yeah that's all the and in the Empire and then after a long period of time not making feature length things like in a way that's the first movie he's done in a while if you want to approach it but actually like all of it was filmed so long ago so got look forward to that podcast months from now that is just like everything I love about bonus features like I bought the Blu-ray version of bad max because they're a black and white version with a stripped-down soundtrack and I'm so excited to watch it what the fuck oh we're gonna have to watch that we're gonna have to watch that oh my good yeah we're on the way clearly wrist out actually there's another interesting thing that I kind of that's kind of on topic and I want to get perspective on so Steven Soderberg retired after directing his seminal feature magic mic although he's still like this stuff for like the Nick and stuff but so he retired and then he like just hang out at home and he recut 2001 a space Odyssey and released it on his website right I heard about that like that I mean that's like only tangentially related but like how do how do you even deal with eyes that tangential fan works like that like because that's a fan work it is it seems it seems legit because it's Soderberg but it's a fan work but it's so not it's so not it's Virgil writing me a need so what do I want to say about this I just think that that's like a wild thing that happened I mean we're talking about directors cuts and of course the thing that people like if people wanted to hit like you know not have a real conversation and just load a silver bullet to kill the idea of a director's cut they could say Star Wars quite easily because I don't think that anybody goes to the you know improved editions of those movies and says actually that they're in any way improved either like visually or content wise like CG is bad and also they fucked up the story like and that's not universal and of course like spans latch on to that and get real like upset about it but then there's like the fan cuts there are people who've restored Star Wars back to the way it was there are people who've come up with their own viewing orders and then there are people who are like like what does it mean when a real thing like self-proclaimed fan whether or not they're really like you know trying to like bring like a literary analytic item the thing that they love so much you know I don't want to like you know to like ivory tower but like oh they're not appreciating the right way there's fans but what does it mean when a large group of people who are invested in that word suddenly switch their focus to this fan work because they see it as better like this this fan interpretation of it that is not just like a theory that they subscribe to your something or interpretation of the work itself but actually like a different beast now now this has been somebody else's hands like what the fuck that's so interesting to me because I definitely think that there are cases where creators don't fundamentally misunderstand their own works and I know that sounds kind of wild especially because I'm someone that's really interested in like authorship and like whatever but there are just shows where I think it's been demonstrated that like people it was it was like widely understood that like the point of the show where the thing of the show where it's premise or it's conceived or whatever was one thing that's like very quickly discarded yeah so once we're done with the podcast like the whole show we've seen all the pinpeaks stuff we can see it's gonna be it's gonna be real hard for David Lynch and Mark Frost because we're gonna once we've cracked the nut of this after we've completed the podcast you and I are gonna go re-edit all the pinpeaks we're gonna remove Dick Tremaine and like do our own like but like we're joking about this but suddenly the idea of a twin peaks where Dick Tremaine isn't there is super exciting to me and you know that even if we did a bad job some people would be into it it it would be a thing and we'd be on like boing boing or something and be like check out the Twin Peaks fan of it that like removes all the bad shit and most of the back half the scene too people like that's a thing people are probably already doing that with the show yeah and then I really like and then there's like if that becomes a thing there's no way in which like you know I don't want to be like too like butterfly effect you about it but like the existence of these things influences like it's like the existence of criticism influences obviously what comes next in a series or in a person's like you know body of work but like I mean now my mind's spinning like do you think when he was like making the third episode of Star Wars the latest one George Lucas was being like wow people really hated the last two I did like I really got to step it up people are already like recutting those re-contextualizing those like that's nuts to me well like criticism is really wild like the showrunner for true detective Nick Pizalato or whatever his name is he like received all this criticism I don't think it's pie all I am up you're just ready to go you started off so you started off this this two hour long so like withdrawn and now you're just ready to punch punch creators in the face but it's interesting because you know he received all this criticism for like not having not investing in female characters during the first season true detective and then people were like well so you're writing season two like what's that like are you taking this into account and he says oh yeah I was and then I thought about it and I don't think it's valid so no we could have had a totally different second season of true detective and I know that this is anti like what you were saying no no no like that that statement is anti what I was saying but given like I don't take much problem with this because true detective is a big mess it's like yeah a different version of that second season would probably benefit us all it would probably for our splinter universe would probably be better not to get to Rick and Morty on this but yeah but it's so crazy because you don't want to like temper like the raw creative process and I know that that's like this weird intangible thing and I sometimes get fed up with people who really read into the idea that like the creative process is this like untenable thing that you have to like submit yourself to but ultimately like it is a concern because you don't want to produce something that's just a reflection of criticism and of people's taste you want to create something that's original and that has that you can kind of pour yourself into right I just want to start I remember what I was trying to say which was God what a shitty way to answer that question I was considering it this like valid line of like feminist criticism and I like it's not it's just like he literally said women in your show literally said I don't consider it valid you can't answer a question well as well I just learned about you yeah I mean the whole town was like you didn't really understand the show so I don't really care what you said fuck that noise but okay last thing man this this back half the podcast only like the time flew by but with all we said and it was particularly what you just said about you know the cult of like submitting yourself to the creative process and that being on a saleable in the series and so forth do you think David Lynch takes himself too seriously when he talks that way no I love it I get annoyed with people on like a personal level and that happens before like relating on like an artistic or creative level there's a certain degree to which I can deal with it my frustration comes from people who are like my creative process is like being an asshole to people and like hang out and coffee shops like drinking a lot or stuff like that okay do you get what I'm saying I mean it also annoys me when people are like I can't be constrained like this is my creative process and they have like nothing to back it up if you have like a good creative process that is consistently turning out like really quality work like that's something that I want to respect but if you can go with that he's not even committing the Cardinals sin you've identified which is being an asshole about it yeah he just says like oh my own drive all the production stuff happened and then when I you know sat down and make a movie it became what it was meant to be that's not really a dick statement so totally fine with that okay cool well let's close this out I'm Matthew Olson if I'm on Twitter it's at Matthew Olson Matthew with one T OLS oh and I do another podcast just one with my friend Caitlin best called can you get to that you can find that also on simple cast yeah it's a comedy show and maybe this is the last thing I say to this podcast actually just close up a whole thing from here so I'm actually brand you can find me on Twitter at Ashley Brandt you can find us this podcast on Twitter Tomler Facebook if you search Twin Peaks that is our username across all three of those platforms I post different stuff on all those platforms so there's always newish stuff happening and it's really cool when you guys reach out to us and let us know that you're watching or you're responding you're not watching you're listening and responding to what we're saying that's really fun it like brightens up my day when that happens and I am currently hosting two other podcasts one is yeah I've seen that with Sandra Deanda our first episode went up earlier this week and we're talking about the Emmy nominees for the 2015 Emmy Emmys and that award show here on Sunday and we're gonna be tackling classic movies as well as topical movies she will maybe be guesting on this podcast and she's hilarious and really great so look forward to that and then coming out real soon or by the time this podcast airs is the K-hole the only Kardashians podcast on iTunes in which we talk about both keeping up with the Kardashians the show and real-time Kardashian news it's gonna be great do you want to say okay and that's all for me so you asked me earlier why I say these grapes are on edge instead of these grapes are right on the edge and I like that makes it makes the grapes sound like they're anxious so these grapes are right on edge