My god, people, ladies and gentlemen, for people watching, for people listening, I've got an amazing freaking guest today, like, like, just like, wow, you know, she's, she's the CEO of a big ass motherfucking company, Refine Labs, probably, you know it from my last guest, Triss. She's a female power woman, so I'm really enticed to go into that. Ladies and gentlemen, have a very, very big welcome for Megan Bowen. And my first question to you is, what did you have for breakfast?
I love the intro, love the energy. Thank you for having me. What did I have for breakfast? Thank you for asking.
I've actually, I've been on a health kick. I just turned 40 in February and I have, yes, 40. And I have, you know, decided to really invest, I'm calling 2024 the year of Megan. And so one of the things that I'm doing is really dialing in on my health and like my daily habits.
So what I have for breakfast was my new breakfast that I basically eat every single day, which is a smoothie, some protein powder, some spinach, some banana, blueberry, little ginger, chia seeds, yogurt, all, all the things that I need to start the day. I love it and it makes me feel great. So that's what I have for breakfast. Oh, it reminds me of that poet society carpet, DM sees the day.
You're ready for today. That was my motto. I really angst teenager. Yeah, I had like Carpe DM on all my notebooks and did you like it?
Right? Yes, love the movie. Yeah, such a I was actually going to be a filmmaker. When I was young, I was determined to be a movie director.
So I've seen every movie. I've made little movies and films. That's amazing. That's well, but what a turnaround like going from like a very creative kind of thing to a corporate environment.
Like how did that happen? I know young Megan would probably be disappointed. It's a good question, actually. I think it was probably when I was like around nine or 10, I kind of had this like, you know, I guess every young kid says, you know, I'm going to be the thing, I'm going to be a doctor, an astronaut.
Every kid has their dream of like what they're going to be when they grow up. So my first dream was I'm going to be a filmmaker. I grew up in LA, was definitely like around that scene and starting at 10 actually. So this was 1994.
I used my parents camcorder and this was like a huge camcorder. There was like a battery pack that I'd have to wear like in a backpack on my back and I would write these movie scripts. They were all like violent murder thrillers and I would recruit my brother, my neighbors, my friends and I would basically boss everybody around to like act out this script that I made. I would also star in my own films as well, of course.
I had limited cast members at my disposal and I made a ton of movies. I had one called the vengeance trilogy. There was three of them. And up until I was 17, I was like, I'm doing this.
I interned for the LA short film festival. I was like meeting people trying to, you know, break into the biz. And then I was applying to colleges and I was really thinking about it. And I was like, you know, I think I want to just make a lot of money and then I'll make movies with my money.
So I'm going to go to business school and I got a degree in business. Okay. All right. This is like a little bit what we talked about like the society driven things of like what six is are.
Do you still have a lot of affinity with the filmmaking and that or is that something that's like, I always really a child is dream. So you bring up something that really, really resonates with me, which is this being what you think others want you to be being what you think society wants you to be. And so growing up, I was absolutely the person that felt the need to people please and to do the things that I was supposed to do. You know, I was a straight A student, you know, as varsity swim team captain, I would do all of the things and felt a lot of pressure to be the best to be perfect and never really thought about what I really wanted.
The filmmaking itself was I would say like the one thing that was like the thing that I pursued that gave me such joy that was not imposed upon me by anyone else. I actually, my mom took me to New York for the first time when I was about nine years old and she tells the story I was walking around the city and I was like, this place feels amazing. I love this place. I'm going to live here one day.
And as I was thinking about applying to colleges, right out of high school, my parents, you know, my parents didn't want me to move far away, right? So they were expressing that to me. And I think because I was both scared of making that big change, but also because it was really difficult for me to do things that I felt would disappoint the people that I loved in my life. I didn't apply to New York schools.
So I did my first year of college at San Diego State. And I, I realized actually my first week, I went to my first week of college and I realized I am not supposed to be here. I am supposed to be in New York and I made a mistake. And so I ended up applying to transfer to schools in New York the following academic year.
And I did not tell anybody that I was applying because I felt like if I told people they would talk me out of it and I would listen because I didn't, I couldn't like disappoint people. And what I was realizing was I need to go somewhere where I don't know anybody and I have no external influence from people I care about so I can actually figure out what I really want. And that feels like that was, that was like putting a lot of pressure on yourself. Like I there's a couple of things in your answer that I would love to dig a little bit deeper, but like the pressure that you're putting on yourself there, where do you think that that originates is that because of like, you know, like your varsity swim captain, you've been a varsity swim captain that is some, some high achieving things.
Is that because of like pressure that that was put onto you or pressure that came from an internal aspect? I think it was both. I think that I had people in my life that had really high expectations of me, but I think that I amplified those expectations to an extreme. And I think I internalized those and in addition to the some of the external pressure, I was putting even more pressure on myself.
I think it was both. Okay, so there's there's this external pressure and then the pressure that you're putting on yourself. So it's an amplification that's happening there. How scared were you for like, you know, applying to New York or was that more excitement?
Like what was going on there? So it was interesting because at the time I ended up, I was dating somebody who grew up in New York and he was the only person that I told and I said, do you want to go back to New York? Because I didn't know anyone and at the time I thought this could be a good, easy transition. If I go with him, he has friends and family there.
And initially he was like, I'd love to go back to New York. This is awesome. Let's make this plan and let's do this. So I applied to colleges.
I got in. This was in, you know, September of 2002 and with the intention to start in the fall 2020 or 2003 school year. So I got into the schools I wanted. I picked a school that I was going to go to.
I told everybody after the fact once the decision was made, we were starting to make plans and me and him were going to move to New York in June of 2003. A week before our one-way flight, I find out he's been cheating on me with his married co-worker for months. We break up. He's basically like, sorry, I guess you're not going to go to New York.
I was like, oh, I'm still going. Just not with you anymore. But I had to regroup a little bit because my plan was to stay with hit like his friends and family for a period of time before we got settled. So I moved back in with my parents in LA for a couple of months to like make a new plan.
And then I moved to New York August 15th of 2003 by myself. I was heartbroken that summer and when I moved there and honestly the first two years that I lived there was really, really hard. I was lonely. I was scared.
I didn't know anybody. I was supporting myself. I was trying to figure out like, you know, and I think the hardest part for me was my friends and family, like they love me, but they were so they didn't want me to go. So I did not feel like I could open up to the people that I grew up with and share that I was having a hard time that I was like second guessing my decision to move because I felt that they would just immediately say come back.
And I knew I had to stick it out. There's this amazing poetry like between what sets and not mens and what's meant and what's meant and what's said love gets lost. I think it's such an amazing thing about like, you know, communication and like projection and everything like where they verbal about about the fact that like they didn't want you to move out or how can I see that? Or was that maybe something that you might have created yourself there or?
No, everyone was like, don't go. We don't want you to go. Why are you going? What are you looking for that you can't get here?
We want we would prefer that you stay. And then every time I go back to visit, when are you moving back? So it was pretty explicit. Yeah, this really I'm sure I I'm sure I put additional pressure on myself because of my people pleasing tendencies.
So I'm sure when they said something, I felt it and heard it and again in an amplified manner. But it was it was definitely pretty explicit. That must have been great. Oh, I can just like feel the enthusiasm about it.
It's crazy. Something interesting that you said there like loneliness, I'm going to transition myself. So I used to party a lot. I used to do a lot of drugs.
I used to, you know, just be very self destructive of my own ambitions. And I've decided 28 September last year, like, okay, stop with this with this foolishness. And I want to really make something out of myself and really grinding very hard towards it. And I feel like I'm in this transitional phase.
So all my supposed friends that I used to have their gun, they're not there anymore. And I didn't achieve any outward success. Yeah, I'm very process focused. So in my opinion, I'm succeeding every day, but it's not out there yet.
So this means that I'm in this limbo phase where like the guys that don't interest me anymore, they're gone, the guys that interest me, they're like, who the fuck is this guy? And I feel like every transitional period, like really needs to tackle that loneliness. And that's why people need to make sacrifices when going to through something, you must have been very motivated for yourself to like, you know, deal with that loneliness. And how did you deal with that?
It's so interesting because I actually have a really easy time meeting people, making new friends, and so I took a really interesting approach when I moved here. So remember how I was kind of saying before, like, I felt like I had to go somewhere where nobody knew me, so that I could really figure out what it was that I wanted. And so it was a really kind of weird period, especially in hindsight, to think about it. But I almost used like my the fact that I didn't know anybody and no one could say like, well, why are you acting that way?
That's nothing like you, right? Because nobody knew historically what I was like. So I went through this period of time in the first two years where I was almost putting on completely different personalities, like different ways of behaving, acting, communicating, you know, experimenting, saying things out loud that maybe I never would have said out loud to my friends or family back home. I was I was basically trying to learn by trial and error and experience what felt right, what felt authentically me.
And it's and in that period, I went through phases where I would get really close with a person or a couple of people for a very short period of time. But kind of like you just described, I'd realize like, this isn't me, this isn't these aren't my people. And then I quickly moved on to the next thing. So it was this like very iterative process of like, I don't even know where to start.
So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be different things that I think maybe are interesting and I'll know, and I'll like learn by experience, you know, what actually matters to me. I find that I find that I really feels authentic. It's so interesting because like I think like one of the biggest gifts that we can have as humans is like really, really knowing oneself, you know, really being self aware about like what what makes us drive what makes us what doesn't make us drive. And just that only that is like already such a big achievement to find, you know, and I think that the more you expose yourself to things, the more you kind of find your way in that.
There's a theory I have and there's this huge pressure like, you know, society wise on women, especially like, you know, you see it in commercials, you know, Venus embrace with like, you know, these beauty standards and everything, which is which is crazy. And then for guys, it's more of like, you know, being the strong one, the non emotional one, luckily, there's a shift in that, you know, but I've got this theory, especially for women, it's it's really hard to get really self confident because there's so much like pressure outwards. And I think and correct me if I'm wrong, but like my theory is that true confidence, a lot of times comes for women after they're 30. Because it's like a moment that they're like, Hey, now I really know what I want to I am.
And fuck all of these prejudices and everything. Is that something that you can relate to? So I have a slightly different perspective, but agree with what I think the point that you're making. I have always been extremely confident in myself.
Okay. My issue is I have a real problem with my self worth. And so there's a difference between self confidence and self worth. Self confidence is external.
I've never had an issue showing up believing that I belong there, you know, saying what I have to say, pushing back, disagreeing, you know, going toe to toe with people. But internally, I've always really struggled with with believing that I am worthy. And the interesting interplay that comes from that is it's not surprising that I had people pleasing tendencies because it wasn't I could be very confident, but feel very unworthy internally. Like those things can coexist.
Yeah, absolutely. And and the worthiness was believing that I had to achieve a certain thing or or please a certain person and that getting that external validation was in the moment what made me feel worthy. And only what I've learned, you know, over the course of my 40 years on this planet is only you can give yourself that feeling of self worth. And it's something I'm actively working on right now.
I don't know if you've heard of the concept of human design. No, you should look it up. It's really fascinating. I've recently discovered it and discovered like the type of design I am as a human, which is called a projector.
And it actually has resonated with me so much because the way that a projector sort of self actualizes is when they go through a seven year deconditioning process and truly embrace their self worth. And then the world opens up like once you conquer that personal Mount Everest, everything else in your world will fall into place. And so, you know, I think I'm on this like journey now, I think as I turn 40, I think I'm at the beginning of my own probably seven to 10 year deconditioning process. And I believe probably for me, like my best most contentful life will probably begin at 50.
But my experience, my trials, my errors, my mistakes, my relentless pursuit of my own self awareness and personal development, like that journey will be so critical to then enjoy, enjoy what comes in my next chapter. And so I'm trying to embrace the journey of I've done a lot, I've had a lot of successes. But now I need to kind of have, I need to go inward, and I need to have like the ultimate inward success. And that is that is what is my definition of success right now.
And like what actually matters to me. I think personally, that's a great definition. It's very great. And also like with the thing that you said about self worth versus self confidence, I feel like you're right with like the the the shift there of like self worth being more like a process kind of thing and confidence just like an emotion like anything else but a self worth feels way deeper than just that sporadical emotion of hey, I feel confident in doing something to the great, great, great answer.
So people pleasing, people pleasing has come up a few times now, people pleasing usually usually comes from from some trauma in, you know, in the past, like abandonment and you know, that for me personally, I'm also a people pleaser. My dad left me when I was like, I around one or two or something, it has nothing to do with me, Russian, I noticed. Emotionally, I feel that the love that should be obvious, like, you know, parental love, I he was like, Hey, I'm leaving you, that's how I feel. And that's where my people pleasing comes from.
Do you have any idea where your mates come from? Yeah, and you know, I have great parents and I grew up with both of them. I think the nature of the way I grew up and how my parents both worked full time, my mom was a breadwinner, but my dad also worked. And so from a very young age, I cultivated a pretty extreme independence.
Like at five years old, I would take my three year old brother to preschool, I'd make us our lunches, I'd take myself to school, I'd pick him up and bring him home. You know, my mom decided to change careers, I think starting at nine, I started being in charge of like making dinner for the whole family every night. So I just had like a such a, and actually in hindsight, like it, the good things about that are independence, like resourcefulness, like ability to figure things out, very self-reliant. But I think the shadow side of that was I've never really felt that anybody has like taken care of me.
And so the way it comes out is, well, if I do things for people, if I take care of people, maybe people will reciprocate and give me that thing that I'm craving, but it doesn't really work that way. It's actually also a kind of abandonment, unfortunately not also. But it's a kind of abandonment of like, you know, when you've got like a high functioning parents, you know, that means that probably they're a little bit less there. And as I said, like the parental love, I don't know if that's something that's recognizable.
Yeah. And again, I think I don't think it was like intentional or like cruel on their behalf, but it was definitely like a, oh, like from an early stage is like, I've got to figure all this out on my own. Like there's no one that's really going to take care of me. So it's like, I have to, I have to take care of myself.
And then I also felt this strong desire to care for my younger brother, who I loved. And so it was like feeling like a lot of responsibility. And yeah, and not really thinking that there was an alternative, right? Just like, oh, this is what I, this is life, this is what I need to do now, right?
And only in hindsight, can you realize like, oh, that's interesting. And if I, you know, I wonder if things were a little different than how would, how would I have turned out differently? I have had different tendencies as a result. Yeah, probably.
It's like the whole nature and nurture kind of thing. We also went about that with my loss. I guess was really interesting. Super interesting.
The, the, so you said like, hey, okay, I changed my, I changed my, my goal stores from being a filmmaker to wanting to, you know, earn money. That's really honest, by the way. So appreciate that, honestly. It's like, I feel like a lot of like, it's like, looked at this bad thing to want to pursue money.
Are you, are you still completely like, like, is that still the plan? Like, hey, let's do something creative later? Or is that completely shifted? So I'm definitely in a period right now where I'm trying to further clarify what I really want, you know, for the rest of my life.
This human design concept, that I've been studying recently has been really illuminating to me. And before I discovered this, a common question that I would be asked is, you know, why do you like being a leader? Like, I've had a lot of leadership positions within business, right? And like, what does it mean to you to be a leader?
You know, what makes you feel, what lights you up at work? And the answer that I would always give was, you know, I feel what really lights me up is when I work with other people. And I am able to like, create the conditions for their own professional development. I'm able to give someone an opportunity that maybe they wouldn't have gotten elsewhere.
I'm able to mentor or guide someone to discovering something for themselves that is really meaningful. That is what always has made me personally just feel really fulfilled, right? Like, that that feels really good. It's funny, you were asking me like, Oh, what's it like to work with Chris?
I remember the first time Chris asked me, we were probably working together for like two or three months. And he was like, he's like, why are you, why are you doing this? Why did you decide to join me? And I kind of like, I was like, well, I can give you like, I think what I feel is the real answer, which is, you know, I started working with him before he was like a LinkedIn celebrity, right?
When we started working together, it was like a very different time in his own personal career. And I said, I see so much brilliance within you, but I also see that I think that you need some help from someone like me to create the conditions for you to, to move through this current phase in your chapter in life. And I'm not trying to like take credit for his success, but I think that in working together, I was able to contribute something very unique to his own journey. That was able to accelerate his path.
And I've had similar experiences with many other people that I've worked with over the course of my career. And I remember him coming back to me and saying, he's like, that sounds so weird. Like, you should you should have like a really selfish reason of why you want to do the things that you do. And at the time it was really hard for me to explain what it was, but it is kind of selfish.
Everything we do is selfish. It's like, you know, like you help someone, you help someone, but you get a good feeling for a really good feeling. It's like, it's like, you know, elk-wishing is the biggest bullshit in the world. Like, I mean, oh, yeah, Elk-wishing is true.
No, like the moment you feel something, you're doing it for you. Really interesting, because like, with the things that you're saying, like, you really, you really sound like an enabler, you know, like coaching, giving back, you know, and in giving back, you're actually receiving so much. And that's a terrific why if you ask me, you know, like, it's like a ripple effect, you know, this human design thing, this, so this design type that I am is called a projector. And then like the subcategory I'm in is role model martyr and effectively martyr.
Yeah. So it's like the shadow self is when it goes with some Wednesday, Adam's fives there. It's just the dress. Yeah, like, you know, when I was making horror moves and everything and busting everyone around.
You're not the first person to say that, by the way. But the, the, what this human design thing says about my particular design is that I am supposed to be the mentor, the guide, the teacher, the advisor, that that is why I was put on this earth, that that is my calling, right? And so it's funny because, you know, I've really been thinking about like, what's next? At some point, I won't be the CEO of Refine Labs, right?
I'm not going to do this till I die, but I'm going to do it for a while, but there will be a next chapter, right, as there always is. And I've been really trying to understand what that is. And I currently, because of all of the studying I've been doing, I really believe that I don't know exactly what it's going to look like. But I think that my work will evolve into working with people on a one-on-one basis to help them realize their potential.
Now that can take so many different forms, right? There's so many directions. So I don't know exactly what, what that will look like, but I think that's what it will be. And I've been thinking a lot about my early passions for filmmaking because it's made me think about, huh, maybe there is a really creative pursuit I could enjoy to make a film or a documentary or something and put that out in the world to express my experience and my point of view and the wisdom that I've gleaned and the other component about the projector design is that I'm not supposed to go after anything and I'm supposed to wait to be invited.
So how do I put my energy out in the world and wait for those invitations and then discern which is the right invitation for me to say yes to. I mean, that is a form of marketing. You're not wrong. I know we're laughing, but it's true.
No, it's super interesting. It's also, it's also a little bit refreshing because like every time when I see like, you know, business coaches, you know, like business coaches where we were coaching an entrepreneur behind the business and then it's like a 20 or 30 or something, we didn't achieve anything of like of merit or background and I'm like, is this really like, I don't know, but on the other hand, like it might as well be, you know, so it's really funny, really funny there. Okay, so and then like documentary type, the thing that I really love talking about a little bit is it's like we've been talking a lot about like your self development, your leadership skills, by the way, I think that the moment you're 10 years old, then you get around to whole film crew that's already like science of leadership right there. You know, so so it's like, yeah, I can still boss people around.
Yeah. What are what are things that if you look at your life, like the things that really defined you as a person, like, let's see if I have an example, I go bullies. I can't say that. Okay.
Okay, perfect. Yeah, moving to New York was the first big thing for me that it made me realize how brave I am. My bravery is one of my favorite qualities about myself. I am not afraid to do anything.
Like I just got certified in scuba diving, which is like my new hobby right now. And I like, I love it so much going scuba diving. And every time I tell people, they're like, are you afraid? I'm like, yeah, I'm afraid.
I'm going 60 feet underwater. It's scary. And I'm like, but I love it. Like it feels good to do things that you're afraid of.
So I think moving to New York was a very formative decision. I was scared. I was able to exercise and build my courage and my bravery. I really started to figure out like the type of person that I was.
And I'm really, really proud of that. I think another defining moment for me, I have had a successful career, right? I had an objectively successful career. I started out in sales and then account management.
I built, you know, post sale teams, account management teams at multiple companies. I've been part of IPOs. I've gotten a company acquired. I thought all of these, you know, things that I can say that I've done.
One of the things that was really fascinating to me was in my mind, you know, at in business school, I was like, I'm going to be like a COO or a CEO one day. I started with COO because I had a lot of limiting beliefs. I thought, I'm not the ideal person. I'm the executor.
I'm an integrator. I'm like the number two on the sidekick. When I got my first COO position, it was at a company, I started as I was hired as the director of account management. And within 18 months, I was the chief operating officer.
And that was a really transformative moment in my career, making that significant jump. And it was gradual, took over sales, marketing, operations, had a couple of different titles in between and then eventually was put in the COO role. And, you know, that was when I was about 35, it was about, or maybe 34. And when that happened, I, you know, I expected, like, I'm like, this is what I've literally been working towards for 14 years.
And when it happened, I felt nothing. I did not feel accomplished. I didn't even feel happy. I felt empty.
I felt tired. I felt confused. And it really, I think kind of to the point that you bring up around societal conditioning around what, what is defined as success, it was just like this, like stark realization that this thing that I've been working towards for 14 years, like it, it was, it was not what I wanted. It didn't feel good.
And it was like such a mind fuck. Yeah, I can imagine, can imagine like a, like a avoid can. I think like a lot of people also, like really try to work very hard to some goal. And then the moment they achieve the goal, it's like, you know, so I think it's so hard.
You mentioned, you mentioned you love the process. Oh, yeah. That mindset is, that mindset is probably the best thing that you can have as you're making your own like life pivot and transition. Yeah.
How do you keep that up? It's not easy to do. Autism. Like autism really, like I'm so lucky.
Well, it wasn't very hard to you, but my autism fuck, that's a gift. Like really, like it's a freaking superpower. Like the things that bore people like, I freaking love processes. I love like, you know, to, to, to data and everything.
Like, I feel like if I have enough data, you know, that you can predict the future. Like, and to give a point to that, like if you go broke off every Wednesday, then the chances are, X percent that you'll go for coffee next Wednesday. If you talk about someone, enough times, chances are that one of those times you talk about this person, he will eventually show up like your statistics and everything. And it's like, yeah, my mind works in that kind of way.
So, so I think it's, it's really autism. So that's really cool. That's really interesting. Yeah, it is super interesting.
How you're wired, basically. It's how I wired. Yeah. And and and thank God, because like the, the, the deficit of that is my emotional intelligence.
So long, long term relationships tend to be a little bit hard for me, because like I need to put so much energy in, in feeling, you know, like most of the things that other people go through, if I didn't go through it myself, it will be very hard for me to put myself in that person's place. So that's one of the downsides. So very high IQ, very low EQ, but fortunately, soft skills are something that can be learned. And that's also why I try to, you know, speak with highly successful people and everything to learn and to just sponge.
But stuff. Absolutely. And I do believe emotional intelligence can be learned. So I agree with you there.
A lot of people think the opposite, but it absolutely can be learned. The things like, because there's, there's a, there's a silver lining. There's a, I don't know exactly the words, a side notes to that is like, I will never be able to truly on a, on a, on a, on a heart level, be able to feel stuff. So most of my EQ comes from my brain, and less from my heart, if that makes sense.
And it's really hard to, to explain that. It does make sense to neurotypical persons, people. But like, I need to put effort in, like, you know, reading micro emotions, like, you know, that little thing. But because of that, because I'm very focused on it, I tend to be better at it than when I, when I put my game on, when I don't put my game on, I'm terrible.
My girlfriend is like, does this dress make me look fed? I'm like, yeah, a little bit of ghostboards. And I get like your shoots, my head like, what the hell? So, so kudos.
So this is fascinating to me. Yeah, because so I would say I'm like the opposite. And I, up until recently, when I learned about being a projector within human design, I would describe myself as an empath. The my, my lived experience is such that I can be having a one-on-one conversation with someone.
And I can, I literally absorb and feel what is happening with you right now, without you even telling me how you are feeling. And, you know, the where that can be a superpower is I can go into a room, I can have a conversation with someone, I immediately feel where they are at. I can communicate in a way with them where they feel seen and heard, I can empathize to a degree, even having never ever experienced what they were experiencing, because I'm literally feeling it as I'm engaged with them. What I learned in my human design study as a projector is this type, which is on the rarer side, I have no innate energy source.
And my energy is derived from my environment and the people around me. So it's not even something I can control, right? It's just, I'm, I'm absorbing energy from people. The thing I'm trying to learn right now is to distinguish between is that, am I feeling that as Megan?
Or am I feeling someone else's stuff and where it can go wrong? Is when I'm with someone feeling a lot of strong emotion that isn't that's difficult for them to process, it is projected on to me, I absorb it and reflect it back. And in hindsight, it's been fascinating where I've had a lot of conflict or challenges and personal relationships. It's almost as if I'm giving people a mirror of what's happening within them.
And if they're not ready to see that, there is a strong negative reaction. And they're not ready to receive what I'm giving back to them, which is them. And then it's back on me. And, and I'm actually defined as a non emotional person, my steady state is calm, cool and collected, but I constantly get accused of being emotional, talk about being a woman in the workplace and confident, if I'm assertive, if I raise my voice a little bit, I'm a bitch, emotional.
And it's, it's so fascinating. So I've only really come to this realization recently. And so now when I'm in a heated conversation, I actually try to separate myself and look at the situation while it's happening as an observer. And I try to look at what's the interplay.
And I'm like, Megan, this isn't yours. This isn't yours. Like, feel it, but let it pass through. And it's a really fascinating dynamic, right?
So I would say in the way you describe your, how you process the world around you and how your EQ is more intellectual. I sort of have like the opposite experience. And what I'm finding is I have to intellectualize the emotions so that I don't get that super fascinating and sucked into it. And also so hard to do because like, you know, like, like, listening, like, this is yourself.
It's such a hard exercise, especially when, like, when you're in a heated discussion, something that I truly like, I feel a lot like when someone's angry, for instance, they're not angry at you, per se, they're angry on their projection of you, which is like, such a big difference, you know, because like the same with love, if you love someone, you don't love them, you love your projection of them, if that makes sense. And it's such a hard thing to like, because I find that like really helpful to like, when shit goes to me or when people are yelling or whatever, it's like, I find it so helpful to be like, to disconnect that with myself, you know, if that makes sense. But so hard, so hard to do. So kudos that you're able to do.
You told us a little something about like, you know, raising your voice a little bit, and then being the bitch as a woman, I believe in equal opportunities. I do not believe in equality. I believe in equal opportunities. My reason being, and this is just data, you know, if two people, exactly the same competences have, and woman is like, yeah, when I have a child someday, this means a couple of months that she's out of work, you know, with a male knot.
And I feel that it is completely your rights to have a child or not. And this is gonna, this is gonna, I already see the eyes like, where is he going with this? Dread lightly. So, now, tread hardly.
I don't care. Right. So I feel that I feel that feminism is the, is the, is a female form of machismo. I feel it very stupidly.
And I'm really wondering, like, what's your perspective on like equal opportunity? Because it is a hard thing because like, if two equally qualified people get their cv's on your table, like statistically wise, there's more chance of a fallout of the woman than of the men. Like, what's your take on that? Yeah.
So I think I, I think I actually agree with you, but I wanted to describe a couple of real experiences that I've had. I'm just gonna describe them. And then I would like to get your opinion on, if, on what you think about that experience. Okay.
And this is, play with me here. This is gonna get to, I think what you want to hear. Okay. So I was at a company, I was at a company called Zokdok.
I started as a customer support agent at that company. It was very an early stage startup. They had a sales team, a technology team and a customer support team. I had observed after working there for nine months that they were missing a post-sale function.
And that was the cause of a lot of negative customer experiences. And I put a business case together and proposed to the company that we should have a post-sale function that I could build it, I had a plan, et cetera. They actually gave me the opportunity to do so. And I felt really lucky and it was really exciting.
So I move into from the support team to the sales organization. I am the only woman among a group of male leaders. The male leaders are managing the sales team. I am managing the post-sale team.
A year into that, I was able to dramatically impact business results. I improved churn by over 50%, which was multi-million dollars in annual recurring revenue. Just really quick churn for the people listening churn means a fallout. So that means if you got 100 people to a subscription product and 50 people fall out, that means 50% churn.
So for the people that don't know that business, Doc? I increased our customer and NPS net promoter score significantly. All of these undeniable business results. I was going about my way, doing my thing.
And one of the sales leaders that wasn't my direct boss pulled me aside one day. And they said, Megan, I feel like I need to tell you something. And I'm not, I want you to know, but I'm not sure I can do anything about it. I said, okay, what?
He said, your male colleagues that are on your same level, they're all making 40 to $50,000 more than you right now. And I was like, what? And he's like, yeah, I just thought you should know. I'm like, fuck.
Okay, I was like, well, what should I do? And he's like, well, I think you should start and talk to your boss. And if you want, you can tell him that I told you I'm okay with that. And I'm telling you because it's not fair.
And the impact that you're having on the business is arguably even more than these people. And I just, I see you working so hard and driving such good business results. And it just breaks my heart. And I don't feel it's fair.
I said, thank you for telling me. So I go talk to my boss, and I tell him. And I say, you know, what can we talk about what it would take to get me to that level? Do you need me to demonstrate something that I'm not demonstrating today?
You know, is there something do you have some constructive feedback for me? You know, it wasn't like I went in there and demanded a raise today. I just said, like, Hey, I found out about this and I'd love to talk about, you know, what we can do together to get me, you know, on par with my colleagues. And the response was, I'm not going to give you more money.
Do whatever you want. So what do you, what do you think of that situation? Yeah, this fucked up points like this just messed up, this completely messed up. And I'm also like thinking like, because like, there's also a study that narcissists earn more money than non-narcissistic people.
Psychopaths are more in CO roles than non-psychopaths. And it's like, do these people like, is it because like men are more narcissistic? Or is it really just because like, you're a woman and that that thing is that that was the only explanation, because you could point to all of the other objective criteria. I was working harder.
I was saving the company more money. I was producing better results. I, so you know what happened? I left.
Yeah, of course. I mean, for that, you know, want to know what happened after that? When my boss and his boss got fired six months later, that company tried to recruit me back three times. And I said, no, with a higher paycheck, I hope.
Yep. Fucking hell. But so, you know, I view that as people discriminating against me because I am a woman and for that reason alone. And I think that's a shame.
No, 100%. I talked a little bit about my autism before. One of the things that my autism is that I'm questioning a lot. So the thing is like, because like, to give you an example, as a neurotypical people, they get born and they, you know, they take in, they've got a social blueprint in them.
And they've got a lot of mirror neurons. It's called where with me, my process, my, my, my input processing is completely wired differently. So things that are obvious to what are people are not obvious to me. And one of the things that I cannot fathom, like cannot fathom, I cannot understand it.
No matter how hard I try, it's like, if a woman decides to go for it and just completely dominates, I cannot understand that she's not paying more. Like, I really believe in meritocracy. You know, in merits, no matter your age, your gender, your, your color, like it's so. Let me tell you another story.
So I was describing my empathetic nature, right? I was describing how I can intensely feel the emotions of others and the things around me. Like, if I'm in a movie theater watching a movie and there's an emotional scene and people maybe in the theater or on screen or crying or having an emotional reaction, I am just, I am going to have that reaction. I like, cannot stop myself.
And it's just because I have this overwhelming sense of the emotion. I'm actually a really strong and brave person. It's not a matter of weakness. Sorry, very, very quickly, crying in public is fucking strings.
Or crying when you need to cry. It's like, for me, what I've realized, it is a release. It is like a physical release of this intense emotion in positive or negative situations, right? You tears of joy, right?
And it can go in all these different ways. So, and I really, I'm someone that cares, arguably I care too much. And so when I'm in a business or doing something, I have high standards. I expect a lot of people, I get intense, I care about the outcome.
I mean, the last thing that I am is apathetic. If I get to apathy, it's over for me. Like if I'm apathetic towards something, it's like, bye, like there's nothing left here. It's time for me to move on.
So that's the other, I think, experience I've had over and over and over and over again. And similarly, a man in a similar position who debates passionately for their side, the style is different and socially acceptable. And so what that has materialized in my career has been dismissed, you know, being dismissed, being called emotional, being called a bitch. Actually, when I quit that job where my boss told me he wasn't going to pay me more money.
And he said, why are you leaving? I'm like, what? I was like, I got a higher paying job. And he was like, wow, if you want a little bit of feedback, the way that you're like, the way that you're handling this conversation makes you a cold bitch.
And I was like, what? Like, I was very respectful. I gave notice. I came to him and asked for more money.
I'm like, I think I actually did everything correctly here. And you're just pissed. You didn't think I was going to leave. I know my worth.
I know that I can get paid more. And so like, explain that. So I what I what I my answer to your question is, I don't really care about feminism or this and that. I believe in equal opportunities.
I believe in a meritocracy. But the amount of bias that exists is undeniable to pretend that that doesn't exist. And just to pretend that we're playing on an even playing field is naive. I'm not I'm I'm and I'm not actually demanding anything from anybody.
And if I can't get what I believe that I deserve or need in the situation, I'm going to just find another situation. So I've I'm at peace with it myself and I have found a way to work around it. But I've experienced this over and over again. That's also a thing that is so fucked up, you know, it's like, because you're biased and the society's biased.
And the problem is like, it's this is this fucking David, this huge, you know, sorry, Goliath is freaking huge, Goliath, you know, he's freaking by and I'm actually feeling like my body's like completely tinglinging and like, I'm feeling the anger towards it. And and that like results in like, yeah, I've come to peace with it. Like that himself is already like so fucked up, you should never, in my opinion, and it's so hard to say, especially for my position as a man, but I think you should never be fucking at peace with that shit, you know, and it's like, you know, but you know why I am because me being angry only hurts me. Yeah, yeah, no, no, that's true.
That's true. That's very true. I was angry for many years. I had the exact same feeling that you had.
It's not fair. That's fucked up. I deserve better. All those things are true.
Also, live in general is just not fair, you know, and you're right. Interesting. Oh, very interesting. And the way to do it is to recognize recognize the situation that you're in.
And if it cannot be changed, you can change yourself. Yeah, true. Like a circle of concern from a Stephen Covey, very interesting circle of influence, circle of concern. Do you feel like, as I was telling before, when we're speaking a little bit, like my mom was a high level executive in the 90s.
So I don't even want to imagine, do you see any progress at all towards your career? Or is that like really stagnating still, although there's a lot of social debate about it? Yeah, I think that there's been incremental progress. So I think that we've since the 90s, certainly we've seen progress across, you know, with a Me Too movement, I would say very much on sort of like the sexual harassment, physical side of things.
That was like a big, you know, a big thing over the last 10 years. So I do think that there's been incremental progress, but, you know, the pay gaps still are very prevalent. I think just the day to day perception of how people are responding to things. So yeah, and I think, you know, and the other fascinating thing is the two other terms that people use to describe women that I don't see them using to describe men are entitled and manipulative.
So when I assert that I believe I should have something or raise a promotion, whatever it is, I'm entitled. When a man does it, they are ambitious. Yeah, okay. When when I am in a situation and I am trying to influence and persuade, I am called manipulative.
A man will be called persuasive or a great negotiator. It is a way, it is a cheap way to for someone to like put their thumb on you and like, shut you up. I was thinking about because language is such a big thing. And I was just thinking like, if that's the same in Belgium, and I'm like, again, like, I'm really not in a position to to to I'm an observer of this.
I'm not a receiver of this. But I think in Belgium, it's a little bit better. I'm not 100% sure I should talk a little bit with my network here. I hope it is.
But yeah, man, fuck. Let's shake it up. Let's shake it off. All right.
I lost lost a last couple of questions because time flew freaking by. We're already at the end. We've talked we've talked about like, you know, you thinking about what's next. And I would like to to end our conversation with your B hack.
If you're willing to share, if you have a B hack, a big hairy. What is that? Oh, big hairy. I read this goal from the Rockefeller's.
Yeah, so it's I'll reiterate a comment I made towards the beginning of our conversation. What I've realized is I have to I have to go I have to go through this like deconditioning process to really fully arrive at the person that I was supposed to be and I want to be the person I am. I know for certain now that if I do the hard work, like my own shadow work, process my issues, my trauma, my wounds, dedicate time to self discovery, self awareness, working on my faults, leaning into my strengths, letting go of what other people want from me and doing what makes me happy. I believe that if I can conquer that, that everything else in my life will fall into place.
And so and I'm not naive. I think it's going to take me my forties to achieve that. It's I think it's going to take me seven to 10 more years of continuing to walk down the path that I'm on. And I'm okay with that.
And that that is my goal. It is not an external goal anymore. It is 100% internal. That's really nice.
That's really nice. The 10 year kind of thing, it made me think of a quote of Bill Gates. He once said people overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can do in 10. So it affected their always already looking at like, it's a 10 year kind of thing.
100% that you're going to hit that. And on that note, Megan, for people at home, like, subscribe, send a comment, share, you know, spread the love. Would be amazing, mom. Thank you for listening again.
And Megan, it was very, very, very nice to meet you. Thank you again for having me and for such an interesting and philosophical conversation. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. It was really good.
I'm actually like, I feel sad like pressing the stuff record.