Lena Dunham

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Order in and keep everyone's attention on the ice. Score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because hockey is for the hungry. Terms apply, product availability varies by Regency app for details. Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We have Lena down with us today.

Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of Girls, best selling author of her memoir, Fame Sick. We are going to get into it with Lena. We are going to talk about Nora Ephron. We're going to talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. We're going to talk about whether or not one should go on Great British Bake Off.

Is it actually worth it? We are going to get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation. And we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest, who has a question for our guest, and wants to speak well behind their back. And we spoke to Natalie Portman.

Colossy actress. Natalie, you know her from the Black Swan, from Rapping on SNL, from Little Indie, called Star Wars. And she and Lena are working on a rom-com together. So let's get Natalie on the horn. I believe we're talking to her from outside of the country.

So, Bonjour, or Bonsoir, Natalie. This episode is brought to you by Zoom. Many of us have been there. The calls were you zone out for one second and miss six key points. The quick check-ins are anything but quick, because here's the thing.

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Visit zoomahead.com to learn more. Get up. How do you say? Hi, Anita. Hi.

Nice to see you. You too. Thanks for talking to us today. First of all, congrats on the summer, Bob. Thank you.

You too. I mean, well, you've been doing it for a while, right? Well, I have, you know, there's really, like, no option with my hair. My hair is kind of... My hair just cuts itself.

Okay, so first of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in with Mark Rufflow, and my wife, Rashida Jones, and many others. She's my wife too, so I'm glad we share that. I'd like to talk about that because we can't share her. She's a political mess. Well, I'd like to get her on the horn and make her pick.

That's fair. That would actually probably be her nightmare, as we called her she'd right now. We're like, me or Natalie? Exactly. She'll be like Ezra.

I do want to talk about your film and working with Lena, but by the way, have you been listening to the Lonely Island to Seth Meyers podcast at all? No, but I've heard anything about it. Highly recommend their episode about your rap. It's so good and it's so funny. It's very in-depth about how it all came together.

They're the best, and that was so fun. It's such a time capsule, too, because it's just a time in the 2000s, so that's its own thing. Birth of YouTube, like so wild. You've got short hair, so exciting. Yeah, post-head shaving.

Wow, that was a grow in, sure. Man, you're not really an actress unless you have one head shaving. You've got to shave your head once. Have you ever shaved a head? No.

I have kind of a small head, so I would be... That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that. Thank you so much. Does my head have a larger...

You're not a terrific piece, normal size. You know the whole theory that the bigger the head, the more successful you are, do you know the theory? Oh, really? No, I don't. At SNL, I'm sure this happened, too, when you were there.

They'll measure your head for prosthetics and stuff like that. And so you get a sense of who has really big heads and supposedly historically the bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck. No way. That's really funny. Now that I brought this up, you're going to start to notice.

You're going to start to notice, like, wow, he has a huge head. That's why he's running a country or whatever. You're going to notice it. That's still funny. But I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful.

Amy. Thank you so much. Maybe I'm a small-headed success. Yeah, maybe you're an outlier. But I do wear a young boy's hat.

I can wear a young man's hat. That's very lucky. Very lucky. So I'm interviewing Lina today. Yes.

And you know, I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews. Like she's been kind of on tour online, really out there. And I've known her for a long time and I'm excited to talk about the different ways that I've known her. I've never known her as a director. I've never worked with her in that way.

And I'm curious what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way. She's the best director. I've one of the best, if not the best, I've worked with. She's so on point. Like the notes she gives are so astute and specific.

And like she pays attention to everything. And she doesn't also hesitate to give compliments to about very specific things, along with like maybe try this different. And she's extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy? Because the amount of like generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness she puts out all day to everyone is like pretty miraculous.

So the very like the environment on set is incredible because everyone's just so happy. Not a surprise to hear that and so nice to hear that. And that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will compliment something you've done. Like that isn't always the case. And I think it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it.

Exactly. And it's specific because a lot of people will be like, oh, good job. Or like that was a really nice take or something. But like I like how you like accented the word in that that was really funny in that line. You know, a very specific thing that she notices or like that face you made in response to Rashida or whatever, like that was great.

Or it's not just in general like you can tell she's really just watching so carefully and sharply and her ideas are so good. And she comes up with like brilliant new lines all the time, you know, the way only great comedy minds like yourself can do. Okay. So do you have a question for our guests today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask her? My question for her is what?

Well, I have one kind of one that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig to get. Okay. So you're thinking about getting a pig. I actually can't and where I but but I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of knowledge about this.

So and I like to hear her talk about pigs. That is a great question because I do enjoy pigs. They are really cute. Yeah. So Lena, what is the best pig?

And I say get the pig. You know what I mean? Even if you're not allowed to have it. So the problem is is that where I rent, there's wild boars. Oh, yeah.

Apparently the wild boars mate with pigs and make a very dangerous hybrid. And so it's illegal in that area. Okay. Because there's some did not expect that to be vicious. It's just hybrid, baby pig.

And I don't want to be responding. I think I'll get kicked out of France. So. Okay. So this is actually that's very responsible parenting that's responsible pig parenting.

And the I have a thousand questions about the wild boars. I mean, it's the main topic of conversation. You know, you never hear about like really nice boars. Well, I think like domesticated boars are pigs, right? I'm not ready to say that.

I don't know. We should as Lena, we should as we know because the bore the big bore is going to come for us in a way that I did not ready for it. Okay. I'm going to ask you the difference between boards and pigs. Natalie, thank you so much for doing this.

We love you. Before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me, have a wonderful day, Amy. And your head may be small, but your, but your, but your heart is large. Te, te, et petite, me, tonkur et cron. The France is going to murder me for that.

They're going to send the horse. They're going to send the horse. You're going to hear ding dong right now. It's going to be four French bores. Language bores.

No, thank you for doing that. It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful. And especially in French, thank you, Natalie. Nice to see you.

Thank you. Yeah, you too. Okay. You too. Bye.

Enjoy the night. Give her a kiss for me. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate First could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart.

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You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings, very subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates. Northbrook, Illinois. Thank you, Lena.

Thank you for being here. It's really good to see you. It's been a long time. I've missed you. Congrats.

You've decided your 40th birthday. I had my 40th birthday. How does it feel to turn the corner? I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40 and seem to have liked it. I think it kind of rules.

Yeah. I like it. I like getting older and much more than being young. You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realize, but there's like a some kind of pressure that's dissipating.

Yeah. And some kind of attention that is known that you know, when we either feel you are supposed to be seeking or getting. It's a huge relief. I said like sometimes it's like you're in the good way, gaining a cloak of invisibility. Yeah.

I was so even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really like marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever. I was so dominated by shoulds and musts and ought tos and now I feel really okay going. That's not really my thing. That's not for me. So glad if it's for you, not for me.

I mean, even just realizing like I don't really like to go to parties. Dude, I don't like to go to parties. I just want to be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed. Well, I want to talk to you about your sleep. Okay.

I have some thoughts. Okay. I would love to get them because we talk. We talk a lot about it in the book. Yeah.

We talk about it. I don't like going to a party. What would be your ideal gathering? Right. What would be my good hangout?

What would you bring it to bring it back? Thank you. I like to hang out on the couch or on bed with one friend, two friends. One or two. Maybe we order some food.

We hang out with some animals. We dab. Then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe like pot around, move one pile of things from one corner to another. Yes. Then read a book and maybe like watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then fall to sleep.

And text them and be like, that was fun. Yes. And be like, I love being your friend. We're still together. But you're very happy that you're like both on your own.

Yes. Totally. My, my nuclear family, and I like when we all, four of us read on different, tufted surfaces near each other. Yeah. And then everyone sort of like puts themselves to bed.

We parallel play and then everyone puts themselves to bed. I mean, I bet you get this a lot. And you talk about it a little bit in your book. Like you present as such an extrovert. Right.

And I relate. I present very extroverted so, but I, from what you've written about, that you are secretly quite introverted. Yes. And it's kind of hard to, you're in an extroverted business. And you like to talk, and you like to have other people talk.

You want to draw that out of other people too. I like, I like to listen. Yeah. You, you love to have a conversation. That is expensive, but it takes a very long time to realize that, especially if you're good at it.

Well, it's interesting that's very beautifully put, but and I've always found you to be exceedingly wise. I have always found you to be, despite your adorable little one, Bob, you are a wise. I was talking about Bob here. You are a very wise lady. It's a mom-centered party.

I mean, I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for 18 hours minimum. It actually leads me into my first question, which is you've been on a press tour. You've been talking nonstop with many people, your book, which is a very personal book. So now you've done a bunch of these. What have you learned about how you like to talk about it?

How can, like, how do you take care of yourself when you talk about it? These are such good questions. I've done this before. I was like, it's a strange thing to write a book about what it costs you to go on press tours and talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it. Maybe the most truthful thing would have been to just drop it like a surprise album and then go, I'll be in my bedroom for six months.

You guys figure it out. But at the same time, I really love, this is going to sound, I really love books, but I really love books and I really love, I feel really lucky that I got to write it and really, and there's issues in it, like, you know, trying to talk about how we perceive and consume female celebrity, how chronic illness, mental health stuff, it feels like things that I'm excited to get to talk about in the right way. But I had to really remind myself before going out, when I was really tap dancing as hard as I could in my 20s, I went into every interview, basically the way that I would have gone into like every play date when I was in second grade, which was, I hope you want to be my friend and I hope you want to invite me back.

My mom always called it, she always, she still does, she'll be like 50% rule because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations and everything. You're really fine. Because I have tried to give 25%. I mean, I really do feel like you're speaking of something really true, not just women, obviously, but a lot of women over deliver, they over deliver in every way. And then they're exhausted and they're better and better.

And of course, I resent, I resent the things I do to myself. It doesn't sound like a detour, but it's not really bad. Okay. I have pet pigs and we're going to talk about it. So quote Lisa Rena's memoir title, you better believe I'm going to talk about it.

You know, I'm going to talk about it. And to quote Wanda Sykes's book, yeah, I said it. Continue. But there is a thing when you're trained, when I got a pig, I realized, okay, this is not like a dog, this is not like a cat. I need to get some, I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this.

And there's a woman named Susan Madgitson, who is the preeminent pig trainer and rescue artist of our time. Excellent. And Susan has a zoom that she does every Monday night called for pig's sake, where all pig owners came in on and asked for questions. Susan, Susan, and her farm Ross Mill Farms, where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted because they thought they were so cute and little and then they are 200 pounds of attitude, pure attitude. But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they just developed something called spoiled SPS, spoiled pigs syndrome.

It is a well-known condition wherein a pig starts to, if you ask your pigs, say you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats. Suddenly you ask them to do anything, they're like, no, that's not the deal that we were in. And then they start to become aggressive, they start to destroy things, they get an attitude because they got spoiled pig syndrome. And I told my brother about it. And he was like, you mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated?

You have the worst treats without the trick. Where's the trick, babe? Where's the trick, babe? There is no trick. And he said also, it's the thing about spoiled pig syndrome is at the end of the day you have a spoiled pig and it's nobody's fault but your own.

That's the worst. I know. Is it always comes back to you? I mean, that I would say that is the one thing about being over 40 is there's just less and less ability to kind of put the blame externally. Like you're like, oh, no, I know better.

Thank God, I know better, but fuck. Now I know better. Okay, it took you eight years to write this book. How did you know when it was done? Really good question.

So my editor Andy Ward is one of my most favorite people. We live for Andy Ward and he's just a good man. He's I don't try to go around using the term girl dad a lot. I don't love it, but he is a girl dad. He's a girl dad to us all and he's a writer dad and he's just the greatest.

And he what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go, okay, there seems to be like enough gossip that maybe people magazine would mention it. Right. We can get that out there. Yeah, we can get that out there. Okay, it's ready.

And he really cares and he really pushed me to, you know, I started the book when I was three months out of rehab and I just thought like, Oh, jot off some of these experiences and then they will have left my body and never have to think about it again. Yeah. And it ended up sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself as like, this isn't going to be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on. If I don't, if I have to tell the story and I also have to understand how I got there and it turns out that takes time. And you know, you've talked about there's so many things in the book there's about there's relationship breakups.

There's tons of stuff about figuring out, like you spoke of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you and against you. There's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with, but I'm also interested in a couple of things, but I'm also interested in the way you speak about like looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older. I was really, I could have read a million pages about you and Nora and we talk about her on this podcast a lot. I never had the pleasure to meet her, but you two would have really had a ball. Thank you for saying that.

I would have loved to have met her. And I guess it's not really a deep question, but it kind of feels like it's like she gave you tips, decorating tips. She did. But that feels very, just like very maternal. One of the ways that she showed care was she had this incredible mental rolodex of here's where you get your bagels and here's where you blow your hair out and here's who should paint your walls, but the guy who paints your walls is different than the guy who paints your floors.

Like giving you all the tools to live well. She said to me, you cannot shoot a movie without this very specific Patagonia lightweight. She's like, and don't get the medium weight, get the lightweight zip puffer cardigan. You know, these things are, she's like, I have been here for a while and I figured out. She's curated her life.

She's curated her life. It was exactly that. And she, and I felt like how lucky might to be the person that she has chosen to give this, all of this incredible wisdom information to. And when she died, I mean, there are hundreds of us. And how she found the time to do this.

She would just see someone and think, I don't know if she thought, you know, they amused me enough that I can stand to have them around her if she just thought they seem like they need it, but she showed up for other women, younger women in this way that was so mind-blowing. And I think part of why she did it was because it also made her feel good. Well, now that you're like, now millennials are getting older and welcome to the club millennials. I'm here to say it's not so bad, but now millennials are turning 40. And they're like, you're becoming a mentor.

You have mentees, I'm sure. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice. When you just try to say, like, I'm here and I'm available. Yeah. Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting.

And I'm curious, because I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do. Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's going to really hurt you and damage, if I'm like, have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out, like a seatbelt, but at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was about it. Also, like to use a great metaphor, not my pick, not my farm. Like, you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some Cody stuff we're talking about.

Like when you see somebody, it's like, what are you going to be like, don't do it? Like, what do you going to say? Do that job, don't take it. Don't date that guy. Like we all have to make these mistakes and nobody listens when you do anyway.

If someone has a question and I can answer it, I'm delighted. And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want and I will be here sharing you on speaking of that. The way you talk about the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a gen X or so my gen grew up with like working girl and you were your sneakers in the subway and like hustle, like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm going to play through the pain. And Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I have fiber my whole gen. I'm really suffering.

I'm totally different. And both showed this like version of like how to get through what you're getting through. But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile. And I know you struggle with that too. What can you say about that?

Or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just through like living life? Well, when I saw five foot two, the Gaga documentary, that was one of the most emotional. I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before. And I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes, they'd be like, well, this one's defective. We want a new one.

I mean, Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't that's right. The approach. And we maybe can can speak about things a little bit, but maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud that one's defective. We want a new one, but the behavior remains the same. And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is, of what of the right way to spend your time of how to prioritize your health versus the work, your health versus a press junket didn't have to be mine.

I remember once before a job them going, so how do you how long before you get sick to usually know that it's going to happen? And I was like, never even occurred to me that I was like, sometimes, I don't know, like, when it starts, I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost like schedule your body's class. Well, it's funny you say that because my brain, like what this book did, is it like, which I think good writing does, is it makes you think about like, wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is what I want to do to extend the conversation is be like, ask people, how do they do their system?

How do they work? So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful. I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only, I mean, it's that part of being young and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on. Like it took me a while to go, oh, just because somebody shows up in show showered in Lululemon sweat clothes with a big cup of coffee. For me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in in a thing in a yeti cup and got to work and was like, Oh, because I like to do this in the morning.

I always go out like I was like, when did you get a blowout? Like, who did it? Who did it? Where did you go? Did you go to drive out?

Did you go to yourself? Did you come to your house? These days, three of your blowout? These are, yeah, there's a question. There's these things where you look, I will never be everybody.

Everybody has it. We all have it. And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing. Like I keep a really psychotic to do list. I have this very specific to do list system that is I won't belabor, but it's taken years for me to find a system that works.

I love my system. When I finish something, I put the trophy emoji next to it for a little treat. Yeah, a little bit of my little treat. And I did a treat. Yeah, I did a treat.

And I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen. And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says, actually I'm not going to do that anymore. That's off the list or whatever.

I do want to talk about your bed. And your bed, you love your bed. I love my bed. I love my bed too. I'm worried about your sleep.

Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl? So this is going to be involved a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital terror. We have a congenital. It's something where we're sleep and death get equated early in childhood.

My father had it. My mother had it. Maybe that's why they fell in love. And they passed it down to my brother and me. And as children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4pm.

So still today, a lot of people have that that they are very stressed about the fact that they were going to sleep. Yeah, it would be, I would start around 3pm to start to say, okay. What time do you think we're going to put pajamas on? What do you think we're going to do right before bed? Then my father would have to tell me, he'd have to take me and I'd say, is it a sock night or is it not a sock night?

Because I was concerned maybe I'll wake up on the night with cold feet. But wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm? Then my, I miss Jan-A-Wise-Burbins. That's the greatest. It's the greatest.

Then I would say, can you tell me a list of things we're going to do tomorrow to look forward to because I thought if I didn't, how things to look forward to, I might just pass away in my sleep. Yeah, I would love to sleep train you. I would love to have a week in your house. I'm going to wear a nurse as usual. Do you know what I'm going to do?

And I'm going to go, and I'm going to go, and I'm going to go, and I'm going to start your business. You're going to say, what kind of socks? I'm going to go, no, no, no. Shut up. If I told you it was actually happening in my bed, the level of the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooching around, the, no, I mean, twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face.

Let's stop at rabbits. Let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits if they can sleep next to the bed. Well, the rabbit's not possible. The thing about rabbits is they're, I don't know the thing about rabbits.

I don't know the thing is that they are crepuscular, which means that they are most awake at dawn and at dusk. I might have an old fashioned version of sleep, but I do think that one of the best things I did for myself is make sleep hygiene as important as other things. And it was very hard because like you, I grew up with a total, like, I wanted to stay up late. I, like, I would have a TV in my room, like staying up late felt like something I was good at. I felt the same way and I had SNL and I was a vampire.

And it was like, I knew my thing when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on Comedy Central at midnight. And so I would, my parents, my bedroom was downstate. I lived in this weird place in Brooklyn that was above a garage, but there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room. And the landlord, JP, had left his, like, single guy. It was like the most modern TV of 1993.

Right. And I would plug in the headphones from, like, American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL. Oh, Lena. So sad. I mean, Comedy is so important.

You're not sad. I mean, that's like an athlete, like, just, you know, shoot hoops in a driveway. I graduated from my school in 2004. Okay. So one thing that I did was at St. Anne's, we had student IDs and the rule was that you could

not come and get tickets to SNL unless you were, was it 16 or 18? I don't, it was, I think it might be 60. It was 60. Yeah. So I was 15 and wanted to go.

Yeah. So I came up with a scheme which was I was going to go to get, act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, you guys got my birthday wrong. And then have them move the year. And they did. And then I held two guilty and I confessed.

That's before I could ever go. I was like, starting to think about, like, this worked too well. Yeah. This was too, I could get addicted to this. And pretty soon I'm going to be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection.

I can't be on this path. You're speaking on, like, the fact that 2001 is 25 years ago is insane. It's insane. There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work. Do you think it is like this?

I mean, it's like people, right? People attach it to this big idea of nostalgia. But what, do you have a sense now of like what it is? Like why people are going back to that show to you to the feeling that that that time? Do you have a sense of why?

You know, it's interesting because I know that a lot, I don't equate my early 20s. And I think when people read the book, they'll understand why with the exception of some very specific moments. I don't equate my early 20s with a sense of jubil-ins and freedom, just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting and it's cozy. When I want to be cozy, I watch Parks and Recreation, whereas my husband calls it Parks and Recreation.

Ooh, that is. Yeah. And once I said, you know, there's no S on the end. You're wrong. And I knew that I, I think maybe I have to do this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day while I was on set.

It was a big thing for me to be like, okay, I'm gonna leave her with you. No, this dog's here. Let's see what happens. And I texted to check in and he said, we're just watching some Parks and Recreation. So she loves John Ralphio.

And I went, okay, that's a good guy. That's a good guy. You can say, I would watch Parks and Recreation to relax. But the idea that, and to me, I'm like, girls is like a stress bomb. Okay, let's talk about this.

I agree. Girls can be a stress bomb. It's a stress bomb. It's a stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like 10 minutes to disseminate a bomb.

Like it's not really, really, really relaxes people. And I think it reminds them of a time. It reminds them of time and their lives and a time in the characters' lives. And a lot of people say to me, people who are on the old on the more 40 end, will go like, I lived off the warmest stop when I was 23 with my two best friends from college. And now one of them is dead and one of them is Republican.

They are looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them. And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends, like that. And also all I ever wanted to make, I always was sad, like I'm never going to be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone want to curl up. But so if it is that for people, I also think there's something, even though the show does have social media, even though there's a conversation in the first episode. And I've never watched girls since we finished.

So I... Really? You've never done a rewatch? I just, I guess I'm always thinking, and I don't do for watch things. I rewatched Parks and Recreation with my kids.

They love it. I would suggest someday you do because... We watch Parks and Recreation. I have. Rewatch girls because it is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself.

Like you just, all the stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away, at least it did for me. And you just remembered the feeling. Like I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win?

Like I couldn't even remember the plot. But I could remember the feeling of making the scenes. Like it was like a body feeling. And it made me feel grateful. It made me feel really grateful.

And I wonder, I would wish that for you. I don't know if you would feel that. I don't feel that. I think, I mean, I love those people and I love that. And there were so many wonderful times, you know, after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like, he was like, he was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun.

And then I read it and didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no, when we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my, like, that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I felt like I could open a door into being those people. And I remember feeling like this.

And it's only to my heart really felt this way because I'm not like a mystical actor in this way. But I just, I felt like my, whatever lean up problems are going away and like the problems of these particular people, which feel sort of like an inconsequential at the end of the day took over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was doing linked, hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it.

Yeah, that was hard. What do you think people who write about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it? At the time, it was like, there was two ends of the spectrum, which is there people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all. Like that we were thought that we were making like, you know, a pressing film about like the concerns of America's media's population and that we just were really missing the mark. Right.

And then there were the people who thought that I was like, so in on the joke that I remember they're being conservative commentators. So we're like, actually, this is a, you know, this is, she's securing woe millennials and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually, something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally seriously and we totally get what's funny about it. People underestimate young women all the time. Yes.

And it was funny. It was like, if they, people didn't like the show, it was my fault. If they did like the show, it was the fault of someone else. It was just, it was and really looking back now, if somebody, people come to me a lot and we'll go like someone saying something mean about me on the internet, why do I do? And I was going, just don't look at it.

Yeah. Just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice. Of course. That's why it's when you were asking like, how you like talking about the book, how you not like talking about the book and then I circled away from that.

I'm going to circle back is sometimes people will ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about you? Or why do you think people had a strong reaction? You're like, it's not really my problem. Not only is it not your problem, it's not your business. How about that?

That's the way people think about you is none of your business. It's not your business. It's not your business. It's truly not. And that is I'm checking into the hotel under the name Nanya Business.

Also a book written by one of the people. When you were writing a character for girls, did you think it was a show about female friendship? I thought yes, I thought it was a show about female friendship, but I was like, it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually until you figure out what's is and isn't your business. It's a thorny torture scape. And yeah, because the thing about women's I'm obsessed with them and part of why I'm obsessed with those is because I'm scared of them because they're too smart.

I see. Do you know what I mean? You might not feel that way. I don't, I don't, but I understand what you mean because it is. I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that complicated people, interesting, complicated people often provide complicated, interesting like relationships.

And there were times when I would watch girls and be like, are they friends? The answer was often no. Yeah. I mean, they were holding on to an idea part of the reason they were friends because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feels. They give them because they get to feel superior or they get to feel like in contrast they're winning or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty person, whatever it is.

And you're still like, you're not, when you're in the 20s, you're not even that far out of high school. You don't even haven't even yet let go of all that stuff. And now this isn't, I have amazing, my female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them, but I also in my, there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other and that can feel very exposing. And the thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female relationships, every, there was just a day where I woke up and went, I haven't had to exchange a really heavy email in a while.

Like I haven't had to remember once having a fight with a girlfriend in, in our 20s and we were like going back and forth in these long points. Now I will not, if someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points. Like I'm not going, I'm not. You're not building the points. And then here are my responses to points.

I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to make notes on your docu-side and send it back to you. That's not what's happening. But we were doing that. And I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outrage and he was like, I don't even know what I mean.

It's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition and you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend if you feel this way. And then, and then moments later everyone's apologizing going, I didn't mean any of that. And it's like, well, that was a lot of energy to expand on this creative writing exercise. Like the kids say, say less. Say less.

Say less. Someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean, have you ever seen that mean where someone's like, um, uh, congrats or sorry that happened to you? I don't know. I'm not trying to read all that. Somebody really long.

Yes. I don't know. I'm trying to read all that. Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that. Every plaza on the set of parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone and she would erase it and then just right now.

And I'd be like, oh, I could say that too. I could say no. Well, there's a big thing which is my brother taught me he's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you. This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch. Your heart tells the story of your health and with the new Apple Watch series 12, you can understand it better than ever.

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iPhone 11 or later required readiness score is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. Heart rate accuracy based on Apple conducted study August 2026. Visit apple.com slash HR accuracy. This episode is brought to you by Marshall's fall fashion is well and truly on the way and Marshall's buyers are hunting down the must have items you deserve for the right price. That means every trip to Marshall's is a chance to find an everyday staple, a show stopping hidden gem or your next obsession with new items arriving every day.

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Learn more at amex.ca slash YAMEX. This episode is brought to you by Cozy. You know that feeling when you walk in a room and everything just works? The sofa, the book shelf, the coffee table, the rug? That feeling is a name.

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It's at cozy.ca that's C-O-Z-E-Y dot C-A and transform your living space today. Cozy, the home of possibilities made easy. It's one of your parents, you talk about it in your book, you have really successful artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about it like in the rooms that are small. I mean, there's like high fashion, there's like hyper intellectualism, there's and there's the art world that they both live in. It can only get smaller if you're like, well the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College where Jenna and I went.

Well, improv contact dance, babe that is wide open. Anybody can get in there. Do you just got to keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time? It's such a purr-fest. Like anything that's like, we have to touch each other, you're like, why?

I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin because I used to do like a column for the Oberlin grape shout out to all you grape writers out there and it was like, I go and try things on campus, you and I thought of them, oh I'm going to do cap aware today and I went and did contact improv and basically my thesis was like perverts, like that was I left because I remember they were like, okay now everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice and everyone's a pants, you know, it was right away. I mean, that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like perverts. Yeah. But before we get off girls, when now we're getting to the weeds, but when Jessa betrayed Hannah, yeah, that was hard. That was hard for a lot of people.

That was hard for Jemima, didn't want to do it. I bet. Jemima was like, don't make me do this. I bet it's a real villain move. But what it allowed us, I think in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet.

And also it was just like the end of a cycle of story. I also think that part of the reason that the way she justified that to herself in the moment is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me. And she might have had Hannah might have this idea. Here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend, your ex boyfriend and they don't.

I don't know. They don't sleep with your ex boyfriend, they don't push you in front of a car and everything else is fair game. And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all these other little ones and the other things because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power. She doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings. The world is happening to her.

Yes. And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world. And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing and just good moving story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessa and Hannah. Like that's who we were caring about. It's really nice.

And it's, you know, Jemima and I have in front of her 11. So it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together. Because often we were just, you know, in the same room at the same party, raising our eyebrows at the same thing and when we got to do those big, chunky emotional scenes together, it was amazing. But I do remember her when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed for the first time. And I could see her panic because it went against every instinct she had about behavior.

And I'd say, I'm not, he's not really my boyfriend. I'm not really going to get mad at you. He's actually just acting acting. And so are we at the end of the day, neither was kiss each other's ex boyfriend. So we're going to be fine.

And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex boyfriend, we'd be fine. And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight. Put on this Patagonia. Like we said, call this man to paint your walls and we're going to be fine. Yeah.

Okay. I want to get your hot takes in a few things. Okay. These are completely random things. But I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about.

Okay. Okay. TikTok. I spent your amazing on TikTok. And thank you.

Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks, my algorithm knows who I am, obviously. And a lot of them are from your bed. Well, what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure, like everything in the culture is changing. But what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like-minded folks and to find people who are, I always see like a woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends.

And I found your friends. And also, I think there's a good comedy there. I think there's good comedy. There's good comedy. There's good educational content.

And, you know, I don't want to be watching someone like sell me a freckle stick. But I do, I mean, my TikTok algorithm when I still had it was Women with Pigs. And I like when there's Australia where sex work is legal, I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences. Yeah. And their money counters.

Yeah. I love that. And I love that. And I love the ASMarnales. Also, I like the women who work at exotic dancing clubs and are at the front and they're, and you don't see the patrons, but you see them deciding who's going to come in.

Yes, I love that too. I love women at work. I love women at work at all. I love, and sometimes it's hard as you'll watch them over time and they start really authentic. And then you see like a little taste of, I mean, this is what I'm talking about, a little taste of fame.

It makes us all sick. It's not. It's very true. Shorter question, Diet Coke, yes or no? Do you know the kids have been calling it fridge six?

Yeah, I love it. I love Diet Coke. I don't think it's an everyday thing. Agree. My mother, it's a treat.

It's a treat. If you do a trick, you get a Diet Coke. When I, my mother, every time she gets a mammogram, and since she was 40, she, every time she gets a mammogram, she gets a New York City hot dog and a Diet Coke. You want to talk in a Diet Coke. So it's her.

Yes. I love the package after a successful mammogram. Meg, Walter. Oh, Mary. Oh, I'm so excited.

Oh, Meg, we love Meg. I'm so excited. I mean, it's funny. I mean, that show, that woman, she's such a funny special person. She is hilarious.

I've had the pleasure of working with her a few times. Also, I'm loving how she's interacting, talking about like fame and sound, something really interesting. At least a favorite current fashion trend. I've always said that my style is like a ratty five-year-old with a credit card. Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

You feel that, right? Like it's like a girl who's like my dad gave me this and she said I can get whatever I want. And then you. Yeah. You just can because so many of the things that also because my parents have good taste when I was a kid a lot was like, you don't want that.

That's not, you don't want that. Sparkly leopard, velour, tunic and matching like warmers. Yes, I do. And now I'm an adult who makes my money and I can never get that right from you. You're very high low in that way.

Like I love that you like you know a ton about really like a esteemed artist and writers and then also you like you don't feel like it's not about it. It's hard because you know, New York kids can sometimes like have access to stuff and then, you know, people feel like they're not allowed to get in the room and you do not give off that vibe. I like, I mean, I love, I love reality television. Yeah. Do you still have reality television?

I don't, but I do. Do you still? No, I was in a housewife's van because it fucks with my nervous system a little bit. I get it. The way people are arguing and misunderstanding each other.

I do enjoy a below deck. I enjoy jobs based, really. We like jobs based programming. And I will say one nice thing about England is there's a lot of shows that you can watch that are unscripted but relaxing. There's a lot of like, would you like to watch this, this very well decorated female historian take you on a tour of the oldest Castle in Wales?

Mary Beard. And, or would we like to, you know, I mean, Great British Bake Offs an example, which is not reality. In my opinion. Well, I mean, I guess it's real. I got asked to go on the Great British Bake Off.

They do like a charity celebrity Bake Off and I went, I don't cook. I don't, I don't cook. I don't clean. Let me tell you how I got that ring. I don't have anything to do with it.

But I thought, okay, like this is a, shortly they can't expect that much of us. They're not calling in, you're not calling in, you know, chefs, they're calling in actors and writers. And they put me on the phone with a producer and said like the first challenge is going to be the crumpet challenge. You're supposed to make a crumpet that expresses who you are. Okay.

So I was like, well, I have British short hair cats. They're gray. I could do a crumpet that had like some great coloring and then do ears on it and then eyes and it could be like my cats as a crumpet and they went, okay, great. So maybe almond butter could be the eyes and you could do some sort of like a raspberry jam for the mouth. Paul obviously does not, is not comfortable with any store bought jams or butter.

So we have a really simple pistachio but a recipe that we could send you and I actually have a great short book on making jam. Wait, what? And I was like, making jam. Making jam. And I said, you know, I've never cooked a crumpet.

I'm like, basics. Do I have to go back to some basics? And I said, well, there's a grateful for the science of baking, which we can send you. Oh, no. And then I started to describe it to Michael, my business, and he's like, have you lost your ever loving mind?

Like, are you about to put in? And then I was going to go over to my friend Rose's sister's house because she bakes and she was like, I actually do have a familiar crumpet recipe that if you try it nine, ten times and then they said to me, um, ovens go on at eight AM and off at six PM and I made some joke and I was like, well, at least you guys don't want me to turn those on. They was like, oh, no, we're not allowed to touch any of the knobs. And I just went, we're out of here. Just beyond this was way beyond anything that I could handle.

Plus the tension of Paul not being happy. Paul's not comfortable with any store about jams. Yeah, those husky eyes shoot and lasers at you because of the jam. Okay. The new moon album, do you love it?

Of course. I love everything that moon attaches. Theme parks. Do you love them? I do not think that I have been to a theme park in adulthood and I, and it may be one of the only things uncomfortable saying I won't do again before I die.

You I agree. I, I respectfully decline. Would you ever have a robot in your house? I think that my, I think that I would effect on to an anthropomorphize the robot too much. Sorry, what was the word you used?

Caffect. Whoa. Tell me if I use it correctly. Incredible. New word alert.

Caffect. Caffect. Tell me what you're seeing. I'm not even into, I'm just gonna. It's a verb that means to invest mental or emotional energy in a person object or idea.

So like, um, anthropomorphize kind of. Yes, I would anthropomorphize the robot. Thank you. Therapists will sometimes say like, if you are projecting on, they'll say like we've had an, we've had an episode of Caffexus. Would you have a robot in your house?

I would. Control it. Until it killed me. Okay. And then, um, you, we've talked about, um, my producer Jenna who you have known for 20 years.

Yes they have. I have a question. What was Jenna like when she was 23? Jenna was cool. Yeah.

And like Jenna still is Jenna was like a cool hot hipster who knew all who lived in Brooklyn and knew all in like the one of one of the, I was still in college and went to go hangout at Jenna's apartment. Mm hmm. On the second floor on Atlantic Avenue kind of correct, right? And it was on the second floor in Atlantic Avenue. She had like, like a rustic boat wheel that they had upcycled and used as like a piece of wall ornamentation and Jenna wore like one of those little, you know, bike messenger hats.

Sure. And I will always remember I'm an embarrassed generator. I Jenna had a girlfriend. I don't want to upsetting Jenna, a girlfriend. And Jenna can always have this. Jenna always can cut this if she wants. She's a boss. Yeah.

And I love that like I used to get to sleep in a room like we had like multiple twin beds. For some reason there was like a room with three twin beds and only two girls at Oberlin. We had a room somehow we got lucky. And so I pushed two of them together to make a queen and then somehow ended up like in my queen with Jenna having to share the single with somebody else. And interesting.

And I was sort of like you guys are the single? The single girlfriend. And I remember going saying some using some insane logic like listen you guys should feel really lucky you have each other. What I have is this queen that I made out of two shitty old mattresses. Hold on. So just to go over

it. Yeah. When you were in general college Jenna was sharing a single with her girlfriend who was a roommate. And you had a queen. Yeah. That I made out of two mattresses. And you were feeling

still victimized by that. Correct. Yeah. I was like guys you know it's like kind of hard to just see sitting here as a single person having to look at all this love. I've been through a lot. And so

and also you might remember that I had to go home from college last year because I have chronic mono. So just think about other people. I shouldn't have done that, Jenna. I'm sorry. Looking back it's deranged behavior. But we only have to make things make sense to us really. That's right.

Okay. And then let's talk about good sex because so we have this thing. Yeah. Good sex is a new movie coming out of Netflix. It's a rom-com that you wrote and directed. Natalie

Parmons spoke to us today. We got a question from Natalie. And who spoke so beautifully about you as a person and as a director said something that I just like I will really think about and take with me which is that she felt very seen by you when she was being directed by you. Of course she felt like you set a tone for not only like everyone on the set but you were paying very close attention to what people were doing. And also just like gave specific feedback when you liked something which I know sounds like but it's not always the case because we are so we have such a bias to talk about what needs to be fixed and we kind of forget to say like oh that was good.

I like that good job. Well it's funny. First thing I'm so tough. Natalie Portman is I mean she was such a big deal to me when I was like you she was just the cool girls cool girl. The thing you want to do is I'm going to do that. Everything. And meeting her was one of the rare moments where I really kind

of got tongue tied and goofy and then she makes you feel really cozy but getting to work with her and getting to know her and getting to know her magic and her friendship with Rashida which has existed for like almost 30 years. She's just she's everything you think she would be but I feel like you know how we were saying like women are so good at things that they've been punished for it. Like they people go well you did that. Well I guess we'll just keep doing that well and we'll lay more on you. Natalie is such a good actress and she's such a good actress even in moments where she doesn't have to be. She exudes it like you have a shot that's like her on a telephoto lens crossing the street

in traffic and she does something interesting with her face. So I was like I think that almost people don't want to say you're the most amazing actress I've ever seen because they feel like it makes them look like go short dorky or they should just be accepting this as reality but every single day I went that's insane what you're doing right now and watching her be goofy is so fun because she is a big goof. She's a goof. Well she had great goofy question for you. I'm so excited. She said and

it's funny because we talked about this we started talking about this. She said what is the best pig to adopt. And she said you have pet pigs. We talked about pigs she wants to know what kind of pig is we got into she's in Paris. I think there's a wild boar situation. There's a lot of

poor situation. I don't want to get political. Yeah. But we and she knows that she's not ready to be a pig parent yet where she is. She's a rabbit parent but she's not ready to be a pig parent.

Got it. She's a really good dog mom too. But yeah but what's the best kind of pig? Yes to adopt. Well in your opinion. Okay so obviously there's so here's something for anyone at home to know if

you're thinking about adopting a pig. Very good. There if someone tells you that you are getting a tea cup pig you are not. If someone tells you you're getting a mini pig you're not. A mini pig is any pig that's under 500 pounds is what is classed as a mini pig. Very important to know. Unlike a farm

style. Which can go to like 1400 pounds. And also pigs unlike dogs like you don't have a sense from their piglet size of how big they're gonna be because they keep growing until they're five. Wow. And they also another fact about pigs not two sets of teeth three sets of teeth. They lose

their teeth twice. And I can say to all those pig teeth for us. It's just rainy day. It's just for a nightmare some kind of nightmare scenario. That's exactly right. Two of the pigs that are in my life

are macheon pigs. Macheon pigs are now actually classed as critically endangered but they are a they are a Chinese species that dates back at least 5,000 years. They look like they're famous for few things. They're amazing mothers. They have huge litters up to like 17 or 18 at a time and they mother them expertly. They look like little elephants. And they don't root a lot and they

don't be forage not root. And they're just chillers. And so if you have space you might think let me go with the smallest pig that we see. But actually a macheon is a great cozy. I think really good beginner a beginner pig. But just 17 or 18 piglets on the way. The other thing is that I've learned is solo pigs

not nice. I know. I know. So animals in general. So animals in general. But a dog seems like they can

get a lot of what they need from like you're my buddy. You're my buddy. I'm going to go out and see my buddies. Yeah pigs can't just because they're very territorial. They can't just like casually have played dates with another pig. It'd be to be in a life together. And when I got my first pig

victor who I thought would be a solo pig, he was talking all day long. And I just thought, I'm trying buddy. But I don't know what you're saying. And so that's why we got cherry. Cherry and Victor. Yeah. And it was an arranged marriage. It was an arranged marriage. We didn't

know how it would go. And what I loved is that the first day that we left him. He went over and kind of started to like get a little aggro with her. And she bit him on the butt as hard as he could from that down. He was like, it's your it's your scene lady. Like he's like a romcom. Yeah, it was a pig

romcom. And now she still spends a lot of time sitting on his head. And she took off her little pig glasses and he was like, you're beautiful. Lena Dunham, Amy Poehler. So lovely to talk to you. I'm so happy

you could come. Thank you for your congratulations on your movie. Congratulations on your book. And you know, I we've known each other for a very long time. It's really, really nice to see you again.

Really nice to see you too. You are a really I mean, it's a well named, I said to someone that was going to talk and it's not like she's good. Thanks, dude. Thank you. Happy fourth year babe. Thanks. Come on

over to the other side. It's so great over here. Thank you so much, Lena Dunham. Just so smart and interesting, such a great discussion with you. And thank you so much for being here. And you know,

Lena is a New York City kid and we're gearing up for New York City Summer and for all you people headed to Broadway. I want to use this polar plunge to remind you that three champions, three comedic giants are on Broadway right now as we speak. And that is on a gas dyer in Shmigadoon. That is Maya Rudolph and O'Merry and that is Rachel D'Rach in the Rocky Horror Picture Show. So get your tickets babe because this kind of event only happens every hundred years when all of these beautiful women are on stage at the same time and aren't we lucky to be alive when that's happening. So

congratulations ladies and congratulations to you if you get a chance to see them and thank you for listening and see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Burman and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite for The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen and Elia Zanaris for Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell and Jenna Weiss-Burman. Original

music by Amy Miles. Hold music. Not what you want to hear when a pipe just burst in your basement is flooding. That's why intact insurance answers two million clean calls per year within 20 seconds. So instead of hearing this lovely track, you'll hear this in seconds. Hello, intact insurance.

In 2002, Ryan Wedding was an Olympic snowboarder at the top of his game. Ryan's style has really gutted in gold. And in less than a minute, it slipped away. But he continued to chase the high. Ryan James Wedding. He controls one of the most violent drug trafficking organizations in this world.

I'm Michelle Shepherd and from CBC Podcasts and The Toronto Star, the most wanted Olympian. The most wanted Olympian, available now on Spotify.