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It is Lena Waits, writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well, and she's the coolest. And we're going to get into how cool she is today. We're going to get into the way she likes to work. We're going to talk about our love of Chicago.
We're going to talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're going to talk about the fact that she is the first black woman to ever win a primetime Emmy in comedy writing. We're going to talk about couple's therapy. We're going to get into it. But before we do that, we always have this section of the show where we speak to somebody who knows our guest, who wants to speak well behind their back, and give me some questions to ask.
And Joining me are the two directors, Tony Award-winning directors of Cats Jellicle Ball, the show that is out on Broadway as we speak. And that Lena is a producer on. And so let's hear from Jaelin Levenston and Bill Roush. Gentlemen, hello. Woo hoo hoo.
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That did happen. Thank you. Thank you. Before we talk about our guests, just talk me through the evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show. Yeah, it was very surreal.
I was there with my mother and my partner, and me and Bill sat by each other, and we had to keep playing musical chairs because we built that family. I have family. We wanted to share the time that we sat by them during the award show. Call of a time. Wait, hold on.
I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time. Well, yeah. Absolutely. This is why you can't bring family to award shows.
Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming to Broadway and seeing Delicaball, can you just explain what it is? It is Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical cats set in the ballroom scene that grew out of Harlem. And so our cats are not cats. They're human beings competing in a competitive ball. And I've never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love, like whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it, everybody has just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Delicaball.
And Jalen, can you explain when you say ballroom what that means? Yeah. So ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, 71, 72. And really the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal LaBeja, who was a trans woman of color, who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom as a culture, much like hip-hop, it has multiple elements.
So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself. It is competition. It is Vogue. It is all of those kind of aesthetic things that we understand about the craft, but it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And the structure is centered around the house and the house and mother and the house and father.
And really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point and they are coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so. It's such a great transition into Lena Waif because her work in her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, trying to make people feel seen and feel included. And as a black queer woman, she is like breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first here. She's the first there.
She's supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show. That's right. How did that come to be? She saw it when we did it downtown.
She saw the off-Broadway production and she flipped over it and she brought Cynthia a revo to see it. And she just let us know if this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room, right on through previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way.
What does a producer on Broadway need to do? Well, they need to find us some money. Exactly. That's a big part of it. Exactly.
The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also Lena is a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about. And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season in her life is like how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Katsu is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself, but yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch, leaving your house and being in a room with strangers as weird as that kink is might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years.
I feel like New York is often leading by example how it feels to be among a lot of people, right? New York is always bustling. And even just the recent Nick's win is a great example of watching people literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together. You can get the high from the Nick's winning every day at Katsu Jokeball. Every day is that exciting, it builds community in that direct way.
Quite untrue. And what does she, what's Lena like as a person? Because I like to speak well behind people's back and I've found Lena to be really, really charming, curious, kind, what's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she? She's so dope, she's so cool.
And this is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool. Yeah, she is. That is true. Like I already put on my outfit today and I just before I came in, I looked at me and I went, oh, fuck, she's crazy.
Like, you cannot beat, she's just so cool. I know, but you're cool too. Oh my God, I'm not fishing, but thank you. Yeah. Also, she's so at ease with herself that it put you on.
So it's so fun to hang out with her. So we have a thing here where we ask to get a question for our guest and you guys have been working with Lena. You know her professionally. We're gonna get into a bunch of different things that she does, but is there anything that you think I should ask her, big, small, silly, important that you'd want to hear her talk about? When did you first know in your soul that you were an artist?
Great. It's such a theater question. Yeah. That is such a theater question. I love it.
Let's all get in a circle. Let's ask each other this. Direct contact. Why would you hit your other back? You sure?
Yeah, love it. One is like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor and you know how cool she is in life. She is 100 times cooler on the dance floor. And I'm always like trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor?
Like when she goes out, she's like, ah, that person's here. I know the party. The dancing is gonna be on 10. So I'll be curious to know what that list is for her. Oh, these are incredible questions.
You guys are such good directors. Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked. And it means a lot. Congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do and the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world.
Robert, back to you. I mean, you're doing really joyful work and we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now. Absolutely. Keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both.
Pleasure to meet you both. Thank you, Amy. You're lovely, Lena. Yeah. Hi guys.
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Visit Subaru.com slash hybrid to learn more. The Subaru Forester hybrid and cross track hybrid. Love goes the extra mile. I was really, really looking forward to that just because we get to hang out. I mean, come on.
I know. We like to do this when we're not on camera. I know. It's been, Lena Wait this year, everybody. Hi.
Very exciting. How's your mic? Good. Good. I'm just like placing it.
I don't have a problem. I was like debating. I'm going to go with the no hat. Yeah, I liked. I mean, I mean everything you wear.
I mean, we're how you take it off. Look, come on. Close that ever. My mom goes to the bar. I don't want to see it right here.
Yeah. I mean, it's like, I want to get into that actually. Because it's kind of, I want to talk to you about your look, your style and also just the fact that like, you're like, my coolest friend. We'll get there. We'll get there.
Okay. So I heard you say something on other podcasts that I love. I've been thinking about it a lot. Jesus. Who knows?
No, but I think it was another podcast or TikTok probably. Okay. Not on there. No, but those are, that's where I get all my information. I hope you and everybody else.
Yeah, I know. You said something that I love, which is if you're afraid that people are going to steal your ideas, you should have more ideas. That is true. I did say that. Probably a podcast.
And it's such a great, it's, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that? Okay. This is a really good way to kick off such a great question. I'm busy.
I got a peebody. Here's the deal. There's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of up and coming writers, if you will, talk about how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copy written? Should I register them with the WGA?
And I always have a very, I guess it's a hot take response, which is I don't believe someone can steal your idea. I love it. I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. Even if we all have the same idea, it's kind of different because it's come from two completely different writers.
There's no way of copying and pasting an idea. And also artists, I believe are oftentimes in the same way. There's a reason why sometimes you see a lot of vampires have it right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here. And it's just because artists are sort of in their silo, they're doing their thing and they kind of decide, oh, I'm going to write this or this is very similar to this thing.
I just don't buy it. Now, what I love about it is it's the opposite of grasping energy, which is like, I have this idea, the idea is so important, it's my one idea. And also, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of it, but so much of it is people in process too. An idea can go so far. And it's just in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career.
You do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you do podcasts, you're in theater, you're in TV. You have this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea and that you're grasping too hard on any one thing. Would you say that's true? Yeah, I think that's really beautifully put.
Thank you for saying that. I received it. I think that I think you're writing people want to protect what they have. And there have been like big cases about people saying this was stolen from this. Yeah, sure.
There's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person. So therefore, the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing and sort of similar. It's sometimes that works for people, but I think for me, I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life.
And I want to be in a different place in my life. And you're never a snob. But you know, you like what you like and you like it passionately and then you make things like you're kind of high low and what you do and what you make. And also what I love about you is you love TV. I'm obsessed with television.
Yeah. I mean, it raised us. It was like you know, I say to parents, I'm on the television. What were you watching when you were like, what was it on TV? You know, it's interesting.
Like I was a kid in the 90s and I think that was a really interesting time for television. I was a lot of sitcoms happening. Yeah. We got perfect strangers. Yes.
You got, okay, Cosby, show a different world, obviously. But also you have stuff like Martin and Lily Single and also in Living Color. And also we had Nick at Night where we could watch the old shows like Dick Van Dyke Show. Like, you know, obviously Mary Tyler Moore shows. Were you watching that?
Mary. You know what's interesting? I didn't really, it's interesting about like certain music you can't hear. Like when you're young jazz doesn't make sense to you. Yes.
You can't hear it. Yes. Yes. And I think with Mary, especially when I started to watch Friends, it was great. It was a great sort of speed to it.
And I think with Mary Tyler Moore, it took me a bit because it was a little bit like jazz. It was kind of slow. Like, I mean, like Chuckles Bice the Dust is one punch line. Like they're like, like, we're gonna hold, it's like edging for comedy. And they're like, we're not giving this to you until the end.
People might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary. And you and I talked about this because we were both working on like comedic legends. I did one about Lucy and Jesse. And Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example. I think of like what you talk about, which is TV that felt like ahead of its time and also just super cozy.
Yeah. What did you, when you got to know her and her work like more, it's so well said. It's like a sound you have to get used to, like a music you have to get used to. Yeah. I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college when I had to sort of watch it.
Because if I studied writing, producing a television, economic college, I did all that. You want to be a TV writer at seven? Yes, I did. How did you know that was a job? Like, we thought people were just like the TV talking.
Like there was a veterinarian and astronaut. No, a fire person. I, you know, I think I just, I would see names and credits. And that's why I see Susan Fills Hill and Debbie Allen. I do their names from their faces and event leave before she was a bit of a leadowser.
And of course I can't know all these women, thank God. But I just saw that show and I want to be a part of this. And also I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, we would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom because that's what a TV was. Yeah. And we were just sitting watch TV and it was very communal.
Yes. And so I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college and I got the box set on VHS and like watch the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being, start with her memoir after all when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole.
It was before you could just like Google somebody. Totally. You had to read about them and her memoir is so well written. I think it may be a brand about it back. But she was a great memoir.
When she talks about being alcoholic, being the daughter of an alcoholic, she talks about losing her son, she's not a suicide, losing her brother, to cancer, losing her little sister, to a suicide. I mean, she, the woman that turned the world on with her smile dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person. And I think, you know, for what she did, for women in comedy, there was something dainty about her, but not precious.
Yes. And I don't think you were one of the descendants of Mary Tyler Moore in terms of some of her. Thanks for saying that. She was very important in my house. My mom, you know, I had a young mom and my mom used to just like love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show.
And it is really interesting when you're a kid, you're paying attention to what your parents are laughing at. Absolutely. And she, Mary Tyler Moore was reminded me of my mom because it was like, she was like, getting more, you know, what is it, getting more flies with honey than, like, she was sweet, but she got her way. And her and Lou Grant, like Nick Offerman and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and Ron had a very similar kind of like, you know, gruff and, you know, but Mary, Mary was like, and she was so, like, she was, you could tell she was genuinely funny and that ensemble on that show was so funny. Yes.
And I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her, to not make it all about her. You know, it's her show. Yeah. But she wants to fight a shine, you know, but. Carol Burnett was like that too.
He's like that too. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And she always talks about wanting people to win and succeed. Yeah. You want to give them the same if you need to.
I love that you were producing that and you mentioned about watching on VHS and I want to talk about VHS because you used to work at Blockbuster. Yes, I did. Okay. Okay. They're going to be listening right now that don't understand how important Blockbuster was.
First of all, what was Blockbuster? Because you were like, it was like a paradise. Okay. I was like, I'm very film and TV. It was everything.
I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff sometimes you do stuff. This is the crazy thing. Now you just go get a couch and hit a button. You have to go.
You have to go hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You have to go up and say, oh, this is somebody returned, you know, saying, uh, this is my return face off. No, and I remember you go for young people listening. You would go. It was a big day.
You get your popcorn. Get your candy. Yeah, you buy it there. Yeah, you would. Yeah.
And you go often with like friends or date and you'd stand up from a giant wall of titles. Yeah. Just the sleeve. You have to be in the late on the Sunday. Like, you all have a.
You got to park and you have the latest dog dog. I got the old one. Okay, cool. You're right. And then you look and you want to get face off and you wouldn't, they wouldn't have it so you'd be like, what other jobs you want to go with stuff.
Okay, cool. You got powder? Okay, what's happened? I don't know. It's just like the most of random.
It's like the most of random. It's like the most of random. It's like the most of the time I got by taste. I was just like, I'll just like rip things. I'm like, I'll rip things.
I'll rip things. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Not in Chicago. Okay. They were like more so just like very obsessed with what they were obsessed with. But it was interesting people coming in there. It was like it was families.
We also get moms saying like, can my son watch this? And you're like, oh, wow. Like, is he into violence and sex? I don't know. We watch a jungle fever.
I don't know. But a lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was. Yeah. I just was like, I depends on how you want to raise your children. To be honest with you.
I don't want to be a part of this conversation. And you got blockbuster. You were so tired of blockbuster. You were so good at being a blockbuster person. You have blockbuster employee.
Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party to the blockbuster employee's party a lot? The one in LA, we definitely got into some trouble. Like when I transferred. We got transferred.
Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, this is insane. That speaks to who I am. I say, look, I want to keep this job. Transfer me to the one in LA.
And they did. And it's like that's a bit an awesome employee. I was the best. I was like on top of it. Of course.
I'm like going through the retirement bid, making sure it's empty. Yeah. Talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Like everyone was popping. And then you get to LA because why do you want to go to LA?
Because you want to be acting and writing and you want to. I went there because it's a semester in LA program through Columbia College, Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec scripts. If you want to do that anymore, you write a script. And the show that already exists.
You can match the voice. And everything is I can never crack some rec. But I did a 30 rock spec and I did a modern family spec. And I love parks and rec, but I just couldn't not. I couldn't grab that voice.
I just sort of couldn't do it. And I don't have a lack of time. What would you kind of do with sitting here apart in your studio apartment trying to like come up like what's the story? What's the story? What's the story?
What's the story? I know what he had a lot of fun with the Tracy thing he was going to be at his birthday party. Because he got me out to LA writing those scripts and stuff like that and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern. Well then you assisted Gina Prince Blythwood. Yes, Blythwood.
She said there's no Ellen. It's like Python. And I was just two years ago. I always tell people to go and do that. It's the most intense.
Okay. It's like think about Python and would. If it would be in front of her. So you were assistant for Gina Prince Blythwood. There you go!
Okay Gina. I love your work. Yes! I'm a little bit of basketball secret, like a B, let's go. Yes.
We had Regina Hall on, we had Viola talking about Woman King. Oh come on, when is Gina getting here? I would love to talk to her. She did she was a little bit of a bone. Oh, what did you learn from her?
Like what did you learn about being a boss from her? Oh my gosh, so much. She's so talented. Okay, so Gina is very cool and I would watch her navigate certain situations and she would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper.
Yeah. And I think also, it's so funny, thinking about Mary Tyler Moore at the top of that documentary. This guy is asking her this very offensive like question, like can a woman have it all? And she would never be married and have a child and have a career. And the thing is, is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful.
Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing and Gina would just never be like frazzled by it. She would just sort of become, respond and show up and let the works be for herself. And so that's what I really learned from her. It's like, don't lose your temper, let the works be for herself. And again, just not really cool.
You talk about Aziz, you talk about getting the part in Master of None, which is where most people met you, but the world kind of got to know you. But you've mentioned Alison Jones. Oh, well. So Alison Jones, who is Alison Jones? She's an iconic casting director.
She's someone who's discovered many talents and I'm one of them. I give Aziz credit for sure, but he, in a really cool way when he was casting the, what we used to be called the Untitled Aziz and Sorry Project, he said I want to just meet with people before I read with them. And he said I want to meet interesting people. And Alison had met with me, you know, like that year earlier that year because she saw something I put on the internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which was called Twenties, which I was not in because again, no desire to be an actor. Why no desire?
I think because, and it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. And that's really all I ever wanted to be. Obviously, yes, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said.
And that was just always what it was. I admire actors are a great deal. I love a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it. And, and all that comes with that.
Because it's a lot. And, and so I, when I wrote the pilot presentation for Twenties, it was a, I was writing a Philly-bailed version of my Twenties and myself and my friends and all that. And so it got a little buzz and people were talking about it and I got to call it Alison Jones went to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. And I was like, wow, that's a casting director.
I don't want to meet with me. I'm not casting anything. And when I went into, I walked into her office, of course, I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks. I walked by the poster for V, I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids. And I'm like, okay, this person.
She's getting 18. She knows when the star walks to her office. So I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And, and what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Alison kind of picked up on my taste being very very in sort of what we talked about, Ma. And we talked about, and Martin, and we talked about all these different things.
And she was like, okay. And then she asked me, had I have any desire to be an actor. And I said, no. And she said, okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure.
And she did. She brought me in for an episode of V, which I completely failed because Julie was driving in the room and really went me in. I was like, oh, no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. What was going on?
You were nervous? I didn't know Julie was going to be in there. And so I was like, what? Right. You watch.
I was like, I was just becoming friends with Julie. I love her voice. I'm very grateful. She's amazing. I was working together.
Okay, but, but what's cool about Alison Jones is that she's like, okay, I'm going to bring that again for the comeback season two. And I'm a person that had the comeback season one on DVD, watch it with the director's commentary, listen to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and picking up our share. So I was studying, okay. That series and all it was because I knew when I was watching the comeback when I was in college in Chicago, still living with my mom, I was like, this is something different and new and this is crazy that she's coming from friends and then he's coming from the city and they're doing this. Totally.
I understood it. Got it. I got that at that moment. And the depiction of television writers in that show. It's like how much I don't like it.
Like what's going on? But also from first, I'm gonna say, Valor, for Elisa, Kudrow too, to also give you a version of what an actress can be an aging actress and what I can look like and how that can feel and it's security. It was crazy. So she called me in first, it was interesting because she was like, you know what the comeback is. And I said, yeah, yeah, I'm obsessed with it.
She was like, okay, well they do it a second season. And I said, okay, what? And she was like, you want to come in and do a press day? There's a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool.
She comes in, luckily, Lisa, nor Michael Patrick came on the room. Thank God. Yeah, lesson learned. Don't be in the room. Don't let them be in there.
So she's put me on tape. I say like, align. And then I got the call that Michael was directing that episode. And that was actually my TV debut. Me being like the reporters for her press conference, whatever.
And so me being on that set was, to me, that was one of those moments, one of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember I had a pitch for my line the way I could say it a little bit. And that's always a tricky thing because I'm like, I don't be that person. I got one line and I have a thought on it.
But Michael Patrick came to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine. He's also kind of, you know, God don't be a little bit too. And he thinks I'll be a little too big for my britches. But he heard it and he said, yeah, it was better. It was better.
And then of course later, Alison was talking to his season. He said, who was interesting people? She said, oh, I think she went away. And that's how I literally went to his home. I literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan.
Yeah, and Alan was right around the park. That's what they were. Master of None with these. I mean, those two. And I just sat with them.
And I think I was prepared for that moment because it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings. Yeah. And so for people that don't know like a staffing meeting when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do like a general meeting. Yeah. You sit and talk about yourself.
And you're like, you know, they've often read a script or it would be a spec or an original. And they talk about that. Talk about your life. And then I got to call the guy. And I got to call the guy to come read with him.
It's so interesting you're talking about writers taking meetings because I think for people that are listening, like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about like, will you be a person that people just want in the room? That's right. That's right. You got to be chill. You got to be laid back.
You got to be a team player. You got to know when to be quiet. You got to know the hierarchy. You got to know the politics. Have you always known how to do that?
You were so naturally good at it. I mean, I know how to play my position. And I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. Right. And I really are there just to your hand.
And you can't. It also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it. That in me, you know what I'm saying? It was never, never that.
Even when I did get handed up to write, obviously a season two of Master of None, we also became the things given up. So literally any of you. I'm very grateful for this black woman. I'm kind of standing right in the comments. Seriously.
I'm all over. Aziz knows up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was a lot of people. Oh, yeah, you wrote on Master of None.
It's the one I didn't write on the show at all. Right. I wasWhen you're in between takes and you're talking and I was like, like, Aziz, I'm putting that down. Okay. Okay, bad.
Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But with season two and him and Allen asked about, how did you come out?
And I told them the story. They were like, okay, that's an episode, we got to do that. Okay, cool. Y'all right? I'm gonna do this Billboard Movie.
And Aziz, on everybody says, if you don't co-write this, we're not doing that episode. I just was feeling like overwhelmed, but I was about to do Ready Player One. Yeah. And I was going to be in London. And I was on my first feature.
Yes. And I didn't want to mess that up. Come on. Come on. digging deep for that story, your story.
Did you have any, like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? Like, I mean, it's such a beautiful episode. And it's so, and it really spoke to so Angela. Oh my God, Angela Bassett, are you kidding me?
Come on, just a moment. I was like, she's gonna say no. I was like, there's no way she comes up to you. You did not matter, you did not matter. Obviously, that's with her.
You know, as he's not both or obsessed with Jack's and Bob and American Dream, I was like, character Catherine, like, but I just was like, she's not gonna do it, bro. I was like, you're nuts. I'm gonna let him mess you up. Cause directly that episode, beautifully can't wait, Lee is an episode. Well, you don't wanna keep.
I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. Yeah. And I think it was so interesting about it, which I think surprised Alan and Aziz. They thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't really embracing my sexuality. But it really was more about what were the neighbors thing.
Not what we got, I think. And that was something that was unique. And one of my favorite moments in the episode is not only like a real life when I was told my mom was gay. She looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, are we're gonna die now.
It's like, these are strangers. Who cares what these other people think. Like, who I am. It doesn't, I don't think being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity.
And I think that's what I'm really trying to do. And that's saying it's trying to show my mother her own child's humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.
I mean, so beautifully done. So recognized for such, like it was recognized for such special work, congratulations on the internet. I mean, beautiful to me. You're so good. You're so cool and relaxed.
You're out there like, like you just like, no nerves. Yo, I mean, look, it's, you never know. You know how this goes. Okay, but you never know. You never know.
And some people, it was, it's interesting. You're relaxing. You relax people. Wow. I appreciate it.
Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean.
I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way, one. Okay. And that was like, those were tough years. You know, competitive years.
Okay. But I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the Chantel. I'll never forget the night before. He was all these parties.
The night before. And Donald said to me, it was very competent and cool about him that he has. He said, you're gonna take the writing one. You're gonna take it. And I was like, I don't know.
He said, no, you got it. And he's like, you got it. And Sterling K Brown was like, you're gonna take it. So I'm getting this weird people are like, you got it. It's yours. You got it.
I'm going like, oh, no. It's yours. I don't know. And then the history that came with it. And you know, and you just had Mindy here, she's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category for Outstanding Writing in the Comedy Series for the Office of the Office.
And I want to say, it's one of the first sketch comedy, which is for Chris Rock Show. And so when they told me when the Academy said, no, you're the first African American woman to be nominated for Outstanding Writing in the Comedy Series for the Primetime, you were, I was like, oh, huh. Okay. And I think that just, it brought a different level of weight to it. And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about Howie Berry winning that Oscar.
And I remember watching and crying. And I was at Chicago, so it was late as hell. It was my head gone to bed. She said, I hope she will have the black woman win. I was like, I know who will see.
And I remember that speech. And she was very emotional. And rightfully so. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. And I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Faleshill, Debbie Allen, and Ellie Bowser, and I was very experienced by all these women that had been in television writers' rooms.
I had influenced me. And also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well. For us to be seen. And just for black women that went to write TV comedy. It's like, and we were all involved.
And you spoke about this too, which is comedy, which also just, you know, I think like any person that feels like they have to, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right. Yeah. Because comedy is like, there's nothing worth it to me. Like, I'm gonna write something very important.
Like, what? I mean, come on. Like, you know, you're like, I'm gonna write a classic sketch. I have a white woman everywhere. Yeah, I'm gonna change some minds.
My content is like, oh! It's like, I'm glad that that episode missed so much to so many people. And you must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes, yes. Really, really, really.
A lot of straight white news, they love it, which is always fascinating to me. I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans. I do, interestingly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But they love Master of None of them, but I already play her one. Yeah, exactly. This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch. Your heart tells the story of your health. And with the new Apple Watch series 12, you can understand it better than ever.
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Learn more at amex.ca slash yamex. What was it like working with C-O-Z-E-Y? Oh my God. We got to interview him for the Coleman Domingo episode. He gave Coleman a question.
And I was saying him like, thanks for giving me all of my memories. Yeah. Thank you for giving me all of the happy childhood. Yeah, everything you've ever done is in my head forever. But what was he like to be directed by him?
He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. And I always say he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's who he is. He's very aware of his, of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does.
And he's really good at disarming people and making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when I auditioned for it. He played one. Thank God. He hired me off a tape.
You know, like I came in, obviously for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director. And I could tell when I walk in the room, I was just very comfortable that she saw something and then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Steven. I think that was a part of how I got in that film. But he just, he took to me.
And it's so funny. There's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And he wanted to, I could tell you to like run off this cliff and you would do it. I said, yep. Yep. That's how much I trusted him.
And you will, you'll follow him to the Earth because you know that it's harder in the right place. You know that he wants to make something classic, something iconic. I feel like you like when there's like a strong leader. I do actually. Yeah.
And I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just sort of has everybody's best interests in mind.
Are you the kind of person if there's no leader, it'll be you? Look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to give you, because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person. Why not?
Like, you know, you know how to do it. I mean, so how do you do it? I mean, so first of all, a lot of my friends are like, oh really, you don't want to control everything. Like a trip, like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans a trip?
I want to sort of curate the experience more so than control it. I'm just going to sit the same thing. Okay, I'm at therapy right now. I got it. This is me creating work.
You're curating. You're curating. But see, I love that because I, that's your love language. Right. I want to make sure we have a good time.
I just want to talk about Shiver. So congratulations on it. Like you're now it's done. Yeah, almost. Like whenever this airs, when this airs, it will have been done.
Wonderful, perfect. And you are going to be like, you will have, you know, successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show, which never happens. I want to park somewhere, go. You can't even remember. This is a good question.
The fact that you don't know off top. Seven or eight. So it tells me everything I want to know is the seven or eight. This is why we have to stop because people are like, you're going to live. You're not knowing is everything I want in life.
Okay, I know Mary's home with seven seasons. First, I was interested in studying with six. Willing Grace was eight seasons. I think, I think we did. This is what happens when you make television.
Also, you forget. This is called menopause. Okay. Okay. I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, very glad.
So fun. Look, nice to go. It's so great. Nice to go. I mean, Parks and Rec had seven seasons.
Wow. So you're very, very telemorial. Okay. One more, one more than you. And yeah, and you guys did eight and, you know, people might not know.
We got a student season, six or 16 episodes. I heard you talk about that where they were like, we love it more and you're like, this is so great. Yeah. But, uh huh. Because people don't understand.
Oh, she's like, I like to. I like to. I like to. I like to. I like to.
Okay. What are we doing? When you do, we used to do 20. We had really uneven seasons like, I went to six seasons, six episodes the first season. And then I think it was.
We could say. 21 and then 24 and then 16. And then at the time we, I think we were in the twenties. And to do 20 episodes of TV as people probably noticed from episode. 14.
Go ahead. See that sexy little goofy little goofy. Cause you, you start an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12 and then you've got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season and in between. You're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know, just what to treat yourself happen though. Great question.
Just cause like that feels like you as audience member, you wonder is that y'all just being tired and landing on something. Great. Iconic or is it like we're, this is something we think could actually really take season four, episode four. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh.
Yeah. That feels about right. Yeah. Cause that, that was something that just, it just stuck and it still, I still get those gifts from people. Like they're just like, treat yourself.
Just up to 2011. Come on. That we still like, we will say it. Like we'll say it. By Allie Yang.
Come on. Allie Yang. That's good one. Congratulations on a incredible run. Thank you so much.
I mean, it does not happen anymore. I know. And it is. That's what he can say. Yeah.
It's so true. And, and you know, like you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it, but you know, we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also like just like the city, it's over the past eight years, the show.
And its relationship to the city has changed. Like, oh, yeah, it's, it's, it's, do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it? I mean, they're mad that it's going away. Yeah.
They're like, what? Just do it forever. I'm like, I'm gonna do that. Uh, it's like, well, this one stuff. But they feel like these characters are their family.
Yeah. And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Wreck went, when you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press and, and I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you because there's a person that watched the entire series, it does feel like a part of you is like not going to be there anymore. Yeah. And so, and like you're going to miss the characters.
You're going to miss the characters. I'm going to miss the people, the writers, you know how that is. It's just, it's family. It becomes a family. You know, it's a, it could be dysfunctional sometimes and it's work.
But you realize how special that is to make something that the world watches and that people care about. I want to do a very quick speed around about Chicago. Coldest you've ever been. Oh my God. Let me tell you something.
Winters, as you know, in Chicago, are just relentless. They're, they, they, they test you. I think it's why I'm so cool. I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing.
First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like, what's the point? It's like accepted. Yeah. Yeah. If no one walks around saying it's cold, like, I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago.
Okay. And on the train, yes, in the cold weather, walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like you don't, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like I don't, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not bothered by you when you're attitude.
Like I've had to walk and snow to get to where I had to go on a trade on a bus, like waiting on a bus. And the colds, don't talk to me, man. Don't do it. Okay. That's concert or best music you've ever seen there.
The best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal I got to do too. Okay. Prince and Whitney. Oh my what?
I know. But here's the deal I would have loved to talk about musicality. Here's the deal with a big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young. I heard you talk about this.
I love this. Say that. Say that. So not, I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot.
Well, you might have also been like, nobody wants to be in what their mom is into, even their coolest mom. The coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great. Your kids is like, they want to be their own person. Maybe was I?
I don't know. Okay. I don't know. And she would play him a lot. So she like makes sense now.
She'd be in the car in the house. And I just was like a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now fast forward, he's coming to Chicago. And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming.
And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody who's music? I don't like. And she said, because you don't understand and you need to understand. And no child of mine is not going to be a fan of friends. I mean, this is really, she's not going to her friend Monique.
They in the front seat, I'm in the back upset. And we're going through like United Center. I don't know. And we pull up and I go to this concert. And I am like baptized in a way by his music.
And I hear it for the first time live. And I'm like, standing with my mom and her friend. They just have the best time. And I'm just in awe. And we have, I still have a t-shirt.
We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the, then you go to record store. I went and bought all the records.
I was like, listen to everything. I was like, OK, I'm just going to watch Purple Ray. But it just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward, I'm in LA.
And he's had this whole, like, you know, a sit at the forum. And for a while, and I would go to those concerts and like listen. And I have a tattoo on the back of my leg now. Like, I have a Prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then when you sit with, I also have her tattooed here on my arm, paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out.
I've been a Whitney girl since her greatest level of all. And I'm not alone in that, you know, going up in the 90s and being born in the 80s. She was it. There was nothing else. There was nothing else.
And I just remember finally, like, being in the same space. And in my love, it was like a comeback. She was coming back. It was her sort of coming back and saying, like, I'm not done yet. I'm not done.
Yes. I'm still here. And I still have a voice. And I still matter. And I didn't understand the significance of that.
You know, as a person, I'm like, oh, come out with new music. What? Oh, man, they didn't get any great sense. It's just she's coming out with some new stuff. And that was really important for me to see that.
For her to say, this is where I am now in my life. And I'm going to be rocking the walk left and Missy Elliott and Ronnie Jerkins and Laura Hill. And these people are who they are without me being who I am. And I remember that album in those videos. And me just feeling really, and I have a t-shirt from that one, which I wear often.
And it's something about those shirts and those. When you go to concerts, like, grab a t-shirt. I know. There's so many concerts. I regret.
Like, one of my new addition was one of my first concerts. Come on, boy. That's why we love you. God, I was. You can come to cook out.
You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. What a really bubby-rigian.
Like, I love go-hoo-cares. But it may like wish I had a t-shirt. I went to a Jackson concert. I was a crowd member of the British nation. I still have that one.
Like, the March shirts, there's something, it's a piece of history. The fact that I can still fit my damn. Well, the March shirts. Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? Because I love it.
Because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else. It's the part of being a lesbian.
Just a mass part. So many parts. So we don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really look at the job.
We're here. We're just shedding that love. I mean, it is. That's so true. It's so true.
It's so true. And like, your style, I love your style. And it's very you. It's really like, it's always changing. It's always interesting.
It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like, it's just like you, as a person you're just never trying to art. It's always cool. Thank you so much. Do you have a style?
You pick all this stuff yourself? Well, it's so funny because Jason Bolden who is Cynthia is like, he's actually her style. He would joke. He would joke. I'm like, I'm just that was sometimes.
Right. So, Rupaul always says everybody's in drag. And I think for me, I want to feel how on the outside, how I feel on this side. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. I always want to feel comfortable.
Me too. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want someone else's comfort to be a priority. When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it?
You know, it's interesting because I'm doing a clothing line right now called I Know Con proximity. With the designer, her name is Knox. And she's from New York. I like the wear. I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am.
and we were friends and we were like, and this is, you know, a part of what she's doing. Like she made this for me and I wore this to a premiere of him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that like every outfit doesn't have to be new or different.
But I think, I sort of, I used to wear those T-shirts, but it was the whole time people were in T-shirts with like a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke. It was like, that was the thing I was doing so much. I was like, Lord help me, so glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage, like stuff, like vintage shirts and things like that and meant something to me.
And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, make a little bit of money. Okay, cool, cool designer thing here. And there's a thing where you want the designer brand there, right there, so people know you were in Valentino. Then you get old and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on.
So let it be, you know, she did this quite luxury. Yes. The white t-shirt cost about her. I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida. I'm like, where does this go?
And she's like, she's right now, she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen. Oh, okay. Everything is gigantic. She is. Oh my God.
Everything, she, she walks in. I'm like, this is what we're doing now. It looks incredible. Everything is incredible. It's so chic and just easy.
Like I took a lot to try and say, okay, the little plane, little jacket, little bit of this little. I steal a little bit of Rashida. I'm like, okay, Rashida. But I think style is not unlike your voice. So you have to try different things, find it over time.
But I do think my queerness does a lindest self to my style. And a little bit part of this because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to press dudes. Right. Or we're leaving and press like women.
I'm just sort of like, what looks good to me? Well, this is kind of a segue, which is you're the producer right now on a show that is like all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it is a show called Jell-Kelvall. This is true. And that is the Jell-Kelvall.
You are a producer on it. She has one of the co-producer's. And talk about watching in real time people, like figuring out like how I want to be in the world. Not only how I want to dress, but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist. Like how did you get involved in working with that show?
When did you foresee it? And why did you want to be part of it? Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see that pack. And when it was off-Broadway.
And she called and she said, you got to see the show. You got to come down. And I bet people might be a little intimidated when Cynthia at Revos in the audience. That's a tough, that would be like. I think they were very excited to show off their skills.
But she was there. She gets a judge over there at pack. And so she called me. She was like, there's something that's a level of intensity of somebody's voice where they're like, now you've come. And so I came, saw and was blown away and said, OK, well, this should transfer to Broadway.
I hope if it does, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing. I think because there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows. And there's sort of requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us.
We need to be a part of this. Because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. This amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers to this. Yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this.
And speaking of Blackbuster, I watched Paris is Burning. The documentary because it was on the shelf. And I saw it one day and I said, I'm going to watch this doc. And I never stopped watching it. I can't re-watching it again and again and again.
And I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people, these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. People can watch Paris is Burning. They're just joke, joke, joke.
They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious. And I mean, that to me is like a real love language. So when people like tease each other. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, the white version is so shady. You know what I'm saying? It's like we're going to be in fear. So we're talking trash. And so I just loved that.
Paris is Burning really obviously helps to influence, you know, cast a joke about it and also influence polls and things like that. But to see Juni LaBeja, who was in the documentary, a lot of people in the documentary has passed away for him to be on that stage every night. And being able to feel that love and receive it, I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice, obviously on Broadway, obviously once on Off-Broadway. And it's something that just brings me so much joy.
Well, we got to talk to the directors. Oh, come on. The Tony Award-winning director. That's what they are now. They're the best.
And we got to talk well behind your back with them. Oh my goodness. Because they're too? They never do well. First of all, I was very stressed.
I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony Award. Well, come on. I know that a lot of people in those seats. Yeah. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody.
And I was like, no, you don't. Well, it's your night. Yeah. But they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you and Cynthia like used your currency to get the show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that meant so much to them.
And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena, like you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support. And like you like what you like. And when you like something you really want people to know about it, like you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people. And you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time.
It's awesome. And they love working with you. And they had a couple questions for you. Oh my goodness. And everybody in ivory.
OK. And so Jaylin's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor? Or what kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited? That makes you think this is going to be a good party. Oh, like who do I see them on the dance floor is going to be a good time?
You know what I mean? I'm not even looking for, I might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person, a kind of party. You know what's interesting? Because I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center. I know because you're cool.
So you just don't need to be in the center. I know. I know that's a cool people do. They dance on the side. They dance on the side.
I want to sign up, but it's got you out of the middle. I know. Oh, oh, oh. They're so barely moving. Look at you.
Barely. I get it. You mean you're not break dancing in the middle. Like the person that's like up and above and go for it. But you know what though?
I fuck with those people. Yeah, yeah. You need that person. Party pump. You need to be honest.
I'll tell you what I can bring to a party. What's that? I'll be the first one on the dance floor. Yeah, you will. Because you're not.
You don't have any cards on the dance floor. I don't care. If somebody's got to start it and nobody wants to, and we've been in like industry pressure, it's like, there's a great DJ. Nobody's dancing. We got to start this.
Like, what are we going to talk to each other? Like, enough of that. Let's go. And I will, I'll sacrifice myself and be number one. That's hopefully a friend.
But it's really cool if I love to read a bossy pants. I love that section about you. And Tina says, like, what A.B. got in there? I was like, oh, things have changed.
Things are going to be different around here. Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNO. And I think that's so reflection of you at a party. Like, you're not afraid to be the first. Well, I'll be embarrassed.
I don't care. Which is what makes you amazing. But who do you like to see? What type of person? What type of person?
Or like, is there a friend that you're like, OK, they're here. You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. Like, I'm not skilled. You're not taught.
We just going off of the vibes. Who's a good dancer? Well, a lot of the cats are cats. Like, we have party. And I'm like, oh, yeah.
I'm not even doing a two step over here. I'm going to have to let y'all do what you're doing. Like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens are doing a different kind of vibe. Because they know choreography. That's the thing.
Like dancers who have performers. I really love watching them. Because there's an art to it. There's something to it. I was saying earlier, it's like magic.
It is. I like watching people dance. That's why I don't want to get in the way. I don't want to just catch up by being a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance.
Because I can watch them all night. OK, and the last question today is, what are you? Because I know you love. You're like a culture vulture. You keep up.
What right now are you watching, listening to? What are you into? Give me some wrecks. Whee! It could be a video that you can't stop watching.
It could be. So much. I'm like, let's have it be funny. OK? I can't watch anymore.
I know what you're going to say. I know what you're going to say. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
You're going to have a baby reindeer. OK? No, sorry. I know I like to do our shit. I know.
I know. Oh, god. OK. Damn. Are you a couple of therapy girl?
OK, couple of therapy. Let's talk about a couple of these in a season. OK? OK? OK.
First of all, who do we want to talk? What? I'll take it away from this specific couple. And just say in general, what is so good about couple of therapies? I think.
Is that you watch it and you're like, I've got these two bits. You think you're always moving a little wrong? Every time. Oh, my gosh. I am anyway.
It's like, I know what this problem is. This person, this person, this person, you think you're good. I like therapy. They're here for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking.
You know, like, we don't know anyone's shit. I'm not smart. Like, I'm not smart. I'm not smart. I don't know about she has a PhD.
Exactly. I love being proven wrong. And then we're like, that guy's not right for her. And she's too whatever. And then it's like, you're wrong.
Like, you're not. You don't know. And the way in which you watch how different everybody's communication styles are very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree.
Whether you're in a relationship or not. Absolutely right. OK? You learn so much about yourself. You learn so much.
And I think. And those couples are awesome for participating in it. Yeah. Truly. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas.
That you should come down to our own episode for. Yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope. Ever.
And you see how that is playing out in their relationship. And my hope is, and I'm also, you know, I've been in Therapides. I'm a Therapides professional. I'm a Therapides professional. Sorry about it.
Relax. But I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, it sounds very simple and easy to understand. But you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this?
Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that? And it's all because I didn't have my mommy and I have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn that for myself as an adult or my partner has an abandonment wound.
And so when I apply it or I leave without saying goodbye, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so that's why I think learning in therapy, that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people want to protect that. Or I don't want to tell you this hard thing. And the thing I learned too is like truth does no harm.
And so I've had to get really honest with people I love or say like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of. I'm embarrassed by it. But I want to say it out loud and see what you stand, not to test you to see if you'll stay. But rather so you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay. It's that's so well said.
And you just said something like, I want you to a lot to just get scripting for how to say things. Wow. That's good. Because sometimes I break the window and there's a door right next to it that's open. Like, you want to get something out.
But the way you say it, it's good practice. It's just what you just said. Like, hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel about it. And then what's the gentle way into the vulnerability is like, just practice. Because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be either shocking or like you said, like we withdraw or we like over it's humans are fascinating.
Really? And I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this case, it's single women who have a certain age. And I'm like, I'm single and only I want a relationship as if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier. And it's so funny because I always think that is not how a relationship feels.
Like that's not how that goes. Like if you expect somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun or romance, like, no, it's like imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah, a real true relationship makes you confront the stuff in yourself. You want to run away from it. Totally.
We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. We're fascinated with the like young people, young love, people falling in love, which is so into it. And then everybody gets there. And then we never ask them another question again. We never talk to people who've been married for 10 years and like, how is it going?
What's going on? Whatever. We're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle in between is like, nobody even talks about it. Nobody asks any questions about it.
And it's the same way with like, I'm finding the same way with like middle age. Like people are really fascinated with like, you know, young people on the rise. And they're fascinated with like the grove toss of being a legend. And they're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah.
There's a lot of things happening. That's true. Yeah. I mean, I'm 42. And so I think.
No, maybe a little tiny, maybe. What? 42. So cute. OK.
No, 42. 42. 42 is interesting. It's interesting. I feel it.
I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm a child with my choice. I have no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying in terms of the falling, the newness of something.
I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated. We won't fantasize the MeCute. Oh, yeah. And the MeCute is cool. It's great.
But I think what I'm learning so much is the comfortable in the boredom. Yes. Comfortable in the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment?
Like what is contentment? Like. Because the movie area breeds contempt. That's right. And oof.
We got to blame. We'll wrap it up by saying, couple of therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game where you're watching after many seasons and then something like a person will say something and their partner will be like, Oh, well, otherwise you're like, and there it is. Couple of therapy is so good. It's just great. Like everybody's like, that's my big thing.
I'm trying to think of everybody. Just watch as much therapy as I can. I know. And like music, I'm trying to think I'm on my phone, but like, please listen to Tim's TMS, amazing singer. Love Tim's.
She's great. That Lauren Hill tribute phenomenal. Oh, look. Lauren has to get up there. Lauren say, I can't let you I'll be a part of it.
I know. One album, but technically people sleep on on plug go listen to Lauren Hill unplugged MTV to do that. I love that album. Her voice is like scratchy as she's real. She's done through some stuff.
Yeah, it's like the album post success. Yeah, yeah. Tell you about some shit. God, I would have. I wish I wish there was like 10 more albums for her.
So here's the deal. You can't demand labor. We got here. I know, I'm pretty late for another hangout. I was supposed to have it they like, what would you do anyway?
Classic. That's what we do. Thank you for coming. I love you. Thank you so much.
Lena Wait, that was so fun. I could have talked to you forever and we talked about so many great things. I just want to remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of broke into the scene for us anyway, in a show called Fame, where she plays this incredible dance teacher, and Debbie herself as a choreographer and actress and producer, and she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she did a million episodes of A Different World.
You can catch her talking to Lena Waith on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from The Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you.
Thank you for being so talented and so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena. And thanks everybody. We'll see you soon. Bye.
You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for the show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Burman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paper Kite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Elia Zanaris. For Paper Kite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Burman.
Original music by Amy Miles.