Lonely Souls

Diane, it's 407 PM. Welcome to another episode of Twin Peaks Speaks. We're going to be talking about Lonely Souls, which is... Episode 7 of Season 2.

And maybe the reveal? The reveal if you killed Laura Palmer? Depending on who you ask? You ask.

Kind of. If you ask me, Madalston, I think it's the reveal. If you ask our guest, we're turning to be here with us today on this very special occasion of Is it the reveal or is it not the reveal? Scott, Scott, what do you think?

I am certain in my heart that that is the reveal, although Just because a mystery is revealed doesn't mean it doesn't open up more mysteries and more questions. That is a very diplomatic answer. But I'm going to take it as two against one, actually. Okay, but the whole message boards are behind me on this one, I think.

The message boards which have in the past insinuated, oh, it must be a twin swap. Oh, it must be kind of travel. Oh, it must be vampires. So, you know, I'm not going to put much stock in them.

Let's just briefly cover the ground here. You wanted to come back for the reveal. I was thinking that you would come back for arbitrary law because that's when things become very explicit. That's when exposition happens.

Yes. But then I talked to you, Matt, earlier this week, and you said that you thought lonely souls was the reveal. I checked with you, Scott, you agreed. My mom kind of seemed to think the same thing.

And then I went on the message boards after we kind of already arranged to do this week as a reveal. And the jury is out. This episode was promoted as like the Who Killed or a Palmer episode, the reveal episode leading up to it. That's what ABC was calling it.

And then the message boards, which had previously pegged Leeland as suspect number one for many weeks in a row, suddenly, not suddenly, but their understanding of what happens in this episode, which we'll get into in a minute, is that Bob has multiple hosts. And now he's inhabiting Leeland, but on the night of Lord's death, potentially been inhabiting another body. Okay. Scott, I'm interested to hear what your reaction at the time was to this episode.

And of course, like now I can't for life mean, remember how I felt when I first watched it and whether or not I felt like, oh, that's definitely the answer. But I feel like with Mike and Mike Steele at the end of the previous episode, they go a long way into kind of pushing for this one host at a time kind of explanation. But that could just be that Mike has grown fond of Philip Gerard. So I don't know.

I mean, it maybe just seems to me like the board doesn't want the mystery to be solved, and I totally get that. But I don't know. What was your reaction when this episode comes and it's being hyped up in all the ads like, this is the answer this week? Well, I was beyond looking forward to it.

I'm very excited to watch it. It was, you know, event TV for that time for me. I had inklings a couple times that it might have been Leeland, but he wasn't like, if I had to say one person, that was the one I thought he's the one that did it. I really didn't think that that was a serious contender for the possible killer.

And as far as the jumping from body to body, I don't know. I didn't see the way, at least that Mike described the way he and Bob operate. And what we've been told about the mythology of those that realm of Twin Peaks is, it seems like there's one person that is a host to those spirits. And they go back and forth and take control of them or not take control of them, that sort of thing.

So, I mean, it is possible that Bob decided different because he's more pure evil that he could have been in multiple bodies. That didn't occur to me at the time. I took it for what they presented just in the show that it was Leeland and Bob was the puppet master, basically. So, we got a lot to cover, but let's back away from what is the penultimate scene of the episode, I guess.

I'm sure we'll have plenty to say about how that actually plays out. But I guess there are some lighter moments in this episode, which is, I mean, I've worn my mom ahead of time about this one, given that she stopped watching the episode where Bob crawls over the couch. I'm just like, as I was watching for this episode of the podcast, I was just like, you know, I think that a warning might be a nice thing to do because it gets really creepy. So, I appreciate that there are light parts to balance it out.

What's actually what comes to mind is your favorite part of this episode outside of the reveal build up at the end. Because I know my answer. Okay, well, I just don't want to. No, no, no.

I feel like I'm struggling to think of light moments. We see the best friends and twid peeks back together again, Shelley and Norma, which I was relieved to see. So, that might be my favorite later moment. It's very sad and sweet that scene.

It seems like they brushed past it last week or in the last episode where Shelley's like, I'm quitting. We don't see that, but I forgot that the scene feels in that gap. Shelley can always come back to the double or any time and then like a single tear in my eye. I think the music and the performances are just spot on and not seen.

It's like one of the most touching character moments that the show has had all the way to this point. Absolutely. Do you have a favorite scene outside of the reveal, Scott? That would be my scene, but it would, well, it's still the same scene than when Nadine and the get show up.

So, I think that whole scene overall is the highlight of the episode. We're going to talk about that one. I'm special. I actually really love what I want to touch on is how the episode opens, which is just the lineup of the shares posse and the one-arm man in the station.

Because I just, I love the stand-up moment of that scene for me is Gordon Cole just giving a little nod to the one-arm man to Mike and like nodding in return. And just that like within a day of Cole arriving, like he's seeing that there's a man who's possessed by an album, Netherlands Spirit, and they have a mutual respect for one another. And that's just established without a word basically. And then take care of Mike.

Like it's just like, I gotta go to Ben. Like it's just so natural. And I like, I mean this episode is directed by David. And so I like that he gets out from in front of the camera as soon as possible as well.

It's a very restrained way to start what's going to be like one of the most eventful episodes of the whole series, I guess. Yeah, I felt like that scene had a kind of reservoir dog-esque feel to it. Like I would totally watch an episode where like that little posse was out on a mission together. Yeah, vigilante justice.

They would probably have to put Hayward in there too, because he can't seem to not tag along. He's in fact at the very next scene at the great Northern just sitting there and was like, yeah, he is like literally everywhere. He's so omnipresent in this series. We gotta do some police business.

I better call a doctor just in case. You never know. Excuse me. Scott, do you have any ideas to the choices?

I guess sailors with red rubber balls? I think that it's because it makes that scene very disorienting because you start up close on Mike's face and then you're hearing that constant sound and you don't know is that like construction is there popcorn popping? Or that's what I thought was popcorn. Yay!

But yeah, it's just a very odd random thing. And that's obviously a pure lynch invention type of thing. Somehow it's fleet week in Twin Peaks, which is nowhere near the ocean. The message boards put a lot of brain power into figuring out why the Navy was there and how Mr.

Tajramore's credentials were verified. Those were like issues number one and number two on the message board this week. Oh man, it's really on the case, really on the ball this week in the message board. Ben Horn, which is the big honking cigar in the corner of his mouth, I love pretty much everything Bamer does in this episode because this has been his most cartoon mustache twirling.

Cartoon villain pathetic, kind of vibe. He's coming in there as like a freight train and the smoke from the engine is his big old cigar. He just roars right in there freaking that out. We get a scene with Audrey having actual fully formed lines, finally, between Audrey and her father.

It's been a long minute. It's been a long minute since Sherland's had a lot to do other than be in peril or immediately recovering. What do you think of the scene actually? What do you think of like basically, I mean, Lee even did it.

So this is all like a big red airing move to finally dig into Ben's relationship with Laura. Yeah, totally. It's first of all, Audrey and that flannel. That is a look.

I knew we were going to touch on that look. I also have an anti look I want to get to. Okay, we'll talk about the anti look. But definitely like seeing Audrey kind of like back in her groove.

Like she's obviously like still pretty raw and like emotional, but she's taking control of the situation. And I think this kind of makes me feel a little bit better about what we saw Audrey, how we saw Audrey kind of avoid confrontation with Ben in One Eye Jax because now that they're back in Twin Peaks, she's able to kind of look at the end of the scene. She's able to kind of leverage what she knows in a way that's maybe more powerful than it would have been had she confronted him in One Eye Jax and kind of had to rely on her father to get her out of One Eye Jax. True.

Number one question in the scene, why does Ben have a picture of Laura on his desk and why has no one commented on that strange thing before? Yeah, you have to wonder how long that's been there and how many people like if the maid sees that when she goes by and cleans it. Yeah, just dusting off this picture of like a dead girl. Yeah, kind of off putting.

I mean, the Palmer's and them are really good family friends. They don't know. Like they hang out with the Haywords, but like Ben and Leeland are friends, but like the Palmer's and the horns are not friends. Well, I mean, Johnny Horn, right?

That's a forgotten plot line was the time. We remember back though in season one when Audrey was pleading with Ben to please let me be your daughter again and give him a hug and all that stuff. When they were embracing she looked down at his desk and there was a picture of what looked like a ski trip that was Laura and Audrey together. So they had gone together on the trip as a family before.

That's true. Interesting. We may never know exactly to what extent the horns and the Palmer's vacation in Aspen, but it was definitely a strange turn for Ben's character though. Like all of a sudden, you know, Audrey says did you sleep with her and then he says I loved her.

We really haven't gotten that vibe from him thus far. And I don't know if that's just like an easier thing to tell Audrey perhaps, but I mean she's able to kind of ascertain very quickly that he is definitely has sex with Laura prior to her death. And is the disgust on Cheryl in Space. That scene is very on the edge of Melodrama, I think they both play it very well.

And yeah, it's finally like all the one I Jackson nonsense was worth something. Like Audrey has actual information on her father, an admission of guilt and an admission of something to do with what led up to Laura's death. So successful mystery solving on Audrey's part. Let's talk about Harold and the path of destruction that Donna and James have a lot.

I actually forgot that this is how Harold's story ends. Really? And yeah, and was well, Harold's in Firewalk with me. That's not a huge spoiler.

But most recently my memory was like, oh right Harold's a character. It's one, again, a thing that Twin Peaks does that I think few other television shows at the time would dare to do, which is just like to depict the way Harold died. And yeah, like I was watching this episode at like midnight on a Saturday last week. And after like a long day I was like, oh right I should watch the episode because we're going to record soon and whatever.

I was not like, I was in an emotionally raw state that weekend. And so to start, basically start the episode with that was a little bit of a little bit like diving straight into cold water. Like oh, right. And then five seconds later I'm like, damn it Donna.

Really sad. Goodbye young Dustin Hoffman. Right? Okay, I posted that picture and your mom agreed with me.

Yes, right. I agree too. He is a very similar facial structure. Thank you.

I mean, I said it. I just said it. So I'm clearly in agreement too. But it's sad to see him go because I don't know how much more he could have contributed to the story.

But as a character, I mean, it was not someone that you wanted to see harm come to for sure. Yeah, definitely. But at the same time like how his storyline continued, like Hawk would have gotten a warrant for his place and it just would have gotten, it would have dragged on. Whereas this episode I think is tying up a lot of the storylines I were introduced early on in season two, like when I jacks Harold.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. But finally, now the cops have the diary. But for that to happen, the mystery twins basically push someone to suicide.

And again, they could have gotten the diary before. They know Harold can't leave his house. Just take the diary out of the house. That's all you have to do.

And this is jumping ahead a little bit. I just want to get the taste of Donna and James out of the mouth as quickly as possible. But showing really no remorse, especially James. Especially James is rationalizing at the Roadhouse later on the episode.

Donna, frankly, doesn't seem all that shook up to begin with, but has like, have you heard about Harold? And then James is like, no, you were doing what was right to solve the mystery of who killed your friend. Your friend, by the way, who yelled at the gravestone of, like, they are so bad. They're so unbelievably bad.

They're the worst people in Twin Peaks. Your enjoyment of Donna and James has really been on a spiral since I guested with you last time. Yeah. Can you blame us?

Like, I don't think we're going into this with the wrong mindset. Are we actually? You know, I never saw them as bad characters when I watched it before and watched it for many years. But over the last maybe five, ten years of watching it, I see exactly all the problems that people have with those two characters and how they are the weakest links of the show.

Yeah. I think the show is fully aware of that too. Because they go right from being like, oh man, it's serious a bummer that this guy we knew for four days. Within that time, span became so distraught that he took his own life to Donna mouthing along the words to rocket back into my heart to James.

Like a cute sea man around, I'm just like, are you kidding me? Just moving right along. Are they possessed by evil spirits from the woods? Is that something that we need to discuss a possibility of?

I could say that. I don't know if they're interesting enough for that to happen. The spirit just passed right over them because they don't have enough of a crazy audience. The spirit is like, I'm going to have to sing along to James's guitar.

I don't know. I'm done. Okay, but while we're on that scene, I want to point out that like Donna's eyebrows are going downhill really quickly. This is the anti look I was talking about.

What the hell is up with the cowgirl jacket? Yeah. Oh my God. Also, Donna's hair has definitely like grown like way too much for the two weeks.

It's been since. That's true. It's Laura's death. This is the- Never show or go to get the weaves in between episodes.

Now I want to see that. I want to see Donna like rediscovering herself. She's single white female and Laura and she's like, I got half along here now. Yeah, it's only a matter of time until she goes like, platinum blonde or whatever.

That was going to be season three. Right, right. While we're on the subject of looks, do you have any other looks to stand out in this episode? We saw kind of another look on Audrey where she was wearing the black sweater and then the pink skirt, which was kind of a reverse of like her last real look that we saw, which was the pink sweater.

Black skirt, black tights. I think that was- She definitely seems like they're moving into a more mature type of look. Definitely. Audrey's been through some serious shit now.

Yeah. She's a lot more mature than the mystery twins at this point. Definitely, definitely. You're not fooling anybody with that leather jacket jeans.

Cool. Oh man. Oh boy. We got a ton to discuss it and I'm glad.

Should we move on to the other memory of Team Mystery Teens? Oh, okay. Who I don't think is even a teen. I forgot that she has an apartment and a job in Missoula.

Right. She's not like missing high school right now. She's like taking leave from her job. Is she a teen?

No, most present question. I mean, Maddie could be 19 and have graduated from high school and then just gotten a job in Missoula maybe. I forget. But Maddie has mentioned in the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer many times and there's references to her being a few years older than Laura.

So my idea is that Maddie is probably 21. Okay. That would be my guess. Yeah, I think someone on the board was saying that she's four years older and there's a lot of interesting on the board mingling of the Secret Diary of Laura Palmer and the show and a lot of- no one's really differentiating where quote unquote can and comes from at that point and someone suggests making another board specifically for the Diary.

Huh, interesting. Wow. Yeah, because that would truly have led to higher quality discussion. Should be so negative on the board.

Yeah, if okay, this color is saying a different light for me though because if I'm Maddie and I'm 21, I'm not going to hang out with the two 17 year olds. No. Like no, they're clearly way less mature. And then like James is 17.

She's 21. It's a little bop. It's a little statutory. Yeah.

Yeah. Bobby and Shelley's relationship is perfect. I won't. I won't hear any any any drawbacks.

Negative about it. Scott, are you team Bobby Shelley? Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

They are the most besides Ed and Norma. I think Bobby and Shelley are the number one company. And Norma, you say? Yes.

Let's talk about Bobby, Shelley and Leo and Mike. Mike, Mike's back. Mike. Oh, Mike.

Snake is back. Snake is back. Yeah. So my first thought is that Leo might not be a, might not be, you know, intentionally or intentionally spilling the beans on the location of, you know, his little secret in tape.

But maybe he's just expressing his love for the pop duo from Portland, New Shoes. Maybe. Maybe he's just thinking about their really, really great songs. Yeah, just anticipating that.

Yeah. Point of the return. Great song. Leo loved it.

But Eric DeRay really bringing it to this performance. Although I was watching this again while I was eating breakfast this morning and Leo like spitting up. It's very hard to watch. It's pretty gross.

Yeah, spitting in the oatmeal residue and baby food is pretty masterful work on his part. I'm just like the way he can like look but like not look at the camera. It's really good. He's doing a lot with very little and I respect that compared to a lot of the performances on the show that I love but that have a very different take on acting.

Yeah, he'll say a very different take on it. Poor, like we see some friction between Bob and Shelley which kills me. Yeah, no. She's like how are we going to live and then Bob is all of a sudden like I'm still in high school.

I'm missing Econ right now. He has not been to school in weeks. Yeah. And she has like $42 for the month for her and Leo to get food which is not very encouraging.

No. And she has a quitter job at the diner which I thought she already did but apparently had not done. She just made mention when the one guy was showing them the equipment or whatever she's like, I'm going to have to quit my job. I definitely thought that was past tense when she said it but I could totally be wrong.

Well either way it means that Lynch got to direct that scene which is good. Right. So touching. But speaking of the, I mean to focus on the directing I really like how this scene between Bob and Shelley and Leo, they change up the shots a little bit but I love that for the majority of it it's just this like single shot of the kitchen where they're all in frame.

Like there are points at which in this episode like the direction and cinematography both like a sense of like less like oh we're watching like a soap opera and more like just kind of you know more more like a blue velvet where we're just you know making in a way like almost making the sets pop more because there's more of that visible and everything's taking place though we're just like being framed for a play or something. Whereas like when they're like doing lots of close up shots in the in the roadhouse like you don't as much get that. It's just like two talking heads and a booth again. So I like that at points like also the opening of the episode is a great example where it's just like a flat shot of them all lined up against the wall before they all head out the day.

Like I like that I don't know what I'm searching for here because I'm shit talking about actually like filmic already terms but it just it that extra distance from the actors I feel like contributes more to a sense of place I guess. Yeah and Lynch likes a lot of mid shots. Yeah he does that on many of his episodes but I think it's the most pronounced on this episode with the single takes for as long as possible and seeing the sets in all new different ways like a little bit of different angles without seeing gimmicky it just makes this episode feel different from many of the other episodes for sure. And I think it's interesting that this episode was written by Mark Frost because the first you know 25 minutes had a lot of movement plot wise in terms of like wrapping things up moving on that's very Mark Frost and then the last 20 minutes is really like David Lynch directing.

Very, very meticulous and spend a lot of time sort of soaking up the feeling of it. Yeah. Yeah a lot of different places you can go. I'm just gonna go out for a sandwich.

I'm just gonna. Yeah I was telling Ashley before we pulled you up on Skype Scott that might be my favorite line from this episode. Yes. The most cowardly Ben Horn line ever.

Yeah absolutely. Also just the fact that that's happening with well we'll say for now Mr. Tajamura in the room. I can does that seem like uncharacteristic to interview that Ben would suddenly become such a heel just like such like a scary cat in the face of a lot like that because before it I would always seem like you think he's like on an iron grip on the town and now I think his loss of control he fell completely out of control and that moment like first he thought he could just shoot them away and that everything he says would be obeyed and he was completely over said in the situation.

Yeah I mean he's really been slipping ever since being like I'm gonna serve up Cooper to genre no on the platter like that didn't work out. Here's your money Ben he's like oh great I'm glad my daughter's back I was hoping if you did and now this is just he's in jail now. Yeah I think you know being blackmailed over Audrey's disappearance was definitely definitely kind of crumbled his his foundation of power because his lackeys turned against him you know he's relying on this kind of network that he's built up of people who are in his control and they're you know. Why do you ever trust it?

It's baddest of all people I don't know. That was clearly a little weasel. Baddest is a snippling little pervert I'm sure that you know Ben thought he was gonna be satisfied with just picking out pretty girls at the perfume counter. And having a and having a free pass on getting his nails painted and having a vacuum run I want to jacks I really keep 100 bends some.

So let's talk about Pete and Pete's scene this episode which is placed at such I think isn't that immediately following the log lady saying you know they're owls in the roadhouse and stuff like oh we're gonna shit's about to start happening and then we get this lame reveal instead. Yeah yeah this is they're definitely like two reveals in this episode. Very interesting because okay on the boards to go back to them there was a distinct camp of like Mr. Tajamora is definitely Catherine and then people being like well it's probably played by Piper Laurie we can admit to that and then people just being like what it's none of those things it's a totally different actor.

Oh my god. Mr. Tajamora looks fake as hell like the makeup like you can see that they stopped the makeup right at her jawline you can see the difference in skin tone and texture right there and apparently Piper Laurie has given interviews where she said that no one on the main cast no one on the crew knew that she was playing Mr. Tajamora and that she fooled everyone through this scene yes this is an interview that she has given and she has stated that she like showed up on set with like a translator and like people just bought it like they thought that Mr.

Tajamora was weird as hell but they bought it and she was credited under a different name like me. I can't I can't for the life of me believe that I that's got to be what she has said my mom on the other hand very quickly figured out what was going on with Mr. Tajamora yes good very good let me let me admit something oh no I did not know that that was Piper Laurie I didn't know that was Catherine I knew that it was not an Asian person and I knew after a couple of episodes that it was not a man but I was surprised myself to see that it was Catherine I definitely definitely the one is person possible doing the worst possible racist job oh my god it just someone really needs to dig into the how and why behind that being the the bring back Catherine plan or like Catherine's plot well okay but in these interviews she lynched was basically like you're gonna come back you're gonna come back and disguise and apparently Piper Laurie was allowed to determine what that disguise would be and they're like maybe you'll play like a Latino guy maybe you'll play like the another racist caricature and she chose to play a Japanese man and she told us other anecdote and there's like a video of this online about how she previously like you the makeup artist could put on yellow face and like fool her maid into thinking she was someone else and I was like this is I kind of want to unread that and just like not know any of that but that is the origin story of Mr. Tajamora it's really I mean it's it's so absurd like like and that story doesn't make it like is like if she was saying oh I made it a character choice because Catherine would be a terrible enough person to do this but no it's just like oh you get to pick whatever it is you wanted to pick oh well it's almost like a move out of like a regrettable arrest development plot line yeah not at all something that like honestly the best choice or something like this you've got some kind of facial injury you've got a burn you've just a plastic surgery you just wrap your face up in some bandages I was thinking just be two slits or eyes destroying that's all right cool or I was thinking what if instead of Mr.

Tajamora that's deeply problematic and regrettable character that never should have existed what if instead a robot arrives in Twin Peaks what about that just saying I mean one of the Rocky movies had a robot in it why not why not and then that would have let the message boards go crazy being like what if the transmission that the major received was a robot see see or literally any other decision literally any other decision just have Catherine pop out of a wall or just like it just maybe just be a dragging like just don't bring race into it that would have been fine that would have been much better yeah another question becomes why is Catherine most attracted to Pete when she is in racist drag because she thinks it's funny which is like the most almost the most fucked up thing like yes I'll be a big old kiss on my husband Pete when I know it's gonna freak him out the most like that's true interrupting his cookies and milk time to like he's just getting jerked around at every possible opportunity first he thinks captain's dead then Josie's gonna leave he's gonna be all alone like now he just needs some cookies and milk like up your wife's alive and also has been masquerading as this Japanese person who's been really should have been fooling nobody he's the reason that seemed worse though because he's such a sweet character he kind of you know gives redemption to that whole story arc I think a little bit yeah I mean Jack Nance's is an angel but are we we never have to talk about Taj Marah again thankfully one more time one more time oh god with a toast with oh right oh god okay we'll have to talk about that but I want to have the question now since we got you on the episode Scott do you have any headcanon or actually do you have any idea as to how Catherine got her assistant dude to go along with this plan the assistant who's in it like every other scene of Taj Marah also just stand there and like accept this super fucking awful thing is happening right before his eyes like how much money must be getting paid to watch Captain do this bullshit she has clearly had this plan in place since before her disappearance before the mill fire because that Asian man that's her assistant with her he is seen checking into the great northern hotel in the season finale of episode or season one right oh yeah because I think agent Cooper walks past him right and he nods at him so Catherine already has wheels turning on something that's a great spot also and the other thing is somehow her credentials is mr. Taj Marah past Jerry's check and we don't know how 30 thorough Jerry is being with all of this but she's gonna have someone somewhere kind of faking these documents I mean Jerry could have been like you know Jerry could have easily just been like on a bender and look at Jerry took a detour to France Jerry was high on Brie yeah he was face first in a baguette and then he's like oh yeah looks good to me tell Ben I say hi I'm having a great time in fact let me put me on the phones I can leave a message about this food I'm eating right now but uh yeah right we're not this is the last you see on top of our damn it okay moving right along then it's time to talk about my maybe favorite couple and cue music is making a drape runner motion yes I love that it's more visual media I appreciate it time to talk about and Nadine welcome to drape runner corner my god I cannot wait to and I think we should do this as a supplement only episode actually we should watch the movie that it's Wendy Robie right yeah Wendy Robie and Edward McGill and shortly after 10 weeks ended it's a horror movie do you know the name of it up your head Scott I wrote it down I just got the blue ray last month it's awesome it's called the people under the stairs directed by West Craven right I really this scene makes you really want to see what the hell that movie is like with them as like the central like duo it's crazy off the charts crazy they're bash it insane in that movie I love it Wendy Robie so underutilized for so much of this show oh yeah this is the best scene I think that is the exhibition of Nadine's condition and hers like her not knowing the limits of her own strength because it's just so it's not like painful to watch like oh this is like corny or like oh this is like such a hacky-dandy thing just the shock value of the milkshake and then the image of the blood and ice cream I love it so much and also then again we get a perfect guild space which I can never not laugh at as I've said multiple times in the past but also Norma has to watch all this and go along with it go along with the high school fiction it's gonna be really really awkward to be Shelley in this moment though we just had audio things so sorry this feels worth it just a minute to go on the podcast but but we think we think that she Shelley knows about Norman Big Ed just as Norman knows about Shelley and Bobby yeah so best friends keeping each other secrets she does know I remember in the episode where they got their hair done she says look at us two men apiece and we don't know what to do with any of the four of them yeah good thank you thank you that's what we're yes so there you go it's so nice having Scott on these episodes because you can actually you know it's like a back of your hand pretty much like with you to commemorate I'm gonna show this is for for Scott's eyes only because you can't see this listeners but I'm gonna show Scott my terrible terrible notes like and these are not even in chronological order any simple just like what I'm working off of us there's stream of consciousness yeah very stream of consciousness well you know I try to listen to David Lynch's kind of creative go up just put that in for meditation process yeah I actually just like go into a few states and these notes are done my re-enricated world yeah before we started this episode you were like why did I write down milk and cookies and I was like well chronologically like where is it and you were like this is not crunk I wrote because Pete because Pete always gets a shout out in my notes um who boy have we we we haven't talked about snakes return in detail we have it but I want to know that someone tells Shelley I think Norman says to Shelley get bandaids nadine clearly needs stitches there's blood all over the counter in the ice cream on her hands someone did nadine to a hospital where's Hayward oh Hayward's with the police again the only doctor in town is doing police work but yeah other Mike not on our one arm man Mike how do we feel about the how do we feel about reuniting Bobby and Mike now that we've gotten so heavily team Bobby and Shelley like it seems like now Bobby wants to distance himself he's like back with his dumb friend who always wears a dumb letter and jacket like I don't know but I feel like Mike is the voice of reason in this scene Mike is the one who's like let's take apart the heel what what was Bobby doing earlier when he was looking in the shoes for something hidden point I guess like maybe just kind of like shoving his hand down in there and being like there's nothing just leather and the rubber saw you know one time his dad had to be like now son if you're ever gonna hide anything in a boot the first place to go for is the heel because you can detach that and then make a hollow and then reattach it and Bobby's just like yeah whatever dad whatever old man you're cramping my vibe and now he must be like a real dumb dumb yeah poor snake must feel so used though because he's apparently been Bobby's go to excuse while he's like living with Shelley at her husband's house yeah I mean what are friends for really I guess I don't have strong impression of Mike I mean he becomes obviously more of a presence later on the show but right now he's just he's almost like a plot device he's just the tag a long guy he's the other person to talk to in the scene because Leah is not that at the state right yeah I wonder why this scene was written like why couldn't Bobby have just figured out the heel thing on his own I think it was partially because as Scott says like we will see some more of Mike so just to remind people that Mike exists maybe like functionally we already know he the name comes up earlier but what were you gonna say I just want to say maybe David Lynch likes that character likes Gary Hirschberger who plays him and was like we haven't seen him in a while let's get him on you know as Gary Hirschberger been in other things do you know I want to yeah I want to know if you like took a break and that's why we haven't seen he was on a small recurring part on the show 6 feet under okay she was like the partner in the company that wanted to buy the funeral oh my god you're right oh my god glad that you you had a light bulb go off there actually I've not seen six feet under yeah he continues to look like a high school quarterback throughout his whole life he's someone you look at and you're like that's a high school quarterback he's 50 but we know this who music choices what about that we talk about music choice yet we talk are we getting into the last 20 minutes of the episode no I want to talk about the scene with Lee Lynn Sarah and Maddie yes how much does it cost a license wonderful world how much does it cost a license that recording because I have to imagine a fair amount of scratch I was it's a perfect choice for this for the scene but man I that's that was my primary thought watching this time just like what's the budget for the TV show kind of lean thought you know madman paid like a million dollars to use yesterday by the Beatles over the ending credits of one episode wow see I mean adds up real fast yeah but I never heard the spoken word part of that song before and I feel like I heard that song a number of times I definitely did like a ballet routine to that song when I was younger oh what yeah did I know that you did ballet before just now no I don't think you know oh my god no you know the reveal that the true videos coming soon right do you relate most to Gersten Hayward then of the Hayward systems I'm still a Harriet fan you're still a Harriet art we should make a buzz week was which which which Hayward are you a buzz week in the equation are you and it's just like you know you fucked up if you get on oh wow we should definitely do that I'm really on board with that all right but everybody listens has a promise to retweet it but but no I think that the contrast between like Lewis Armstrong's spoken voice and his singing voice was I don't really interesting like powerful to me because he's it's such a beautiful singing voice but when he speaks it can sound very ominous is the is the photo of Laura visible in the in the Palmer household is not the same is the same photo as the one on Ben's death yes okay thought so that photo gets more screen time maybe than any other actor in this episode I feel like that's an exaggeration but I love the slow pan up to the couch that still leaves the photo and frame just to be like yep here's Maddie and here's Laura like you know reinforce that much more but done in a you know not certainly not a subtle way but in a way that I like appreciate that I think works very well I also want to talk about the layout of their living room because I feel like they have been rearranging that living room a bit much since Laura died because there are like three couches in that room and they have changed positions numerous times there is probably a lot of of writing out there I would imagine on the layout of the Palmer household because I feel like also the they film for don't they film for the pilot and for firewall with me in an actual house which then this is a set and it's very different and so that's true but no I think I think it's a valid thing to be invested in because not only is it like an interesting practical question where it's like oh for the needs of this scene like we should arrange things as such but also I mean the the kind of it's kind of reminds me of if we want to touch on this again hotel on the shining where like the layout of the Palmer household being kind of in flux is interesting sort of like how there's that room in the in the hotel in the shining that has a window that is impossible right like I like that I don't really have a sense of like for instance where the stairwell in the Palmer household is we see it a lot but where is that actually because I feel like it actually changes position between the set and the house that they use we should definitely go back and look and see if we can get a clear sense of like what's going on with that because I feel like I have a clear sense of where the stairwell is but maybe I don't I definitely know that the couch that Bob crawls over has been moved yeah well you might want to get angry for us over that's at the Hayward's house oh shit right hmm and then I know for sure that it between firewalk with me versus the series that as you walk in the front door if you look to your right on the TV series it would be the living room but in the film it's the dining room hmm so it's a yeah that tracks now I'm reminded of the Simpsons and the mystery of the rumpus room which might not resonate with either of you too there's an episode there's no sorry there's a room in the Simpsons house like actually have you watched a lot of that show no just that one episode you showed me no just that one episode yeah it's got what are you sporadically watching over the years I haven't watched it basically in probably ten years I feel like you don't need to have seen that much of it to know like the house in that shows a very realized space for what is a cartoon but there's one room that's only in like two episodes and it drives people mad when they realize that there's a room in the house that they've like almost never thought of before just search Simpsons rumpus room and you'll find countless like foreign post people being like what the hell is that I thought like it's like the show betrayed them and that's my Simpsons note well actually it's not because I feel like this episode the Simpsons takes off on Prince Pete's at a couple of points and this episode's introduction of the white horse ties into one of the Simpsons take offs oh yeah we did we posted that on our Tumblr I posted that on our Tumblr yeah I've actually forgotten momentarily like what the white horse comes in which is like dumb because it's central image so when I saw the Simpsons screenshot I was like it took me a moment to remember where that had come from in the show but we're the answer on pretty much everything else we just talked about like the last 20 minutes of the episode in detail now I guess so Scott do you have anything else that's not another reveal no I mean we've covered everything all over the way all over the place kind of way so no let's just dive into this yeah okay um the log lady Katherine Coulson appears and is addressed as Margaret once which doesn't happen all that often in the I also can't picture Cooper saying log lady to her face oh no no no no no he is too kind of a soul to do that yeah but just from her entrance onwards like things are well it is happening again but things are happening like the episode just turns on time and draws you that much further into the events even though some of those events unfortunately are the first appearance of Tana and James in the episode yes Scott's cats are back nice aww anyway so but what's interesting is Margaret Landerman the log lady says that there are owls in the roadhouse and then Cooper kind of says it's happening again I don't remember the exact line it's not something is happening isn't it Margaret mm-hmm yeah there's this very interesting emphasis on like you know more than you're telling us which I think is interesting because up until this point everyone's kind of taken the log lady at face value and we're kind of seeing Cooper push back on that a little bit hmm and I also feel like there's some sense of you know Cooper as a as a sender or receiver some kind of like suddenly things have kicked into high gear and not just Cooper's but everybody's sort of latent connection to the rest of town is is heightened for the duration of this scene basically but we'll get into that you know after we cover what's actually going on the Palmer household which starts I believe just with the terrifying like opening image of Sarah crawling down the stairs right and the record still playing it sits at the very end with a constant needle to get yeah and it looks like the living room is empty at that time yeah so has it been established prior to this what is going on with Sarah or is it all at this point in the show being implied I can't we haven't seen Sarah for a while we saw her at Leelands kind of arraignment and we see her in this episode but we have not seen her very much okay then I'll leave it at that for now but Grace Bursky doing a very good job in this like not physically easy scene but also just like I don't know to really sell that takes takes a see like great at that before like stumbling over my words more actually she does a great sedated sedated panic at the same time yeah actually so I already said I was watching this at like midnight and then this scene starts I'm just like oh this is maybe not the greatest time to watch this were you watching this over breakfast so I watched it last night while I was very tired and I didn't take really any notes so I started watching it again this morning over breakfast yeah I just I can't imagine trying to like this this scene in total is more unsettling for me than the infamous Bob couch scene and so forth in anything we've seen really so I think I'm having a difficult time trying to parse it in words yeah I definitely found myself kind of like looking at my phone to look away from the screen at certain points and I kind of question why I did that if it was a general genuinely like oh I've seen this before and I don't need to look at it or if I was kind of shielding myself in that sense Scott you have a hard time watching this sequence it's really hard because you have that feeling of impending doom and you can't I mean even watching the first time you don't know how it's gonna play out you're just like I know this you're well enough to know and that you know that deep bass background noise that's going on you know that it's gonna lead us some heavy darkship yeah let's talk about Julie Cruz at the at the road she looks better good you know her career is starting to take off yeah it is the red dress a look actually you know it's not an Audrey or Josie level look but it's certainly above a Donna level look oh yeah well again better than a biker off is she had yes yes yeah so I rock it rocket back into my heart or rocket side my heart inside my heart I think that's that's credit Dave Lynch for lyrics right at the end of the episode yes and something I was watching interview with Lynch where he talks about a movie he had wanted to make I think called Ronnie rocket yes and it occurred to me a couple days after I'd watched that interview that maybe that's where double R comes from maybe maybe that's some kind of reference for himself I guess there's also some speculation that like our R would be Bob's initials legally since Leland reveals that the family's last name is he understood it was Robertson okay interesting layers upon layers here but so we get two songs and we have to fucking deal with Donna mouthing the words Bobby's there yeah she's just like so that guy that I was like kind of having a fling with he's dead let's get back together karaoke now and everyone is eating peanuts and everyone has a different style of eating peanuts I don't know if anyone else noticed that but yeah yeah yep that was we're not doing the food segment as we do normally this week but you had suggested that we try to eat shall peanuts yeah and then I was like I'm not gonna buy a pound of peanuts to eat myself so yeah no one can put them away like Margaret so no she's loving the free and I think she actually puts him in a purse as soon as she gets at that table I believe her her and the log needs some sustenance yes yeah Cooper's whole how I want to say this energy in this scene I'd write down a note and I don't well okay I'm gonna show this note to Ashley and I'm gonna have Ashley tell me why not she thinks it's appropriate to say on the podcast yeah you should say that okay it's like I get a teeny tiny shade of fear and loathing in Las Vegas and I went down Cooper calmly waiting for the acid to kick in because he just like sits down straight back in his chair and it's just like watching and he's like okay like captain sorry Margaret told me something's gonna happen like something's gonna happen and he's just like sitting there waiting and he's like he's been visited by a literal giant who then magic away his like ring before he's like whatever this is I'm in for some shit and I love that that sort of attitude summed up in comic ockolins body language or like restriction thereof or just like you know eyes wide open like ready for the experience ready for whatever that experience is like he took some hail anyone out to the desert he just went for that taken season three reveals that the whole series was just one like deal Cooper acid trip it's just that episode yeah I heard of something to that yeah yeah yeah for that episode of since where the whole race is really hot pepper anyway just keep hitting all of those sentences yeah Johnny Cash and I said yes appearance so the giant returns it's like the giant pops in kind of like a Spotify ad like music it's time for a special message and we talk about the mirror we see we landed in the mirror once before and then we cut back the roadhouse and we cut back that's a terrifying image I don't know actually yeah no that's just Ray Wise and Frank Silva give great performances in this episode and we've talked about Ray Wise a bunch but this is the first time we're really seeing Frank Silva just like embody the creepiness he does a great fucking job I've just oh my god I want to know how that shot was done in the mirror whether it was just like superimposed or whether or not they like did some other kind of camera trickery to get that to happen I think I have a duplicate set on the other side that Frank was on one side and I was wondering like did they go that far I think so that's cool doesn't make it any less creepy though to try and focus just on the on the production side of it this must have been a I have to imagine it would have been a very taxing scene to film you know they're cutting between the Palmer House and the Roadhouse and ultimately it's like a solid five minutes of Leland slash Bob killing that they really don't shy away they don't cut away they really make you sit and watch and like sit with what's happening which is pretty unusual in TV and in movies this was the most violent shocking thing I had seen on television up to that point that wasn't on you know cable television even movies that would show on network TV and would say Printer guidance suggested and you know don't let your kids watch this they had no such warning in front of that on 20 so there was no TV MA or anything like that they just showed this and I imagine this probably freaked out a lot of people I'm trying to think of like I'm trying to think of anything I've seen on network or people produced after that like manages to be this unsettling I think I think there are things I can think of that allude to similar things but it's very much like cut away very quickly and kind of let you fill it in which is fine that's a the interesting device in and of itself but it's very different to make an audience sit with this scene specifically yeah I can think of instances of things of of violence that is a set away in television that like has sort of the disgust or like gross out factor to it you know people like I can't watch that scene from such and such like it's too gross but this is just this makes you sit with like the the act of violence and it's not absurd in like the actual carrying out it's just horrifically brutal and and also like the the way in which they depict you know Bob as Lee Lyndon doing the the very unsettling like cut between we're not cut between but like fade betweens like there's you think there's so many different ways you could depict possession but the the very blunt like quick swap is is I think scary in a in a very simple but effective way as opposed to like eyes are different or like there's a different energy or like literally physically looks different because of makeup or any of those type of things like it's a lot smarter in its economy of of also gets to utilize both actors and really show both of their performances rather than like you know sort of making one dependent on the other like oh you only kind of see Bob's face once and it's already wise for instance or something that's what makes this so difficult to watch is because you're seeing a character that you have grown to love so much over the period of time on the show in a completely different context in a different way and it makes every frames everything makes you rethink of everything that he's done in the past and to see that horrific act committing against Maddie who's a character that you really got into like is just the most you know just gets under your skin it's so emotionally devastating as a viewer yeah Maddie the the person to really call Donna and James on their bullshit doesn't deserve this right yeah yeah and I think it's interesting because we don't do certain extent with you see this act being aestheticized we do see a softer focus when when it's on Bob and we see kind of closer cuts and a little bit slowed down but it will really quickly go back to seeing Leland the shot will be clearer it will be in real time and they often really sit with that and you kind of have to imagine that that's maybe what Maddie's experiencing what she's seeing is seeing her uncle do this to her and I think that's really hard to sit with just understand that someone who Maddie loves and who she trusts is doing this to her yeah also the the way the scene ends like this I think another reason why there's the question of like Bob possess multiple people I mean at the very least we get confirmation that this isn't just like an unrelated murder the the letters based under the fingernails whatever that is that is oh and that was so gross that was so gross yeah with the exacto knife really not okay I have I have feelings about fingernails and things underneath fingernails one time my dad was doing work in the yard just like doing some digging or whatever and somehow got dirt wedged way way up and that's why I don't use my hands to do anything that's why I got very soft hands ever seen a very protected hands bit of hard work like nice silk gloves all the time if I were nice silk gloves all the time I'd basically be in the running for being a twin piece character a silk love man just stay in your apartment and he'll be fine you'll fit right in the only person stays in their apartment also works with dirt a lot that's true and as my mom pointed out there is a question as the weather heralds agoraphobia is real okay um sorry that okay we're just like we're dancing around the subject of finishing talking about the scene what about the last thing that you and says to Maddie you're going back to Missoula Montana and the painting painting is Missoula where David grew up yeah so we have any theories as to that connection why that connection is being made there are a few big cities in Montana there's only so many but you're going back to the beauty of Montana doesn't have the same ring to it I guess yeah really really highlights that that Bob is not just like he's not purely just this animalistic like you know like Bob is taking a weird like symbolic turn with that too and that's all the more terrifying and we get from like Mike's conversation that Bob is like Bob is planning Bob is out there Bob has lived in this community for 40 years presumably acting as as as Leeland does at points just without showing it over without letting on and that's all the more creepy yeah I wonder if there's a connection between Leeland's anguish and like opportunity for Bob to kind of take over the body because he's pretty I think upset about Maddie leaving as a Leeland yeah yeah now do you guys know some background history on the filming of this scene tell us you know that they wanted to throw off any leaks of the possible identity of the murder and so they filmed this scene with Richard Bamer has been hard killing Maddie also I don't realize that so they're they're put it I've never seen footage but I've heard it from multiple sources including in that book Reflections Interviewing Oral History of Twin Peaks that they filmed the scene Port Sheryl Lee had to be murdered by Frank Silva as Bob by Ray Wise and by Richard Bamer and to have it all matched together so they could cut it however they wanted to but that's never shown up on any disc that I've seen over the years interesting because I know Ray Wise gave some interviews where he talked about how no one on set knew ahead of time that Leeland was going to be the killer and how he personally was really unsettled to find out that his character was the killer Ray Wise was very unsettled by this especially because I think he had a young daughter at the time so the idea of this kind of abuse of father-daughter relationship was pretty unsettling to him and you know I guess they were really kind of trying to leave room for it to be either character or you know multiple characters that he didn't necessarily just been in Leeland yeah the the reveal question in terms of in terms of what episode do we think you know we get confirmation as to who Bob possessed at the time of Laura's death is one thing but then though this is this is the reveal like the question remains open as to exactly what's going on and I like I don't know Scott maybe you can speak more of this but like the actual network pressure to put the reveal in at this time and whether or not it came at it whether or not you know the plan was ever to actually make it clear who murdered Laura Palmer and like whether or not it was ever the intent to have it play out in this way or at this point in the story without further complicating first the sort of the nature of Bob and Mike and that whole that whole plot thread if you have insight as to that that won't be too spoiler for what is to come it would be much appreciated so I remember an interesting weekly and TV guide that sort of thing there were full-page ads that were basically saying on this night you will find out who killed Laura Palmer really and there was even a snarky commercial where the announcer said that on TV and so I mean they were definitely billing this as this was the absolute answer that everyone was waiting for I remember then the next week though when it was showing the promo on TV the announcer said last week you found out who killed Laura Palmer now find out why and you know it was showing some pretty little clips and stuff like that but production wise I I'm sure that there were decisions that Lynch and Frost had to make on the fly to give concrete answers to things that they wanted to leave more intangible and leave more up to interpretation that they actually had to start giving some concrete answers for and Lynch has said in a really great interview called what's it called I don't remember it's on the it's on the Blu-ray box and on the DVD Gold box where he's an interview with a mates and hammock and comic-glocklin and another production assistant and saying that you know they killed a golden goose by having to make this reveal on the show and the show definitely shows some signs of faltering after the story line is resolved is it tries to create stories that are of equal importance to the Laura Palmer arc and it's the most unfortunate thing of that is once they come to a resolution on this plot line it's like the show wants to move completely away from any memory of it which is really I think a huge mistake so I mean that's course corrected before this show ends obviously because David Lynch brings it all back around to what's what he feels is the the entire vortex of Twin Peaks which is Laura Palmer so yeah and I think David has spoken on a couple points about about the the whole I don't know what gets messy about the reveal and how the the intended meaning which is like for David Lynch to talk about intended meaning of things I don't know how characteristic that is but uh you know why Lee Lind and Laura and then sort of you know people reading what comes in the finale of the series and what comes in firewall with me in terms of commenting on that and what the intended takeaway is which we'll get into but for people who just want to know and it's just like man I'm not that type of viewer or at least maybe at one point I was but not anymore like who just wanted to know the answer to the thing you have your answer now and yeah it's kind of sad that the marketing was like playing it up so much to to that particular type of viewer and probably those viewers disappointing once they realize that the show was gonna move on as far away as possible from the Laura Palmer mystery in a way into other good territory other stuff other things other things um other things move on too quickly I just want to point out that um the couches in the Palmer living room are mob particularly the one that Maddie kind of lands on this fight um and um the the apartment in blue velvet has a mob scheme in the living room I don't know if you noticed that but I was really a fan of that color scheme that's that's like that's a good interior decoration look it's like it's a good look but it also like definitely brought back um I think it connects the scenes in a certain way because they're both about kind of like domestic violence and domestic abuse um so to see you that kind of thread continue to through the two kind of works is interesting to me yeah in the same interview uh David Lynch where I learned about the Ronnie Rocket thing the interviewer in a in a not so savvy way asked him what's up with Red Curtin's uh and I love his like that just like what's up with Red kind of and his response was almost equally as uh sort of stumbling he was just kind of he kind of chuckled and was like well I uh I I evidently like them like he can even really like you know have an answer whether or not he wanted to give one um but Red Curtin's that's what we we end this episode on the slow pan over the Red Curtin's fading off of Cooper's face at the Roadhouse at the Roadhouse after this is all played out I wrote down in my notes um Bobby as a receiver we Bobby is very upset for no apparent reason Donna incredibly upset James not understanding James not a receiver no uh James looks constipated yeah that really yeah true across every episode really well he breaks that pencil on the pilot no kidding um but yeah uh we also you know we see the waiter in the Roadhouse shortly after the giant disappeared the world's most decrepit room service waiter yes um and he says to Cooper I'm so sorry yeah I love that touch I love it but to a certain extent I feel like Cooper should have like shot shot out of his seat and been like oh my god what has happened because he's only seen the giant and the waiter when something terrible has happened right here I you know but this is kind of like you know Cooper waking up and saying I know who killed Laura Palmer going back to sleep and then not remembering if the plot had really moved forward in that moment the way it would kind of make sense for it too would this series have been the same probably no probably no yeah um I I I have I've never put so much stock into before the the kind of ebb and flow of people having these like extra sensory connections in town and when they do and don't come to light uh before this was through and yeah I I I like that um Cooper is of course being like directly talked to by these these presences outside the normal experience uh but yeah Donna to Donna's credit Donna knows something terrible has happened well Donna should be upset about a lot of things Donna should be upset about a lot of things Donna maybe Donna's just finally crying because she realized she let the death of an innocent man um but Bobby is clearly perturbed and um I don't know uh I have so much to say about Bobby that it still can't yet but uh but it is interesting that we're seeing most of the kind of major lynch players like the the waiter and the giant the log lady feels very lynchy and Julie Cruz feels very lynchy and so we see them all gathered in the roadhouse the only one that's kind of missing I would say is the man from another place who we know kind of mostly exist in in this other place that's very removed from the physical world of Twin Peaks right um and it's also a full noon tonight in the episode like there's a there's like it almost feels as though all those people had to like there are als in the roadhouse but like there needed to be this particular like confluence uh of people there such that the message could even be you know subconsciously received by Cooper for instance um uh and I like how that's that's a question I have but it's not at all like certain it's not as though Margaret walks into the station is like you need to be here to and do this thing and like sit right here or anything um but there does seem to be some kind of sense or inner workings going on that just aren't totally apparent to us much like how the answer uh how what's actually happened isn't totally apparent to the people who are suddenly feeling this response to it um anyway I think that's cool yeah I don't I feel like my mom didn't notice the full moon she would have texted me about that she usually texts me iRL when there is a full moon iRL so mom go back and watch for the full moon and tell me what you think yeah with the what looks like kind of superimposed fog going over it um I just got the the blu-rays Scott and uh definitely not like that uh important to discussion of the show no but I think the transfer on those looks really really good um but there's the unfortunate side effect and I don't know why this is uh where any shot with like a lot of special effects going on uh which are few but far between the show but those don't transfer nearly as well um like they only have those it seems like the video and they couldn't like reconstruct or like transfer them from film right you know what they had to do what they did for the show is they took every bit of original camera negative from when a show was shot and they scanned it at high resolution and they re-edited it synced up to the sound which didn't change except for being remixed slightly so they recreated the show recreated every edit but then on some of those special effects shots they didn't weren't able to redo those so they had to use the best footage that they had that was not in high definition so wow interesting um but it totally it totally um it transforms the show it transforms the show a great deal I mean if you're watching this on Netflix or something it looks pretty good but uh I gotta say that I'm glad I got that box set not just for the the movie and the way it seems and stuff worth um and unlike other blu-rays I've purchased recently they don't throw a bunch of dumb garbage before before you actually get to watch the movie or have like online connected menus fast and furiously um sorry i love them I just want to just want to see them diesel i don't want to have to deal with as for other movies right can be blamed anyway uh Ashley what's up we've already talked about the use net boards quite a bit but are there other highlights uh now that we've kind of um in all over this episode yeah I kind of want to go back to two things that we sort of glossed over in these last 20 minutes the first being the horse oh gosh right oh it's got skitties we need to talk about the horse yes um yeah okay um so the horse just kind of appears before Sarah Palmer um and there is some speculation on the use net boards but I kind of want to know from you guys what was your what what is your sense about the horse what is the deal with the horse um scott what's the what's that what's that quote associated with the white horse something about uh woe to the who view the pale horse yeah something like that I think it's a biblical it's a something of impending doom and death yeah um which is like definitely not something I got on my first view and then maybe I like either read up on that but like now I remember that that quote is associated with the with the image with the vision of the of the white horse uh but it's definitely something where if you don't know that that's what it's what it's telling you like on the water around the water cooler on monday you're like what the hell was that like well what I thought it was was I'd read Laura's secret diary and she has a pet horse named Troy that Leland gives her and then she finds out later they've been horned given it to her but I always kind of thought that Sarah was having some sort of vision that involved the blorist horse oh yeah I didn't know that at all that's kind of the start of her secret diary is her like 12th birthday or something like that and she receives the horse right then um and I think uh the quote that you guys are talking about they're talking about the use net boards about it's apparently something you see before you go to hell which kind of ties in with the idea that the people who see bob are the gifted and the damned um Sarah Palmer in this case I guess being both kind of um and then the other parallel that people are drawing is horse is an h is slang for heroine um the idea being that this might be a visual cue that Sarah Palmer has been drugged maybe in a manner similar to how Audrey had been drugged okay um and then the other thing I just noted was um when we kind of see Maddie kind of separated from Bob slash Leland we see this really gory vision of her face and she's covered in blood um and you know he slams her face into that painting and I think it's interesting because so often um shows that incorporate violence against women really shy away from from those portrayals it has to be really aestheticized and they're still beautiful and sort of like you know when you open up the plastic and you see Laura Palmer's face she looks very peaceful and beautiful and someone clearly like did her makeup before this um but I think it's offsetting a very powerful to see Maddie's face in the state that it's in because um it's really kind of dismantling this idea of like aestheticized violence against women um and it's really kind of again like making the viewer sit with the reality of this violence yeah it's not it's not giving an overly tv and in that way more uh more troubling portrayal of violence it's it is making you sit with that like you said and not cutting away not showing it from anything unpleasant yeah um I guess that's maybe too much for some people but including me a little bit like I said I the episode was done and I was like I scribbled down my last couple notes and I was like I need a pallet cleanser and I think I watched the Rick and Morty season finale and I was still up until like four that night it was rough it was a rough night should have watched uh on the air oh yeah a real pallet blender yeah I would have had to deal with more of Dick Tremaine's actor uh and I just don't know if I can he's actually great in that he's hilarious well I mean we we've talked about maybe doing that as a bonus episode um yeah um also like this kind of if my counts not totally off and if we don't do too many other like in-week bonus episodes the one we've had so far for the north bend trip we released at the same time as another episode but this kind of marks a halfway point too um through the series at least and then I think even kind of movie this might be the the literal turning point halfway through so how's it feel actually um you know I'm glad that we've stuck with this think about what's happened since we started the show a lot of things like I mean it's getting it's actually still really really unseasonably warm in Portland but they're also like believe they're changing colors yeah that hasn't changed um still kind of kind of grossly muggy outside of points which is not characterically Portland um I'm curious Scott when did when did you find our podcast relative to us starting it um I think you were on episode maybe five on the first season so you've done it yeah it's been a while it's been a while not actually all that long times weird like that um yeah so any other production notes uh I mean I'm not equipped but actually or Scott anything anything you want to throw out there um just a second okay here we go I have I have all my use net notes this was also this was um one of the few kind of rises and viewership during the second season probably because of ABC's kind of campaign to advertise as the reveal of Laura's killer um like we said directed by David Lynch uh written by Mike Frost there was a lot of mystery obviously surrounding this episode already both Catherine and Leland yeah um are you guys ready to just dive into the use net boards oh sure yeah okay so we've covered a lot of this but I just want to know that there were 179 topics uh we're starting the day that this aired going through to about six days after the episode which is when I usually do my my look through um there's some interesting theories that we've kind of already touched on um there are a lot of people who are very convinced that there is an E under Jacque Renau's nail because I think that the letters are spelling out Robert okay um and a lot of people sort of move from the Leland theory that had been pretty prominent to a Ben Horn theory with Leland as the red herring and someone verbatim writes it's funny that ABC is making everyone believe that Leland was Laura's killer funny yeah so also a lot of brainpower expended on uh how mr Tajimora's credentials get verified as well as um the presence of the navy men so um you know people are arguing about like why the navy is in this kind of landlocked town uh and apparently there's a nuclear facility in Idaho that I think is used so that the navy people can like learn how to operate a nuclear reactor whatever anyway I'm sure that much thought went into it I'm sure yes anyway um but people start arguing about and this is something we saw in the first couple episodes where Twin Peaks is okay because someone says brings up the point where you know Cooper says it's five miles from Canada it's 12 miles from the state border um people are like okay therefore it's close to Idaho and then someone's like well they don't specifically say Idaho there is no western border to Washington state there is only the Pacific Ocean it cannot be both five miles from Canada and 12 miles from Oregon that is physically geographically impossible for is it good question um this is an alternate universe where Washington is just this thin strip of land at the northern border of the United States but there's a lot of island from lost there's a lot of wasted space in Washington it could be that um I will say the only other possible answer is that they're thinking that the border with the ocean but then they're thinking that someone would actually call that the state border and not just like the ocean which no real person would talk that way like yeah it's just up in the up in the upper right hand corner of Washington supposedly and that I mean it doesn't really make that much sense like not anything up there and you know everything is actually filmed rather far away from that in the actual physical locations in Washington state but just don't think about it too much I guess and then in any case picking off of the theory that you know Bob is moving from Ben to Lee Land or what have you there's a theory that Laura's and Laura's spirit has inhabited both Donna and Maddie which is interesting kind of accounts for the scenes where Laura's face gets super imposed over both of them which we mostly see you know with Sarah would maybe account for Donna's bad girl moment at the sheriff station but the most interesting theory um is a parallel drawn between Special Agent Dale Cooper and BB Cooper okay who for those unfamiliar you know in the early 70s I think you know aborted a plane boarded a gin and tonic and then just kind of like took the plane hostage demanded a very large sum of money when the plane landed took the plane again demanded that it land in Seattle the plane had been headed to Portland and landed there then went on to Seattle and then when the crew went back he had like jumped off of the plane he had left the plane somehow and no one's ever found to be Cooper no one well it's Don Draper right I wish that that had been the ending to Mad Men honestly but Don Draper is Dale Cooper right this is all yeah that would be that great that'd be a terrible backstory for Dale I'm really into that I hope someone writes that fan fiction I'll eat it you're not gonna form ancopter right that one for yourself no I want to read that sooner than I want to write that so yeah what were the boards theorizing other than the similarity in names like any was anybody trying to like make that work or there was a little like mysterious but I think it's mostly the name thing okay well it is like you know that took place in the Pacific Northwest the the DB Cooper thing and this is taking place in the Pacific Northwest I think there's definitely like a question as to how old DB Cooper would have been at this time probably not a young spry kind of a glauklin but probably not no no I'm into that it's always fun to think about and honestly like if there was a mystery like that like we'll say this that doesn't have any bearing on where the show goes after this but like if the show had gone on a direction like that or like in a direction inspired by that story which is just like a fascinating real-life story probably would have been like a million times better than what we took at any time like this is it's gonna be season three they're gonna reveal all of that I just like I mean we have weeks and weeks to discuss this but where we go from here in terms of also in terms of addressing Dale's backstory you know David Lynch to my knowledge and Scott chime in if you if you're more based on reflections or anything else you've read but like my impression is that David Lynch kind of steps away from being as involved from the conclusion of this storyline until he comes back and you know I don't want to attribute everything to like his vision but like when one of the lead creators is like unhappy with the situation and then we get what we end up getting it seems like it that's the kind of you know that would be out of tune maybe held by a lot of people in the production and then it feels like like the kind of love and energy being poured into this arc just evaporates and like people like you know we've already had the hints of you know Windham Earl and his opening chess move and stuff and it's so it's not is interesting because it seems like the people maybe aren't as interested in it to me as this storyline goes like anything anything at all that might have ignited the crew and the production and the writers would have been so much better than what seems to be this like conglomerate of dead fish storylines from here on out yeah I mean the departure of Lynch I mean I think he basically kind of checked out since the storyline with Laura and Leeland was over and he was very hands-off for a long long period of time except for his occasional return guest spots is Gordon Cole which are awesome but the show definitely the thing that hurts the show even more than the earlier probably than they would have wanted to reveal of the killer is the removal of the Audrey and Cooper romantic supply and things that I've read indicate that that would have built up and been the main focus of the second half of the season and would have culminated in involving Windham Earl and him getting his hands on Audrey and her life being endangered and Cooper and have to face off against him you know that sort of thing okay and instead we get the other stuff yeah instead we get the other stuff actually how many episodes away from where you've seen Armin now I've seen through arbitrary law okay which is a couple of episodes away it's another episode that Mark Ross writes it's the one that I kind of thought I think is the most explicit in terms of just shutting the door on every other possibility for Laura's killer right and I just want to know that this is the last episode that David directs up until the season two finale episode 29 and Mark Ross is gonna write arbitrary law coming up in a few weeks episode 16 as well as episode 26 and episode 29 which again David directs so you know Mark Ross is still there but we've talked before about the difference between Mark Ross episode and David oh yes so that's gonna you know I can continue to be a parent yeah and then we just get you know what we some some interesting faces are gonna pop up and some characters that you'd think at this point we're definitely done with we're not done with are gonna pop up but you know the the the arc is just I don't know there's no I don't want to be like overstepping here and be like this is just like a fans reaction but it really does just seem like the investment in it the investment in crafting an interesting story with interesting twists and a word payoff just isn't there so it really feels like they did not think that they were gonna have to make as many shows as they had to in there they had the reality of what we've got to make more stories into more episodes well this was kind of interesting let's go ahead and just do this or let's let's have a crazy relative of someone coming to town or let's take this character out of twinkies and put them in a situation oh god oh god all right oh my god those all right that's like that's like season four stuff for motion when you're kind of really grasping for something to do but you're also invested in the characters enough that like your audience is willing to kind of see the characters go where they go but to this early on kind of shut the door on the main draw of the show it's a foolish choice on the part of ABC now but I could see how you know prior to kind of the growing popularity of serialized tv I could see how you know ABC could feel like this doesn't make sense like how are people gonna keep watching if they don't know whereas now we would think that the not knowing is really the draw to continue to watch and also I think now like I think it would be fair to be ABC and be in a position where it's like if you talk to Dave Lynch and Mark Frost and they're like yeah we don't ever want to reveal who the killer is they'd be like oh what um like that doesn't work and then you make the wrong decision by being doing it now you got this much time like make it happen versus like I think tv is just you know in their examples still way way way to the contrary I think I'm not a fan of the show but I feel like people all I ever see with the Walking Dead is people who are like why is this why does this show become a literal zombie where is it going um but there are then shows like Breaking Dead that are very explicit about like they make plans to end at a certain point and whether that's whether that's a end point that they always intended or they're just like you know what sometimes it's nice to work under constraints and actually like be able to try and set ourselves a schedule and bow out like seems like that wasn't necessarily the plan between peaks either but you know that's a happy medium versus then being like nope cut it off the legs it'd be like it'd be like if they had ordered six seasons of lost but then at the end of season two and like hey you need to wrap up what's weird about the island and then figure out what else to have the characters did you like it you know the show kind of plays at that game by like trying to get people in different situations outside of the island not a big spoiler um but it intentionally keeps that mystery that it has its initial gambit alive because it knows that without it the question of what the show is becomes that much harder to answer especially when the show is just a question and when you get twin peaks without who killed Laura Palmer they don't really give a better question to fill that void um it's really too bad they couldn't know I'm sorry go ahead Ashley oh no you go ahead I'm going in a different direction so I just one more thought about that is too bad they couldn't have done the second season as being seven episodes and then taken a prolonged break and then came back in the spring with another starting another mystery I think that would have let them recharge their batteries and take what's best out of the rest of season two and compacted it into that and created is almost equally compelling series yeah I think that um you know the way ABC kind of handled this is I'm a stick that we see you show time make again and again and I'm mostly thinking of Dexter you know where you have someone who's been very involved with the show for a really long time say season four is you know marks the last chapter we can have one more season to wrap things up but then this is the end of kind of what we've set up for this character which in Dexter's case was this tension between being a normal person being a serial killer and then we see you show time say no no no we still have a ton of views we want to keep that going and then you know basically decimate the premise of the show in order to keep it going and keep viewership going keep it on the air and I think there's a pretty strong parallel in terms of like the decline of quality yeah absolutely so let's hope that season three between peaks isn't super successful and that's so time order is more oh that's true I forgot show time is doing season three yeah I thought you were on the same page there um this is interesting for me because in interviews David Lynch and Mark Ross have said like we're still in love with the world of Twin Peaks and there's still stories to mine there and things to do and um let's not get into anything that we've heard leaked on the internet about season three but I wonder whether or not I mean the fact of the matter is that Firewalk with me the you know the big dose of Twin Peaks we get outside of the show is set prior to the show and well it focuses on the Laura Palmer storyline um in a big way it doesn't it doesn't take that kind of gap of time to then be like what do we do with what do we do with these characters in this space along a different line instead and it's not like you know oh I'm sort of disappointed that you know decided to fill in that time um and address it in an interesting way but it doesn't start a new arc basically um and I wonder if season three is going to continue with the Laura Palmer mystery as its central motivated factor or if it will you know actually be like hey we've taken these characters we've taken this place we've taken the themes that we've already set up and and the actual like fictional elements of the world um you know spirits and mysterious transmissions and so forth and and move that in a different direction um because I don't know it's one thing to say like we love the characters and that's great they love it cool but does that mean that you also are still committed to to working in the the Laura Palmer storyline or along that theme or is there or is there more to this that you want to explore I don't know right and I think that the season two finale from what I know again I haven't seen it but I've read like enough about it at this point that I know it rings it back like Scott was saying there's kind of the sense that David Lynch is bringing it back full circle um and I have read some interviews with him previously where he prior to the announcement of Showtime picking it up for season three had talked about with season three and vision and it seems like it does go back to the central mystery in a somewhat broader way so I'm curious to see how much you know this version of season three is gonna resemble the one that he had originally envisioned yeah I think we're all we all want to see our favorite characters actors return and stuff worth but I don't know I'm ambivalent I guess it could be could be good and interesting in your way but do either of you have like do you want to see the show move in a different direction with the hope that now with the time and resources they've been granted they can make the sort of the twin piece after Laura Palmer mystery that they wanted to make or that's worth making or or are you hoping that what we get is an extension and a sort of a conclusion to what's laid out in season one and season two you have thoughts I don't know what I expect or want from this honestly part of me wants it to pick up as though in the same kind of tone as the best of the show and some of the movie which I do I love the movie but it is different from the film or from the series I want it to be like that but then on the other hand I don't want them to just continue the exact same course that they were going I want to see what 25 years has done to all these people and David Lynch as a filmmaker I want to see the the movies that he's made in between which are my favorite movies of his like Mullen drive is my absolute favorite movie of his and I love Lost Highway and I would like to see some of the storytelling techniques that he used in those films be incorporated into the world of Twin Peaks so I I'm trying not to really expect anything because then I won't be disappointed and I'll just be I'm sure I'll love whatever happens but I can't say what I think is going to happen. Yeah I'm on board with you I definitely want to kind of go in with a sort of blank slate mentally and just kind of you know appreciate it for what it is you have been texting me all the possible spoilers I was going to say that it's hard to think about what specifically this question about whether the third season is going to incorporate this central lore of Homer mystery or not it's hard to think about that without thinking of some of the really recent spoilers that I have been texting with you about which also I'm going to say like maybe next time ask me if I want to do spoiler okay no no no I assume you're gonna see them regardless no because I'm not actually like at least where I've been like you know on Twitter and things I haven't actually seen anything new for a while because it's an account that both of us we'll talk about this I you know I've been bad at Twitter I guess I don't know but uh no it's not even that I like oh I can't I don't I want to go spoiler free now it's more like on a on a on a day where I get that text on my bus ride home from work or whatever and I just like sit there and dwell on that like it kind of throws off my vibe I don't know sorry it's really hard to play it's not actually like something that's a big concern but I don't know I guess I'm good with spoilers as far as cast like knowing this person's gonna show up and do something and you're you can speculate on what like both is our getty oh sorry we're not supposed to do spoilers yeah the only casting that Showtime has actually officially confirmed right now is Kyle Kyle which is like kind of wild considering the number of people who like pretty openly talked about like being on the show or even spotted on set but you know we're trying to keep it spoiler free-ish relative to like what show time is officially releasing on the note of Lost Highway I really hope Trent Reznor has a cameo role in the new thing yeah um yeah I guess yeah I I want to be like I'm along for the ride I guess I why definitely don't want like it'd be kind of weird if the new series was a big departure in form but I would definitely hate if it was just felt like it was phoned in and like dipping into the well and it's just like every couple episodes you're gonna see some like weird shit happening there's like like clockwork is a dream sequence for you dollar analyze or whatever like I want it to really hang together as as an extension whether or not mostly in the same vein or whether or not it like is indicative of some stylistic growth or departures on the parts of Lynch and Frost what has Mark Frost done in between on the air in this um he's written some books I think at least one book that I know of but any director film called Storyville that had James spader in it that was shortly after Twin Peaks in fact I think it came out around the same time as Fire Walk With Me James spader would be an interesting person to see in Twin Peaks wow did you know that he wrote the script for the fantastic form movie that did not just come out but the one with Chris Evans and Jessica Alba in it really as yeah the script for Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer which was also the sequel that had Chris Evans and Jessica Alba in it wow and Lawrence Fishburne is the voice of the Silver Surfer yes yes wow okay um I'm gonna try to forget that you just told me that um you know what you brought this up it's yeah well I mean Mark Frost then isn't involved with what's definitely the worst Fantastic Four movie yeah I guess we can take that to heart um well is there anything else we have to address for this this episode or the implications that this episode has for what's to come next I mean the show is definitely about to take a turn and if you know anyone who's really watching this for the first time like our moms should maybe be aware of that yeah um yeah oh did you know Mark Frost also wrote that golf movie the greatest game ever played I don't even know what golf I'm talking about with Shilah Buff I know this because my brother plays college golf so I had to see this at one point in my life um hey you know what James spader Shilah Buff put him in some peaks why not yes see where that goes what if Shilah Buff was kind of playing a mixture between his character in the fourth Indiana Jones movie and James yes but he was a new biker boy oh my god I love it you'd probably be better and swing from trees with monkeys oh god what a disaster yeah um anyway let's do let's do our who we are in our plugs and Scott let's let you go first all right well I just have started a new podcast with my best friend Kevin and it's called the I'm So Sure podcast and we talked about movies TV shows music that we like it's a lot of 80s memories because we've known each other since we were in high school we just recorded an episode this weekend about Twin Peaks coincidentally and you can find us on Facebook at I'm So Sure podcast and on Twitter I'm So Sure podcast also cool and just for anyone who's gonna check out your show is that Twin Peaks episode spoiler for the whole series it is spoiler it does reveal the killer but it is not specifically spoiler it has two cliffhangers involving the end of the series okay cool just making sure is that in case one of our moms goes and listens they can they can have an informed decision yes we do give a spoiler warning on it so oh cool awesome yeah check that out um I'm Matthew Olson at Matthew Olson on Twitter um my mom has told me that she won't follow me there thank you mom it's really just a bunch of garbage tweets nothing of value there but if you're a different listener you can check that out I do another podcast with my friend Caitlin Best called Can You Get To That it now has a Twitter at get to that and it's a comedy Wikipedia racing podcast the last episode was um Scott you might enjoy this it was a the subject was the music video for opposites attract by Paul Abdul oh yeah yes it's it's a great one because Paul Abdul is in a relationship with the cartoon cat it's totally gross can't direct it to the worst thing ever and we took that as our topic for the episode otherwise yeah that's it can you get to that. simplecast.fm that's that's it for me all right I'm Ashley Grant my mom follows Matt on Twitter mom you can't follow me on Twitter but anyway actually yeah wait does my mom follow you on Twitter I don't think so okay we should have maybe a role where it's like neither our mom's can follow you on Twitter sorry plug your tape um anyway so I have a couple of other podcasts the cable which has been on hiatus due to some technical issues but we are coming back strong um you know being feeling sending good vibes to Lamar Odom right now obviously um and I also have a podcast called the I've seen that with my friend Sandra Tanda and we talk about movies on the cable we talk about the Kardashians um which is a you know keeping up with the Kardashians as a masterpiece on the level of Twin Peaks in my opinion so definitely listen to that when we come back soon and you can find me on Twitter at Ashley Grant cool cool cool Scott thank you again for returning as our guest and so far being the only guest we've had um it's been a real pleasure so we're afraid to go to anybody else I mean yeah no one else is gonna have that encyclopedia Twin Peaks memory so why bother yeah well I really appreciate you guys it's been a lot of fun in any other yeah contributions you need for me in the future feel free to ask all right we'll do um and with that actually I think it's time for you to end the show all right don't forget to brush your teeth here yet