Love Dishonored in Euripides’ “Medea” (Part 4)

Wes & Erin continue their discussion of Ancient Greece’s most notorious battle of the sexes, and Euripides’ rumination on the question of whether the Athenian ideals of rationality and moderation sufficiently honor the instinctual side of human nature. Upcoming Episodes: “A New Leaf” (Elaine May), “Whoso List to Hunt” and “They Flee From Me” (Thomas Wyatt), “Beetlejuice” Pre-order Erin’s forthcoming book “Avail” here: http://subtextpodcast.com/avail For bonus content, become a paid subscriber at Patreon or directly on the Apple Podcasts app. Patreon subscribers also get early access to ad-free regular episodes. This podcast is part of the Airwave Media podcast network. Visit AirwaveMedia.com to listen and subscribe to other Airwave shows like Good Job, Brain and Big Picture Science. Email [email protected] to enquire about advertising on the podcast. Follow: Twitter | Facebook | Website Transcript 0:19 Erin: or patreon.com/subtextpodcast. 0:32 Wes: Hey, welcome to part four of our discussion of Euripides Medea. We just got done talking about Medea making her revenge plans and the chorus sort of thematizing that as a revenge of women against men, not just Medea against Jason. They're a bit conflicted about it. What seems to appeal to the chorus of women is is this idea of vindicating women. And that's the point where Jason enters and at this point we are on page 62 of the Davie translation. He's going to portray himself as this very calm and collected and cool and beneficent person, as opposed to her being out of control and crazy. Cast himself as practical and concerned about security and material well being and the willingness to submit to authority, in this case the king. She in turn will fight back by casting him as spineless, ungrateful for her help, and a violator of oaths. So which is it? Which one is it? Is he just a calm, practical guy or is he? 1:43 Erin: Wes, is now a good time to tell you that I'VE been radicalized by the chorus, so I'm taking over from now on. You can just be quiet. No. Yeah. Okay. I love when he comes in. 1:57 Wes: It's great. There's a surly temper. 1:59 Erin: Is incurable evil? Yeah. 2:01 Wes: Is that what you're talking about? 2:04 Erin: Yeah, he's quite. I mean, he's quite sarcastic. No, I'm envisioning all of this. Or. Or in my mind's ear, I'm hearing it as him being like, please, you know, continue to tell the world about that arch criminal Jason. Yeah, he's a piece of work. Yeah. 2:19 Wes: I. The. My. Yeah. I have this same reaction. I. When I see. Because sarcasm is quite rare in my experience in ancient Greek literature. And when you see it, it's like, wow, someone is being scathingly sarcastic. I mean, listeners can correct me if I'm wrong. People who have. Sure, there are people who've read more than I have, but that's been my. My experience of it. So I almost like, wow, that's quite something. Yeah. 2:42 Erin: It immediately makes him deeply unlikable. It's not fun sarcasm. This is not great. And, you know, we've been set up to, like, be really against this guy, not only because of the mythology, but because of the really clear sympathies of the other characters, not just Medea. So, you know, he talks of her speaking against the royal house. So again, we get. You know, we're getting a lot of metonyms all the time, but I really like when she sort of lays out her case and also tells him what she believes are his real motivations. So first we get a history of their relationship from her perspective. So I have. Oh, now I know what word it was. I have in the. In the margins. Preach. 3:23 Wes: Preach. 3:25 Erin: You owe your life to me. I wrote preach. 3:27 Wes: Okay, well, before you preach, I just want to say he ends his speech with this very. Don't silence Jason, Erin. Sorry, Jason shall not be silenced. 3:36 Erin: Slinking away. 3:36 Wes: But to say something critical, he. He ends his speech with this very smarmy, passive aggressive, you know. 3:44 Erin: Oh, yes. 3:45 Wes: Even if you hate me, I could never wish you anything but good. After berating her and talking about her stupid attitude and her, you know, surly Temple temper. Shirley Temple. It's a good choice. 4:00 Erin: That's an alcoholic Shirley Temple with, like, bourbon. 4:05 Wes: That's right. I have a Surly Temple. You want a Shirley Temple? No, I want the alcoholic version of the Surly Temple. 4:13 Erin: This is scotch, probably. 4:16 Wes: I'm feeling not so much like Shirley today, a little bit more like Surly Shirley. You can't be serious. Sorry. So I just wanted to set that stage for. Yeah, so go ahead with her side of this. 4:29 Erin: Yeah, that's a really important part. I have three exclamation points and several frowny faces next to him. This is really quite cathartic. And, you know, she. 4:41 Wes: She. 4:41 Erin: I love this. This moment right at the beginning where she says that she thanks him for his visit. She says, my heart will gain some relief once I have told you what I think of you. And further, my words will make painful listening for you. It's like, you know, all she really wants is closure. Right. This is. 4:57 Wes: And this is. Right. And this is analogous to poison, by the way. So this would be a better form of poison if he could take it. It might sicken him a little bit, but if he could hear it, it might persuade him and make the use of literal poison less necessary. But. Sorry, go ahead. 5:13 Erin: Yeah, so just to kind of outline this speech, she. She goes back through the mythology, you know, and talks about how I betrayed my own father, my own family, to come here with you to Iolkis under Pelion, showing more eagerness than sense. That's certainly true. Yet you have betrayed me, you unfeeling monster. More to back up your reading of him. You have taken a new wife, though we have children of our own. For if you still had no sons, it would be something I could forgive. This desire you have for a new bride, if you had a Henry VIII style motivation, maybe I'd be able to forgive you. But you don't. And then she knows that, or she feels that he no longer loves her and that a lot of this is motivated by his lust for Creusa. Because she says, you know, if I had. I can't. I will confide in you as if I had your love. In other words, I don't anymore. And she says, where am I to turn now? You know, I can't go anywhere. 6:03 Wes: Where. 6:03 Erin: Where shall I go? What shall I do? And he says, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. And she ends. This is my favorite part. Maybe she ends by saying, oh, Zeus, why is it you have given men clear ways of testing whether gold is counterfeit, but when it comes to men, the body carries no stamp of nature for distinguishing bad from good. You know, along the lines of things we already said in part three? But, you know, I really like that she can't fall in love based on. Again, this works if he's really handsome and stuff, right? But like the body, basically, she's fallen in lust with him. And there's no way to tell your body. Okay. And this is not an emotionally astute man, so forget it. She's. She's a slave to her passions, and now she's regretting it. 6:50 Wes: Yeah. I don't know if the ancient Greek of what men is translating there, if it's anthropos, which would mean human beings in general, or I think, is it a Nair? A Nair would be the word for men, but so specifically. But yeah, but it's a really. Regardless, it's an interesting predicament that we're all in, which is that we are, in a way, trying to read the signs. We are engaged in the fortune telling or divination when it comes to other people. And the signs are supposed to be indications of character, and they are quite subtle and interesting. Right. It's. It's what they say, but it's also how they say it, the tone of what they say. And it's body language and facial expression. Everything that might stamp someone. Right. Is that the word she uses? 7:39 Erin: Yes. 7:40 Wes: You know, everything that might stamp someone as often. And often, of course, there are people who are good at. At portraying a character which is not really what's there on the inside. The truth in general, I think will out. Obviously, you know, the longer you're with someone, you find out eventually. But, yeah, really, really great line. And then his response, which. This is another great line. So he does have some really great lines. I must trim the edges of my sail to run before the tempest of your noisy protestations. God, I just. You just. Just for our audience, you just rolled your eyes. 8:18 Erin: Wes is writing all down. Like, next time I want to really insult a woman, I'm going to pull some of these out. I'm going to trim myself. No. 8:26 Wes: So great little. Great little metaphor. And I just imagine Euripides writing that and thinking, yeah, I'm good. 8:32 Erin: I'm good. I love when he says, where you did give assistance, it was of some benefit. 8:40 Wes: Yes. So, yes, great, great, great characterization in this dialogue. Yeah. 8:46 Erin: But in fact, in saving me, you gained more than you gave, as I shall tell. Stay tuned for more. In the first place, instead of an uncivilized country, your dwelling is now the land of Greece, where you have come to know justice and the use of law instead of being subject to force. Oh, really, Jason? This is justice? Thanks a lot. Where I come from, people at least stay true to their word. But I don't know, maybe you haven't heard of that in Greece. Okay, 9:13 Wes: this is good. You Should. You could do a rewrite. You could do. 9:16 Erin: I could do a dramatic reading of this entirely. Yeah. This is. I love this play. Like, there is not psychology like this. I don't think in any other, you know, Sophocles and Aeschylus, it's just not the same. This is why this is my favorite. He makes me so mad. And it's rare for me to have an emotional reaction like this to an ancient Greek mythological figure. Right. 9:39 Wes: He'll say, you know, you became famous for your special gifts here. Which he suggests is not something she could do in an uncivilized country, which I don't think makes much sense. But he says he acted like a true friend to her in getting married and to his children, which is an interesting way to put it. And then he says, look, this is a huge stroke of luck to be able to marry the king's daughter. I'm not doing it because I'm out of love or that I want more sons. I just want to live comfortable. And I want us to live comfortable. I'm doing it for us, honey. I'm doing this for us. It's good planning. So again, he characterizes all of this as just very practical, very ordinary. What are you worried about? You're just jealous. And then he makes his complaint against women. The world should be rid of women. There should be some other way to reproduce. 10:30 Erin: Well, first he yells at her to calm down. Every woman's favorite thing. 10:34 Wes: Really? Give me the exact line. 10:36 Erin: That's 5. 51. Medea reacts angrily. No, calm down. 10:41 Wes: Okay. Right. He doesn't. 10:44 Erin: This guy hits every single thing. And he even says, and I quote, the fact is that you women have reached the point where you think your happiness is complete when love smiles on you. But should some misfortune mar that love, you take all that is good and beautiful in life and turn it into grounds for bitter hatred. I mean, I just. I love the fact that he says, you women, you always do that. It's like an episode of Designing Women where. I don't know if you've ever watched 11:11 Wes: that show, but, like, not in a long time. But I never watched much of it. 11:16 Erin: Yeah, that is like one of my favorite. I feel like you would really love that show. Sometimes it's a little much, but one of the main characters played by Dixie Carter, Julia Sugarbaker, she always goes on these rants and she has her real life husband plays her boyfriend. And there's this exchange where they're arguing, they're having a battle of the sexes thing, and he's like, you women. And she just, like, gets enraged and starts going after him. And it's really fun. He's a great guy in the show and a great. It's not anything like this. They have a loving relationship. But. But the. 11:45 Wes: The. 11:45 Erin: For. I'm just saying the formula, like, for everything is right here. This is just such a strange sentence, actually, when you look at it. So what is he saying? You. When you think your happiness is complete is when you have love. But then if someone takes away that. That love, then you ruin your life and. And become really mad about it. It's like, well, that sounds logical to me. I don't know. You know, he's. 12:12 Wes: He's criticizing the idea of putting everything into the libidinal. 12:17 Erin: Right. 12:18 Wes: As opposed to what Freud would call ego instincts. So there's security, safety, taking care of oneself, practical stuff, being handy around the house. Jason's wearing a tool belt at this point. 12:30 Erin: Oh, please. She fixes everything. 12:33 Wes: And then there is passion. And so there's. Right. So there's this energy that's kind of pointed outward toward the world towards objects of one's passion, towards people in particular. And then there's questing, and then there's. Yeah. Social climbing and, you know, making sure they have money and can buy a Lexus and have high status in society and all that. So, you know, that's another aspect of the interesting conflict that's being represented here. And he's not just in this, in a way. He's not just abdicating love in her eyes. He's abdicating honor and oaths. Right. He's violating his oaths and behaving dishonorably and, of course, betraying her. She. And she uses this word honorable. I think there's something about the dishonor of it. Him trying to take, you might call it sleazy, but behavior which is essentially dishonorable and cast it as something. This is just ordinary practicality. And what are you talking about? That really enrages her. 13:33 Erin: Yeah, And I like the fact that there is also, you know, if we're to take seriously, which I do, the idea that what is also motivating this is lust for Creusa, then of course, that thread makes this speech hypocritical as well. And he's already invoked this idea of her own fame and her special gifts, becoming famous among the Greeks. He will repeatedly make claims to either giving her certain benefits, which he, in the process of this place, events, is actively undoing. 14:05 Wes: Right. 14:06 Erin: Well, I brought you here. You should be Grateful to me. Well, he's about to do something that is ensuring her exile. Right. Well, I made you famous and I made you your special gifts. Well, he's about to vacate this advantage she gave her by basically casting her to the four winds so that she'll become obliterated. Right, Right. So there's a hypocrisy here. When he mentions what he did for her, he's also, by that same token, undoing it with this action that he's taken. When he mentions the things that are wrong with her, they're also the same thing is also, at the same time wrong with him. And, you know, he. He is trying to have everything both ways. She is, too. I mean, she talks about how the criminal with a gift for speaking deserves the worst of punishments. Right. Of course. That's. That's her. You know, Jason isn't as good as a speaker. Well, he's just. 14:56 Wes: Yeah, she's responding to the I must trim the edges of my sail and all his. You know, at a rhetorical level, he's given a fancy speech, sure. 15:03 Erin: But of course, he's. He's not convincing anyone. He's not convincing the chorus. 15:06 Wes: Well, he'd. Actually, the chorus does say at the end of it, which is interesting. They say, you make good arguments, Jason, but you betrayed your wife and you're behaving unjustly. That's what they basically, basically say. It's a really interesting conflicted answer to give. So they, In a way, they have to, like, begrudgingly admit that there's a logic to what he's saying. But, you know, it all rests on him not giving any value to love. He even says she's. She said, you know, I helped you with all these things. And he says, no, the one who helped me was Aphrodite. You may be smart, but it was love that compels you to do all these things. So you weren't even acting of your own free will. So why should I credit you with doing anything out of love? Love is a force beyond us. So very interesting. Right, because in a way, he's trying to reduce her to her psychological impulses. It's almost like pathologizing her. But on the other hand, he literally does mean also Aphrodite. It's reduction to fate or to the forces, to the actions of the gods. So I could say that to anyone. I don't owe you anything. Because you just did it because you were psychologically determined to do it. So why are you asking for me for anything in return? So if you don't drill down to the basic assumptions of the argument, his arguments fit together. It's the assumptions that ultimately are perverse. And the chorus doesn't drill down that far and can only say, okay, you're good at arguing, but basically, it doesn't change the fact. The one thing that the chorus can hold on to is that they know, like Medea, that he has behaved dishonorably and broken his oath, whatever rationale he wants to give them. 16:46 Erin: I like that a lot. I think. I mean, I think this is what. This is what Medea literalizes in her crimes. Jason wants to start over with somebody else, wants to cast her out, and she's saying, okay, if you want to act like we've never been married and never had kids, I'm going to take this literally. You are sort of literalizing everything. I'm going to, in a way, carry out your own desire, your own thought experiment of, imagine if I wasn't tied down to this barbarian woman and could start over here with it. Right. So she. 17:21 Wes: That's really interesting. Yeah. He's a very literal person. And it's like, well, I'm going to unpack the literal significance of the attitude that you have. And part of it. It's an attitude. One thing I also wanted to say, it's an attitude of abandonment. So it is on top of the abandonments that she's feeling in the sense of not having her home and her home country, not having her family and now losing him at the level of, you know, he's going to have another woman, but also she's been psychologically abandoned, which, of course, he was never there to begin with. But she's. She's realizing that. Abandoned in the sense. Right. He makes no. We never see him in the play, make an effort to say, oh, I'm sorry, or it's going to be all right, or he plays no soothing, comforting role to her. The first time we see him, he's already just fed up, and it's like. Or we don't see him appealing to Creon, and we don't hear about him having appealed to Creon to say, you know, hold on, let me try to fix this. And you could assume that went on or not, but I think the. The implication is that he just doesn't care that much. He's ready to see her exiled by Creon and not make any intervention to save her. Which is. Which makes the deus ex machina at the end of the play all the more poignant. Right. Because it's a It's a powerful inversion of the wish to have someone intervene something that he does not do. So again, a psychological abandonment. And I think what the end of the play points to is the only because. Right. Euripides was criticized for the deus ex machina thing by Aristotle and by many others. As you know, it's unrealistic, it's cheap. What are you doing? Right. And they would literally on stage, they would have a mechanism to raise something above the stage and a God would come down. Or in this case, she's on the chariot. Right. And save. The tragic hero is supposed to suffer an ill fate. But in this case, for Euripides, some of these tragic heroes, they just get saved at the end. It's like, what are you doing? It's either cheap or you just have to read it as very avant garde. I think clearly he's just doing something quite avant garde for his time. But what I will say about the deus ex machina in this case is that again, it's a powerful symbolic visual inversion of abandonment. She's still alone in a sense, but she has her. The chariot of the sun. She's back home in a sense. Right. Her sun is her grandfather and that's the only place she could go. 19:47 Erin: Yeah, I think that's a great point. You know, one last thing I wanted to just focus on in this exchange between Jason and Medea, or maybe more than this, but is at the top of page 66, around line 589. He's just said, and I think we made mention of this before that or sorry, she has just said that if you were a man of honor, you should have won my consent to this new marriage instead of keeping it a secret from your own family. So you should have told me about this before. And he says, oh yes, you would be supporting this proposal wholeheartedly, I imagine, if I had to told you about the marriage. Another moment of sarcasm. If I had told you about the marriage when you can't bring yourself even now, to abandon the anger that sears your heart so you know better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. He was just going to go ahead and do what he wanted to do anyway. And she says this was not your motive for saying nothing. I really like this. It was marriage to a foreigner that you felt would detract from that great name of yours as old age drew near. And then he kind of tells on himself. He says, be assured of this right now. No woman's charms are the cause of this royal match I have made. No, as I said, before now, my intention was to make you safe and to father princes who would be kindred to my own sons and so provide security for our family. So he almost completely ignores what she just says. Right. So. So he's saying, well, I couldn't tell you because you would never have agreed to this. You know, I did this for you. But also, you hate this plan and you never would have liked it. It. And Medea says, no, it was, you know, you didn't want to say anything about this to me, and it's all about the fact that I'm a foreigner and you wanted to make your name here and not be associated with me anymore, so you wanted to just cut me off. And he completely. And I. I think it's. This is my theory here. He almost plays a word association game with what she says. So he follows it up by kind of changing the subject and saying, it's not because I'm in love with Creusa, which is like classic. Classic, like, he's definitely in love with Creusa kind of tactic. Right. Because it's a non sequitur, what follows. And I think that it's Medea's use of the phrase old age or whatever in the Greek. Right. That triggers this word association in his own head that makes him defend himself against the charge basically, of running after a younger woman. 22:08 Wes: Interesting. 22:08 Erin: So he's. He's like cottoned on to this phrase and then he's using this sort of preemptive strike, which is, of course, exactly what's making him look guilty. Right. Beside. No, no, no, it wasn't because it was, you know, I'm running after this younger woman. Right. And of course, meanwhile saying also that his motivation was to make her safe. But by doing this, you know, this entire plan, even if it went according to plan and she was fine with it, for some crazy reason, he's made her expendable and thus inherently unsafe. He's not my favorite. 22:39 Wes: I'm just as critical of Medea as I am of him for different reasons. That's all. 22:44 Erin: Just as critical. You don't think she's. 22:47 Wes: Well, just. Just because she's badly treated, that's all. Just because she. 22:50 Erin: Well, right now she's only. She's kept it in the family. 22:54 Wes: She already murdered her. Yeah, she. She's telling you, you know, it's sort 22:57 Erin: of like a help yourself situation of it's just your own family, but it's. When you kill people outside the family, like Creon and Creusa, they're kind of 23:03 Wes: In a Bonnie and they've been in a Bonnie and Clyde type situation. Yeah. Running off and killing people and wreaking havoc. 23:10 Erin: And now he wants to go straight and marry. Marry the daughter of a police officer or something. I don't know. 23:18 Wes: The whole, you know, the whole project was to get his rightful kingdom. That. That was the whole point of all the fleece stuff and her helping him. And that failed. So now he's on to plan B and Medea is no longer relevant to his career aspirations, let's just put it that way. The next thing that happens is. So this is. I'm looking at 67 to 68. The chorus praises. And I think I mentioned this in the. One of the first two parts of our discussion mentions that. So the strophe says, passions beyond measure bring neither glory nor greatness. So they're pointing to the way the conversation ended between Medea and Jason before he exits is she basically says, go screw your bride. You'll regret it. That's in so many words. That's what she says. Why don't you go? Yeah. He says, you're indifferent. All the advantages that I'm getting this way. And she's like, go, just go off and have sex with your bride. And that's when strophe seems to be critical of her right in talking about passions beyond, beyond measure. And then it'll praise a peaceful marriage. So may I never love a stranger and have that inflict me with moves, but rather have a peaceful marriage and let love show respect for marriages where peace reigns and judge with a shrewd eye the loves of women. Then the strophe. That's the antistrophe. Strophe. May I never know. Exile. So we get all these things thrown together, the kind of a critique, the idea that love must be tempered, our passions must be tempered, but also that if you are going to take the risks involved in love again, you need these anchoring points. You can't simply be stripped of your homeland, your city, your friends. There's no friend to show you pity when you have suffered. Suffering's worst quote unquote. Because if you love right, you're going to lose. You're definitely going to experience loss. And when you experience that, you need something to fall back on. You need a wider social safety net, let's put it that way. Sit down, do a Bonnie and Clyde thing. Don't just run off with a stranger, murder up some people and then find yourself in the aftermath. So the larger interesting theme here is the fact that the story is Also at a more general level about the perils of abandoning affectionate familial attachments for sexual attachments. The thing that people do when they leave home and go get married, you know, getting rid of what's familiar the family with a lover that is a stranger. I mean, this is one of the things that the chorus is highlighting here. May I never simply just fall in love with a stranger. It's a really odd paradox. They are a stranger, and yet you're going to have this intense feeling for them that you don't even have for your own. You know, you don't have it in the spirit with the same. Right. Intensity in. And in the same sexual way as you do for your own family members. So it highlights something really odd about erotic and romantic love and the way in which it has to be balanced out with affectionate ties to family members. 26:22 Erin: Yeah, I like that a lot. I mean, in fact, it's necessary that they are a stranger in a way. I mean, not just in a sort of psychosexual kind of. 26:29 Wes: Well, yeah, but yes, there's some genetically necessary. 26:33 Erin: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But also, like, this is. This is the seat of those kinds of passionate feelings is that, you know, there's a, you know, whatever we want to call it, a yin and yang quality right. To the relationship. That's what creates the spark. I mean, you know, and you could argue that in. In heterosexual relationships, like, someone of the opposite sex is always going to be a stranger to you because they don't share this understanding on some cellular level. Right. So that seems really true in a way. The Bonnie and Clyde thing, too. And this peaceful marriage. This sounds really boring. I mean, they're advocating for this, but what's funny is that this doesn't. Just like the marriage to a cousin or someone you're too familiar with spells disaster. Peaceful marriage spells the end of Greek tragedy, for one. You know, there's nothing. There's nothing dramatic in peaceful marriage where nothing happens and everything is okay. So, you know, the chorus is sort of, in a strange way, arguing for their own obliteration if they're repeatedly arguing for what the kinds of good behavior they hope to see in the world. I mean, of course, this is. This is impossible. People aren't capable of behaving well all the time anyway. Yeah. I mean, that's why Bonnie and Clyde is such a. Such a fun movie and a good story. So then, right after the chorus finishes, Aegeus comes in. This is an old friend, a very old friend. Someone who doesn't Know anything that's really happened in Medea's life, but is for some reason just stopping in for tea. Hasn't seen her in many years. I don't know how they know each other. Maybe he was in Colchis on a business trip. 28:15 Wes: Well, you know, I think they're famous people. I think they saw each other at the Oscars or something. They both. 28:19 Erin: Oh, okay. Okay. Well, this is where. 28:22 Wes: So he's a king of Athens and she's a famous criminal. 28:26 Erin: Right, Right. 28:27 Wes: Yeah. How do they know each other? 28:29 Erin: Yeah, yeah. Business trip to Colchis. I don't know. The G8 summit. The Greece 8? I don't know. No, Colchis is in Greece. Okay, whatever. The ancient world summit. The. Aw. You know, you mentioned that this is a deus ex machina element to the play. And I think, if I remember correctly, in part one of our discussion, I talked about how this reminds me of the Coen brothers a little bit. Medea. Certain Coen brothers elements here. This is the scene that I'm thinking of as a really Coen brothers type scene. And I can't help but think of Fargo. The scene in Fargo where Marge has lunch with her friend from high school, the Asian guy who. She's pregnant, and they have lunch at the buffet, and he ends up kind of confessing his love for her. And there's all this really weird stuff that happens in that scene. And it's in the middle of all of this, the murder plot and everything happening with the investigation. So it's this sort of, like, slow moment that a lot of people I know when Fargo came out were like, why is this in the movie? Like, this seems like the only. I mean, it's a funny scene, but it's. And it's kind of crazy and it seems sort of expendable. Like, why does this guy suddenly show up? And of course, famously, I think Roger Ebert said, no, this is where Marge gets the idea that the William H. Macy character was lying to her. So Marge has this fundamental goodness. She doesn't understand that maybe she needs to go back, that William H. Macy's character might have been deceptive. And it's because she has lunch with this old school friend who ends up lying to her repeatedly about things that don't really matter, that she gets the idea to go back and re interview him. And that's kind of what breaks open the case. But this is very subtly done. And I think this scene, like, I think the Coen brothers had to have read Medea somehow because they. This scene has the exact same function. Yes. It has the more obvious way out for Medea. And one thinks that that is the hinge of the scene. Right. She has a place to go now. So there's a much more obvious element of the plot that this contributes to. But I think that Aegeus is the one who really gives her the idea to kill her kids. And this is the point at which the story really becomes. The mental story switches from I'm going to kill Jason to no, that's not going to hurt him the most. What's going to hurt him the most is killing the kids. So I just immediately understood this through the sort of Fargo paradigms. I'm sorry, it took me a long time to get there, but I felt like I had to explain that where it was just this really strange, total recognition, like, oh, this is just like that buffet scene in Fargo. 31:21 Wes: Well, how does she get that idea? From Aegeus. 31:23 Erin: So when Aegeus shows up, he's just been. He's on his way back from seeing the oracle, and she asks him, why did he go there? And he says, children, to ask how I might father offspring. Medea says, what? You mean you've been childless for all these years? And he says, I have no children because some God has willed it so he's married, and still he doesn't have children. So he's gone to the oracle to tell him what's wrong. He's made this journey. And she intuits that. That one of the ways that she might assure her being taken in by Aegeus is to say that she can offer him children, that she could put a stop to his childlessness and give him the power to father sons. And this is really what convinces him. He says, there are many reasons why I'm ready to oblige you in this request. That is her request to come to Athens, chiefly the gods, and then your assurance to me of the birth of children. For in this matter, I confess myself completely helpless. So he's made this effort to go all the way to the oracle to try and figure out what's wrong, why he doesn't have children. And then the assurance of children is really what makes him want to take Medea in. First, of course, you know, the gods, and then. Then what he's going to get out of this. And so I think this is the moment where Medea realizes, like, oh, Aegeus is really depressed because he doesn't have kids. Kids, because there's nothing worse than being a father with no sons, I guess. And this is like, okay, now she's changing her. The direction that she's moving in after the scene, after this is when she starts talking about killing the kids. The nurse has made mention of keeping the kids away from her because the nurse realizes that she is dangerous and might harm them. But this is the point at which what Medea says out loud starts to change. And she realizes there's a way to hurt Jason worse than just killing him. And this is it. 33:16 Wes: Yeah, that's really interesting because this scene importantly parallels her scene with Creon. She's engaged in both scenes in convincing a powerful man to let her do something with respect to location. Right. Creon, it's let me stay one more day with Aegeus. It's about, let me come stay with you, let me come over. 33:39 Erin: That's right, yeah. 33:40 Wes: And also she has to engage in a bit of rhetorical finesse to persuade them in both cases. And that rhetoric, I think, as you're pointing out, involves children. So in the case of Creon, it was, you know, have pity on my children, let me stay a day. And in this case, well, she does two things here, right? She's promising to help him have children. She also promises, I think she suggests that she can interpret this cryptic message that he's gotten from the oracle that he doesn't really understand. But in any case, she says, I can use my charms, quote, unquote, her magic, to help him father sons. But then she asks something of him, and this is where she has to be persuasive. She wants him to promise. She wants him to actually make an oath that he can't go back on, to let her come to Athens. And in light of her experience with oath breaking, you might say, okay, well, it's understandable. She, I mean, she wants someone to say they're gonna, you know, it's, it's, it's a double edged sword, right? Because Jason made an oath, apparently, and now he's breaking it. So when, you know, does she. She's putting herself in this position again of asking a man for an oath. But any case, she's right to be very cautious. And he, I think he's a bit. Aegeus is a bit taken aback in the beginning. And then she gives him a very good reason to take this oath, which is that if people come hunting her, he may be forced to become their friend and comply with their demands. Or this is from her perspective, he might end up saying, okay, well, I was trying to do you a kindness, Medea, but here are some people who are now more important to me. Now they're my quote unquote friend. Now I have a bond to them. So she's got to create something which is much more like a marriage vow. Marriage bond. Something unbreakable. That can't just be right. He can't just say, okay, you know, I have a new lovers now. They came here in their ships and they want, you know, they're looking for you and they want to take you away. And then Aegeus sees what's in it for him. What's in it for him is that he doesn't have to make that decision. He doesn't have to say to the Corinthians when they come for her. He doesn't have to make a decision about whether to hand her over. He can just say to them. Them, he says it's an excuse to present to your enemies. He can just say to them, look, I'm a man of my word and I made an oath, so my hands are tied here. So he can abdicate any decision making in the process. So he can let her come to Athens. He can get the benefit of being able to father children, but he doesn't have to worry about being blamed by whoever it is that Medea is going to do something to. Right. Obviously, the implication is he knows she's going to be up to some no good right, in Corinth and that there are going to be a lot of angry people looking for her. But now he has a really good excuse so he can get what she wants and she can get what she wants. So I don't know if that's the foresight on her part. Right. I mean, it was very much clear with Creon that she found the weak spot. I mean, and it's clear here that the weak spot is with, you know, helping him have kids with Creon. It's pity my kids here with Aegeus, it's, I'll help you have k. But also, you need to take an oath. And at least he sees the advantage of that as of getting him what he wants, but also absolving him of any responsibility for them. 37:03 Erin: There is one pretty interesting piece of textual evidence that might back up this claim about her foresight, because she. When Aegeus asks her, what has he done? Tell me more plainly, what has Jason done? Medea says he has taken a new wife and given her authority over me in his home, which I'd like to come back to. Medea says, make no mistake about it. He loved me once, but now I stand for nothing. Aegeus says, has he fallen in love? Does he no longer find you attractive? Medea says, oh, yes, passionately in love. Loyalty to loved ones is not his way. And there was a puzzle in that line for me. Right. Because she uses love twice. Yes, he's fallen passionately in love, but he has no loyalty to loved ones. So the people who are in the state of being loved at any given moment are not in that state for long. There's an instability to love and to his oath. And I think that. 37:54 Wes: And it's erotic versus familial love too, that contrast. Yeah. 37:58 Erin: Yeah. So I like what you're saying there. I think that the double use of the word, at least in this translation, highlights that. Who's to say in the original Greek if this. You know, it's maybe it's almost a case of her sort of overhearing herself say the word love in these two different senses and realizing how quickly one's lover can become one's discarded loved one, that makes her want to get an insurance policy on Aegeus offer. I think that's a little clue that maybe she knows she needs one. 38:29 Wes: Yeah. The other parallel here is that as I divide the play up, the Creon plot point is what leads us into Act 2, which starts with her being in a manic, diabolical, hahaha mode. I'm going to get revenge. Same thing here. This is the plot point that puts us into Act 3, and it starts out on page 71 with her reveling in the idea of triumphing over her enemies. So another repeat of something we've seen before. But now we get an elaborated plan, as you point out. Right. This is. Now she's gonna. She's adding the kids into the mix. She's not just gonna kill the king's daughter and the king. And in fact, she's, you know, in the original plan, at the Beginning of Act 2, Jason was in the mix. She's gonna kill Jason, the king and the king's daughter. Now it's the king's daughter and her own children to wreak havoc on all Jason's house. So she has gone from kill Jason to let him live and suffer from not having a quote unquote, house a lineage. 39:31 Erin: And it's a much more effective plan when you think about it. You know, you don't wanna put him out of his misery. You wanna make sure that he's gonna be tortured forever. 39:38 Wes: Yeah. I have a very sexist title for this section called Triumph of the Shrill. Oh, it's just because it rhymes with will. I just couldn't resist it. But really, all it is, it's just she is. It's another great manic moment for her and imagining wreaking havoc on Jason's house. And I'm not going to suffer the mockery of my enemy or. She says, to suffer the mockery of my enemies is not something I will tolerate. No one will think of me as a quote unquote, weak and feeble woman. And then she says, it's people like that, you know. Right. So I am not. I am a generous friend, but I'm an enemy to be feared, is the upshot of what she says. And that is the key to fame. 40:22 Erin: Yes, exactly. 40:23 Wes: And this has come up a few times. Jason's like, you know, I helped you be famous over here in Greece. You know, what about that? And he's also. He's motivated by that importance of fame and reputation. And here, once again, yeah, she's going to guard her reputation well. 40:42 Erin: And I like what you're pointing out about the similarity of the pattern, because with Creon, she has to kind of degrade herself a bit. She has to beg. Right. She has to put herself in the supplicating position, which is humiliating to her because she's. She should technically be higher up in the status chain even than Creon. 41:02 Wes: Right. 41:02 Erin: Because she's divine. She's part divine. She knows that she has more powers than these people. She's a sorceress. She's right. So she then has to kind of recover from that, it seems, from being in a position which kind of challenges her ego by having this, you know, what you're describing as this sort of manic moment of plotting and bouncing back and Aegeus as well, like, she needs something from him, so she has to kind of offer him something. And maybe this is less complicated for her because she, of course, doesn't hate Aegeus, but there is something in, I think, the telling of her shame that inspires the manic response after. And I do really like. And I, you know, I just want to point out that, you know, she gives a really succinct summary of what he's done. When Aegeus asks her, she says he has taken a new wife and given her authority over me and his home. And that's. This is another kind of angle that we haven't really heard expressed prior to this, I don't think, which is that, of course, by now, marrying Creusa and casting off Medea, even if she were allowed to stay, which she does subsequently tell Aegeus that on top of this, she's been exiled, so she now has nothing. If she were allowed to stay, she would have to be subject to this new woman, this younger woman, this less experienced woman, this less quote, unquote, gifted woman in what was formerly her own home, and she would have to now take a subservient position to this. You know, I'm imagining her as like a girl. 42:32 Wes: Yeah. 42:32 Erin: Though she's not supplicating and getting on her knees and begging in the way that she was with Creon. I think, like the mere rehearsal of what's happened to her and the fact that she harps in this particular instance with Aegeus on the status hit, specifically that she's taken, this triggers her to kind of like, live it in a more present way when she has to tell the story. And that then causes the manic defense or the manic moment to then be triggered right after. So I like the fact that both of these kind of have the same. Like, you're pointing out that symmetry, which I hadn't noticed. 43:09 Wes: Yeah. And I think in light of what you just said about her now being a concubine to Jason once he has a new wife and subject to the authority of that new wife. This is actually the introduction to the Davie translation makes something of this. Euripides is known for tying the plots of these retelling of myths to contemporary Athenian concerns. And apparently it wasn't too long ago in Pericles Athens, that there was a law passed that the sons of foreign wives could not inherit. 43:43 Erin: Wow. 43:44 Wes: Even Pericles himself, who had a foreign wife, was forced to marry a native Athenian. So I think they. Yeah, they changed laws about inheritance. So all this stuff is a social commentary, is meant to be unsettled. It's meant to be social commentary and it's meant to be unsettling. And in fact, the way this scene ends, I call this section Athens Embarrassed. The chorus is now uncomfortable with the fact that Athens has. This is going to be tied to Medea, Right. It says, Athens is the place where love sits by wisdom's side, inspiring all manner of excellence. How could Athens give someone who kills their children a home? So this is meant to be a very unsettling scene for Athenians. By the way, before it goes into the bit about being embarrassed on. On Athens behalf, the chorus leader says, please don't kill your kids. So they are trying to dissuade her from doing that. But then they move to this concern about the reputation of Athens, which again, ties into this larger concern that Medea has about her own reputation and the mockery of enemies and all that. 44:56 Erin: Well, and I think this something that you were pointing out about, and I'm gonna mischaracterize what you said in part one, but insofar as we can see Athens as being the sort of representation of logic, you know, I do. I do think that this is a kind of a full circle moment, because I do take what Medea does, the killing of the children, as an almost hyperlogical conclusion based on a cold observation of the facts and of what will hit Jason the hardest. So she almost takes her emotions and personal concerns off the table in making this decision. And even knowing that it will hurt her more than anyone, she decides that she still has to do it to get back at Jason most effectively. So it's a sort of hyperlogical motivation on her part. And also this idea of taking what Jason has done to her literally and the motivation there of a kind of hyper logic. So it's kind of fitting that she should then go to Athens. Athens, I think, you know, this is. It's. It's sort of the hyperlogical crime that looks like the hyper emotional, irrational crime that seems to have a fitting home in a place like. Like Athens. Maybe. Like they don't want to think of themselves this way, perhaps, but this is in a way, the expression of Athens taken to a kind of logical extreme or something like the full circle moment of the irrational rational. 46:25 Wes: Yeah, I think you're getting at a very important theme. And of course, this is what later philosophers picked up on. And Euripides himself is grappling with this question of the conflict between reason and love and rationality and irrationality. But he's accused of being a spokesperson for the Socratic and for the logical and for the overly rational, even though his plays are often explicitly concerned with that conflict. So. Right. So Nietzsche, he's the villain for Nietzsche. He represents a turn from the Dionysian to the Apollonian, I will say that. So I think Euripides is quite careful about the way he has the chorus portray this. They talk not just about wisdom. Right, Sophia, as in philosophy, but also love and wisdom sitting side by side. So we have the two complementary principles and they're supposed to get along. Logic, reason and love, reason and passion. Athens is supposed to be the place where they get along. And if you look at Medea and Jason's conflict as having something to do with a conflict between passion in its most extreme form and reason in its most extreme form, then why would. Would One of them end up in Athens. What does that mean for Athens? That one of them would end up in Athens. Athens is supposed to be the place of temperance and balance, not bipolarity, borderline personality disorder. 47:54 Erin: But anyway, too much temperance, I guess, produces. 47:59 Wes: Right. As possible. 48:00 Erin: Yeah, right. 48:01 Wes: And that is what it is, a critique. Right. Jason is casting himself as a temperate, practical person. So you can read some of this as a critique of Athens. And one other thing I will say, speaking of the Dionysian, is that this whole theme of someone saying, you better respect my authority, or really, you better respect my reputation or you're going to reap the whirlwind. That is a repeated theme for Euripides. So for the Bacchae, for instance, in the Bacchae, the whole inciting incident is that they're not paying Dionysus enough respect. They are saying he's not really the son of Zeus, he's not a God. And then Dionysus comes down and kicks some ass. Right? And then Pentheus ends up getting dismembered by the women who have become Dionysus's followers. So there's a whole parable there in respecting the instinctual side of one's nature, the Dionysian side of one's nature, lest one be destroyed by that. So I just wanted to put that in here. This whole idea of respecting, honoring someone who deserves that honor and respect or suffering vengeance. And it's not just the Bacchae, of course, they're multiple plays, but this is a preoccupation for Euripides. But yeah, Athens also has something to fear here. Athens. So he's drawing in the audience into this predicament of. Of honor and respect. Is the status and honor of Athens compromised by this association? It ups the stakes. 49:32 Erin: Bonnie and Clyde May. Welcome to your town. 49:38 Wes: Okay, so that ends part four of our discussion of Euripides. Is it Euripides or Euripides? 49:48 Erin: Say quickly and then no one will know. Know. That's my solution for everything. 49:51 Wes: So that ends part four of a discussion of Euripides. Of Medea by Euripides. 49:59 Erin: Solved it. 50:00 Wes: So we're going to have two more parts, five and six. We will be discussing how Medea makes. 50:08 Erin: Nice, but only for now 50:11 Wes: how they all just apologize and make up and nothing bad happens. Yeah. To discuss how Medea deceives Jason, does all her killing and escapes. It's really. 50:23 Erin: Next time is a bloodbath. 50:24 Wes: It's the funnest part of the play. 50:26 Erin: Yeah. 50:26 Wes: So thank you. 50:28 Erin: Thank you. For an easy way to do that, go to subtextpodcast.com patreon.com subtextpodcast please send your questions, feedback and episode requests to [email protected] if we get enough questions, we'll do some bonus Q and A shows for subscribers. You can also find us on Facebook subtextpodcast and on Twitter enjoysubtext.