Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor - Caleb Campbell (audio podcast)

Caleb Campbell joins Bob and David to discuss some of the content in his book, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor (InterVarsity Press, 2024). Caleb believes that while it’s possible to be both a Christian and hold Christian nationalist ideas, Christian nationalism itself is an unchristian worldview, rooted in the desire for power that is irreconcilable with the Christian faith.We recorded the first part of this interview on August 29, 2025. This was before the assassination of one of the leading voices of Christian American Nationalism, Charlie Kirk. In light of that devastating event, we thought we’d table the episode and then revisit with Caleb and get his thoughts. So the first part of this interview is from last year, and the second part is from this year.* Caleb shares his personal story of how people in his congregation became more strident about political issues and how he suffered relational fallout because of it.* What is Leviathan? And why does Caleb think that American Christian Nationalism is “Leviathan”?* Many feel that the actual Leviathan that has gripped the country is liberal progressivism. Is Caleb equally concerned about what’s happening with the secularist Left?* Politics seems to always revolve around anxiety and rage. But Christians should know better. We follow Jesus, who constantly told us, “Do not be afraid.” How do we help people move away from being so anxious and angry?* How do we engage with people who have become even more strident in light of the awful assassination of Charlie Kirk?* How is AI imagery creating iconography that creates a heretical syncretism of Christianity and Americana?* In the book, Caleb offers a “Field Guide for Responding to American Christian Nationalists.” The loose structure of our conversations looks like this:1. Clarifying Questions2. Possible Shared Values3. Shibboleths (vs Red Flags)4. Good things to honor, and then5. “Humble Subversion” with the gospel of Jesus Christ.* We reflect on Galatians 6:1-2, “If anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.”Scroll down to learn more about Caleb Campbell.Thanks for listening!If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends!Your hosts are Dr. Bob Robinson and David Loughney. For further resources on reintegrating all of life with God’s mission, go to re-integrate.org.Caleb CampbellCaleb Campbell is Lead Pastor at Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix. Check out Caleb Campbell’s Substack, also called Disarming Leviathan.In the early 2000s, Caleb was invited to play the drums with one of the bands at the church. He met Jesus through a friendship with someone from at the church. In 2006, he joined staff. In 2015, he was called to serve as Lead Pastor. Caleb is the Director of the J29 Coalition, which seeks to equip pastors to “recapture the evangelical political imagination.” He also serves on the board of United Pastors of Arizona and as the statewide regional director of the Surge Network. Caleb has a Masters Degree in Ministry from Phoenix Seminary and a Doctor of Ministry from Fuller Theological Seminary. On two previous episodes, we had historian John Fea on to discuss his books, Was America Founded as a Christian Nation? and Believe Me: The Evangelical Road to Donald Trump. These are well worth a listen to be educated on all the nuances of these issues.Where to purchase Caleb’s book: Support independent booksellers! Purchase any of the books mentioned above from Byron and Beth Borger at Hearts & Minds Bookstore. They are eager to serve God’s people with great books. Order online through their secure server or call 717-246-3333. Ask for 20% OFF by mentioning that you heard about these books on the Reintegrate Podcast! Get full access to Bob Robinson’s Substack at bobrobinsonre.substack.com/subscribe