MacMahon. Schlecht, and Krawczynski

All right, everybody, just finished recording with a slew of guests. And while that was happening, a couple of news events happened. The first is absolutely terrifying. And that's that Bronnie James, obviously Lebron's, well, the sun suffered a cardiac arrest Monday during USC workout.

It is in stable condition and out of the ICU. And there's really, it's just absolutely terrifying. And all you can do is, you know, send your, send your good thoughts and your good vibes to Bronnie and Lebron and Savannah and their whole family, because that is, that's real life. All this other stuff that we're talking about is nonsense.

This is, this is real life. And this is a kid who is starting along what is supposed to be, and hopefully still is a very long journey to carving out his own legacy as a basketball player, a kid who, by all accounts, it's not as if I've watched Bronnie James play a lot, is about all the right stuff as a basketball player, not that that really matters in light of this news. But now all that matters is like, I guess we don't know much, but the fact that he's listed as a stable condition and is not in the ICU, I'm taking that as good news. I'm hoping that that is to be taken as good news that seems like it should be.

And beyond that, we're just all going to be, you know, monitoring it and waiting to hear for more good news, but please best wishes to Bronnie, to the James family. And no one ever wants to see anything like this. Obviously, it's very, very scary, no matter who it is. And best wishes to everybody.

The second and much less important thing that happened, what we were recording is that the Celtics and Jalen Brown, according to Wojc, have agreed on a supermax extension, $304 million over five years. That is the richest contract in NBA history. According to his agent, Jason Glucheon, talking to Wojc. This is, I've been saying for a month that this deal is coming, that it do not read anything into the fact that it hasn't happened yet, that they're just negotiating all the bells and whistles that come with these contracts, trade kickers and player options, and we don't have the details about that.

If there's a player option on it, I haven't seen it, again, we're just reacting to this in real time. And so here it is, it's here. And will it be a good contract, a plus value contract? Probably not.

I mean, Jalen Brown's going to have to grow as a playmaker, particularly as a playmaker. And all the jokes about his dribbling aside, it's his dribbling and his passing and his assist to turnover ratio, which often veers into negative territory. But, you know, I actually think in some corners of the league, particularly the analytics corner, he's become a little bit underrated. You know, I've had a couple of people opposing for an office tell me something along the lines where the Celtics are really going to pay their third or fourth or fifth best player, all this money.

And I know the passing, I know the assist to turnover ratio, I know the end Derek White saying analytics, darling, and so is Robert Williams, like this dude can score everywhere all the time in ways are extremely hard to find. He was probably their best player in the NBA finals two years ago. Seriously, they lost, but I think he I have again, I have a look back in detail in a little bit, but in my head, he he on balance, probably I'll play Jason Tatum a little bit in that series by a bit. Just a better player.

That's fine defensively is he always super engaged off the ball. Maybe not, but he can guard anybody, anytime, any position all over the floor. And when he is engaged, he's a very good defensive player on that end. I don't, I think the contract may not age well, but it may not age all that poorly.

And I don't know really what else the Celtics were supposed to do. I, as I've said before, I never liked this theoretical Jalen Brown for day in the middle of the trade, particularly like a little bit less for Portland, not, I don't think anything really ever happened there. Then I did for Boston. I don't think Jalen Brown on this number makes a whole lot of sense for rebuilding Portland Trailblazers team.

I do think if you ask me right now, Tuesday, July 25th, 23 in the wake of having this contract just signed. If you ask me, point blank, is Jalen Brown playing all five of these years as a Celtic and you're forcing me to say yes or no, I would say no. I would say that you get traded sometime between now and the expiration of this contract. Don't feel strongly about it.

Um, but that would be my guess just because it is a lot of money. The Celtics now have a hundred million dollars a year. Once Tatum's New Deal kicks in committed to two guys with, with somewhat overlapping skill sets. And that's fine.

You don't always get Shaq and Kobe. Um, you don't always get the perfect Jamal Murray, Nicole, you'll get sometimes you get two wings who both like to do the same stuff for similar stuff in different ways. And you just have to make it work. And if they're both good offensive players and good defensive players, you get within two wins of the finals.

It's not like this. Yes, the Celtics have this air of disappointment around them for how this season ended at the hands of the heat for how they lost three straight games to the Warriors and the finals. But this team has been nothing but far in the playoffs pretty much every single year with the exception of the bad Kyrie year where they had high expectations and the Bucks rolled them out in the second round, even second round is like not so bad. Um, so, yeah, I mean, we'll see it's, but it's done and the Celtics have tons of money committed to those two guys plus poor zingus now in a two year extension, which is a deal that I don't really like.

Um, and now they go through the process of seeing what this team is and it's going to be a very good team no matter what. And the other thing is we do have to get out of this like, I guess it's cool trivia that it's the richest contract in NBA history, but it reminds me of when Mike Conley signed the richest contract in NBA history and for like six months, every story about Mike Conley, every podcast about Mike Conley, it was like this, it was like Mike Conley, comma, owner of the richest contract in NBA history, comma, and we, we all say it. Everybody writes it. Everybody just mentions it, knowing that there's an expiration date on that fact that there will be more contracts coming down the line and in three or four years, it will be the 10th richest contract in the NBA or whatever it is.

So like, so Jalen Brown is now going to get sort of dinged with this label of does he deserve the richest contract in the history of the NBA. And I'm not saying that's unfair because currently it is the richest contract in the history of the NBA surpassing the you'll get choose one two MVPs and it's worth more than he's being paid, but like it's not forever and it's just a function of timing and the CBA and him having to make jail around having happened to having make all NBA last year. So we'll see what the nitty gritty of the details is as they come out, whether there is a player option, whether there's bonuses, trade kickers, whatever it is that will all come out in the wash. But the deal is I've been saying for weeks, it would be and now the Celtics have to move forward and see if they can advance further than they have advanced with this group before.

And again, the only important thing on this whole podcast is best wishes to Brian James and his family that is a very, very scary thing. And what follows now is what was recorded as all of this stuff was unfolding in the real world. Thank you for listening. And now the low post welcome to the low post podcast on a Tuesday morning on the East Coast is the NBA is either on vacation or preparing to go on vacation.

And I decided no, there are a few teams I haven't talked all that much about since the off season frenzy concluded or stalled in the cases of Damien Lillard James hard in the Sixers, the heat, the blazers, etc, etc, etc. The Clippers, I guess, quite Leonard extensionals. Well, not a lot of, not a lot of noise about that. One of those themes is the Houston Rockets.

And I have talked about the Rockets in the vein of, okay, Fred Van Vliet, that's a lot of money, but two plus one interesting Dylan Brooks wait, what, what happened? What contracts were dumped to facilitate what broke Lopez? Are there hard feelings here? What happened?

Was there was there was there an expectation? Maybe that did Houston feel like they had it at the goal line and then they didn't have it? Tim McMahon, how are you? Howdy Carter, how you doing?

I'm good. So that's all water under the proverbial bridge Dylan Brooks now makes $20 million a year somehow that happened. I want to put who's counting was say again, 21 and a half, but who's counting? You, apparently, counting Dylan Brooks's money is accounting too.

Very happily. I that's all cool. Fine. Like, we know that this is a way station for Fred Van Vliet and Dylan Brooks and was almost a way station for book Lopez.

And then it wasn't this the team is now defined by these seven players, maybe six, maybe seven, maybe five, we'll see. Kevin Porter, Jr, who to me is a maybe to front office there has been a definite, although he's essentially non guaranteed after the season for the next two. Jalen Green, I'm in Thompson, Cam Whitmore, Summerly MVP, Alper and Shengun, Tari Eason, Jabari Smith, Jr. I will posit to you to McMahon that because of how dysfunctional the Rockets have been, and I don't mean, well, yeah, fine, like on the court, whatever, they just have not been organized, so to speak, in winning in the past three seasons, 17 games, 20 games and 22 games.

I think their stable of young talent is actually underrated and maybe wildly underrated. Those are really interesting names. And I don't need to like, I don't mean to give them huge amounts of credit for collecting those interesting names. That's what you're supposed to do when you win 17, 20, and 22 games in three consecutive seasons and have some extra picks to work with.

That said, Eason at 17 is a good pick. Trading two future first for Shengun at 16 is a good pick. First they traded right there to first with right heavily protected. I guess Whitmore fell to them at 20 because of whatever concerns.

Green at two, Thompson at four, Smith at three, like they've drafted pretty well. And I think outside of Houston, where their fans, something happened to Rockets fans around the time that like Steph Curry won his second MVP. They all just went crazy and assumed that everyone in the media hates them and and under raids them. So outside of those people, I do think it's fair to say like, I don't, I think I think their young talent is really, really good and underrated.

And a lot of people haven't realized that yet because how much of a mess they've been on the floor. Let's leave Van Vliet and Brooks aside other than the fact that they will help this team win games, help this team get organized, help these young players be put in positions where they don't have to do too much heavy lifting where they can have a better chance at success and efficiency. What do you think of those seven guys I mentioned, like they're across a lot of different positions. Maybe I'm just irrationally high on some of them, but who's interesting to you?

Do you like this team? Do you think this team now has a roadmap to something in three, four, five years? I think there's a roadmap to something in three, four, five years. And I think that a big reason you bring in Van Vliet and Dylan Brooks now isn't like, yes, it's because of quote unquote phase two is till the fatigue wants to call it.

He's like, there is pressure internally to win now, right? It's also it's also phase. Oh crap. We all are drafted to the thunder.

Exactly. He was promised a three year rebuild. I mean, there's a pretty logical reason that you just laid out why that timeline was promised. And so, you know, they want to win as much as possible.

They want to be competitive next year. But you also bring in Van Vliet and Dylan Brooks because you're trying to set a tone for these young guys. You're trying to show them how to work and say all you want about Dylan Brooks. But if you talk to grisly's coaches, I tell you, hey, you know, ask Desmond Bain about this guy.

Ask Aaron Jackson Jr. about this guy like, you know, his his work ethic had a positive impact on those guys very early in their careers. So that's part of the reason you bring in a Dylan Brooks because if you're not gonna, if you're not busting your ass, you're gonna have to answer that guy. Now, their young talent, I agree with you, Kevin Porter Jr.

is a wild record. He's him as a starting point guard was a disaster. Him as a six man, I think there's possibility making that transition with the same franchise, you know, given his put it delky Lee, tendency to be hot tempered. Did he leave the arena during a game?

Is that him? Am I mixing him up with someone else? Obviously, you know, he essentially got booted off the Cleveland Cavaliers and made sure I didn't for a top 55 protected pit because of temper issues. That's also the reason he slipped to 30 the draft.

You know, the guy, listen, I feel empathy for me. He's had an extremely difficult life. And he's had obvious challenges. You know, as a young adult, he's a talent.

I think he can be a six man type of guy and have a long successful career. Can he handle that transition with rockets? I hope so. Because if if you can't, he might not get another chance.

I put it like this. I don't think Stephen Silas had much of a choice as far as how Kim Porter Jr was used, you know, when he played, etc, etc. He may adoka is gonna do what he may adoka wants to do. He may adoka might be the most powerful nonfertiti in that franchise right now.

Certainly the rockets desire to reunite with James Harden cool right when they hired him. You know, put it like that. So I also think it's notable that there was one current player on that team who showed up to email Dokas Press Conference. It was Kevin Porter Jr.

You know, sitting front and center saying coach, I'm here for you. So look, you know, he might be he might end up being a guy who really can can, you know, get this kid on the right path and you know, squeeze the most out of his career. But again, put him in the wildcard category. Jabari Smith Jr.

only played a couple of some of the games. Whoa, who I couldn't I couldn't be the record will show. I've been in on Jabari Smith Jr. all the way since a November at Lanell Hawks, Houston Rockets game in Houston.

I've told the story before I will not tell it again. I couldn't be more in. That's not me saying I think he's like eight time all star Jabari Smith Jr. I am 100% sold.

He is gonna be a very good two way NBA player, not like like offense defense two way not too way. Very, very good player what that translates to I don't know. I don't think he's the highest ceiling guy on the team. I don't think he's going to be the piece that ties this all together.

If this ends up being the core of a championship contender or a 50 win team in four or five whatever years. But I think he's a if it does click, I think he's a massive part of it all the way in. Long Japar Smith Jr. 100% and like the kind of the vision for him when he was draft was Rashard Lewis with all defense of potential, which that's a pretty good player.

He was doing stuff in summer league and you don't want to always got to be careful overreacting to summer league, especially when it's a, you know, a guy who started 79 games as a rookie playing in summer league competition, but he was bringing the ball floor, making plays off the dribble, like, put it this way, you could tell he hadn't just been hanging out since their season ended in the day, but he had been working on his game. So why could you see there? You know, Jalen Green, we know he can put the ball in the hole. Just real, frankly, professionalism is something that needs to improve their based on what I hear like, Hey, do you want to live the NBA life or do you want to have a great NBA career?

Let's let's, you know, let's figure out what your priorities are. So it's it's funny you say that. Because the reason I want to talk about the rockets is I am I'm going to write something sometime on Jalen Green and this young court. So I've been talking to a lot of people about Jalen Green.

I've actually heard a little bit of the opposite that that that lifestyle, whatever stuff is a little is a little overblown. And he's like, if you talk to people who play with him with the ignite, when they were in the bubble, they're like, we're kind of impressed by this young guy now, he's got the Instagram stuff, he's got the fashion stuff. So who knows? But I don't let's put it this way of all the young players, even leaving Porter aside, I don't sense a great deal of concern about Jalen Green's professionalism, so to speak, other than like typical young guy stuff of like, does he want to just score a ton of points?

Or does he want to win? I'm actually, as long as we're talking about Jalen Green, I'm super high on Jalen Green. I think and the reason I want to write about him is if this works, I think it's going to be because Jalen Green becomes a star number one ball handler. And I think he can do that.

If you talk to people around the league right now, a number of people have sent me these comps. Age wise and trajectory wise, he lines up right around Brad Beal, Zach Levine, maybe a little ahead of those guys at the same age. Are those guys number one options on a championship level team? No, they're really, really good players.

And we don't know if that's going to be the ceiling for Jalen Green. But I think the kid is 20. And or 21, I can't remember. I gets into a lot of places where you have to be 21 here.

Which is fine. I was also not not above that at age 20. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but I don't think that's like a controversial take. I just think the guy can do stuff on the floor that is very, very hard to find on offense.

And I just think he's shown enough of the right instincts as a passer as a cutter and as a defender. And by showing the right instincts and the right will, I don't mean that it's constant. I don't mean like entire weeks go by where the dude is just chucking up shots. But I think there's something there with Jalen Green.

I think there's something very real there with Jalen Green. He's their best shot at the straw that stirs the drink kind of player, I think. Yeah, I mean, look, number two overall pick, we'll see if choosing him over oven, Mobley ultimately ends up being a wise decision. But like the raw talent is not in question.

And he is 21 now. But you know, you're talking about a guy who can jump out of the gym, you know, has a nice shooting stroke, you know, can create. And again, he's proving a score. He is not proving score consistently in an efficient manner.

You know, last year, average 22 per game. But he did that while shooting 48.5% as far as effective field goal percentage. Now, he wouldn't play with the point guard, you know, obviously, I don't care. I just don't care.

Yeah, young guy playing without a point guard, you're not effective field goal percentage. It's early to really hold that against him. But he's got a lot of developing to do a lot of growing up to do. But again, I 100% agree with you in terms of sky high talent.

Look, we've we've hit on their previous two high lottery picks. I'm in Thompson, fourth overall pick this year, it's going to be interesting to see how much he plays as a rookie, what exactly his role is as a rookie. He might be their point guard in the future, though. And you're talking about a guy who has actually talked to some of the Adelaide 36ers this fall right after they got done playing against overtime elite, they compare it on the sour, just athletically, in terms of frame explosion, it's like Jaylen Brown was the comp.

They're that that that kind of body, that kind of athleticism. He's really got in a start to start, but he's more of a pure ball handler. I mean, can really see the floor. He's one of these guys who if he's getting minutes, he's going to be there's going to be rebounds, there's going to be assists, steals, he's going to get some blocks, his ability to score in a way other than finishing around a basket is ultimately going to probably determine his ceiling.

You know, if he can develop a jump shot, he's absolutely a potential star. Yeah, he shot 25% on threes for overtime elite. And I do think if you asked people within the Rockets, rank the candidates on your team for chances of becoming legit number one option on a good to great team, not necessarily like this theoretical best player on a championship team. There's just not very many of those.

So let's like, but like best player on a very good team. I do think it would go green. And then I'm in Thompson right off the bat already, six, seven, incredible athleticism. He's going to walk into the league as a good defensive player.

The jumper is the is the obviously the question, which is what kind of makes me nervous about? I just, you know, what is he going to be doing off the ball when Van Vann has it when Porter Jr, who I think should come off the bench. To me, if I'm the if I'm email Doka, my starting five is already in Sharpie. It's Van Vliet, Green, Brooks, Smith, Shenguin, and I'm sorry, Kevin Porter Jr.

coming off the bench, which means you're going to be playing with I'm in Thompson. And although Kevin Porter Jr. to his credit has become one of the best catch and shoot three point shooters in the league, I don't necessarily think he really wants to do that, let alone see more ball handling duties to a rookie who's coming maybe for his spot on the team. So and to your point, like we haven't even hit Whitmore.

We I mean, like Jay Shontate, is he even going to be in the rotation? Like, I think he's pretty good. I would try to find minutes for him. We haven't eaten Easton who I love.

Like, I do think email Doka is empowered to honestly say to people, at least somewhat honestly, it's never totally like 100% true. The following, but but to at least say, I don't care what your salary is, I don't care where you were drafted, we are all starting from scratch with me, you got to earn everything. Now, again, that's not always 100%. We doesn't have to earn a starting job.

Dylan Brooks probably doesn't have to earn a starting job. But I do think he's got the authority to also just be like, if you're not if you're not doing what I'm asking you to do defensively, like, I don't care what your draft position is, I don't care what your pedigree is, I don't care what the front office thinks of you, like, I'm sitting your ass down. Well, and you know what, you know, who we can, there's a little bit of jail and green conversation there, our parents and goon is going to it's going to be fascinating to see how he fits with what email Doka wants, right? She and goon is a tremendously talented young offensive big man, right?

And happy 21st birthday today, by the way, I'm going to go on a panel. He grew an institute this summer. So but anyway, like you know, his still kind of working on the belt in that three point range, but he's like a you know, they always want to kind of compare him to a mini yogic, but that's just a wee bit strong. But his ability to, you know, be so like crafty and creative is a, you know, non explosive post player, phenomenal passer, like the guy, the guy really has just this great feel for being an offensive creator.

As a big guy, the question with him has been and will always be how well can he hold up on the defensive end? Is he a massive liability? You know, can he can he fit into a system? And I think that ultimately is going to determine whether he's going to be a you know, a high quality starting center, or is he going to need to be kind of just an off bench, you know, offensive machine who you've got to try to match up against second units as much as possible.

I think he's going to be a good enough offensive player to be a starter. And I think he has on offense only I'm not saying he's going to be an all star, but I think offensively, he has all-star level talent. If you look at second spectrum, for a 20 now 21 year old who has had a pretty high turnover rate in in his two seasons, because he's an adventurous passer and has what I will say is a creative approach to footwork at times in the post, like a lot of traveling violations where he seems stunned that his four step ballet spin around my husband whistled as an infraction. Like, what?

I can't like tip toe around like, who's the cartoon character? He's always with his rapid fire feet like that. He's still an efficient post player because he's strong and and and smart and has a nice touch. And I think ultimately his passing combined with that once he finds the right balance when you talk to people around the rockets the right balance of like when to go for his own and when to really lean into facilitator mode.

I think he's going to be a good off offense player that he's going to just have to start. And also great offensive rebounder. Incredible offense. I think this year, with van Vleet, the van Vleet, Shenguin pick and roll, I think he's going to get catapulted into really favorable passing positions in the short role, and he's going to have to make the most of those pivot into a handoff with green, hit Jabari Smith in the corner, hit someone in the dunkers, but I think he's going to be really good at that.

Defenselessly, you're right. Look, I that's the question. And I just think if, you know, pick the if if if a Brooke Lopez or Rudy go bare is your 100th percentile defensive center, and I don't want to be mean. So I won't name anyone is your zero percentile defensive center.

I do think just on size and tenacity, when he decides an instinct, when he decides to really care about it, and there are real stakes, and it seems in playing with no stakes, negative stakes, minus stakes for years now, I do think he's got the ability to get to like the 40th percentile on that scale. And I think offensively, that will be good. And that may be something I'm sure it may be a little high. I don't know.

But I just think offensively, he's got a chance to be really, really good. Right. And long term, you can say, Hey, there's also some pretty significant benefit to parent him, which Bart Smith Jr, who especially as he feels out, you know, there will be times where he's able to take the tougher up the four or five assignment. And you know, can you plant, can you plant Shenguin against a, you know, guy who's not really a threat as the four?

So I think there will be some maximum flexibility there as well. But again, just in terms of like, is this guy a talented offensive player? He's high, high, high on that. There's not a whole lot of 21 and under players in league or more talented offensively than I'll be should do.

I guess, I guess what I like about how they've drafted is they've clearly drafted for ceiling, like we're getting all the guys who we think have the best chance like wild variability Josh Christopher's a great example, just like wild like he could be a star, he could be a bus, Shenguin, he could be a star, he could really be a bus or a backup like we're drafting for ceiling. And they've done that while also creating a roster of young players that actually makes sense together, like they've taken best ceiling available, but also not done the thing that the Sixers did where it's like, now we have four centers on the team and we have to trade one of them at low value, because we just have to get rid of them. They actually have like twos tweener forwards, Tari Easton, even Easton, I mean, the book on Easton coming out of college was he can't remember plays and that's why he failed to 17 despite having just prototypical NBA wingspan size, potential shooting rebound, he's one of the best offensive competitors in the NBA already. Like, even him, he's being pigeonholed is like, Oh, he'll be a good three and D complimentary guy for this team.

Like there are people around the league and within the Rockets who think he might be able to do more than that if given the opportunity, but if given the opportunity is going to be hard on this roster and even like way further out, with this new CBA teams like the Rockets already have to start thinking about like, can we, we can't pay six of these guys, is it going to be possible to pay six of these guys like you better believe those conversations are already happening in Houston and Oklahoma City and other places that are loaded with young talent. And so all of these seasons are going to be key like information gathering seasons. But I guess my general point that I just want to make is I just think people are kind of sleeping on the young talent here because of how bad it's looked for three years. I like these players.

I like how they fit together. I think they still might be like 13th, 14th, 15th in the last year, which is very good news for the Thunder. But at medium term long term, I just like these players. And I don't I don't think that that's really part of the NBA consciousness right now.

No, and look, kill me for Tito when when he may was hired and they had the press conference said something along the lines, they have four or five young guys on the roster who are potential all-stars. It's like, Hmm, wow. Okay, now that so that's where he's been sold on. I think that's a bit rich.

But hey, you know, I mean, this was before Thompson. So I guess now you could argue there's four guys who have all-star potential. There's like, there's like all stars who are like every year all-stars. And then there's like two time all-star.

There's been an all-star once. Right. And like, I if you're if you're defining all-star by that criteria, like, I don't think that's insane to say that it's a little it's a little it's a little exuberant when some of them have not played NBA game chat. So but but you know, let the guy.

I mean, he was very exuberant. Was it at Mardi Gras when he was very exuberant about the chances to get Victor Vibanyama? Right. Hold on.

Right for me. Right for Vic. Got to have a company and pull that one off. They did not they did not get Vic.

They got Thompson though. And listen, I know that you know, there were people within the Rockets who felt like a lot of years, Thompson would have been a potential number one overall pick. Obviously, he's not the best prospect since whatever. But he's a talent.

I agree that there is young talent on this roster. I do think the idea that the Rockets are going to compete for a play in spot this year is way optimistic. Oh, yeah, this year, like, let me see what the overunder for them is it's 31 and a half when I left yesterday. Yeah, that seems right to me.

And probably they given that what they did in free agency, they'd be like offended by that. But that seems right. That seems correct to me. Right.

And again, I obviously you go out and you you pay a max deal, you know, two plus one, like you mentioned, a van bleat and a deal where I don't know who they're getting into the Brooks, but whoa, that's a lot of money for Dylan Brooks. And you do that to get competitive right away. But to me, like I said, I think the biggest benefit from that could be long term. If those guys establish a culture of this is how you approach the work, right?

Now, Dylan Brooks, again, there's all this stuff that he went off the rails with and, you know, he bit off way more than he could chew with the bra on and made a fool himself into playoffs. But just as far as like, we defend, we work, this is the way we're going to go about our business. I do think he can have positive benefit on all these young guys. He works his ass off defensively, like you can sneer a lot of Dylan Brooks shot selection and all the nonsense in the playoffs and Shannon Sharp and all that.

But like the ball denial, the toughness, the physicality, the fouling is a side effect. But like he works his ass off defensively. Now that you're saying all this, what I'm reminding myself is conceptually I have fit him into this team is like three indeed Dylan Brooks and let the other guys explore their ball handling skills. And now I'm reminded in my brain, like Dylan Brooks don't want to do that.

Dylan Brooks wants to take 15, 16 shots a game on some big role. I mean, I'm just being and like, you know, it's explore the boundaries of his off the dribble game and that that makes me now I'm nervous about it. But I don't want him taking any possessions from these young guys. I just don't I understand that they don't want to give the thunder the fifth pick in the draft that's embarrassing.

They don't want that to happen. You know, I just like I just want a little settle down Dylan Brooks. That's all. Well, and I think the reason that the Grizzlies moved on from Dylan Brooks and were ready to move on from Dylan.

Look, they wouldn't have that they wouldn't get paid that much and Memphis even if they were interested in keeping it. But I think the reasons that the Grizzlies were ready to move on from him are misunderstood, right? The nonsense was kind of like alright, it's it's at the point where culturally, it's time but that was not the primary reason. The primary reason the Grizzlies were trying to replace Dylan Brooks for a full two years, repeatedly going after players who would have replaced him in the trademark and he probably would have been sent out was because of the shot selection issue was because Dylan did not want to be a fourth or fifth offensive option.

Hey, I'm Dylan Brooks average, whatever, 18 points per game. I was like, yeah, an extremely inefficient 18 points per game. And then, you know, at his exit interview, when it was clear, like, Hey, the grist is he's not gonna be back here. He grumbled about, yeah, we had to accept a smaller offensive role.

I've got more than that in my game. So Imeo Doka wanted him. He valued him. Okay, he's in Houston in large part because of that.

It's on email, Doka to do deal with that stuff and get the best version of Dylan Brooks that also creates the best possible scenarios for these young guys to grow. How does he feel about being the fifth option and starting five of Fred Van Blee, Dylan Brooks, Jill and Green, Jabari Smith, Junior and Alper and Shen good probably not great. I don't think he feels any way about that because I don't think he believes that's going to be the situation, but it needs to be. Tim McMahon, who collective two times a week just wrote a fantastic story about shot tracking technology that's on ESPN dot com slash NBA does fantastic work across the board.

It's a pleasure to see you. I hope you get a little downtime as we ease into the prolonged drama of discontented NBA guards. Thank you for your time, sir. Oh, he's a pleasure, brother.

I'll go some egos. Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN and limited as part of your TV package for no additional calls.

Visit activate. ESPN dot com to learn how to access your account or sign up then start screaming in the ESPN app for all the ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. All right, another team.

Well, 18 in the Western conference it kind of had a quiet quiet summer. The rising Oklahoma City Thunder, I guess the biggest news was probably chat home and coming back and looking pretty damn good in summer league. And now the expectations are there for the Oklahoma City Thunder to be more than a play and team may be a playoff team. They are absolutely loaded with young talent to the point that they currently have 20 players on their roster.

And just like the athletic hour user. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. I don't even know where to start with this team.

I guess the biggest pieces of business they did in the offseason are drafting case on Wallace who looked pretty good in summer league. Getting chat home Greenback looked great in summer league signing me teach from overseas to to play some kind of role on the steam. I assume they're starting five is going to be what we think it is. Shae first team all NBA.

Jill Williams. Awesome. Lou Dort. Oh, Josh Giddy and Chutting Green.

Despite the fact that Chut on green played a lot with big jail in Williams and some really that was just a function I'm guessing of summer league although they can. I think they can play together and will play together as a way to fill some bench minutes and reserve minutes. And then off the bench, all hell is going to break loose around who gets those kinds of minutes. But is that is that about what you're thinking.

And look, man, like, I know the expectations are super high. They're over under is only 42 and a half and the West is just loaded. They did not add any one of great significance in terms of immediate impact in free agency or the draft they did by health and shed homegrown. I guess just what do you what do you think like is still a very young team despite the expectations now being there.

Shae's a vet now but everyone else around him is pretty damn young like what's fair to you. Yeah, we were kind of talking about this yesterday on my show down to Donk about like what would you be disappointed in? What would you be like excited about as far as when totals? And I think around, I mean, I think 44 43 wins, I think is in the cards for this team.

They're obviously, like you said, very young, but adding a rim protector and Chet and just a big target for them to throw the ball to I think is going to help them a lot. I think Chet is going to have a lot of dunks. He's going to have a lot of wide open jumpers just because everybody that's on that first unit outside of Dort can create. And I think that Mitch is going to play some with that first unit as well.

And he's obviously a creator as well. And so I think that they are going to be funky. They're going to run a lot of small lineups. They're most successful lineup.

What's the starting lineup we mentioned with Kenner's Williams Center? I mean, Kenner's Williams was jumping center for them in a lot of spots. That was their most successful lineup. And so I think they want to play small.

I think Usman Jang is another kind of under the radar guy that is going to play a lot this year. You know, they they spent three first run picks to get him. And so I think he'll play a lot. But yeah, they're going to play small.

They're going to play everybody. They're going to, you know, there's going to be weeks where the rotations look different. Like, that's how they're going to run rotations. But there's not really going to be a rotation.

There'll be a starting lineup. And then they will sift through these players. That's kind of how they found Isaiah Joe last year is that they just are going to give everybody a chance. And I think that they're still in discovery mode of their roster.

So so the For some of Shea, Jalen Williams, Giddy and Dort, which is a smallish For some although rangey and versatile for the season was plus one and a half per 100 possessions, which doesn't sound great. But after January 1st, they were plus 10 per 100 possessions, which is dominant. Some of that is opponent shooting horribly from three 30% from three. So there's a little luck built in.

But that For some makes sense. It's switchable. There's enough off the dribble creativity. Is there enough shooting?

Time will tell. And as we've talked about before, Mark Dagnell made better use than I think any coach ever of small, small screening actions unpredictable. Who's going to screen for who? He turns Shea into a screener.

He confused defenses made up for a lot of the spacing issues that that lineup could have. And Holmgren totally agree with you. And the minute that he in every summer league game, the minute big Jalen Williams went out and a center position belonged undisputably to Chad Holmgren on both ends of the floor. Here came the lob dunks on the pick and roll.

Here came the trail threes on the fast break. All this stuff and the grid protection is just there. And I think the thing that impressed me the most about him was his footwork on defense in a way that you don't necessarily expect for a guy so big and so lanky. His like start and stop and start again.

Footwork guarding guards on the pick and roll, guarding guards on switches, guarding two on the pick and roll was really, really impressive. Like it's one thing to get move in and move pretty well. It's another thing to move pretty well, slow down, almost a full stop and move pretty well again in sync with ball handlers. Like he's he's gonna have some issues on the defensive glass.

He's sometimes defense with his arms down, which is a no no given how big his arms are and how long his arms are. But his his base footwork on defense was eye opening to me. I think everything you're saying is the reason why he's going to play center for them and not powerful because I think that all the advantages that you get with him as you're alone big lion all of his footwork and his ability to defend the pick and roll. If you put him in power for that becomes less special.

And so I think the thunder realized that obviously he has the length but he's gonna get pushed around. There's no question about it. He's gonna get pushed around. But they're gonna be so fast and including Chet, everybody can grab the ball with the rim and push.

And that's the way they want to play. They want to play fast. Who's the point guard? I think that's who cares.

It doesn't matter who the point guard is. There's no real point guard on this team. Everybody can kind of run that and we've even had Thunder fans question. Like, do they have enough playmakers?

Is there not playmakers already? Like, I think the answer is why is that even a question? Like, why do you even have to have a certain number of playmakers? I think that Thunder one and have playmakers at every position.

And I think that's Chet included. And so I think if and we still need to see it. I think in theory, Chet as the center is really cool. It's gonna make for a really fun lineup.

In practice, will it work? I will have to see. You know, we could in the season thinking, okay, maybe Chet really is a powerful word and they need to find somebody to start next to him at center. That could be a possibility.

That would be disappointing. That would be disappointing to me. That said, that Chet, Big Jalen Williams, Arkansas, Jalen Williams, I can't which one is J. Dub and J will you can.

So here's how you have to do it. J will take a charge. That's Big J. Well, he does take charges even in some of the he was taking down on the charge.

We all get it. And you like to take charges. But they were interchangeable enough that like they can both shoot. They can both pass.

They can run handoffs. They can both dribble. They can both defend fours and fives. That I do think that's a look they can go to for six, five, four, eight minutes a game and just have to be okay.

Now that comes at the expense of the Ken Rich Williams season that we spent on James and all the guys you talked about, which brings me to the first question they have to answer is who is on the goddamn team? So last year they last week rather they waved Rudy Gay, which got them down from 21 players to 20. Little known fact you've got to get down to 15 active roster players once the season starts. So here's my best shot at who's gone.

I got to get rid of five guys. Okay. And I wanted and I'm just going to name the first four and we'll see where we are because you know, you know, the team internally better than I do. Olidipo gone.

Garuba gone. Thai Thai Washington gone. And it hurts my soul a little bit. But Jeremiah Robinson Earl gone if I'm making the decision.

So how am I doing so far? I still have to get one more guy gone. I can't do it. So far so good.

I wonder about Garuba. I wonder about his potential fit as a another big that could play next to Chad because he his footwork on defense is good. He's got a little bit of passing skill. And so I just wonder if they get him into camp and maybe he makes it through.

I also just wonder if they want to keep one additional big between he and Jerry on the roster. And Garuba shot three very low volume but hit his three last year. Now with the ball in open space, it is the biggest adventure in the NBA like anything could happen. He could throw the ball through the backward.

He could take a dribble and dunk. He could hit Sam Pressy in the tunnel with a pass that goes around like you just do that. He could fall over just fall like he could just stand and fall over. You don't know what's going to happen.

I still have to cut one more guy. I don't think it'll be Bertans which will be a popular choice because his contract which is essentially non guaranteed for next season 24 25 I think could be viewed as a trade ship. So here's who I don't want it to be. It can't be Isaiah Joe, right?

It just can't be. He's too good and he does something that they need which is shoot. If I'm if it's me, it can't be Aaron Wiggins like I saw enough from Aaron Wiggins defensively and he shot 39% from three. So it can't be him.

So we're starting to run out of guys because it's not going to be Wallace obviously and it's not going to be Jang. We're starting to get into the Trey Man Poku Jack White just got signed range where it's where it's going to hurt and you know what really hurt? It can't be Poku, can it? No, I don't think so.

I think it's Jack White because I think Jack White could be waived. I think his it's partial guarantee on year one on year one. 600k I think 600k, right? Yeah, so I think they can waive him and they could probably get him on a two way is what my that was like this.

So I think that Jack White's the guy. I don't I don't think Poku is on a chopping block just yet. I think he now he could be by the trade deadline. I think we could see something similar to what they did with Darius Basley where the Thunder just don't like to get guys to restrict a free agency and so they like to extend or they cut him loose and so that could happen.

I don't think it'll happen yet though. Trey Man's another one where you just think are there minutes for Trey? Is he actually going to play? Well, let's let's talk about it.

So we named the starting five. The three guys that I know if I'm trying to win games and they have to try to win games now. They don't have to go all out to win every single game but they got a win. They're a good team now.

They have enough good players to win games. Yeah. I got to find minutes for Joe who's going to play some of my starters to as he did last year. I've got it.

Obviously Jay will take a charge is my backup five and I Ken Rich Williams has to play and it's attempting like to like grandfather him into some like Nick Collison like role but like he's not that old and he's good and when he's plays they play really well. So I'm up to eight guys and that's before I address the fact that probably on a lot of my reserve units I'm going to want one of Giddy and and Wing Jalen Williams running point when Shea is out of the game and so now I'm up to nine and I haven't gotten even to Usman Gen let alone Miseach and Quezon Wallace and let alone Trey Man and Aaron Wiggins like it's going to be hard to play all these dudes. Yeah this is why they they're going to cycle through the roster from the bench. There's going to be weeks where Quezon Wallace doesn't play at all.

There's going to be weeks where he's playing 25 minutes a game. That's and that's how they handled it. Last year I think it's going to be pretty similar and that's not I mean they'll probably have two or three first round picks and next year's draft two which will complicate this even more. At some point there will there will be some kind of consolidation trade just because you can't play everybody but they're an interesting spot.

I think they want to take all these guys to camp. All these guys are going to camp. They want to see who rises to the top and it could be it could end up being a guy like Aaron Wiggins. It could be Usman Garuba.

I mean I don't think Jeremiah Robson will come back but he can have a really good camp and they can decide to keep him. I do think that they are going to give all these guys a shot to actually make the roster and then they'll probably make some trades. They'll probably make some cuts and they'll whittle it down and I mean the truth is like most of these guys are into the bench guys for most teams so like the roster crunch isn't that crazy but they've got some positions to make. Like teams are watching like if some of these guys get cut loose teams are going to jump on them.

But do you think the most valuable guy is? That's that's really good. Yeah. Well you're telling me POCO can't is probably not.

I think POCO is valuable. I think I think there would be enough GMs that would be like all right this guy is strange. Let's see let's see what's there. Yeah this guy does some weird stuff.

Yeah blocks and shots make some passes where you're like whoa that was actually pretty good and then yeah then like breaks the rim with the three. I don't I mean like again Joe won't be cut he would he would get snapped up anyway. You mentioned consolidation I just talked about this with Tim McMahon that all of these teams that are loaded with young players no matter how early they are in their cycles in the thunder away ahead of the rockets in their cycle are already thinking about under the new CBA can we pay these guys can we pay all of them can we keep them together this is of course the original curse of the thunder is can we pay these guys and it resulted in James Harden playing for the Rockets in part in part and it's a little early they don't really have to worry about this until the 26-27 season when some of the big contracts come up but you can bet they're thinking about it and maybe the cap is gonna go up a lot every year which will make it a little easier especially if some of these guys are on just a 25% max but it's gonna be tight and I got to tell you like I may be overthinking it I'm obviously way ahead of my skis on just making these decisions they don't have to make any decisions anytime soon but the guy that I keep thinking about and keep watching and keep an eye on is like is this gonna be the guy that is the centerpiece of the big trade where they consolidate some of these some of these guys into maybe a veteran who helps in whatever it is is Giddy because I know I have my ball handler number one guy in Shea I love G-wing Jalen Williams who's gonna be a secondary ball handler Chet is it plays a position where I just if he hits he's obviously gonna be part of my core Giddy's just one of those guys who shot their two percent from the last year got better knows how to pick his spots to push the ball in transition you go under a screen against me at school I'm gonna bully you into my comfort zone with floaters like he just fine and he's a great pastor and a great rebounder and just kind of picks his spots to impact the game more than you would expect for someone who quote unquote needs the ball and quote unquote is a minus shooter he finds a way to make a positive thing but I just keep I find myself thinking about him a lot in his future on the team am I getting way too ahead of myself yes I think Giddy is such an interesting player because I think that he helps them get into the kind of offense that they want to run more than almost anybody fast crazy chaotic yes inverted pick and rolls or he's the six nine point guard and a little guy screen it for him yes and I and you're this is a conversation that I've had many times with lots of people is that hey Giddy might be the guy to go and a lot of it is he's just such an unusual player and a lot of people don't know what to do with him they think okay I know like Shea all in BA guy yes he's he's the guy we've seen so many guys in the league that play like J-Dub does like yeah that's easy for me to in my head to think about this thunder team with him and she has like this dynamic duo in the back court great you know Chet he's the big guy awesome Giddy he's a six eight point guard that doesn't handle that well but is a great passer and he's not a great creator for himself but he scores enough it's just weird and I think he's picking role efficiency numbers that look him up on seconds back from today are good like better than you would think they would be he is a I mean 16 eight and six for a guy who's 20 years old is pretty wild and to go from shooting 26% to 32% from three is a pretty big deal and he's not she's not like I mean he takes three again but he's he's not like stare games where he's letting them fly like adventurously yeah yeah and I mean he showed in that playing game against the pelicans that he's not afraid either that he's in his ultra competitive so when I think about like a potential trade I don't know I still think that there's like a good shot that those four guys are going to be the four guys on the team and then they can use their picks to have cheap roster spots or they can sign minimum guys or whatever they need to do but that's also a benefit to having all these picks out in the future is that you can you can add money via draft pick as much as you want now it's going to be up to ownership to see how much they want to pay but I would tell people to just slow down a little bit on Giddy because I think this thought is pretty it's pretty common a lot of people think like oh yeah Giddy's probably the odd man out but I kind of think of him as closer to I think he's a little bit untouchable to be honest I just think that he plays exactly the way they want to play and he rebounds like a maniac because they are going to be a little smaller yep they need it his rebounding and his toughness is something they're going to need and so that's kind of where I'm at with Giddy his unusualness amplifies the players around him much more than it takes away from the players around him he just has a neck for finding his way into the right spots at the right times in the right roles so I'm heartened to hear you you say that because I want it's obviously like we're again years away from this they want to see more about how he fits with these guys and how that works and like can he be there I mean I don't even want I was gonna say they're dream on green he's not defensively dream on green yeah but but they're just kind of just like he seems to be in the middle of stuff despite the fact that he can't shoot and he's big and he rebounds and I totally different players I get it but you know what I mean like it's just yeah he just kind of fits he just kind of fits he molds himself into what they need him to be at any given time but at some point like Lusman Zhang if he hits he's gonna be an expensive player you know like it like it like this stuff happens faster than you think it's a great spot to be in and like you said they still have a million picks to use like this team is it's a really exciting place for them to be and I think I guess when I look at the over under and you talked about the wind totals I think they're one of these teams like a much better version of Utah where if fans are expecting the next big leap to come this season like all of a sudden they're a 49 to 52 win team and it doesn't come there are it's probably the most likely outcome of their season that they win about the same number of games and we still feel just as optimistic about their future any year as we do today yeah I I agree with that I think that that it's it's more likely like you said that they win 41 games than 51 games they could jump ahead but they're also I think some of that's going to be the playing around with the roster playing around a plan of figuring out what they've got you know mark that not loves to give funky lineups throughout the season and they're going to do that that is going to happen which will lead to losses you know but it could also lead to them figuring out that Usman Zhang is more of a wing than he is a four or you know finding out that Jack White's a player whatever it is you know they're going to not only are they going to use every roster spot possible they're going to use all the minutes possible during the season to figure out what they've got so I do think that that could lead to them not performing as well as you know fans or people think well you just go down the standings like they're not better than Denver I wouldn't put them ahead of Denver Phoenix the Lakers the Warriors probably probably the Kings got only knows what the Clippers are going to be like you get down to 9th in the West pretty fast like Minnesota is going to win more games than people think if New Orleans ever gets healthy Dallas is something like it's just it's hard and that's fine that's just life that's just life in a very very deep conference where literally all 15 teams well it'll be 14 once Portland gets off a little assuming they do or more or less like trying ish to wing I think the Spurs you can see them hit the brakes a little bit in the middle of the season but what about Utah what do you think about Utah I think I said last week I think Utah I'm going to do the same thing I did last year with Utah which is underrate them and they're going to be like 20 and 20 I mean like I was wrong about Utah again I think they're their lack of playmaking at the guard spots combined with introducing a minus passer and John Collins into the starting five yeah worries me a little bit and I said last week that I think let me see what they're over I think it's only in the 30s yeah 34 and a half I think that's about right like I think they're at risk for a little bit of a step back this year and their fans didn't like that I said that but that that's kind of my gut why do you ask what do you think well let's under have their top 10 protected pick for next year's journey I forgot about that so that's a kind of an interesting one to me I think if you're the thunder you might rather than get the eighth pick or ninth pick again in this draft and then kick it to the next year just because of the the quality of the draft that has been reported on already and then also just the roster spots like you just don't have enough roster spots and by maybe not next summer but summer after that I think you're gonna have a much better idea of what you have and so I think I would rather have six and that's 25 draft than 24 but yeah that's why I ask because it's if they're decent then the thunder could get like the 12th or 13th or 16th pick from Utah well and I think you are I just did the rocket segment with him and I've said this before like I think you're getting like the seventh eighth ninth tenth pick from the rockets who have gone all in to try to avoid the pain and embarrassment of giving the thunder the hot that's top four protected so fifth would be the worst you know I don't I don't think the rockets have I think they've improved but I think everyone around them is improved and like the thunder are staring at I bet if you if you just simulated the system simulated the season a thousand times like the numbers eight pick or seven pick would be like the most likely place where that pick lands yeah and if they can get a meaningful player at that spot I mean it just it adds like this without this conversation again and it will be like man how are they gonna play so-and-so I mean it's that's gonna be what the thunder are for the next you know five or six years it's just they continue to stack young players that have a ton of potential and they're I think next year's pick is gonna be quite interesting so some of that potential has now translated to real actual talent and winning like Jalen Williams by the end of the season j-dub was a big plus NBA player giddy's plus NBA player shave was an MVP ballot candidate first he might be up like it's it's and if home green hits the summer league made me very excited about home green like they're really really exciting we will be talking about the game androids like you do fantastic work for the athletic all over their podcast airwaves and on down to dunk which I will appear on when I come back from vacation because I owe you I owe you one thank you for your time enjoy the summer and you know we'll see we'll see how many players are cut from the thunder between between now and the next time we talk thank you Zach all right let's wrap this journey around the western conference nether regions with the minnesota terminals quiet summer in minnesota torian prince gone troy brown jr shake milton in the keel hollocks and her walker resigns didn't have a first round pick traded a couple seconds to get lintard miller at 33 interesting team interesting team paid nazri which means they paid three centers a lot of money that doesn't seem awesome john kresinski from the athletic how are you sir zakloh and good good to be back here man it's been quiet by ten rule standards and we're not used to quiet around here so oh god don't say so so the perspective starting five for the minnesota terminals mike conley extension eligible jade and mcdaniels extension ink anthony edwards cat still in the team and rude go bear also on the team played all of 75 minutes all of last season all in the regular season because jade mcdaniels broke his hand before the playoffs none of their line-ups featuring any combination of two big men were good last year offensively the go bear cat thing all the numbers across the border bad no matter how you slice the combinations the nazri go bear and nazri town's pairings were all really really bad which is a little bit worrisome when you figure out how are they going to play all these dudes and what's their bench line up going to be how are they going to stagger cat and go bear and still get nazri it's fine figure that out to solve a problem love nazri splendid all around player christmashes good coach um and you know there's just sort of an air of murkiness around how this team is going to play and how they're going to look something and obviously the whole summer there's been cat or they're going to trade cat what are they going to trade cat for a hat cat's got to be trained from the minute they from the minute to go bear deal was rumored it was like well obviously they're gonna have to trade cats their only way out of this jail that they've put themselves in and maybe that turns out to be the case there's something in my gut john krasinski and i i almost am afraid to verbalize it i know the numbers they were you know you know what their plus minus was for last season like overall plus minus i do not i don't have time i had but i can't be good minus three yeah closest team in the league to a flat zero in plus minus which was a perfect representation of their season they were like 20th in offense 13th in defense just a just a man i think they're gonna win more games next year than people expect they're over under is 43 and a half i would hit the over something about their playoff performance in late season play left me bizarrely optimistic i don't think this is a great team i don't think it's a championship contender team i think it's a good team that's gonna win more than 43 and a half games that said they are on my list of teams to monitor for how they start the season because if they start the season scuffling if they're 10 and 15 i think that's when the cat noise starts to build again i think this is a team on a lower plane of existence than phoenix but the same applies to phoenix is to minnesota like i think they need to get off to a good start what do you think of all the nonsense that just came out of yeah there's a lot to get to there but i think it was all really accurate portrayal of where this team is where it was last year and where they hope to go they were underwhelming to say the least last season they had hugely high hopes after paying all the the bounty they did for rooty go bear that they were going to be a 50 win team that they were going to be a team that could win around or two or more in the playoffs that all did not come to fruition for some of it for a good reason carlanthi towns misses 52 games rooty go bear is banged up coming off of euro basket and really wasn't himself until the second half of the season and so they and you had the d'Angelo rustle thing and then you have my conley and they just never had any real continuity and so what they hinged this summer on was let's keep this group together and let's figure it out because rooty go bear is one of the most unique players in the league and it takes a long time to get to learn how to play with him and him to get to learn how to play with his teammates and so there's a belief that if they come in they have a full training camp and everyone is healthy and they stay together that they can win a lot of games in the regular season at least they are hinging a lot of this on a very small window of time when carlanthi towns came back from that injury and nazarid was healthy and they started to get a few wins they beat golden state on the road they beat at land at home they beat uh sacramental on the road um and then they played the nuggets fairly tough in for a five one series in the playoffs and um you're not hanging any banners that way but they feel like it would have been too quick to pull the plug entirely on the two big construction but you are right that there will be all of the eyes on them the first 30 40 games of this season coming up and if it doesn't go that well i think you could see big big changes if if it does go well then they might continue to ride it out for a little bit a little while so the nugget series first we'll start there bruce brown yes bruce brown said on a podcast i can't remember which one that uh the nuggets found the timbrewolves the most troublesome of their four playoff opponents which of course in order were minnesota phoenix lakers heat um despite the fact that phoenix was the only team to win more than a game over denver and that meant with a little that that was meant with a little little snark it was like whoa yeah yep i will tell you that having spent a ton of time around the nuggets particularly during the finals people within the nuggets brain trust were saying that during the finals that the toughest team they faced in the west was minnesota for them now part of that is because minnesota is a weird team that can put go bear on erin gordon and have him rove and bother you'll get you a little bit at the room to the degree anyone bothers you'll catch and they have anthony edwards who has taken to the post-season in the mba like a fish takes the water he's just there he's a superstar just right away um and also i think denver coasted the last month and a half of the regular season and there was a certain shock to the system of oh my god this team is like game planning for us and tweaking their scheme every ninety seconds and playing their best players more minutes and so i i don't know that was partly a compliment to minnesota and partly just sort of their introduction to playoff basketball after taking six weeks of just coasting but i i do think it wasn't just that there was something about the wolves that they found physical and tough and difficult to deal with and again mcgangos missed the series and you know the series the series that's really interesting miss the last game yeah so and slo-mo we haven't mentioned slo-mo just newly nationalized chinese citizens gonna play for the chinese team in the world cup very cool he's a critical bench component for them alexander walker was good for them we'll see how they sort of split those minutes but i think this is a good solid team i just i just don't know what it's going to lead to ultimately but i i think something real happened in the last 25 games of the season yeah i i agree with you zach i mean you look at i think rudigo bear started to figure things some things out to where he could be effective not dominant not utage as rudigo bear but certainly much more effective than he was early in the season carlenty towns coming back gave them another shooting dimension that that they were missing with him out and mike hanley just as an organizer as a guy who knows how to play with rudigo bear who can run an offense who can quarterback them could hit open shots that was much needed they needed a an adult to run point guard for them and and and really kind of organize everything and get people shots when they need it but finally i mean what you hit on i think at the most is that anthony edwards is trending toward being that guy for them and for that's what they've been searching for someone in the playoffs who can take over a series and strike some fear into the hearts of an opponent and and do things even when they are game planning against him and a lot of the confidence and swagger that they got at the end of the season came from that emergence in addition to to cat and rudy figuring things out a little bit i mean i think i thought cat played yokedch as tough as you could defensively in the last couple of games of that series it didn't work out but he uh he really fought and then you had rudy on the weak side and and that gave denver problems if they had not as read off the bench if they had jane mcdaniels if they had kylanderson maybe they win a couple of more games i don't think they win the series but maybe it's a little bit more competitive um and that's what they're banking on going for they're they're like top seven guys are really talented and it's just a matter of can they make those pieces fit together beyond to go beyond their individual talent to a more collective team winning approach i guess part of the reason i was left with a good taste in my mouth was you know carl towns started the playoffs like he always starts playoffs 11 points on five or fifteen shooting 10 points on three of 12 shooting and this is a guy who has i'm looking at his playoff game log three single-digit scoring games in his post-season career prior to the denver series he in games two and three against memphis and what was an epic first round series by timbre with centers at least took 11 combined shots and had nine combined turnovers and 10 combined fouls and his play in games have also been underwhelming i think there's if not a single-digit playing game in their like a 10 or 11 point game and you're just like dude how how does this keep happening for a guy who will proclaim his greatness at every opportunity in front of any microphone thrust upon him how do you keep scoring 11 points and play off games and fouling out and i thought in the last three games of the denver series that were including the only when they had he showed me look he fouled out two of them so i don't want to sit here and say like it's all solved you turn the corner 27 and 7 in game three play 41 minutes 17 and 11 in the win only took nine shots but got to the line 10 times fouled out again you're fouling out guarding yolkich right uh 26 and 11 in 38 minutes in game five the last game of the series fouls out again i just like the way he played those games like there's a tendency when a series goes to 30 that your eye doesn't watch it with the same care and and sort of excruciating details you do a two-two series i kept paying attention to that series in part because i wanted to see how the wolves responded to like okay it's hopeless and of course came out was like we're not we're not getting swept and they win that game it's an overtime game right in game four um i liked the way cat finished the series and it gave me hope that the next time they make the playoffs we will not have this early like are you here dude like you gotta be here yeah i think i mean that's the biggest thing and i think people who have listened to me on your pod and certainly know my work like i i generally believe that cat is a really really talented player who sometimes catches more of the blame than he needs to people i mean he says some weird stuff on podcast everyone so file but people react to what he says in a way that is just surprising to me like why people get so hung up on it but he does have to be more consistent um in the playoffs to kind of back up what he believes of himself as a player and we did see signs of that in that denver series i do think that you know he had he was still getting his legs underneath him from missing all that time with the calf it's his calf is fully healthy now he is very much looking forward to coming into camp and ready to go and not having any restrictions um and i do think that as the season went along one thing that the timbrewolves can look at for optimism of ken this big too big tandem work is cat tried to make it work like he was passing to Rudy go bear he was trying to evolve him and he he took on the yokech assignment defensively um even though he knew that it was going to be really difficult on him and um and he played as sorry he could yes he followed out a few times but i do think if you watch yokech in those games it wasn't as easy as he had it in other series and um and so there are things that i i just think cat is a really really good player who uh needs to figure out how to engage in a playoff series and not sort of get i think maybe two into it and want to dominate too much and then it kind of gets out of it can control if he stays within himself and just plays the game uh he he can be really really effective and and one a and one b with with Anthony Edwards and in a in a match of pairing that can give people problems it's one of the reasons i'm so curious about this team this season is because i i do think there's a there's a road map to it working at least in a regular season and at least like okay they're in the second round and it's like a troublesome series for for a higher seed despite the clear fit issues playing these two centers um and by god for a team that is gonna have played two centers a lot can they get a goddamn rebound they never their rebounding is so bad they were 26th in offensive rebounding last year and 26th in defensive rebounding it's hard to be that bad rebounding everywhere all over the court both and they've been a bad defensive rebounding team for a long and rutico bear was supposed to solve the problems and that to keep rebounded okay they have to get serious about rebounding and some like transition defense and other little things if they're gonna be a serious team well here and real quick second that they have to make a decision on what they're gonna be philosophically because they had to decide whether you're just gonna crash the offensive boards and dominate that area and get the second chance points or get back in transition that was the problem that they were running into all the time they were getting bored neither neither neither of us and so they they have to figure that out i do think getting conley as a rebounding guard what one thing you heard from the timbros all the time is it's not necessarily our bigs that are the big problem it's that the the guards are not rebounding their position and nearly well enough and conley helps a little bit in that area but yes they just have to flex their muscle and and and make and play bigger than they then they did at all last season on the glass for sure even if they are successful in the way that we're talking about like good second round team it's just not going to be possible to pay go bear towns and make daniels and read the money that they're going to have to pay all of them have now gotten their next contract except mc daniels who will will one way or another get a hefty amount of money this guy is 22 years old shot really well from three can defend every position and showed a little bit more off the bounce juice last season developing the way you want in that sense he's up to 12 games never gonna be a massive score i don't think but like a good off you could be a good offensive player it does feel like this is the year it has to work or else i just like i guess i guess i guess i just don't believe the idea that they are just throwing the phone in the toilet when anyone calls about carl towns i don't believe it i do i think even this this is just this is not even reporting really it's just my educated speculation i think if they were introduced to a good towns trade that they could have made this summer they would have made it good depends on what your definition is like it would have been a really high draft pick two really high draft picks in a young player three great picks and two swaps in a young player i don't think that deal was there for them and i think the main reason is carl anthony not i should say that i think carl anthony towns is making 52 million estimated next season 24 25 56 61 65 i just don't think the teams that may want to pursue carl anthony towns at the price that the woes would would have been intrigued by are quite at the readiness stage to do that yet given those contract numbers given how uneven just the world's general existence has been forever i think if a good deal ever emerge they would they would have to consider it unless this hits so well this season that they have to figure out some other way to wriggle out of this financial prison and i do think they're going to be good like i it's just a matter of how good and how quickly do they get good yeah i think this is the prove it season this is the where the rubber meets the road and what happens either at the trade deadline or next summer something is going to have to give financially this is not going to be a team that's going to be over the second apron you know for for most of its existence unless it's going and winning championships unless it's going way deep into the playoffs to do that and so if that doesn't happen i do believe that yeah they will look at carl anthony towns trades they would look at rooty go bear trades they would look at all sorts of different mechanisms to financially make this work but i i think one point that you just hit on that is a key is that right now the wolves want to run it back like that's been their their main focus is you they they want to show the rest of the league that hey we weren't complete idiots like we we think that this go bear towns thing can work and we'll show you that it works but one of the reasons also that they're running it back is they were not going to get bold over by an offer for carl anthony towns coming off of a 52 lock games missed season with all of that uh contract in in the future and the last couple of years there have been injuries that he's kind of had to work through and he's missed the games and so um and then you add in the playoff inconsistencies they weren't going to have someone throw the entire boat at them like phoenix did for kevin dorant it just wasn't out there now let's say that he comes back and plays really well um maybe the the market improves for him maybe those those those offers go up and and maybe that makes the decision harder but i will say this i don't think they had a difficult decision this summer put to them i don't think it was hey will you do this and they really hemmed and they had and they said now we're not going to do this i just don't think that there were many options out there for them but long term it's hard to imagine this whole roster staying together as is and them paying the freight to do that barring a huge run to western calmer finals mba finals uh you know coming down the pike and so this is definitely i think the last season that we look at the timbre was as currently constructed um and and and go into another 24 25 with the same roster unless lightning strikes and and they're in the and they're in the finals and i wouldn't even know what to do with myself uh in that situations act okay i don't think anybody would know a couple of things are sneaking up on me uh seeking at like number one they don't have a point guard starting point guard under contract beyond the season my colleagues are expiring and they don't have another one on the roster if you want to say it's point ant fine i don't know we'll see um so bear's deal not that long no two more two more guaranteed seasons in a player option he'll definitely take in 25 26 we're like a year away from people looking at the gold beard you're like um it's not that it's not that yes or the wolves just being like should we just let it just expire like should we keep together let it expire but these are questions for another day um john krasinski your work for the athletic is just phenomenal second time you wrote a two wonderful stories actually uh surrounding Anthony Edwards super max extension um one about his older brother and another about sort of the just the burden of being the next guy to try to fix this uh go go and read those and if you want to read the deep cuts on letter and miller and others they are there too thank you for your time sir i look forward to seeing you in person always good to see is that thanks for having me and uh lender miller bus for these guys we'll see what happens