I think that experience as a producer doesn't count for that much because the truth of the matter is every movie you do is so Different from the one you just did or the one you're going to do then a lot of what you learned on the last one You can't take to the new one so you have to read the script and know who the director is and how much money you have And then you sort of say okay, how do we put this together? This is produced by I'm Kevin Karchal then I'm happy to be joined today here in studio by Marc Johnson. Marc welcome Thank you. It's good to be here So let's start with your most recent project downsizing tell me a little bit about the film Downsizing is Alexander Payne's most recent movie.
He is a director who I think is probably certainly considered in the US one of our top and most interesting and challenging directors I mean on such things as sideways and Nebraska and election and Our movie downsizing is a departure for him in the sense that it is a much bigger moving and there's other ones Which could almost be called chamber pieces This is a as a big effects budget and and it shot all over the world and it's involves a number of different themes and characters and and I think it's his most ambitious movie in one sense I also think it is his most hopeful movie even though it takes place in the world that's coming to an end We're sitting in office right now with the brassica poster on the wall And you know the brassica is definitely one of my favorite films and this film it has a very different scale But in terms of the pacing and the emotional development of the characters It was very similar. I think that's true I think one of my challenges as a producer and Alexander and I've never worked together before was to help him make sure that it remained in Alexander Payne movie whatever that means I take it to mean that he has very idiosyncratic characters and it's very much about their Quirkiness is about the characters and I think You know downsizing has a big panorama and has an invented world and then I said it has a fair number of visual effects So I wanted to make sure that I could help him that all of that not overrun his up his characters and his character of character moments which I feel confident we I've been been able to help him help him do he's really such an extraordinary director. He fully admitted going into it I've never done a movie like this before but was wide open to Understanding it and was not afraid at any point to say no wait a minute I don't get it. How does this work and have it all explain to him?
Yes, it's a little bit about the VFX and how you and Alexander worked with the VFX teams to create this world with both digital and practical effects Well, we wanted to make sure first of all that the visual effects didn't stand out as visual effects This is not a visual effects movie. This is a movie I think a comedy a human comedy that has a lot of visual effects in it But they needed to serve the naturalism of the movie so Jamie Jamie price our visual effects supervisor who really did an inspired job along with our production designer Stefan Yachella who also comes from a much more sort of Natural physically based world she designed among other things a great beauty and so we all sort of explored How do we make this world in which this movie takes place in which a character is human human characters can actually have the option to Downsized within five inches of themselves. How do you make that world work? So we were always kept an eye on obviously it's a fantastic premise But we wanted to present it as though no, this is a real option.
This could happen. So I'm really pleased that While we have as I say a lot of visual effects on the film I don't think it feels at any point like a visual effects movie Yeah, there's actually that really great line in there from Matt Damon's character where he talks about how he doesn't even really think about Being miniaturized and he just sort of goes about his daily life as though it's completely normal And then he suddenly encounters something and he's reminded. Oh, wait. Yeah, this is what's happened This is my new reality.
Well, we go through a whole midsection of the movie when they are in this this This invented world called leisure land in which we the audience forget that they're miniaturized because Everything is to scale. So it's not like all of a sudden. There's a big hand that enters the frame I jokeingly say we did not make you know, honey. I shrunk back in that day I love it and you did that on the sound stage, right?
We did a lot of it on sound stage this movie We started in Los Angeles shot for about a week there went to Omaha Alexander's hometown and quite frankly all of his movies whether or not They're actually in Omaha are based on Omaha characters and needless to say it's and ironically his last movie is called Nebraska But we so we shot in Omaha for about four or five days and then shot the bulk of it in Toronto a lot of it on sound stage but a lot of it on local occasions and finished up with a week shooting in Norway So the film isn't just about necessarily, you know, miniaturized people interacting with you know, quote-unquote normal sized people It's also about building a world where these characters actually exist. Can you talk about that process a little bit? Well, you know, it's once again You're dealing with a visual effects supervisor and a production designer who who got the joke got the ambition So at one point we we built something called a laundra which is this almost this I don't want to say slum But this this world is another world that takes place at Demi-Mon that takes place within leisure land and it's a lot of people living under Very tight dark Circumstances and what we did is we built it on the stage in in Toronto, which I believe has been called least It was sold to us as the largest sound stage in North America We built it there and we it goes when you see the film it probably has 20 floors in terms of its height We only built three or four I think it's four and then visual effects extended the rest of it and added people to the railings and so on But again, it's we use the research we use was not the fantastical research This was not an invented movie despite the fact that it was but we use real references to say okay I what would this land look like and leisure land itself sort of modeled on a number of planned communities some of them retirement community some of them just quite frankly safe family oriented communities gated communities so the watchword was always Make it natural natural. You know naturalism One of the other interesting things about the film is the use of language and languages in that You know, there are people who are brought out right in from all over the world to live in these spaces So that way, it's very you know, it is very sort of realistic in a way.
That's right It's very international one point Matt Damon's character goes to a party actually spends the night at the party wakes up extremely hungover and says to Chris off walls. Well, that's an incredible party. I've never been to anything like that people There were so many Europeans. I love it.
So let's talk about the mechanics of actually making the film What part of the process did you come in? I I've known Alex and you're paying for a long time in fact we first met I've worked with the writer creator Vince Gilligan. I didn't break in bad with him And we still do but it calls all together But he had written the script a small script that Alexander very much wanted to direct what he was just starting It didn't work out So we've known each other since then and recently within the past five years we had been developing a Film to shoot in Argentina in Spanish with all Argentine actors and crew in fact Alexander and I were going to be the only non non-Argentine element to the film and we're having a great time doing it and Well, hopefully we'll get around to doing it. We both speak Spanish I grew up in Spain and he's been a great deal of time in in South American Spain so that There's something we wanted to do we were having a great time and at the same time Alexander was trying to put together downside and It's been set up at Anna Perna and they were budgeting and it Correct weren't quite sure how to shoot it or where to shoot it and it was costing too much and he asked me if I would get in and help him find a An aesthetic and financial way to make the film and of course if Alex and You're the producer movie you take about seven seconds before you say yes, and You know somebody asked me the other day Well, if you said yes, what happened when you read the script?
Well, if you hadn't liked it and I went into it thinking like oh god Please make this be as good as you know I don't want to be the first person to let Alexander pain down, but as it I've read the script and really loved it's the most original thing that I've come across I don't I don't know how long and so Alex and her and I started talking about how to how to make it and as it turned down at the Last minute Anna Perna decided not to get involved, but I had just produced a David Chase movie at Paramount I had good friends there Alec and Andrew had made Nebraska for Paramount and they they said are you kidding well now like under pain movie star and Matt Damon will take it now And that's that's what happened one of the things I really like talking to produce is about is the idea of finding the budget for the film And then getting the film to fit into that budget. It's a very delicate dance You sort of have to play with what's one of the things are you thinking about when you have to negotiate those ideas? Well, you know, it's interesting I've complained recently that as a producer there is no longer that champagne moment a moment It's like yes, we're making a movie because you know, you'll get the studio say, okay, we're interested But you've got to get this actor and you've got to get this director and you've got to make it for this amount So you get that actor but then you have trouble with the director you get the director and you have the actor and at some point There's no one moment when say yes, we're going forward in fact, you know It's really not until the first day of shooting and often you still wonder are they you know Are they gonna realize I made a mistake and stop us in our tracks? but it was you know, it was a Paramount couldn't have been more supportive they were so happy to have the movie and We were able to we were able to find a way philosophically to shoot the movie to give Alex and Andrew what he wanted In the world that he wanted both in the real world of Omaha and then the Imagined world of leisure land and eventually into into Norway We were able to find a way to do it and and there's some places he didn't initially want to Scout because he didn't think they'd be right for the movie, but we the production designer and I were very smart and in terms of what we showed him so We were able to open his eyes on ways to make the movie in places are very helpful and you know Canada is is Financially viable for a lot of reason.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely How long was the production? J. There actual pre-pro was probably You know in one form or other probably about six months And but you know in terms of terms of active pre-production it was not that much longer than a conventional movie and we shot for just under 70 days Wow, that's incredible. Well, it's interesting I I went to and was still talking of course about downsizing But I went from producing downsizing in Norway finished shooting there and went straight to Atlanta and produced the Steven Soderbergh movie Logan Lucky that we shot in half the amount of time and all in all in one place and just philosophically the two movies couldn't have been more different Yeah, both of them, you know directed by by masters and people I would pinch myself then I was on the set with yeah Absolutely.
I know that sometimes after producers talk about Bigger budget films not always being easier and that sometimes smaller budget films You're able to explore other things, but you know you still are limited by the amount of money and but you actually have Well, it's interesting. I would I would prefer to have a lower budget film than a bigger budget film I'm sure my business manager would like it the other way around but There's less pressure on you in a strange way in a lower budget movie big big budget movies You know we did the Narnia movies we did the book the line of which in the wardrobe and In Prince Kasbian for you know in the 200 million dollar reign and every decision is a life or death of death one And you can't just say okay, let's shoot here or let's get a helicopter go there It's all well as the studio gonna be okay that and run it by this person And if we cast this person how's that going to work as a young audience going to like him or her and it's just it's it's it's pretty It can be kind of soul crushing a point instead of you have to remind yourself You still have to make a you know a good enjoyable movie And the other thing about lower budget movies it gives you a certain freedom, but it rather than saying okay We can fix it with money. Let's get the throw money at ILM And they'll make this work you say okay, we have no money and you have to be resourceful and inventive and which is great because it keeps your mind You know keeps you fresh and makes you feel as though you're really contributing something I think Alexander who is very proud of downside and love the experience of making it I think he dying to go back into it a small small. I'm sure now Let's talk a little bit about you how did you get into the industry?
Do you know what I grew up in Europe? I grew up in Spain and at the time when I was a kid that was shooting British and American movies in English and they needed American looking extras, so I started working as a teenager as an extra and I just fell in love with the romance of making movies I just thought I have to do this. I wasn't sure what it was I wanted to do and I then went to my undergraduate school the University of Virginia that had won my last year had won film course and I realized it for the first time that you could study film very much like you know Literature and that you could explicate a movie in much the same way and I just loved the idea of that So I went to the University of Iowa was gonna get a doctorate in film scholarship not film production but history theory and criticism and at the time they had a fantastic department really vibrant and some really smart smart people there and then I I Decided after two years. I really wasn't an academician and You know I said I'm gonna kick myself up You don't try to get into the movie business I really wanted to do so I went to New York and started Starting knocking around working as a production assistant as in commercials mostly and then I and this is a I urge everybody to try it if that's a direction I want to go in I Applied to the directors the old assistant director training program and somehow got accepted there were six of us accepted that year And then I was assigned to different movies And one of them was a William Friedkin movie sorcerer So I ended up going to we shot in New Jersey and Dominican Republic in New Mexico and Mexico and Mexico and That got me out the got me out to Hollywood by the way I wouldn't have said that I necessarily wanted to be a producer I knew that I wanted to be in the movie visit I didn't think I wanted to be an AD but I was that's what I was doing and at one point Billy Friedkin who I owe so much of my career to said to me when he was putting together his next movie He said look you can be the assistant director if you want but why don't you produce it instead and you know once again I took about seven seconds and said okay, I'll go with that and The beauty of it is that once you're sort of declared as a producer or somebody is paying you to be a producer the industry thinks you're a producer You may be the worst producer ever made but nobody knows and and in fact the first movie I would made a deal with without without freaking was a movie that didn't get made and I didn't know anything about deals I turns out I had to pay or play deal I don't know how I got it so they didn't make the movie and they just paid me the sum for producing it Just one lump sum and I thought this is crazy.
You don't have to produce a movie and you can make a lot of money Anyhow, that's how it happened and and I happened to work on a I was the second assistant director on a Mel Brooks movie high anxiety and I met Barry Levinson there who was one of his writers who was on the set And he and I became fast friends and went off and and I produced diner for him His first movie as a director and then we did 12 movies including the natural and good morning Vietnam and Rain Man and Avalon and Bugsy and had a great run Barry is a really an inspired director and also full of energy He just never wanted not to be directing his philosophy Which I think is really sound is a director doesn't get better by not directing So he a lot of directors sit around and obsess over what they should do next and what's right for them It's own and Barry was like all right. Let me try a young Sherlock Holmes Let me try, you know So we did and then we'd go back and do another Baltimore movie like then men and then go do the morning Vietnam It was a great education What was it like on those early days on set was there something specific as book out to her was it just sort of the entire process of producing and filmmaking That made sense well as it you know, it's not because as a producer you want to be doing something you want to control something If a movie sets running well, there isn't a job for you. You know and in many ways if you've done your job correctly You've set it up you put it together pre-production is really important You've got all the right elements if you've done your job job, right a producer does not have that much to do during production Now because of my background, I just can't not be on the set So I'm they're probably getting in the way more often than not and but I'm always offering an opinion And I think directors hopefully at this point know that my Interest is always in the film and the support of them I really believe that the movie belongs to the director so I want to do whatever I can to support him or her and I And then again you get involved in post-production and then of course in in in marketing But and there's some movies in production that have been troubled I've been very involved and other movies where things are going smoothly and I love to just sit on the you know The outside of the set and look at everything and just sort of marvel at these really gifted people making making something magical Sometimes I think of film schools I think that students are probably get a lot more out of watching bad films where you know things have gone wrong as opposed to always watching something That only watching the film sort of went right. Yeah, no, I think that I think that's true I think it's like that old truism that you know you learn from more from bad movies than from the good ones You know the good ones are these these these things that come together some sort of you know almost magically in the bad one you say well That's a stupid piece of piece of casting or Why would they've shot there or why do they you know?
Why whether it sets that color as opposed to another but was the script ever actually read aloud to anyone right? That's a great moment. We have that all the time and so what were they thinking you know That why would somebody have made this movie and you can always find a reason that somebody marketing said it would be great to put a movie together with you know Marlon Brando and Jane Hackman or whatever whatever it was at the time, but you say well, but yes, but did nobody read the script? I I think that you know what I've often said to film students and I firmly believe this and it sounds like I'm being modest But it's true I think that Experience as a producer doesn't count for that much because the truth of the matter is every movie you do is so different from the one You just did or the one you're going to do that a lot of what you learned on the last one You can't take to the new one so you'll have to read the script and know who the director is and how much money you have And then you sort of say okay, how do we put this together?
So whoever was the camera person on the last film maybe all wrong for this film the the you know the ad on that film was too Too controlling too much of a martinet and and may have been right for that last film because it had thousands of vectors and whatever This one is much more a smaller piece and needs to be intimate and their children involved and you want somebody who's much less a Presence and so as I say you put each movie together as though I'm obviously you know you need to know something about how things were done But but I I think it's a great thing to look forward to for future producers because they can it's not like you have to produce Ten movies before you say you're a producer, you know you can produce your first movie right and guess what? No, we all your producer. Let's talk about your transition to television a little bit You had that really strong background in future films. What was it about TV that appealed to you?
I don't think I knew what I was getting into I had been friends with Leslie Moonbed from CBS actually when the CBS at the time and We talked and I was an accomplished producer and he said well Why don't you try and do some television show the first thing we did was a show called LA doctors that John Lee Hancock Was a friend of mine and had written a movie that I produced called a perfect world that Clint Eastwood directed He wrote LA doctors and we showed it to CBS. They said great. Let's make it So it got on the air as first year on the air and I thought well this isn't that hard and But I learned because we were canceled after one season and I think that if I knew Then what I know now I think the show would possibly still be running We're just certain things about about the storylines and casting or whatever and I learned a lot and then I ended up doing a couple of shows at CBS at a very good added deal with CBS and and Sony and we did a number we did a an ill-fated Television show based on our movie Donnie Brasko called Balcon that just didn't plain plain work But I learned a great deal and in the meantime I had produced a couple of movies that Vince Gilligan had written and he was a good friend and I had found him truly found him in Virginia and He came out to Los Angeles and was working on the X files and we started developing something and we developed one thing A show called Battle Creek that we ended up making after the fact but when that didn't go the first time he came up with the idea of breaking bad and You know, I'm not gonna I don't know what I'm going to say this original about producing television just the vibrancy is so great Is it you and I can be sitting here and we can be talking about a show that we have and say well? What if why don't we do a?
Do an episode about the dog running away right and truly seven weeks later that episode of the dog running away Can be on the air seven weeks later in the feature business. You're still closing deals at that point So you're not you haven't gone anywhere and you know, we can look at it and say well that episode didn't work Let's do one about the finding the dog and whatever and and so there is a give and take that is not just hypothetical But it's it's it's it's going around and and you know that Writers and I realize that's because I've always thought of writing deadlines deadlines for writers and feature business are very fluid Yes, it's not do Thursday, but if the week from Thursday or three weeks from Thursday is not the end of the world in TV It is the end of the world. You cannot do that. Yeah, and so Vince Gilligan for instance The X files was very helpful for him be and this this had great impact on me as a producer and understanding TV in that His discipline came from doing the X files because he up till then sort of a lazy writer and put things off There is no being lazy in television by if a script is due by midnight on Thursday one way or another I'm gonna take that script away from you at midnight on Thursday There's no like give me a couple more days and let me do this and then the other thing is there is a structure a very deliberate structure And and the X files were done for was done for for Fox It was commercial based network and so certain things had to happen by certain times It was really helpful in terms of structure not just for writers But for me as a producer understanding, you know how to pitch things and what satisfaction is needed to become now I started in network television and I was told that a loyal viewer would maybe see one out of three or four episodes of a show I have really that's it whereas now in the the new world of TV.
Thanks to David Chase So I the good luck to work with also is that an audience watches every episode of your show So that a season of ten hours now you can see them all and you can sit down for ten hours and see them all But they watch the watch them all and it just it very helpful and understanding what's got to happen within a certain amount of time So I I'd like to say that people ask which I prefer do I prefer I prefer them them both And I think you end up being able to exercise different muscles and television and in features. Yeah, yeah, absolutely And I think for me shows like Breaking Bad where you have that opportunity to binge watch it You're really sort of approaching it almost like a long film that are just being released in segments, right? And just being conscious of how you can approach it as a cohesive piece as opposed to just you know Traditional episodic television with the beats and the commercial breaks which I love but it's a very different writing experience And I would think it's a very different experience as a producer and it's funny to hear you say that and that you know Some of the structure and pressure is similar to having a lower budget film because you're kind of having to learn to work within a framework And sometimes that's a lot easier than just being given free reign over everything right that's exactly exactly right And one of the things I'm so pleased about Breaking Bad is that each episode was satisfying in and of itself But each episode had reverberations on what was to come and what had happened so that at the beginning of one of season There's a a chart teddy bear floating the pool or an eyeball, you know a little plastic eyeball So what the hell is that well stay tuned you know, so what excited about working in industry? What do you look to for inspiration whether it's stories or just your own creative energy?
Do you know what I've been doing a long time. I'm probably as excited about producing today as I was at the beginning It's different obviously I've been doing it for a while But I love there's something about I'm like a kid I just if we're telling a story that I'm excited about I just love to be a part of it and putting it together And I revere directors a good director is is something marvel It's not something I can do because people have said could you direct it? I could you know I could put a movie together and make sense and you know, it probably being focused and all that stuff But but a real good director can do things that I can't do for a lot of reasons And doesn't mean that I don't consider myself creative. I think I'm very creative and helpful in ways But I don't want to take I don't have that ultimate grand vision and sort of the Mania to protect that that vision and that's what I help out director with this past year We I produce downside I produce Logan Lucky and I produce a small movie in Western Australia That's going to open in the spring called breath not to be confused with breathe Which is a movie that's out now but breath directed by the actor Simon Baker, which is I like into a an Australian to my mom time be and it's about two 16 year old boys testing their their limits and We made it for about seven million dollars and the bulk of it But we really came through from screen Australia the state of Western Australia It's something called the screen west and it was just a different way of making movies and the idea of doing a movie in Australia And being the only American involved in it and and something that I optioned early on was able to put together it It's just so exciting So I'm lucky that not everything I need to do that I need to do today and television or features needs to be Paying the bills there certain things you just say okay, I can I can find a way to To make this work and and I make movies I produce movies very much the way I go to movies So it you know wake up and say you know if you like seeing a big Hollywood blockbuster that'll be really pleasing Or I want to go see a small naval gazing the movie about a you know a guy boys relationship with his grandmother and It's a you know I love being part of it a lot of my contemporaries are pretty angry because they've sort of lost their way and they think the Business you know They didn't get into television in time or they don't know how to do it They think you know the studios where they used to think that they had studio deals those deals are falling by that by the wayside I don't and they also think quite frankly the producers are not respected the way they should be and I think I look at it I say yes, it's difficult.
It may be more difficult. I don't know. I don't think so, but it's just different It's it's not you just got to adjust and if I weren't able to do that and to adapt My my skills to the world today, then I'd probably be Frustrated and angry myself But the truth of the matter is like the landscapes different and I understand that and try and find a way to work with it And I also there's no such thing as resting on your laurels people think they're entitled to this come on You know a friend of mine said the other day We're talking about about rain man And I said something about having done it and and he looked at me said why don't you try winning an Oscar in this century? And you know what he's absolutely right, you know, it's like big big deal, you know rain man's a wonderful movie That's a long time ago.
What are you doing now? Yeah, what have you done for me lately? Right? Exactly.
Thank you so much. It was a pleasure you're getting to talk to you about downsizing and just the world of producing Well, thank you very much I hope I hope everybody listening gets a chance to see downsizing because it's what we we all want It's original. There's nothing like it and one of the things we can cry for a lot of reasons is is a lack of originality and movies and this one Thank you for listening to this episode of produce by more information about the producers guild find us on the bad at www.producerskilled.org You can also find us on Facebook Twitter and YouTube at producers guild in the meantime help us out by subscribing Commenting and sharing wherever you get your podcasts helps other people find us and let's know how we're doing Until next time I'm your host Kevin Fairchild