Welcome to the Play Development Project Podcast. My name is Dave Wright, co-founder and editor of Play Development Project. PDP is a website for coaches who are committed to their, and we provide a huge library of resources which consists of cutting edge insights from the world's most innovative Play developers, coach educators and researchers. If you want to learn from the best and join a community of like-minded coaches, then check out Play Development Project.com.
On this week's Play Development Project Podcast, we're joined by one of our expert contributors from the PDP Network. Hi everyone, welcome to another Play Development Project Masterclass discussion thrilled to be joined by former New Zealand football technical director, and I know he's had plenty of other high profile jobs in his coaching and coach education journey, Rob Sherman, Rob, how are you? Good day. Very well, very well.
Great to have you back on board for the second Masterclass you've done with us, and thanks again for your recent contributions to the magazine and excellent article. My pleasure. Awesome. Awesome.
Well, we wanted to catch up with you and I guess talk a little bit more in depth about not only your own experience, but particularly around coach education and some experience you have with developing a model. So before we get into that, in brief, can you give us a little bit of background as to your coaching journey and I guess what you've been up to since stepping down as technical director of New Zealand football? Yeah, but the coaching journey started when I was a young AP, I think back in the 70s and I did a brilliant balance with the FA and then when I left professional football, I took a role as a senior coach in the largely football in my 20s and so it started then really and then I was lucky enough to become a staff member with the Washa FA and progressed to become national player development manager, became technical director, coached on their A-licensed cities and eventually ran those courses for them until I moved on to New Zealand and then had a situation where I spent some really great time in Australia and had a coach education and in between, I've been coaching coach for the National Men's and 16 teams, we've been mostly a coloured squad, had a swell with Canadian women, we went to the Olympics and really enjoyed that because we won bronze and I've had international experience with my time at New Zealand as well. Fantastic, fantastic, well you've got a wealth of experience, so it's great to have you on board for this conversation.
Now, you've come up with a model for coach education and this is something you've developed in your time in New Zealand I understand. Can you elaborate a little bit on this model that you refer to? Well, I think in fitness the model was designed by myself and Kelly Cross during our time in Australia, so I have to get creative with credit, it's not entirely mine. But in essence, we wanted to have a model where everything we talked about in terms of the coach and then in the context of education had a reference point.
And so we looked at a structure where we looked at football knowledge as a fundamental, and the cleavage and philosophy is something absolutely essential to a coach and then if you like the competency pillars, we started with Match in the middle, it actually matched time is where the nitty gritty happens and I'll be honest and say, in my experience in New Afer courses and of course in my design for myself, we actually didn't really spend that much time on it. It was sort of an assumed scale because you played and then the other conferences have been training, which I think is the traditional, more traditional time spent and management. And so the model, basically that's the structure of the model and we've tested that over many years, but I work in Australia, they might work in New Zealand and they've found that everything pretty much fits into those areas. And you can easily reference that.
And I guess traditional coach education, often people refer to it as kind of a driver's licence process or having to go through certain, you know, certain processes to get a result or a box taking exercise. Obviously, you've reshaped that massively and that's prevalent, having recently moved to Melbourne myself, you can see that kind of legacy, if you will. And I know that the courses that are happening in New Zealand are very, very highly regarded. I mean, can you tell us how you've really applied this and what the benefits have been to coaches locally?
Well, I think from my own experience, first of all, coming through the coaching, as a youngster, I was a younger person, I would say, young person, I would say, was that you'd often sit in your lecture or whatever and you'd think, what could you take out of it? The sort of transferability of that wasn't always black and white. And the same again with on the turf, you'd watch them and coach and you wouldn't necessarily be able to recognise the process they followed or the key components of what they did, but you try and find your way. So you go away from the course and then sort of if you won't get it, fall back into what you'd always done because that was your comfort zone.
And so we looked at it and I looked at it in a sense and said, well, let's take application, that's the starting point. If someone comes on the course and it gives them a tool set, even that's just the starting point. So that tool set something that they evolve for themselves in their own environment, based on their own personality, based on their own skill set, that's not a bad starting point because it becomes something that's more organic and they can drive themselves. So that was our starting point.
And I constantly try to stay abreast to that in the way I deliver. It's very much about candidates, it's not about me at all. And that's sort of the point we've got to or I've got to in terms of my own coach education career. So I think obviously we've always talking about an individual approach to play development, what you're talking about as an individual approach to coach development and understanding that everybody will deliver it a different way, everybody's got a different philosophy.
But it was Anthony Hudson who obviously you worked with and you were a time in New Zealand football who said to me, you know, every course you go on, you can always get something from it. It's not about badge collecting, it's about picking up knowledge, meeting people having conversations and so on. I mean, traditionally a lot of coaches will go on to courses expecting black and white answers and you kind of allude to this. But, you know, can you explain how you've tried to overcome this using this model of putting the match at the centre and understanding different people's strengths and weaknesses I suppose and how you've tried to combat that expectation of people just coming on going, give us the answers and we'll walk away with something.
Well, I think, I mean, I think it was, well, yeah, that's absolutely, you know, there is no one way. So if anyone comes and says, here's the coaching man, if you're the one who writes that and everything's right, you're an absolute genius because there are many ways to do the task. So what I looked at was a process of you like, where you said, well, what's the logical starting point? And the logical starting point is to analyze what's important to understand the game.
So that's where we start the course, we start the game and that becomes like what we do anyway, we per sat there, then we review on a week and we train for the following weekend. So that process, if you're like moving from match to training is a constant and you'd like to think that that's something that every coach does anyway. And we just examine a way to do it. And because that's process driven, hopefully that allows people to actually go on their own tangent and find their own way of looking at how their team play, how their opponent play, how their philosophy fits, they develop that, they set the centre.
And so I think that's how we've got the kind of individualizing it is from that kernel, if you think that's an acting point. Fantastic. And obviously a real problem solving element there for the coaches as well. You're looking at football problems and building sessions or programs around that, I suppose.
Yeah. And we generally, of course, as we group people, so in my experience again, a lot of the learning was taken out night when you were away from the lecture theatre, when you could sit down and share ideas and share opinions. So we've actually recommended that and put people in groups straight away. Again, I'm talking very quickly on what they're seeing, what their feelings are, you know, and so they get a chance to learn off maybe a more experienced eye or learn by teaching, actually by sharing that information and getting their opinion across them.
And that's a very solid learning tool as well. So that whole task driven, the collective wisdom, as a starting point, it doesn't remain that way. We individualized that, that collective wisdom is a way to get the course very dynamic and the learning environment not very dynamic in the lecture theatre or in the workshop, if you like. Yeah, certainly a subjective piece.
And I suppose a lot of football problems can be solved over a couple of years in the evening at any course. So that's always good to see. In terms of your time in Australia, obviously you're referred to your work with Kelly Cross and sort of coming up with this model. And that was a couple of years ago, now, a few years ago now.
And then you've applied that knowledge and taken it on in New Zealand. Do you look back and think you would have done anything differently in terms of your time with coach education in Australia or do you reflect on your time as to key lessons now? I mean, the Australian landscape is extremely difficult. I mean, Kelly, you know, was head of coach education and had a very limited resource pool.
Mike came in as advanced coach education manager and then became head of coach education. And in essence, our aim was to increase the instructor pool and make sure the courses were available within each state and within relative contact for the coaching workforce. And I think that's been a huge success. I know I've spoken to Sean recently and the numbers are just through the roof and that's great.
There's people with access to learning. The, I think a common thing with most associations is actually how to support beyond the contact point. And obviously Australia's a massive country. It's a, you know, distances, a challenge.
But that is the challenge I probably never got a chance to actually move on to in the Australian context. Here, we've set up something a little bit different and we structured the courses at the same, but existing in New Zealand was a junior pillar, a youth pillar and a senior pillar. And so, you know, the long term aim here was to develop a be licensed for junior players. So some expertise in this field acquisition phase.
In the youth phase, an absolute youth specialist course to eight and the same to pro senior level. And so that's an evolution that's happening here. I think maybe with the sea license where we combined youth and senior, it probably needed an add on for an additional element of youth specialization in my time in Australia. But generally, I think the foundation is related and it's just about investment and resources really.
Yeah, certainly like I referred to earlier as strong legacy. And going back to the courses themselves, whether it's been in Australia or whether it's been Wales or New Zealand. Outside of the expectation of coaches to come in and get answers and have an affederation in your face saying that this is the way we want you to coach, which we sort of moved on from. Are there any consistent issues or weaknesses or challenges that you see in coaches coming into those environments that are consistent across the board?
I think there has been a change. I think that a broader philosophical acceptance is one thing that's both from both ends of the spectrum, really, both from the delivery. It's not this way anymore. It's about ways and equally so from the candidate coming a thirst for an all open mind and it's to finding the aff philosophies one thing.
I think some of the major challenges always being that you often design the course based on assessment. So, you know, if you're not careful, it becomes in the past, it can become a box to exercise because you have to at the end of the course, deem people confident or not. And we took that off the table in Australia by introducing a self evaluation process and then post course assessment via video and you're only on the players controlled by you, et cetera, in your own time. And then you get feedback via, you know, notation on your video and the same year in New Zealand.
And I think that one tool changes the dynamic of the course because people remain engaged about the task in hands at each and every stage rather than once they're given their topic, it becomes all about the assessment at the end of the course. And that surface learning, if you like, has proven to be flawed. And I think the index learning or the permanent shifting behavior, the self reflection post course ads is a significant shift in our environment. It doesn't suit everyone.
Of course, you know, there are many ways again to get to that end result. So we're not, I'm not saying it's the only way, but it's been a significant shift. Yeah, certainly, I know Sean's a bit of an expert. You're referred to a million short Douglas, if you fail around self reflection and his masters was in that topic.
And whether you guys were sort of pioneers from the scene to the world, I know the FAA have certainly made a lot of changes in the UK in the last five to seven years around how they deliver. And the courses have very much gone to, you know, I guess, a point of assessment or observation when you're already in your environment, which makes things a lot more realistic. You referred earlier, I guess, at the start of the conversation around your experience coaching on the grass as opposed to coaching coaches in various performance environments. So no, for instance, you're working with the New Zealand women's team alongside Tony readings before he recently stepped down.
I know you've worked alongside John Hartman at the Olympics. You've had some fantastic experiences. What are some of the key learnings from your perspective as a coach from high performance environments that you could perhaps share and pass down the coaches who are working in club land at grassroots level, but could apply within a development environment? Well, I think for me to find the mental person is why you're there.
And I mean, why you as in everyone who's stepping on flat grass, there has to be a common fit of this. And obviously, that might be just self development, or it might be performance. I mean, there's a whole spectrum in there, but why are you there? And the culture needs to understand why the players that match their style and delivery accordingly.
You know, firm is a fundamental element in young athletes. And I'm sure we talk about that later. But you know, if you then don't provide that environment, then you switch people off. So in the performance, it's a fundamental list of purpose.
So, you know, I think it's just winning a little bit of a thing. It generally has to be a little bit more deeper than that, you know, about something that galvanizes, that would galvanize everyone, but something that resonates for someone on a real personal level in terms of continued growth. Then the culture is a fundamental you have to establish the culture. And when I say you, again, that's the group, I think there's a danger that it's leadership driven or management driven, if you like, then you'll be posing a culture.
What you want to do is engage people into establishing their own culture. That will make them much more engaged in living that culture. And then, you know, from the coaching perspective, you have to have the philosophy. You have to know what it is you're trying to bring to life, what you're trying to build, if you like, and how that looks.
And it's sort of a skeletal form on the pitch because it will evolve as the players become more adept at it. They'll, you know, bring elements to life, perhaps, beyond what you envisaged, and they should be allowed to do that. So those would be the three things I would say is a quick purpose, establish a culture, and, you know, be clear on your vision in terms of your playing model is. Fantastic advice.
And in terms of the idea of shared ownership, this is something we've spoken a lot about at PDP with various contributors and Dr. John Alder, who was in New Zealand for a long time, comes to mind in terms of some of his advice through articles and videos we've done with him. So some great tips there. And I couldn't agree more.
In terms of the topic of talent, now, you know, in the world of social media and online, there's a raging debate about talent. And this has been obviously an issue in the world of Academy football in the UK and was recently sort of revealed through the Michael Calvin documentary and book on, you know, too much too soon in the work that he's done exposing the world of youth football. There's a real sort of competitive nature when it comes to developing young players. And I've seen this at Grassroots Football as well, where there's an obsession about winning for coaches or winning titles.
So they're putting the best players in the best positions and perhaps not giving the individual what they need. How damaging can an adult view of a child's experience be? And what strategies can clubs and coaches put in place around talent ID and ensuring a positive sporting experience for young people? Well, I think, I think the first thing that was trying to remember back to a day when you yourself were that young player and what actually, you know, got you out the door and it was generally just your love of playing again, your desire to do nothing else.
And that sort of is a massive contradiction with the too much too soon is that I mean, based on my own experience, it's not always rich to go in my day. But if I was playing 20 hours of football, it was a doddle, a week. An absolute doddle, it didn't impinge on my life at all. But the world was a different place then.
But in essence, I think intrinsic motivation for the player is the absolute must and as many drivers for that. But if the players intrinsically motivated, then they'll have both of these formal self driven and if you like adult driven or coach driven inputs that will help them develop and help them grow. So a little bit like the players said that approach that I talked about is I think you have to have a culture where in essence, the very least that happens after someone comes to academy football is they keep playing football. And if at the end of their time in academy, it's the end of football, something's grossly wrong.
In my opinion, and therefore they should want to be chomping at the pit to go to training, chomp at the pit to get out and practice, chomp at the pit to do all the things necessary without losing their childhood. Because the children at the end of the day, and they need to make mistakes, scrape their knees, take life lessons and life's joys play at the sports. And it needs to be balanced. And I think the danger is when it's adult driven, if you're not capable, it's the ambition of the adult that's hugely driving factor and that's not healthy.
Yeah, definitely. We're not dealing with many adults or indeed many professionals. And there's so many cases of late developing players, the likes of Jamie Vardy, Gareth Bale obviously come to mind at the highest level, but giving players time and keeping them in the environment's key. I mean, in your own view, if you have to be put on the spot a little bit around scouting and what attributes you look for in a player and perhaps some of these performance environments you've been involved in the selection process, what would you look for in a player who you thought might have genuine talent at a young age?
And what age do you think that perhaps becomes prevalent? I know there isn't an answer for everybody, it isn't an individual thing. But is there a time where you think perhaps yeah, I can really see this player does have the attributes and what would you look for in a player? I think one of the first things to me is the commitment to be like on the joy.
So someone who no matter what, they still want to get the ball to have the ball or they want to get the ball back, more than the player if you like, that they just want to be involved in the game, whether they're playing well or baddie or whatever it's going on in their favor, it seems winning losing, they still want to be instrumental in the game. That's a fundamental for me. If you look at that in a player, I think that's a characteristic that you don't have to change or you don't have to develop. If it's not there, I think you can develop it, but it's a bonus if it is.
Then for me, it's the sort of game reading, really. I like to see a player who, you sense is anticipating what's evolving in the game and they're already adjusting their position or moving or timing a run, whether the ball comes or not. It's something that's often overlooked because that's dependent on, say, the ball carrier. And so when you're scanning a game, I think you need to look at players off the ball as much as players on the ball.
Obviously, then you've got the skill factor, but that can be developed. There's no other way about that. I think you can develop that whole year for a year. But it is a factor that if you like the PD, that how will they perceive the situation that's the decisions they make and the execution?
If their perception is pretty good, and they're in a situation and the decision making is pretty good, their execution, that can be improved. They can all be improved, but I would say for a player's got strong PDE and good commitment, then for me, they're showing some real potential. The other thing, I saw different noise in a little bit is when people talk about young players and athleticism, because there's many factors that go into that about advanced maturation, et cetera. And that equalizes out in time.
And there are genetics, obviously, but equally so. I pick someone who had good PDE over someone who is a good athlete every time, personally. I think we need to develop instructors that allow the late developers, those born in the later quarters of the year, those whose bioages is less than the chronological age, allowing them an opportunity to actually come through the cycle before we make too many judgments is another key factor. Agree, looking as a personal thing in terms of what type of players you like to work with or even how individuals develop players, but certainly the patience game is key.
And obviously, the system, particularly in Europe or the UK, doesn't always lean itself to giving players that time, which hopefully, in due course, will be looked at or may evolve. In terms of strengths and weaknesses, me players have them and coaches have them. What attributes do you think top coaches must have in order to give themselves the best chance to continue to develop and even have a career in the game, which is obviously a tough challenge? Well, I think you need to believe in yourself.
That's fundamental. You need to be confident enough to stick to your guns and stick with what you believe and not blow in the wind because you're in the wind a lot. There's a lot of people who know better out there who are only too willing to let it be known. So you need to stick to your guns and have that belief.
You definitely need to be able to engage people and lead people. And therefore, there's a range of leadership styles. It's times you might have to be very authoritarian at the time. It's more diplomatic and more guiding.
But you need to be able to move up and down that spectrum. And actually, you may do that deliberately. Just to show aside that is needed to make the right impression at the right time. And obviously, you need to be, I think, clear on your football methodology and your football philosophy.
And again, there's a multitude of those. So I know the best coaches have those beliefs. I believe when they have a methodology that they trust. Yeah, good advice there.
And in terms of personal mentors for you, whether it's in a playing coaching or coach education context, can you share any stories in terms of particular influences on your own career? Yeah, I've been lucky, I suppose. When I was at the bar, I was at that time, I'm not saying it's different. But at that time, we were lucky that we had a certain group of people that were very challenging.
Young people who were coming in who were very challenging as well. And so there was a real environment where you had to be thoughtful about what you said and what you got challenged by it. Equally so, you got opportunities to work at various levels, both in culture, with national teams, et cetera. And again, amongst your peers, getting screwed tonight, there was no basis to height.
So that in itself became very meant to me. In my time there, I went to Mark Azelwood and I was, yeah, an exponential number of sort of an element of wisdom for me personally, which I think helped me at that particular time. I then worked delivering an aid license, or did my aid, the pro license with Lenny Lawrence and delivered a pro license with Lenny Lawrence. He's one of the members of the Elite 1000 Club and you can learn something from them.
He just listened to him breathe. So I mean, that was a great experience and over the years, I've cajering on back and picked his brains on a number of things. And I would say, in my time in Australia, also with with Han Berger and Kelly, we had a very dynamic sharing team there who challenged each other, which again was a rich experience. So I've been lucky, you know, and you mentioned John Hibman and John's a fantastic operator.
And I think we drove each other in our time in using football and our concert relationship with the Canadian women's team was one where it was beneficial both ways. And I've always gained a lot of out of John in terms of his ideas, his concepts, his approach and I think that was vice versa. But now it's when you work with the people, it's very hard not to take a little piece of them and add it to yourself. Absolutely.
Always good to be outside of the comfort zone. Obviously, John's moved over to the men's team and is highly regarded as a result of his name, Bandy, about with the England women's job as well recently as somebody who was in the mix there. So certainly always growing in profile and achieving a lot. Last couple of questions we rolled.
First one is around coach communication. And I think that's absolutely critical in any environment, how you communicate with your group and then obviously subsequently with individuals or staff. What areas can coaches focus on to ensure they're really effective communicators? Well, you know, again, in the model we use in energy management to know yourself, develop yourself, know others, develop others and then the words and pitches concept.
So, you know, there's multi-learning styles. Actually, if you can use very strong pitches and a company with the right words and not over-in-balance, then you know, you've certainly got a chance of capturing the learning style in front of you, if you're not fully aware of that. I think that less is more often, you know, that by task setting, you give a bigger boundary to the player of finding solution and then providing the right support at the right time. And it's easy to say that because that spectrum moves, but in essence, the right support at the right time.
And if you're like the turn we use is Q or the trigger that maybe unlocks the decision making process. It's something that's very powerful for a player, I think, rather than just do this, just do that. That's just because in itself. I think with staff, it's a case of constant communication and having processes by which you have regular check-in points, regular processes by which there's an expectation people have done certain things by certain times, and you're checking how those work and how they impact on you on a day-to-day basis.
And I think in that context, you know, again, that comes down to your personal style, but I think the biggest thing for me is I like to be challenged. I don't like anyone in my environment who's a yes, ma'am. I want no people actually who actually say I don't agree, and they either make you substantiate what you mean and back it up or actually challenge you to come up with an even stronger solution to something. And that's a personal viewpoint and I'm sure there's many different ones.
So that's up to them. Definitely. And I think it goes back to that idea of valuing discomfort. We're all always learning and if we are, then we should be open to being a critique or having discussions with challenge.
I don't think coaches should shy away from that. So certainly some good ideas. And the last question for you, Rob, and we always ask all of our guests, what advice you would give, and I know we've talked about coaches carving their way in the game, but what advice have you really had to keep it brief? Would you give coaches to ensure that they can help their players be the best they can be and, of course, develop themselves at the same time?
Well, I think the first thing is, you know, you need solutions for players. You might not always be happy if you need to seek them. You want to encourage players to ask them a challenge. You know, you will ask a young player, you know, you understand what I'm saying?
And they'll say yes. You have to look deeper than that if they're body language and eyes and you have to be prepared to say it to yourself, even sign it. I don't think you do and not accept that that's even enough for that player. So I think that the other thing is you need to analyze the game and understand the game.
They are, and I believe that you need to understand the game in the minute I need to coach the younger player. You know, because they've all those small component parts come to life in the 11, 11 senior football, and therefore you need to analyze football, look at the key components that influence decision-making in the ball, the opposition, the teammate, space, etcetera, the time of the movement, all those factors and have the sort of cues and ability to point players towards the right solution without necessarily telling them it's A or it's B because, you know, the game's dynamic and fluid and it's ever-changing. So one solution doesn't fit all. Absolutely.
Well, Rob, thank you so much once again for your time. I mean, some absolute gyms in that conversation and really appreciate your time and your expertise today. My pleasure. Good to speak again, Excellent.
And we'll look forward to another Play Development Project Masterclass discussion. Pearson. Thanks for joining us on the Play Development Project Podcast. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram, have Play at DV or find us on Facebook.
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