Thinking from an earlier conversation where you were talking about how all this stuff about developing people and asking them about their aspirations and really it was all ringing to mind something that we talked about chatting about which is this whole, when do we stop being a manager and step into therapists or psychology territory because this is something that I often, well that I often think about and that a lot of people have said to me sometimes I feel like people's therapist. The thing I really struggle with is where you draw boundaries around it because in as much as you want work to be part of life and to feel like there's some connection between all those. Also it's a job and you go there to own money for the most part and a lot of people expect there to be some distance. I'm sort of professional as around it where if you're thinking of yourself as a therapist or a psychologist you're probably overstepping.
Hi listeners welcome welcome welcome to the management cafe where I'm talking to Tim at the moment we're starting to think about this whole thing of when does a manager step into therapist arena and do we want to start something that comes with our job so we're going to be here for about 20 minutes you're very welcome to join us grab a seat or whatever you want to be doing as we have this conversation. I think that part of management whatever we are doing here when we sit down and talk about sometimes in inverted commas management because we start to go into human behavior of course we start going to sociology psychology and I think that part of it is when you're dealing with people every day when you're trying to get the work done through people you have to have some. If not knowledge at least some curiosity about human nature and understanding of it and that it sometimes brings us into getting to a psychologist therapist territory. It's very helpful to know why people are behaving in the way that they are not just now they're behaving so I understand people's motivations is really helpful for that there.
You know what I do not like you emotional intelligence to aspects to it I think one is that. Sort of understanding of like almost from from your own perspective that you're analyzing or trying to understand what's going on. You know you might be talking to people to sort of understand that as well when you're trying to become more. If you're trying to change how people feel if you're trying to change their behaviors or their modalities or whatever.
Then I think it starts getting into risky territory because of the power imbalances and because you're not qualified therapist. Well that's the thing isn't it that it's really interesting how sometimes it might feel like we're doing therapy but actually we're not. I think one thing that comes to mind is have you watched Superstore the American sitcom. I haven't.
I love it. It's just this well it's set in Superstore and you've got the manager you've got the assistant manager and the assistant manager is one of all she's this woman called Dina who's so ruthless it's amazing. And she said is it my job to help people poop their emotions all over the place. I'm like here for them when they have something to moan about or when they're or actually when when something's happened personally that they need to to deal with and I'm I that person.
Like for example you and I might be quite comfortable with that happening I might be able to because we think about it so much and we're curious we might be able to manage it in a way that that works. I think sometimes instinctively you know where that line is between okay that was a good conversation to show I support you however anything more than this will actually go into like you say into you need someone to help you or you know that is not me. I don't know it's just I'm just randomly thinking randomly. I think there's a lot of grounds to explore there as long as people do it carefully.
And you need permission. The person needs to feel safe with you that they need to be a willing participant in any conversations or interactions that you might have. It gets difficult I think if you think oh this person's blocked with this thing and the blocks are this reason and if they can only understand this then everything would be better well. If I don't want to understand it or if they don't want you to be the one to try to help them understand it should be a lot.
But what about when people come to you I mean this is like dinner's thing is that what if at some point will people are coming to you with whatever problems they have and you feel actually I'm your manager I'm not your therapist. Yeah that's the thing is that's the thing that I think is sometimes on people's minds is that because you're opening yourself to supporting and you're there for people etc. And the feeling that you're being made to be the therapist. Well yeah I've felt that I felt that at times.
I felt that for sure. It's very reliable. Part of it is it is your job. You know it is part of it partly it is a job but also you have boundaries that you can enforce just like everybody else.
You don't have to take on everything that anyone brings to you or their worries they might have or thoughts they might want to express or whatever that you can say that's not for this relationship. I think we talked about this before I had someone who it was reporting to me and she told me she told me about her favorite manager was a major. And her favorite manager had been someone who just listened when she went to it and I had to say that that's not going to be our relationship. I got that I'm sure I could have handled it better than I did it more sensitively but I couldn't be her emotional support person for any frustration she felt at work I was too close to it.
I think we should know we have licensed to do that as well because like you say we are also people so we are also able to give that kind of support in different ways. So some people might just be absolutely fine with that and they know how to run with it and they're used to it. They're used to handling most of them might feel like therapy and they know what to do with it and other people actually don't or don't want to. So I think that even that even knowing but I think this question always should come up is knowing where you where you sit and then actually just communicating that appropriately of course.
Well one of the difficult parts is that as a leader you're often passing your baggage on to other people. You know like your unresolved trauma or like your issues. You know everyone around you is experiencing those whether you realize it or not. And so for you to be self aware for you to be progressing towards a greater understanding of yourself and how you might have behaviors that serve you and behaviors that don't serve you is really valuable.
It's absolutely a path that leaders should be on and I think that leadership is a wonderful opportunity to be tested in those ways and to learn things about yourself that will make you better human being. Part of what happens to us to many of us if we go through that so great is like oh my god that's amazing I feel great now that was incredible everybody else should have that experience. And it's now my job to make sure that everybody learns the lesson that I just learned because it's such a great lesson. It's a natural human human character.
I think it's a real that in a bit. Has that happened to you? You have some stories that we want to hear? Oh for sure.
Yeah it's like there's been so many occasions I think where I felt like I understood something or I came to understand something and I'd be like oh my gosh you know I know I just you know there's revelation. Typically my experience is that the person I would go to to explain that would be like thank goodness you finally got the message. Finally. You do realize that everything you just told me I told you several times in the past.
I got there I got there eventually. So yeah, embarrassingly I've definitely felt that. I think it's last time we had coffee here we were talking about having a sense of a person as a whole. And so to your point about am I here is there emotional support person am I here to deal with anything that comes up.
The more of it that you can deal with you know probably the better within within reason. I think what I do think is thinking thinking of ourselves as a therapist in the way that. Going back to your point about offloading and you know boundaries and being aware of influence and being aware of official influence in a way is that what the therapist does is they help you offload you know they're there for you but then they don't expect you to be there for them. Because I don't know for me as human being as well if I'm having a conversation someone struggling and they're struggling with and I'm starting to feel a bit like okay this is.
This is going into a little bit of an area that maybe I wouldn't say I'm not comfortable but he's getting a little bit out of the inverted commas professional chat. I might then feel I could talk to them as well about my stuff great they've uploaded on to me maybe and I think that that's actually where if we are thinking at all ourselves at any point as therapists I think that's when it can come in quite useful is just being aware that. I think this is quite a one way therapeutic relationship. That's such a great point.
I never thought about that. Yeah, when you engage a therapist you're paying the therapist they work for you. There's a power imbalance because they're the authority in the relationship. They're not the authority on you but they're the authority in terms of how the relationship progresses.
You're reliant on them. And I guess they might be a tendency to look at that manager employee relationship. They're like a teacher is like a coach but you decide whether you continue to see therapists or not. Your manager is a different environment because they're holding you accountable for other things.
You work for them. Well, this is a messier topic as the messy human relationships we find ourselves in. Well, I would love to hear what others think around this because I'm sure that we have all kinds of practices and experiences from well I draw my line here very early on. Up to well I don't mind feeling like a therapist I think that's my job right to well I enjoy the role of therapists because also that's another thing isn't it.
What do we enjoy or not? There are people who are very empathetic and who naturally take on that role. The difficulty for those people in a management role is if you don't have boundaries around it and you do play that role a lot. It can be a tremendous burden that you're unable to manage and in fact you burn yourself out.
Which ultimately doesn't serve you well or the people who you're meant to be leading well. So it can be tricky but I'd love to hear from people. Yeah, it's this whole awareness piece as well. So yes, people we would love you to share your ideas any thoughts you've had during this coffee would be great.
You can email us over at managementcafepodcast.com. Send us a module that would be lovely or you're written in comments. So coffee is over for us. Now it's over to you.