There's lots of things in the article that I was reading through going, oh, wow, we've talked about that. I know that's put very well. It touches on a lot of aspects of leadership and leadership training. The thing that I like most about it is how it suggests that you train to check in with how you are approaching a conversation.
I think that for me was the most interesting thing, was that there's a lot of things where I thought, ah, wow, that confrontation, that could have been a big confrontation, and this person has made the best out of it by shifting the way they look at it, and that's what I liked best. Yeah, I like that there's a lot of intention about what you want to do in a conversation or interaction, and then also in the moment, there's how to sort of check in and think, is it going the way that I want it to? If not, what might I want to do here? And then the retrospective, like the sort of thing back on it at the end, I just think it's a really, like, makes a difference if you're being very mindful about what you're doing, as opposed to just reactive all the time.
And that's why, dear listeners, everyone around the table, that's why Tim and I are going to wrap our conversation around an article. But if you haven't joined us at the cafe before, welcome. Welcome to Managing Cafe. My name is Pilar Orti, and the other voice you are listening to is Tim Burgess, and we're going to be here for around, we always say, it's always between 20 and 30 minutes, and we invite you to hang around.
We are actually discussing, it's an article from the Harvard Business Review, the January and February 2024 issue, and it's called Leading in the Flow of Work, How to Tap into the Right Intentions, Words, and Actions when You Need Them, and it is by Hitendra Watwa. So I will, I don't know if you will, but I will definitely very shamelessly read from it, but I think it's fair use, copyright-wise, so I'm sure nobody will mind that we quote directly from it. What other things did you think about? I've got lots of things highlighted.
I like the underlying premise of it. I like that it's about bringing intentional preparation into leadership and how you present yourself, how you interact. And it's funny for me that flow is something that I most associate with, for example, playing sport. You know, when you're in a state of flow, you're not thinking about what's happening, it's just coming very naturally.
But flow, as they talk about it here, is slightly different. It's almost like you're sitting on your own shoulder, sort of thing, that you're interacting, but you're also making conscious, thought-out decisions on what to do and what you want to happen and how you want to act and what's actually happening, and being very aware in terms of navigating that, which is not so much instinctual for me. It's more like a heightened state of awareness. I might have misinterpreted that.
What do you think? I think you're right, and I think it's very important to define that term, because leading in flow of work, as the title suggests, to me, the reason why it caught my eye was because I thought it was more about leading through the work, and I thought of the flow of work as the flow of teamwork. But I think you're right, what this article refers to is the flow of work as a team leader or as a leader. It's that very specific bit of leadership and a leadership practice that has to do with conversations, mainly.
Yeah. Which is why I thought really interesting that the work in this case, I don't know if I forgot this right, the work in this case and the conversations and leading through those conversations, where, of course, there's a very different way, I think, of leading a team, not only through conversations. So I think what you suggest is right. It's about the flow, but adjusting that and having that split personality between being present and, like you said, being the person that's reviewing what's going on at the same time.
So not just being in the moment, but having an awareness of the moment and being able to shift around. I think you put it very well. Within the sporting realm, when you're in that state, it's because of all the training and practice and muscle memory takes over. So you're not thinking about what you have to do.
You're just doing it instinctually. But you have this, well, for someone like me with that much natural talent, you're relying on a base of work, of preparation practice that you've done. The framework that they've outlined seems to be a bit more, not so much instinctual, but maybe if you practice and practice at it, it would become like that. What I liked about it, and I think you're absolutely right, it's very much around conversations, around interaction.
But what I liked about that aspect is that those situations are very fluid. And often as leaders, we have this thing where we feel blindsided or we're in a situation and we think it should be going a certain way. And then you come out afterwards and you're like, what just happened there? I didn't get what I wanted.
And then you have to sort of try and unpack it. It can be difficult to do afterwards and you sort of lost it in the moment. And the more that you can bring that awareness forward so that you're not, it's not after the fact that you're going, oh, maybe I should have done something different. Yeah, that's my life.
Yeah, me too. Me too. And it's very difficult to do. But the more that you close that gap so that you're recognizing in the moment or close to the moment, oh, this isn't going the way I thought it was.
And there's a terrific example of Margaret Thatcher and Gorbachev, I think. Yeah. You know, they're arguing at one point, I think they turn their backs on each other. And then Gorbachev apparently centers himself and thinks, what do I want to happen here and what's going on?
And then he totally changes his approach and wins Margaret Thatcher over and started a great working relationship that, you know, changed the world. That is the conversation that got me. So I'm just going to read it for listeners because actually I think it's very specific what happened there. The author is actually quoting from a book by Jonathan Aitken where he describes, well, it's a biography of Margaret Thatcher, Margaret Thatcher's power and personality.
So she's quoting a quote, so I'm just going to do that. So talking about, yes, an interview they had on December 16th, 1984. And Thatcher started, well, she says, Thatcher wasted no time in firing the first salvo, stating, I want there to be no misunderstanding between us. I hate communism.
Very quickly, the argument between Margaret and me became very heated, Gorbachev later recalled, according to the book. So Gorbachev was saying she was accusing the Soviet Union of all sorts of unfair things. I did not accuse Britain of anything. And then, like Tim said, the two turned their backs to each other in the middle of lunch and Gorbachev's wife, Ralsa, stunned by Thatcher's attack, indicated to her husband, it's over.
For a moment, Gorbachev thought they should leave. And then something remarkable happened. Gorbachev centered himself and considered his intentions in meeting Thatcher. We are guests here.
The conversation must continue, he thought. He reframed the situation in his mind from, She's attacking my government, to, She's promoting her principles. I, well, you know, that's exactly what you say. And I think that the reason, not just the fact that he was able to do that, because for me, this is the key of most arguments and most disagreements, is that people are not trying to do damage, they're trying to follow the principles and the principles clash.
And this has saved me so many times from, not from arguments, but from feeling animosity towards people. Just remembering that they're not doing that badly, actually, they believe what they're doing is right and the same, personally. So I think that's also why this anecdote resonated in so many levels. But I thought, if I can do that, not when I'm thinking about something, but in the moment, if I can train myself, that is so powerful.
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. For me, the hook there was that he, you can picture being in that and being so angry that you're going to leave. Yes. And, you know, such a cultural divide and so much pressure on them in order to represent themselves in a certain way.
And yet, in the moment, he's able to pause and think, what do I want to do here? And make a conscious decision to do it. They're very powerful, those times when you actually get that right. Yeah.
So how I work through these, I just make lots of notes and then I come back to them. But I think it's part of what you've been saying as well. And going back to what you were saying about how we do something consciously. So, for example, if I was to start approaching this, my own conversations like this, I would very mindfully be on the lookout for situations and stop myself until this skill becomes internalized and then you do it just by instinct.
So I think there's also that and sometimes we forget how long that takes. But I really like a quote very early on in the article, which I think if more organizations and more people saw it like this, we'd have different kinds of training and approach to leadership. And the author says, rather than a trait to be acquired, leadership is a state to be activated. And I thought, yes, it is because it's, I mean, we've talked about this before.
If you have the right context, if you have the right connection, this gets activated in people. It's not whether people have it or not. It's just that there needs to be this context. And I really like that.
Yeah, and I think as well, the concept that we function better as leaders, they're not being triggered or being centered. And that's absolutely true that if you can let go of ego and attachment, and I'm quoting from the article, ego, attachments, insecurities, impulses, and everyday habits, if we can overcome those things and actually think about the circumstance we're in and what's the best way to act in that circumstance, and when we're doing that in an open and calm way, then we can really have a great impact. Because if you want to do something like facilitate or deepen a connection with somebody or diffuse a situation, they're difficult things to do when you're operating from a state of high emotion. And when you're trying to hold the situation very closely, it's difficult to navigate that because to Gorbachev's situation, empathy is a big part of it.
One of the things that he did was he saw Margaret Thatcher's side of it and thought, okay, I can understand what she's doing here, and I can see why she's doing it. And bringing that into the conversation was part of what I'm going to do with the knot. But if you're defensive and controlled, then it's difficult to do that. It's difficult to see what's happening on the other side of the table.
I really wish, I mean, I'm thinking back. I really wish I'd come across all these things 20 years ago when I was, because I have distinct situations, and I'm thinking back. It's one, it's lack of empathy. Two, it's not being able to understand what was going on within me as well.
And not understanding that this was not about me being right or me getting a point across or me being comfortable, actually. It was about the situation. And I think that is, there's so much practice and reflection. And I'm going thinking back.
For me, it's not always about, sorry, go for it. Oh, no, I was just going to say, I totally, I'm totally with you. That's why we're here. Well, that's one of the things about learning and evolving, if that's something that we're doing, I hope it is, is it does bring with it a certain amount of regret because you realize you've been doing things wrong or that you could have done things better.
And a lot of pain could have been avoided. I have to get a t-shirt that says, I didn't have any regrets until I started this podcast. My life has always been about having no regrets, but now it's just really all the fact. Well, it's okay, though, because it just shows you that it didn't mean something.
Well, you know, some people say I wouldn't change anything because my experience makes me the person I am today, so I will go with that. Yeah, but you don't get to go back and do it again. If you did, you'd do it differently. But yeah, we don't get the chance.
Oh, well, and on this, the article also talks about how this changes. And I think we forget about this. It always seems like it's just such a stuck thing. You know, you start in one place and you stick to how you are.
But the article says, as a wave of scientific finding shows, the personality and behavior of someone will change with the context that person is in, the thoughts and feelings that individual is experiencing and who else is present. So actually, it's what we just said. But they put it so, so well. And I think it's also, ah, okay, so reflection time, penny dropping time for me.
I am someone who's so, I'm going to say open, and it's not necessarily a positive or negative way. I am very open to people's energies or people's presence. And so, as an example, I did a few years ago when I started my management development training, I actually joined an organization that was doing management certificates in schools. Well, they went through the whole certificate of delivering modules.
And some people were horrified at this aspect because why would you bring management to kids so early when it's such a stuffy thing and some places it seems something not great. But however, what we were doing was actually opening their minds to the fact that a manager is not someone who just tells you what to do, but there's all these other things around it. So actually, I was very proud of the work. I had one group where I was just all over the place.
I was getting edgy. I was so on edge that actually the guy who was running the thing, who was still half supervising, came and said, Pilar, don't get like that. There's no, you know, you don't need to get angry or whatever. We're talking, these were, they weren't even 16.
I think they were 15. It was not the best age group. And it was fine. So that was really good feedback.
And then we went to another school where I had an amazing group of people who were just present, who were completely engaged, who were reflective. And he saw me, he was like, you see, you can be so great. You know, this is, and I said, yeah, but it's the group. He's like, no, no, no, it's not the group.
He's like, yes, it's the group. I can be very, very good. So yes, I've got it all in me. But if the group is not right, if the people I'm with are not right, I don't know how to navigate that.
And I think it still happens. This is something I haven't been able to change. I could even feel it, like even delivering online. I feel the group.
And when the group has been right, I've flown. When the group is not right, I do not know how to detach my, the trainers who just are wonderful all the time. I'm too open. So it's just really interesting.
Yeah. That's particularly, I think, because the type of work you do, you're often interacting with new groups. You haven't performed the dynamics very different. Whereas for most managers, it's a bit more of the same.
You know, like your team is your team. You know, people might come and go, but they're not that often, hopefully. And so the dynamic is a bit settled. But because I absolutely agree.
And that's actually one of the things that I like about this framework is that it reminds us that our habitual behaviors aren't always going to get it done. You know, the idea that we go, oh, this is going to be a, you know, there's going to be a performance review or like this is going to be a, you know, negotiation with a vendor or whatever. I'm just going to show up the same way that I always do and it's going to go the same way it always does and everything's going to be fine. That's not how life works.
You know, we get wrinkles from here and there. And so the opportunity is there that when things aren't going the way that we think they should to try and, you know, pause and think, well, what might be going off and what might I be able to do to influence it? Now, where I think it gets tricky, I mean, that's tricky. That's tricky.
But also thinking through the 25, I don't know which I won't remember, you know, the 25 different actions that they've put in here to tap into your core energies. I think it's a little bit, but I think the fundamental message that if you're able to be aware and present that you've got a better chance of navigating the situation, I think is a good one. You're not going to get it right. I mean, we're not going to get it right all the time, but I think we have a better chance because some of the stuff, you know, one of the things I found for me is like when you're in conflict with somebody, if you're able to try and bring it back to sort of a shared purpose or what the shared outcome is, you know, shared values is a, you know, that often works in that situation unless you can't find a shared value.
Unless what you want to achieve is different. Because I think that that's a really good point is really looking out for what are we here to do, what is our shared purpose? Because a lot of the time we're having these conflicts or arguments or discussions that actually come from everyone wanting to do the same thing. There's just something else getting in the way.
So that's a really good point. And I think as well as being, again, in that flow and in that very present moment and seeing how fluid. you need to be and what is happening i think the mindset from before that the preparation before that i think it's also about knowing in fact even even if the preparation is okay i expect this to go like this however i've got to be ready for it not to go this way and be present i think it's also good for me a good learning of just any prep do you shall we just uh rattle off what the model is just in case listeners are curious but i'm not going to read the article yeah sure sure as um tim mentioned these energies and they have five core energies our leadership model which builds on both ancient wisdom and contemporary science focus on five types of energy purpose committed to a noble cause wisdom calm and receptive to the truth growth curious and open to learning love connected with those you work with and serve and self-realization centered in a joyful spirit yeah i mean it's really interesting for me all of this is like work you need to do before the and then this is the prep for me thinking about these things and it's an ever evolving thing and then you can take that uh in and then i think was just mentioning some actions that they suggest they say our analysis revealed that 25 actions showed up regularly so it's basically the actions are what they've seen that people are doing to get them into this state and i think like there's a lot of an article about how you know people who do this do better than people who don't do it and then part of that i'm sure is the person trying to promote their um of course but also it makes sense to me that uh leaders who are carrying intention and awareness into things are more likely to have a good outcome you know it's just quite quite obvious that uh to me because i know in my own experience that when i have put more effort in in terms of preparing myself in terms of trying to be open and aware during interactions in terms of thinking about it afterwards and and then trying to reframe things in ways that are helpful to me and helpful to the situation like it makes a difference i think you have to be in a very specific state because this talks about one of the things it talks about is love and it says connected with those you work with and serve and then later on in the article it says leadership in flow does not work by faking it so i think this is not just about what you're doing it's also really about acknowledging how you're feeling and and this thing that if someone is in the right place if you're unhappy and not happy with the work it's very difficult to achieve this kind of flow so they don't really dig into this as much as i thought they would in the article but when you're talking about the flow and natural state and and being sort of centered i i think that there's a parallel here with being sort of authentic you know with being true to ourselves and because i think for most people when we you know when we think about it we do want to have a purpose you know we do want to feel wise and and be receptive to the truth and to find out what's true we want to be curious and open to learning we want that interaction we want to be connected you know which are these five pillars we want to feel joyful and so partly i think there's there's an opportunity to sort of uh it's a call to drop some of the sort of facade or um not facade yeah exactly some of the sort of potential or sort of acting you know that we do as managers where we yeah pretend is a good word pretending that you know we should act in this way or pretending that things are different to what they actually are and the more that we're actually trying to to speak to our truth what's the truth we see in the situation what's the connection we're trying to build then i think it's helpful for us as leaders and it's helpful for forgetting the right outcomes yeah and i think that that comes with being in the right place by which i mean the right organization with the common purpose instead of disjointed and yeah lots lots to think about you know this would be a really tough skill to develop in a lot of practice i think that's what that reframing i think is really important they give this example of someone doing post mortems i think where things didn't turn out and someone said post mortems helped him translate instances of instances of failure into opportunities for growth but there's a lot of buzzwords in there allowing him to find pride in moments where he honored his intention and tied it to his value so i love that framing that even if you don't get the result you can feel proud that you tried you know that you thought oh it's important to me to do this i'm going to link it to that and i'm going to put my put it out there didn't work but i'm proud of myself for trying i feel like that was a good achievement and that's a really great path to getting better and a great part to sip our last a bit of coffee or tea and invite everyone around the table to share their thoughts and experiences you get to read the article great let us know what you thought but hopefully the conversation has gone well it's great i love starting with something so concrete and then see what it takes us because it's nice to have something to come back to what's next so anyway um managementcafepodcast at gmail.com you can go over to managementcafepodcast.com for comments oh we might have to link to the article in the show notes but it might be paywall to some people i think you have to register for hbr oh yeah i think you can read a certain number of free articles a month or something like that so hopefully it works out for people what is that the magazine so it's they might not i don't know if they always have it on the web or not but some you know i access mine through my library oh i can see it's i can see it's on the yeah it's on the website yeah okay yeah it's on the hbr great save the link as you always do and then stick it in the show notes great well listeners coffee's over for us now it's over to you thank you for joining us at the management cafe remember you can subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use to make sure you get your weekly dose of reflection our website is management.caf and on twitter we are at management app that's all for this episode from myself lar or tea and our fellow co-host team purchase thank you for listening thank you thank you