I think it's probably, yeah, I wonder whether you would think about the tendency versus mindset, but that something certainly that I've experienced a lot was that comparison didn't bring me a lot of happiness. Yeah. You know, and I wonder whether that's the way that comparison, you know, is filtered through my general tendencies, that like if I say me and something else, then I'm like, oh, I'm rubbish and that's good, you know? And so it just makes me feel bad.
Yes. Well, let's start with this one then. So listeners, welcome to the Management Cafe. This is the first episode of our new season around, well, we called it Management mindset, and it could be that we could also call it manager cognitive tendencies, but it doesn't sound as good.
Doesn't have the alliteration, yeah. Yes. So if you want to find out more about why we're doing this season, then check out the previous episode. If we haven't met before, my name is Kilar Ortiz and with me, of course, is co-host, having what, what are you having tea, hot chocolate, tea, mergers?
I could go to the chalata. China. Yeah, that's a nice drink. I can't think that.
Yes. Well, I've got my coffee waiting for me somewhere and I'll probably have some kind of milk. Although, I have to say, we don't usually do the small talk listeners about coffee at the beginning, but I have discovered that I really enjoy a kind of more espresso sized coffee with a little bit of milk after lunch now rather than a big, well, not a big, but rather than a more frothy white coffee. And then maybe I'm getting old.
I don't know. That's what my parents used to do, have a, you know, a straight coffee after lunch. Really? Really interesting.
Yeah. It's a lovely thing, isn't it, when the stuff used to make fun of your parents for suddenly becomes the thing that you like doing as well? Yes. So we'll see.
We'll see. So well, there's a comparison for you because I'm wearing very neatly with landed on. We're starting with this. With this, I suppose, manage a mindset of whether we bring comparison all the way into it.
Tim, you suggested this and you were just talking about it. This is something I really wrestled with. Yeah. It's a manager as well.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, particularly, I think particularly because I was a founder, but even just, even just like as a manager, there's so much, like there's so much you can compare yourself to.
You know, people talk about like, Tina just going, like in social media and everyone has their like perfect little life on social media and become, you know, you don't realize that's not reality and your life looks. Bad by comparison. Absolutely. That was something that I experienced and really struggled with, you know, where people would be sharing their great experiences or their, you know, how they're achieving all these milestones or how the companies, the cultures really getting all this great feedback or, you know, and I wasn't, you know, I was struggling, struggling, a lot of the family or, you know, 80% pain and 20% pleasure.
So I think, you know, like, like my experience looked less than their experience and I found that difficult. I found it to be motivating. To the point that I actively started to hide anybody who was involved in the same industry as me from like, I didn't want to unfollow them because they might notice that. So instead I just like mute them or hide them or whatever, because it just used to spiral me when I would see what they're up to.
I relate to that. I have a strategy that I use as an individual because I do that all the time, all the time. I'm comparing myself to my peers, to my friends. The first thing is that I immediately think I've got to be pleased for them.
So that's like a mindset thing. Okay. So that is one. But the other is that I try to understand what, so for example, if I want that level of what looks like success, say, for example, as a freelancer, as a business owner, if I want that level of client or if I want that number of clients, for example, that this person might be getting, I think, what would I have to do to get that?
And that helps me understand the amount of hard work or different kind of work that this person is doing. So for example, it might have to do with the kind of promotion that I don't want to do. And so I think, okay, they're doing this and that together. If I want to get there, then I have to do that.
If I'm not willing to do that, then I'm never going to get there or I'm never going to do that. So because if it has to do with success, for me, it's breaking down what leads to that success and is that something I'm prepared to do? And a lot of the times the answer is no. Now, the problem, of course, would be if I was already doing that, I wasn't getting the same results.
Yeah. Yeah. That's the one where you're like, oh, so I understand they need to be doing such and such, but I'm not capable of doing it at the level that I need. Oh, that's another one that I didn't even thought of that.
I was even in there. I'm doing it already, but it's not working for me. Yeah, but then again, but then for me, if I'm not capable of doing it at that level, I might prepare to work that hard to get my level higher. And if I am, let's do it and stop comparing and if not, then let's just be happy for the person.
But it's very hard. It's very hard. But that's a great that's actually bringing such a big dose of reality to it. Because a lot of the issue is that when you're comparing, you know, one of the stories you can tell yourself is like, for them, it's easy.
Look at that. Like, this naturally comes to them. And for me, it's such a struggle. I like it would take this enormous effort to get there and we don't necessarily think, well, they might have made that enormous effort to get there that I'm, I don't want to make or I'm not, you know, I haven't made yet or whatever.
But it makes it, I think to your point, it makes it a lot easier to stomach when you realize that it's not necessarily that you're just no good and they're great. It's the choices that you've made the effort that you've put in. And also, I think, I mean, sometimes I'm just kidding myself and, you know, I'm never going to get there just because whatever. But for example, when I listen to writers, some writers talk and they say, you know, they left their job and then in two years they were published.
They write these novels really quickly. They do all this or whatever. Then they carry on and they say, for example, it's a lot of journalists that then become writers, especially, and for example, if it's a journalist, that's become a nonfiction writer. I'm like, well, the work that they've put in hasn't been as a writer.
They put all that work before they arrive to this. So, and I'm just still climbing things that they did in the previous life. So, I think that understanding what you said, it might look easy to them. Well, it might look easy because they put all this work in a different way, even, maybe not even towards the thing they're getting now.
But they put a lot of work before that has then made that not acceptable viable, actually, that success. So, I mean, it's all in the head in the mind. Yeah, yeah, but it is really interesting and how I've had it just as a manager as well because to an extent you have to do some comparisons and comparisons will come to you know, there'll be like industry benchmarks or other teams will be performing like this or doing these things in your team isn't or needs to. And some of that you kind of point and often it's healthy, you know, it's healthy to see what other people are doing and it can help you see what can be improved and how to do it better.
But it can trigger things that we don't necessarily want to experience, you know, like it can really feed into things like imposter syndrome or insecurity or jealousy, you know, and so maybe that's where it becomes tricky as a sort of mindset or tendency to have as a manager is if you're constantly involved in comparison. How do you keep that being productive and helpful attribute as opposed to one that drives behavior that isn't serving you well? So there's two sides. So one is as an individual, this can do these things to us, which then affects how we are working, which would affect.
I mean, the most obvious thing is that it could well affect morale because that is the most obvious one that I think on the other, some of the least obvious ones are what I've seen and maybe less to be honest for myself because I've always had this on the one hand arrogance that I know how to do things my way. And so I don't have to do it like anyone else does it, even if they're getting great results. But you know, that's how they do it. I want to find my way.
So I don't know with that, but also this confidence actually that I'm okay. Therefore, I'm not as great at that, but it would like to come. I always believe that it would like to come or it would change or whatever. However, I have seen it in people I'm working with.
And for example, I give you a very concrete example that came to mind now, which is when we were earlier days of the theater company, we started our company along the same time as another two people, a kind of girl. We became such good friends and we were slightly linked because the girl who was running it was the cousin of someone we trained with. So we knew this theater company and they started more or less around the same time and really small doing small tours. They focus on children's theater.
Well, they're now one of the most respected theater companies in the UK. They call tall stories of anyone has children and they're going to one of their shows. They did the adaptation of the Grafalo. I mean, they're fantastic.
Oh, wow. Yes, they're very, very good. I love that too. Yes, it's not well.
I've never heard of it before I saw them. And they were sad. They were so hard. They worked really, really hard.
And sometimes I look to them and I could see them like how they were growing in a good way. And their work, I love their work as well. The style was my kind of style too. But I saw how hard they work and I wasn't prepared to work that hard, to be honest, because I've always like part of my enjoyment of work means to have enough time away from the work.
So I can rest. Yeah. And also they just were running things differently. They were different people.
But what started to happen as we progressed is that because we'd always been a little bit linked and the styles were relatively similar. And some of the ways of working were relatively similar. Some of our actors started to work for them as well. Oh, wow.
And of course, their social was successful. And at one point, I remember working with one of our actors and some of the suggestions and stuff he was making about not as well, actually about a few things was very much how they would do it. And I was thinking, you are comparing us. I mean, it's healthy what you're doing because you actually understand what they're doing.
And instead of going, oh, they're so good and we're not as good or whatever, instead of complaining, you're doing something about it. But I was also thinking, no, but we are not them. And if we approach that, then we will try to be then and we will always be second right because they're so good. Whereas it's good to see, well, they're doing this and this and this and this and like that.
We have to acknowledge what is working there, what they're doing well, what we could take from it. And then you need to forget about it while you carry on. And then as you say, even if the industry requires those benchmarks and even though it's very healthy to compare yourself to what else is going on, you need to forget about that. Put that to one side, continue with your own things and then maybe come back at some point and see, okay, if this is important to me, comparing myself to others, which sometimes is very important and needed.
Where am I now? But if I'd also been in that comparing, then getting to copying, that would have, well, I don't know, maybe it's successful. I don't know. You never know.
Yeah. So that's the bit that it's a way to, well, you know, that's the door you don't want to open is what the what if, the what if. Oh, of course. Yeah.
I can relate to everything that you said, everything is that when we're comparing without attaching judgment, without putting ourselves above or below what we're comparing to, but rather with this curiosity and what I particularly loved about the way you talked about it was that you work out, what do we want to take from this? And then that's stop the comparison and go back to our path. That was the process that I tried to follow, but the mental effort that it took to disconnect from the, you know, the doom spiral or the what ifs and then come back to, and I guess that's the difference between that tendency to go down that, you know, dark path. You know, sometimes it's shunned for it.
Like, oh, okay, there's just a bit of, I bet they're unhappy, I bet they're unhappy, but they don't get as much sleep as I do. Probably not fit. That's what it is. Probably drink too much.
You know, whatever it is, you're trying to find something. And that's, you know, trying to level that playing field of comparison, but when you come back to the confidence and realization that you're on your own pathway, and that that's the best approach for you is to go on your own pathway and to continue down that pathway, wherever it takes you. Yeah, then, you know, the ship studies and everything goes back to normal and then the joy of comparison is left for another day. Yes, I think it's difficult as well to, especially now that there's so much information available to us.
And that, I mean, I'm thinking very specifically of places like LinkedIn, where your friends and your colleagues, your peers, your mentors, like everyone is there. And you might be going in for a certain kind of experience and you cannot help but see and hear things that draw you towards those comparisons. I mean, to be honest, individually for me now, I just scroll really quickly because I, yes, I know that I compare my views to other people's views as well. I'm LinkedIn's not giving me many views anymore.
So my comparison is about, but now at the moment, but sometimes you just can't help it. It's just coming at you. And so that's very difficult. I think it was attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt, the quote, the comparison is the thief of Troy.
I remember at Shield, having a conversation with somebody who asked me what my motivation was, like, where was I trying to get to? And, you know, I had something about wanting to provide for my family and having a good long-term outcome. And then I said to them, so what's your motivation? And they were like, I want to be number one.
And I remember being shocked, shocked because I thought, my God, for me, that would be such a path to unhappiness because how would you even know? And even if you were, how would you ever maintain that? Like, it's so ephemeral. But that's comparison.
Like, you're only number one, if you can say, well, because I'm better than them and they're number two. Well, that goes into competitiveness, which is, I don't know if it's a different one. I think maybe it is a different mindset because I think they're linked, obviously. But I think it's a different kind of mindset that you would bring.
So what is the role of this? So are we looking just at the mindset that we bring? Is this something we can take away from the comparison mindset? Well, I think the takeaway that we've come to is that this is a tendency that we can slip into.
And it's part, like, you can't avoid it. It's going to come up from time to time. And that the approach that has essential worked for both of us is that if you can, you want to try and detach judgment from it. And rather understand that when you're comparing your circumstance or your situation to somebody else's, that it can be helpful in terms of understanding, trying to understand what is it that you like about their circumstance or dislike about their circumstance and like about your own.
What is that comparison? And what might have caused it? And what's it trying to tell you? Is it trying to tell you that you really, you know, to your point before?
Like, if you think they're doing this thing that I really love, or I would really love, but it takes this much work, is that you thinking, like, now I want to commit to doing this much work because I really want to get there? Or is it you going, you know, like to get there? But I get if I'm doing the work to get there. So, you know, I'll let that one go.
Yes, yes. And I think that's also an interesting approach to bring to our team. If anyone there, if we observe that anyway, has that tendency, because it could be very disruptive and demotivating for someone to be there. But in order to just go, okay, well, what are you seeing?
And again, dissecting the experience of what we can learn from it and what we can use and then what we can ask to leave to one side. Yeah, that's a brilliant point because I didn't even think of that as a manager. You know, you think about just think about people going through their careers and, oh, I should have a promotion by now. You know, I should get this level.
All my friends from school are doing such an adventure. I'm so like, that's a very common thing that comes up and helping people through it because it does get easier as you get older. I think you do share a lot of your hang ups about where you should be and what should be happening because life beats it out of you. Stop comparing.
I do think there's two sides to this. One is that someone might be comparing because that's their tendency and maybe, you know, I've been trying to get a race and this other person has got a race or has been promoted and I never get promoted and I can compare myself. And sometimes there are good reasons for that they might not be seeing. So, you know, I suppose that's a judgment call of what we do or it could also be about comparing other teams, how things are happening in an organization.
And so just understanding that. But also, I think if we've learned not to do that as well or if we don't have such a tendency to compare because we're so focused on what we're doing, I do think that sometimes listening to someone in the team who is maybe going further down that path could be very useful because sometimes there is something there that they're seeing and maybe they can't let it go in the ways that we'd like to. But sometimes there is something that others are seeing that we are not if they're inclined to be making these comparisons. I think that's also I'm just thinking, yeah, I think it's my own experience whether I should have listened a bit more in that way.
Yeah, well, and to like, it's not necessarily a negative thing. If people use it as a motivator, if they're using it to show them the path forward. And there are examples I have of that where I, you know, there are companies that I manage that I admire and that I wanted to emulate. And that's a form of comparison, right?
Like I'm like, oh, you know, they're doing these things I'd love to be able to do that. And I'm going to try and follow that path to get there because I would love for my company to be operating similarly to their company or I'd like my team to be operating somewhere from him. Or I would like to be respected or liked or trusted by this person. So, you know, willing to do the work and to do it.
Like, there are positive aspects. I guess for me, I haven't focused so much on those. I've focused on the dangers that comparison has served me. Maybe our next topic should be the pessimistic.
Is it not? I think it is. It is. It is.
One more thing before, just something I thought of that. Actually, another negative aspect of comparison because we've been talking all the time mainly about comparing ourselves. And what happens if we think someone's doing better than us? But there's also the complacency that can arise when people think they're doing okay because they're compared to others themselves to others who aren't doing worse.
And I think again, that within the workplace, again, either at an individual level or at a team level could also be something to look out for is that when things around us are falling apart so much that our team's starting to fall apart because actually, as long as we're just a little bit better than everyone else, we're okay. Oh, yeah. And at all the pride that, you know, our audience is contributing. I also, something that I've experienced is where people are very focused on that as opposed to, like, you know, there are problems going on, for example, and people are, but this person's doing this and that other person's doing it.
And I'm doing this, but they're not doing that. And you're like, just focus on yourself. Like you kind of control what everyone else is doing here. And it doesn't help to just point fingers at everybody.
And, you know, I'm great. Everyone else is terrible. Like, you also have to take control of your own situation. Oh, well, this is taking all sorts of avenues I wasn't expecting.
It's going to be too good. Loads and loads to think about. So I would love to hear if any stories about any of this, about the comparison, whether it's healthy, how do they help other people are comparing themselves to others, whether if you're a manager and you are navigating this within your team and love, another story, love stories. So, managementcafepodcast at gmail.com, managementcafepodcast.com for the contact form, anything you would like to say to listeners before we move on to having a coffee over our next pessimistic question.
Oh, no, no, I'm ready to have the next coffee. I'm excited. I'm excited about pessimism. Well, listeners, coffee is almost over for us.
We're going to head over now to the cafe next door and have another coffee and we'll team. But for now, coffee is over for us. And now it's over to you. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Management Cafe.
You've been listening to Tim Burgess and Pilar Ortiz. Remember to subscribe to the show on whatever podcast coffee use. And if you want to get in touch, you can do so over at managementcafepodcast.com. Coffee's over for us.
Now it's over to you. Thank you for listening.