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Search Parent Chat on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. If it's Monday, U.S. Secretary of State Nancy Blinken urges Hamas to accept a ceasefire deal and release 33 hostages. We could be the last chance for a pause in fighting and the release of hostages before Israel launched a ground operation in southern Gaza.
Plus, we're following the war's escalating fallout at home as Columbia University tries to crack down on anti-war protesters, ordering students to leave their intent or face immediate suspension. And what the news diets of voters say about whether they're more likely to support Joe Biden or Donald Trump, we've got the brand new NBC News polling as the campaigns battle over the airwaves and in the headlines. Welcome to Meet the Press Now. I'm Yami Shafandor in Washington.
Today, we begin with a new urgent effort to secure a ceasefire agreement in Gaza. It comes as the window of opportunity narrows ahead of a potential Israeli offensive in Wafa. Israeli officials tell NBC News that they're waiting for a response from Hamas to their latest deal proposal. It would include the release of hostages, and that group would include women, children, the elderly, and those with serious medical conditions.
That number is down from the 40 hostages proposed earlier this month. At the time, Hamas indicated it may not have 40 hostages that fit that criteria. Today in Saudi Arabia, Secretary of State Nancy Blinken met with Arab leaders and urged Hamas to accept the proposed deal. Right now, as you said, Hamas has before a proposal that is extraordinarily, extraordinarily generous on the part of Israel.
And in this moment, the only thing standing between the people of Gaza and a ceasefire is Hamas. They have to decide, and they have to decide quickly. That comes after President Biden spoke with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday, the second conversation between the two leaders this month. According to the White House, it discussed those ongoing hostage talks, and President Biden once again reiterated his position that Israel needs a plan to protect civilians before launching an operation into Wafa.
Meanwhile, Israeli leaders are growing increasingly worried that the International Criminal Court may issue an arrest warrant for Prime Minister Netanyahu and other top Israeli officials tied to past actions in the region. Now, neither Israel nor the U.S. recognize the jurisdiction of the ICC, but it would be a significant review by the High Court. NBC News International Correspondent Ross Sanchez is in Tel Aviv with more.
There is a real sense of urgency right now about getting to a ceasefire deal before the start of Israel's threatened offensive in the city of Rafa. An Israeli official tells NBC News the current proposal on the table would see the release of 33 hostages in the first stage of a deal in exchange for a temporary ceasefire and the release of Palestinian prisoners. Now, those hostages would be from the so-called humanitarian category, so that is women, children, the elderly, people with serious medical conditions. The number 33 is down from the previous number of 40 because Hamas has indicated it may not have 40 living hostages who fit that criteria.
There is a delegation of Hamas officials in Cairo today speaking to Egyptian mediators. An Israeli official tells me an Israeli team may head to the Egyptian capital tomorrow depending on the progress. As Secretary of State, Lincoln is in Saudi Arabia. Earlier today, he describes the offer on the table as incredibly generous to Hamas, urging the militant group to go ahead and to accept it.
Hamas over the weekend releasing another hostage video once again showing an American-Israeli hostage, this time Keith Siegel. He is the oldest American hostage still in captivity. Hamas is framing this as a gesture of goodwill, a sign it is willing to negotiate. The Israeli government seems at this point internally divided over the prospects of this deal.
Some of the far-right members of Prime Minister Netanyahu's cabinet saying Israel should focus on attacking Rafa. But some of the more moderate members, including War Cabinet Minister Benny Gantz, saying the priority right now needs to be bringing the hostages home and that Rafa can wait. Separately, an Israeli official tells NBC News Israel is deeply concerned that potentially as early as this week, the International Criminal Court may issue arrest warrants for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli defense minister, and senior Israeli military officials. This official says Israel is waging a concerted diplomatic campaign to try to head off those warrants.
Now, if they are issued, it would not lead to the immediate arrest of Prime Minister Netanyahu, but it could make it difficult for him to travel in Europe and other places that are signatories to the ICC. And it would put him in the unwelcome shared category as Vladimir Putin, who has his own arrest warrant for alleged war crimes committed in Ukraine. We asked the ICC about this claim. They said that while they do have an investigation open, they won't comment on potential arrest warrants.
Back to you. Thank you so much, Rob, for that reporting. And joining me now by phone from Riyadh is NBC News Chief Washington correspondent and Chief Foreign Affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell. Also with me is Gay Gutierrez, who's at the White House with Andrea.
In this moment, how urgent is the need to get this ceasefire proposal across the finish line? And what are you hearing from Arab leaders in particular in the region? Well, in both U.S. and Arab leaders, officials are telling us that they think that this is critical, that it's either now or never.
I talked to an Arab diplomat, a top Arab diplomat today in the talks, who told me exclusively that this is an inspection point, that it will be a wider war if they don't do this now. And U.S. officials feel as urgently that they're close once, but if this doesn't go through, it's not going to happen. The pressure is really great on Netanyahu, and also on being on the road is increasingly difficult these days.
Communication is just a problem today. Apologies. What U.S. officials are hearing is that if this does not get agreed to, it is simply not going to come together.
They believe that Netanyahu, once he goes in Iraq, as he's entered into, will widen the war and threaten the lives of surviving hostages. And how many hostages are still there is even an issue. If you believe that it must go through 33, you know, it's not sure. They think that it could be even fewer, as you are getting less as well.
Egypt and Qatar are pressing very, very hard for this to come together. It all comes down to one man, Sinmar, the leader of Hamas, who is the mastermind, they believe, of the 2% of the massacre. And he has been hiding underground in the tunnels. They've not been able to get to it.
And he's been the one who's taking the questions. But the pressure from Qatar and Egypt on Hamas to Iran and other intermediaries can try to get Hamas to agree to this. Because the U.S. now says it's not Israel.
They're holding this up. They're agreeing to a lawless ceasefire. It's all on Hamas. Yeah.
Yeah. I want to also ask you, Andrea, as you talk about this being now or never, there's also, of course, the issue of aid. You're traveling with the Secretary of State right now. Israel, he has said it needs to do more to get aid into Gaza.
We know that Israel, at one point, said they were opening a new border crossings in the north on a new port off the coast of Israel to get more aid in. What's the latest on that front? The aid is just not getting in. I mean, the truck's getting, more trucks are getting in.
It's not getting where it needs to get. And that won't happen until they have a ceasefire. So hostage release and aid all dependent on the ceasefire. I talked to David Nodan this weekend.
He was in Washington. And he and other non-government groups have been saying that that aid is just desperate. And this is what Senator Reagan has been saying. He's been pushing since week three for the aid to get in.
And it just is not getting in. They did open the other crossings, but it is stopped at the border often. And the entire trucker will be turned back if they find something that they think is something that Hamas could use. I was talking to officials here today, Arab leaders, who say they need to try to rescue people from under the level.
They need to try to clean up, you know, horrible conditions where people are now in summers. It's approaching summer in Gaza. And the heat is unbearable. Bodies are still lying around.
They need all kinds of equipment that Israel says could be used by Hamas and therefore is turned away at the border. It's a tough, tough situation, Andrew, that you described there. I want to also ask you about the issue of the International Criminal Court potentially issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Netanyahu. We said at the top that the U.S.
are not signatories to the ICC, but that could possibly complicate Benjamin Netanyahu's travel to maybe other places like Europe. So could this significantly change Netanyahu's standing here in the world if he is now a subject of this arrest warrant? It's a real problem. In fact, there are reports that Netanyahu asked President Biden about this himself on the call.
They're pushing back through all kinds of diplomatic channels because it would further isolate, you know, obviously. The U.S. statesman said today that there is no legal authority for the International Criminal Court to go after Netanyahu and to provide these arrests for war crimes. But Israel, Israeli officials believe it is happening.
Yeah. Well, the always-entrusted Andrea Mitchell, thank you so much for coming to us and for traveling from the Secretary of State with us. Gabe, of course, to you, President Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu, they spoke yesterday. That conversation, as we reported, included discussions about Israel's ground operations, possible ground operation into Rafa.
What more do we know about where that stands, given the U.S. concern over a potential civilian death there? And do we know if Israel made any sort of new commitments during that phone call? Oh, hi there, Yamiche.
Well, according to the readout that came out yesterday of that call between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu, they discussed Rafa, as you mentioned, and the readout said that the President made clear his vision, or discussed his clear vision for what happens in Rafa, but the readout itself didn't go into what that was. So the Press Secretary, Karine Jumpier, was asked about that this afternoon, and she said that the President's position on this really hasn't changed. The U.S. has repeatedly been saying that they do not support a military operation in Rafa unless Israel can provide some sort of credible plan to limit civilian casualties.
As of now, we're told, Israel has not shown the U.S. that plan. But this all comes as President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu have been speaking, and the Prime Minister yesterday, we're told, made some new commitments in terms of humanitarian aid, and Israel is set to open new northern crossings in the area, in Gaza, later this week, Yamiche. And as you talk about those new commitments in this situation in Gaza, of course, the President is facing so much pressure at home here in the United States for his handling of the war.
How is the White House reacting to all of that pressure, as we're seeing, of course, protests all across the country here? Well, certainly, we're seeing those increased protests at several college campuses across this country today. And the White House officials, when they're asked about it, really don't comment directly on those protests, other than to say that those students have the right to peacefully protest. But Green Jump here this afternoon, didn't want to get into second-guessing any of those school administrators.
But we're also told by campaign officials that they're looking at this more broadly. And according to public polling in their own research, in their view, they think that this is a very small slice of the electorate, these protests. And so, moving forward, they think that other issues will dominate this campaign, such as the economy. And they believe that this really isn't a top issue for younger voters down the line.
That is very interesting to hear that from the campaign, given the reporting of what he's been doing about people's views on the war. But I also want to ask you about Hamas releasing more hostage videos, including two Israeli-American hostages within the last week. What's the White House saying about these videos? Well, look, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan was asked about this several days ago when one of those videos was coming out.
And the White House's view is that they've been asking for proof of life of these hostages, really, since the beginning. So they aren't speaking to the exact motivations of Hamas for why Hamas might be releasing these videos. But as Andrea mentioned earlier, they really viewed this narrow window of time before any potential military operation in Rafa. They viewed this as the best chance for a deal.
And the administration from Secretary of State Blinken to President Biden has been saying that now is the time to strike this deal and they're urging Hamas to take it. Well, certainly a lot of urgency there. Thank you so much, Gabe, from the White House. Let me now bring in Ambassador Dennis Ross.
He's former special assistant for President Obama for the Mideast region and NBC News Foreign Affairs analyst. Thank you so much for joining us. Good to be with you. Now, today, Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, is, of course, in Riyadh.
As we noted, how optimistic are you that these hostage talks are truly going to gain steam here, that they could actually lead to a deal given all that's happening? Well, I don't want to say I'm optimistic. I'm hopeful, but I'm not optimistic. The reason I'm not optimistic is because Hamas is releasing these videos less to show proof of life and more to try to manipulate the emotions, to try to build pressures on Israel, to get Israel to concede to everything that Hamas is asking for.
The real issue is, will there be sufficient pressure on Hamas for them to make a decision? Certainly, Yahya Sinwar, who is really the leader of Hamas in Gaza, and he's somewhere in a tunnel, he's responsible for making the decision to release passages, much more than the political leadership of Hamas that may be in Doha and Qatar. Having said all that, the fact that the Israelis look like they're actually preparing the ground to do something in Rafa, maybe that is increasing the pressure on him. The key has always been, at what point would he decide that he's interested in a reprieve, because the noose is tightening so much around him that he makes a decision to go ahead and do that.
It's possible that the circumstances right now are such that he's feeling more pressure. If that's true, the odds of it will go up. But we've seen before, lots of hints of optimism, and then those hints of optimism don't get translated into reality. So, especially as you say, hopeful but not optimistic, our Andrew Mitchell has just mentioned that U.S.
officials feel they're working against the clock really to get this deal done, and even as they doubt Israelis are ready for such an invasion, given that reporting, could this be the last chance to bring hostages home, especially when you think about the fact that Andrew just said it feels like it's now or never? I'm not certain that's the case. The reason, again, I'm not certain it's the case is we don't know for sure where Sinwar is. Maybe he's in a rough area.
Maybe the Israelis will go into the tunnels there. But we do know that, basically, he's holding the hostages. He sees them as a card. Even after the Israelis have gone into Rafa, assuming he gets to that, he will still likely be holding hostages.
He will still be a card. He will still try to trade them away for something. So I'm not sure it's now or never, but it's clearly a moment where there seems to be a lot of interest on the part of the Egyptians. The Egyptians do have the ability to create different kinds of pressures on Hamas.
Sinwar may decide that the combination of Egyptian pressure and the prospect of an Israeli move into Rafa gives him a reason to seek the reprieve. That's why I say that could be an element of his calculus. I'm not sure that the idea, as long as he has a card to play, that necessarily means he'll never play them. I also want to ask you about the domestic pressure that Benjamin Netanyahu is facing.
We spend a lot of time talking about the domestic pressure that President Biden is facing, but in this case, Benjamin Netanyahu, there are a lot of people that are angry at him. What do you think the pressure could be on him if he doesn't take the opportunity to bring these hostages home in this moment? I think you put your finger on something that is increasingly significant. Hamas is not, when they release these videos, it does increase pressures within Israel.
You're talking about 204 days into this. The hostage families whose life was frozen, has been frozen since last October 7th. What they're feeling, what many in Israel are feeling, many in Israel feel, if you don't get the hostages back, whatever you claim about your successes, they're going to ring very hollow. So I do think the pressure within Israel is building.
I do think the readiness of the Israelis to become even more flexible in terms of some of the terms that they might offer. And when you have the Secretary of State saying what the Israeli offers is a generous offer, that's clearly something that suggests there's been a move on the Israeli side. There's been criticism from within the Israeli hostage team that's negotiating, the negotiators, that the mandate they had wasn't brought enough. That was a couple of weeks ago, then even a week ago.
So I think we're seeing a change, and I think the change is a function of the pressures that Netanyahu has had. feeling. I also want to ask you, as you talk about the pressures that Netanyahu's feeling, there's the issue of Rafa. If Israel does actually go into Rafa, which is, we should know, the most southern point now, is there a scenario where that could possibly bring this war closer to a conclusion?
I mean, what happens next if you're at the southernmost point? Where does Israel go from here? I think, you know, again, this is a really significant point to be focused on. A lot depends upon how the Israelis ultimately define what their objective is.
I've been making the argument throughout. Their objective should be the demilitarization of Gaza. They're not going to eliminate Hamas any more than we could eliminate ISIS. But the demilitarization of Gaza, if then tied to commitments from the U.S.
and from others in the region to ensure there can never be a remilitarization of Gaza, then you achieve an objective that Hamas in Gaza can never again threaten you. Well, that's a significant achievement. Now, the reason I raise it in the context of the question is that Rafa is where the last four battalions of Hamas exist. If they do Rafa, and by the way, I still think this is four to six weeks away, because that's how long it's going to take to evacuate the 1.3 million Palestinians who are there, evacuate them to places where they can be absorbed in terms of shelter, food, medicine, water.
So it's still going to take time to get there, number one. But let's say that in the end, we don't get a hostage deal. And then let's say in six weeks, the Israelis go in, and they basically defeat or dismantle the last four battalions. If Israel's in a position to say, okay, we achieved what we needed to achieve, and that could lead to an end of this.
Well, thank you so much, Ambassador Dennis Ross. You're welcome. Coming up, cracking down on college campus protests. We're live at Columbia University, where students are defying a 2 p.m.
deadline set by administrators to disband their pro-Houstonian encampments. Plus, we'll get the latest from Capitol Hill as House lawmakers eye legislation to combat anti-Semitism on campus and across America. Don't go anywhere. You're watching me.
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You're looking at images out of Columbia University, where pro-Palestinian protesters are saying that they are not moving after defining a deadline to clear out their encampment or bis suspension. This comes after the university said it will not digest from Israel, one of the protesters' key demands. Meanwhile, at UT Austin, the university officials say police arrested protesters and dismantled the campus encampment this afternoon. All of this is happening as the president is taking criticism from both sides of the aisle over the Israel-Hamas war.
A new poll shows just 28% of Americans approve of his handling of the war, including less than half of Democrats. The Biden administration is also facing pressure over its response to the pro-Palestinian protests sweeping across college campuses. Some Jewish lawmakers and community leaders are also accusing Biden of not doing enough to respond to anti-Semitic incidents that have occurred as part of the protests. This weekend, speaking with my colleague, Kristen Walker, Virginia Senator Tim Cain, said the president has a role to play in addressing the tensions playing out at colleges.
This is a tough one because people have a right to protest and make their views known, and almost, you know, overwhelming percentages of people do that peacefully, but there are those who intimidate or harass others. There are those who speak in hate speech or anti-Semitism, and so giving people the latitude to do what they ought to be able to do, and also trying to curb on acceptable behavior is tough. I think the president can use the bully pulpit to kind of hold up some good examples, and I would hope that he and other members of the administration might do that. NBC News correspondent Antonia Hilton joins me now from the campus of Columbia University.
So, Antonia, this deadline came and went, the encampment is still there, so what is the latest on the ground if you look at what's going on there with these students? You're right, the encampment is very much still here, and students are back to what they've always been doing, which is eating, relaxing, napping in the encampment, almost as though this 2 p.m. deadline had never existed. Many of them were thinking that, at minimum, someone from the administration would come at 2 o'clock to say something to them, or that the NYPD or the campus police would enter, and there'd be some kind of confrontation, but it appears the administration has allowed their own deadline, that they set this morning, to essentially expire.
Students were really concerned about this for a while. I have the documents that they handed out to students who were here in the encampment. It says, notice to encampment. I'm going to hand this out to everyone who was in this area earlier today, asking them to sign their name here, to identify themselves, and that was going to be the only way that you could get out of suspension or possible expulsion, the only way to end the semester in good standing.
But what ended up happening was hundreds, if not maybe over 1,000 students, many of whom had nothing to do with the encampment at all, have been here rallying, hanging out in different corners at times, struggling the entire campus to show the administration that they're on their classmates' side. You know, this is a campus of only a bit over 3,000, so it's a significant number of people who have been part of the protest today, and now, you know, everyone's waiting to see what does the administration do? They missed their own deadline. They've been silent for hours now.
What signal are they next going to send to these kids? It's going to be fascinating to see as we continue to watch what happens here. Now, the university says it won't divest from Israel, which has been a key demand of these protests. So how are the student protesters reacting to that specific statement by the university, and is there a sense of what they might do next?
The student organizers have told me that they felt that the university was not, at most points during negotiations, operating in good faith. That was their view. And so they weren't necessarily surprised that the school announced this morning that they had no plans to divest from Israel or organizations and businesses operating there. But what they say is that this has just really increased their resolve.
And the other piece of this is that they're seeing these encampments spread all over the country, from Massachusetts to Indiana to Tennessee and California. There are dozens of them now, and it sent them a signal that they have started something here. And so I think, in a way, it has made them feel as though they can't back down. What the administration wanted them to do was voluntarily pack up all of their belongings, shut down these tents, and just get out of here by 2 p.m.
But the students felt like there was really no point at which they could just simply do that. What they've done is separate themselves into two groups now. So we have students who say they are willing to risk arrest, suspension, expulsion. We even have faculty members who say that they're willing to risk arrest, and they plan to either barricade or support their students in some fashion if it comes to that.
And then there are some students who say they are planning to leave the encampment tonight because they need to graduate this semester or they need to make sure they get their credits, and they can't risk any of these consequences to each. And, Antonia, you just mentioned California is being one of the places where this is spread. We've seen at least one university, USC, cancel graduation amid these protests. What's Columbia saying about their commencement plans in two weeks, especially amid all these security concerns?
Well, what we've heard from President Manu Shafiq, the Columbia president, is that they're going to go ahead with commencement as planned. That's just a couple weeks away. And her hope was that this would all be cleared out because this lawn is all part of what commencement looks like. Everything you see behind me is part of the ceremony.
And she mentioned in her note that it was really important to her in this case because this is a community A class, that in 2020, they sat on their own high school graduations. A lot of them were virtual or extremely distanced. It wasn't the typical feeling and celebration that many of us get to remember. So she said it was important to her to the administration to make sure that families who come from all over the world to take part in the celebrations that they've always had in mind.
Some of the students I speak to, though, say that's a risk they're willing to take. Yeah, well, Antonia, I know you've been doing great reporting out there, so thank you for joining us. Turning now to Capitol Hill this week, the House is back, and it is set to vote on a bipartisan anti-Semitism bill that could reignite divisions among Democrats. It comes after House Speaker Mike Johnson spoke from Columbia's campus last week, threatening federal funding for colleges who don't create safe environments for Jewish students.
The focus on campus protest also comes as Speaker Johnson is looking for issues to unite his Republican conference and as he faces a threat from conservatives who are angry about his support for aid to Ukraine. Joining me now from Capitol Hill, so of course, if you just laid it out, you have New York Republican Mike Lawler who's introduced a bipartisan bill to combat anti-Semitism on campuses. How likely is that to pass? And when you're hearing from lawmakers who oppose that bill, what are they saying?
It's got a decent shout-out passage, I mean, especially if Republicans unify or largely unify, they don't lose too many votes because this bill called the Anti-Semitism Awareness Act has the co-sponsorship of a number of moderate Democrats. We're on the pro-Israel side here. Specifically, the bill would revise the definition of anti-Semitism that the U.S. Department of Education uses to enforce anti-discrimination laws.
It's a more encompassing definition that it would adopt resembling the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition. It would forbid things like calling the existence of Israel racist. It would forbid stereotypes and tropes about Jewish people controlling the government or institution here. It would also forbid comparing Israeli government policy to the Nazis.
There are a couple of reasons that there are divisions here. The first is lawmakers have differences of opinion in terms of where to draw the line between free speech and legitimate academic expression on one hand and threats, intimidation, and racism on the other hand. It's a very complicated issue among good faith, people who disagree in good faith on this issue. There's also the question of how to combat the issue of anti-Semitism.
There are some, like the House Minority Leader, Hakeem Jeffries, who have called on Speaker Johnson to put a different bill to the floor that would establish a White House coordinator to do kind of a whole-of-government response to anti-Semitism. So again, differences of opinion on how to go about this, but as long as Johnson can keep most of his Republicans in line, he's got a good shot at passing the bill. Well, Sal, as you talk about House Speaker Mike Johnson trying to keep Republicans in line, he still faces that motion to vacate. So what's the latest there?
And is he really trying to in some ways call Marjorie Taylor Greene's bluff? Well, of course, the person that has been saying at one point that his days were numbered, that she's going to keep pushing forward with that motion to vacate. Yeah, this whole thing was started by Marjorie Taylor Greene, the far-right Georgia congresswoman, who has been dangling this threat over the Speaker's head for weeks now. She has described aid to Ukraine as a red line, of course, that Mike Johnson called her bluff, put that on the floor, and it did pass overwhelmingly, mostly with the support of Democrats, and it split Republicans about half and half within the conference.
And she still has not called the motion to vacate, but she is still lobbing rhetorical grenades his way. Let's show a recent tweet of Marjorie Taylor Greene, where she says Mike Johnson has betrayed Republicans so badly that she says he will cost Republicans a house majority if he's remained. She accuses him of bowing to President Biden, giving him everything he wanted. And she adds, people are saying there's no difference between Johnson and Pelosi, of course, referring to former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the Democrat.
Whether and when Marjorie Taylor Greene plans to call this remains a mystery she has not said. And part of the question here is whether she has the vote. She only has two Republicans on the record right now saying they will vote with her to depose Mike Johnson. But the difference between now and last time when they did this with Kevin McCarthy is that a number of senators Democrats have said they will vote down the motion to vacate, essentially rescuing Mike Johnson because he followed through with that deal to fund the government because he put Ukraine aid on the floor.
I think he's won some goodwill with at least some portion of Democrats. And what Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't want is to call this on the floor and face a humiliating defeat when the margins are already so tiny with Republicans. Thank you so much, Kyle, for that reporting from Capitol Hill. Up next, you've probably heard the saying you are what you eat, but new poll numbers seem to show that you are what you watch and what you reap.
We'll show those new poll numbers and what they need for 2020 next, 2024 next. You're watching Meet the Press now. Welcome back. Turning now to presidential politics, we've got some new numbers from our NBC News poll looking at how voters will vote and where they're getting their new numbers from and their news from.
Donald Trump is the clear-cut choice among voters who do not follow political news. President Biden does best among voters who get their news from national numbers and old-fashioned newspapers. The numbers are closer among cable news viewers and those who get their news from social media. So what does this tell us about November and each campaign strategy to reach out to key voting blocs?
Joining me now on set is Eugene Scott. He's a senior politics reporter at CEO's Megan Hayes, Democratic strategist and former Biden White House staffer and Republican strategist Doug High. So, Eugene, I want to start with you. Looking at these news consumption numbers, I wonder what comes out to you, especially when you think, OK, people who like newspapers are going to like the president, and people who maybe aren't following the news, the Trump trial, all this stuff, they still like Donald Trump.
Well, I think it's actually been consistent with what we have seen. When we talk to focus groups at Axios, we know that those who haven't been paying attention don't know what they want to do yet. They aren't completely for Biden. They are still opposed to Trump.
But what we do know is that those who aren't faithfully paying attention to the news have not been reminded of the things that happened during the Trump presidency that have turned so many people away from him. And in that regard, I wonder, if you don't consume news regularly, Doug, I wonder what you think people are seeing out there and sort of what they're in some ways frozen in time thinking about if they think about Donald Trump. Well, I think it tells us that we often hear the phrase low-information voters. Those are voters who are more likely to turn out in a presidential year than a midterm year.
So not a surprise that Republicans have struggled in passing midterms when the presidential elections have been relatively close. Like that's certainly some example we'll see ultimately coming up in the elections. And also with news consumption, a lot of that is real hate consumption to Donald Trump. The more you dislike Donald Trump, it seems the more you're watching the trial from, you know, gavel to gavel, the more you're reading op-eds and opinion pieces against Donald Trump, sort of confirmation bias.
I think that's coming through as well. And I think the more protective you are of Trump, the less likely you are probably to pay attention to this trial because you could be reminded of all of the issues that people point out about him. And before I get something, I want to ask you, Doug, because there's this interesting, I guess, sort of confluence. You have these known news consumers in a poll.
They kind of also dovetail people who say they're registered voters who didn't vote in 2020 and 2022. So these people who might not be following the news, Donald Trump might have a challenge of actually turning them out. What do you make of that? Look, we often want to go to polling.
The question is whether they're registered voters or likely voters. This is part of what Donald Trump's challenge is, is to replicate what he did, especially in 2016. He got a lot of people to vote for the first time, or the first time in a long time. He needs them now four years or eight years later.
Megan, just jump in here when you think about some of the new polls that are out, especially the ones that are showing the Greece tide close, some of them even showing President Biden down. Yeah, I think, look, the only polls that matter are the ones in November on election day, so you can't listen to it by the polls. But I also think that one thing, instead of watching the polls, maybe we should look back to the results from Pennsylvania when, you know, over 100,000 people, I think, turned out for Haley. People are still voting for her.
That means they're not going to vote for Donald Trump. And those people are going to vote for Joe Biden in general. So, you know, whether the head-to-head polls are showing that Trump is ahead right now in April, that doesn't mean that that's going to matter in November, because there's a long time between now and then. Is that the view of the people around President Biden, even the president himself, when they look at these polls, especially when CBS News had a poll showing systemic states, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, that's just sort of where they think about this.
I mean, I think that going back to the primaries in 2019, we had a philosophy on the campaign, you don't live and die by the polls, because we would have never made it through Iowa if we would have done that. So I mean, that's just sort of our philosophy. But I do think they look at them and take them seriously on what to a just messaging-wise and who they need to be more focused on. But I don't think that the president is sitting there, you know, very upset about the polls in April when he knows that November is a long time.
And with the Haley voters, obviously, we saw the day that Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis have finally sat down. Well, it is really past time for the Trump campaign and Trump himself to reach out to Nikki Haley to try and win her over and certainly win over some of her voters. I was at a Haley rally in North Carolina, one of her last three or four. And the people were wearing permanently banned t-shirts, probably not gettable, but the rest of them are gettable for Trump, but he's got to work to do it.
If he's reaching out to the census now, it's probably going to be a while before he reaches out to Haley. And it seems hard that Haley would actually come over, given just her rhetoric, but hey, anything can happen, of course. I also want to ask Eugene about the president's handling of the war between Israel and Hamas. He's getting it from both sides here, and I wonder if there's any sort of chance here that he could convince one side or both sides that they don't have to be.
Because any time you look at the polls, you see how frustrated people are, or is he just basically hoping that the war might not? You know, I'm very interested in this strategy going forward, because it's not, to your point, just young people anymore or progressives. I think, in general, a lot of people in the Democratic establishment are looking at this conflict and are just not satisfied with what the White House is doing. And he's going to have to figure out a way beyond Trump would be worse to convince these individuals that he's the best person to handle it.
I don't think we see polling, though, that shows that this is a top issue for voters. And I think that surprises a lot of people I speak with, who it is a top issue for. Even young people, who we generally think are really upset with Biden about it, it still ranks lower than, like, the economy for many of them. So the president's going to focus on it, but I don't know how much energy he's going to put into it.
Maybe that's not a top issue. In a place like Pennsylvania or Michigan, where you just have a sliver, sometimes, of the electorate that you need to maybe put you over the edge. Is that a mission for him? I mean, I think it's an issue I think he's been dealt with.
I also think it's more than just a political issue here, right? He's not pushing a rock in a hard spot on all of this. They need to have a path to peace. they need to have a ceasefire reaction to get more aid into Gaza.
So it's like he's between a rock and a heart as a leader in the world here to help solve this problem. But I think your point about people are not, this is not a top issue for them. It ranks like far down the list. I don't think it's a top five for a lot of people in some of these battleground states.
The economy, you know, abortions are much higher on people's list. So I think when we're looking at the hate voters, I think that those are going to be issues that are going to turn either for Trump or Biden. So, you know, it's an issue, but I don't think it's going to necessarily impact the election. And that is interesting because you have House Speaker Mike Johnson going to Colombia and somebody sort of trying to point the blame at President Biden, even though the protesters are against President Biden.
So I wonder, could this be a salient issue for Republicans, even though in some ways these are people that are protesting President Biden? Well, first and foremost, it was a salient issue for Mike Johnson to shore up Republicans after passing the Israel and Ukraine funding bill. The best images that he could have for his conference meeting when the House convenes tomorrow is to show that video of him being booed by college protesters. That is catnip for Republican voters and for Republican members of Congress.
More broadly, I don't think we know yet how that's going to play with the electorate. But you used the word sliver earlier, and I think it's part of the challenge that both of these candidates have. They sort of have the same problems, is that any sliver of any voter in any of the six or seven states that are most contested are a real problem for them. You lose two or three points with any of those.
You're underwater quickly. Yeah. You talked a little bit about Trump and DeSantis getting back together and getting together in the first place. Eugene, how important do you think that is for Republicans to start consolidating?
Well, it's important for Trump, who needs the money, right? One of the main reasons for that meeting was, you know, DeSantis has a bunch of wealthy donors that helped him get as far as he did. And Trump is having to pay a lot of legal fees, campaigning, despite, you know, branding himself as an incredibly wealthy person. Like, he's running into some challenges.
And so whether or not he's going to be able to, you know, get it over the finish line could be dependent upon whether DeSantis opens his pocketbooks or encourages those who did for him to do so for Trump. That being said, Megan, I wonder, is there any space here you think for President Biden to come in, even if you look at those Nikki Haley voters, to maybe sort of make any sort of inroads there? I mean, I think he is making inroads. I think it would be an issue.
I think he is making massive inroads with those types of voters, that demographic of voters. But I think, you know, the Democratic Party is shorted up, their base is shorted up, but I do think that there needs to be more work done. I don't think that there's inroads with, like, DeSantis voters for Joe Biden, but you just never know. You never say never.
That's some split ticket. Yeah. They exist, but there aren't many of them. Yeah.
And I guess the thing on my mind is, as we look at all this, do you think Donald Trump sort of will pivot at all after this meeting with DeSantis? Do you think he's going to learn something about sort of the way to capture those voters? If we've learned anything over past years, Donald Trump does not pivot. He plows forward, and that's his goal.
Well, thank you so much, Eugene. Megan, Doug, thank you. And after the break, my interview with an independent candidate looking to pull off a major upset over a two-term incumbent Republican senator in November. You're watching Meet the Press Now.
Welcome back. Recently I had a chance to speak with Dan Osborne. He's an independent candidate running for Senate in Nebraska, challenging the sitting Republican senator, Doug Fisher, in the deep red state. This year, Democrats are not running a candidate for Senate in Nebraska.
Dan Osborne, a union leader who helped lead a strike against Kellogg's in 2021, is hoping to consolidate anti-Republican voters. I began our conversation by talking about why he thinks he's a shot at beating Senator Fisher. Well, I think people are frustrated with party politics right now. You know, the Senate's a millionaire's club.
It's a country club. There's nobody like me in the United States Senate, somebody who works with their hands for a living, and I think that's the way our founding fathers set it up. And you led a strike against Kellogg. You got a lot of attention for that.
How did that inspire you to make this run? Well, yeah, it inspired me because I got to help working people. I got to help save 1,500 jobs nationwide, and that's what I want to do for the working people in Nebraska. I want to continue helping workers.
And you were, of course, also running as an independent. You said you want to help workers. Tell me a little bit about that decision to run as an independent. Sure.
You know, it's similar to what I just said as far as, you know, the country club politicians. I feel like both sides are catering to their extremes right now, and talking with Nebraskans, people are frustrated by that. It's striking that you say that you think both sides, both parties are catering to these extremes. The Nebraska Democratic Party doesn't have a candidate.
It's widely expected that they might endorse you. Would you welcome an endorsement from the Democratic Party? I want endorsement from everybody. I've spoken with Libertarians at their convention.
I have seven GOP county monthly meetings that I'm going to be attending. I got Republicans on my campaign. I got Democrats, Libertarians, and Independents all working together to form a coalition like Nebraska's never seen before. But you say that the parties, that they're both catering to the extremes, so why would you want Democrats endorsing you if they are possibly part of the problem?
Well, I would want everybody endorsing me. I mean, that would be ideal, because like I said, I'm trying to bring people together. Kind of like the same thing I did on strike. I was able to turn that into a nonpartisan issue and get Republicans out to the picket line, because the way I see the world, I just see working people that are just trying to have some semblance of peace and get through life.
Also, of course, what's important is your union affiliation. How important is that to you personally as you think about your campaign? It's really important to me. The Nebraska State Fed's just endorsed my candidacy.
It's important because what being in a union is meant to me. I can't speak to what they do on national levels, but what it's meant for me is earning a livable wage, good health care, and good Christmases for my kids, and to be a homeowner. That's about it. It kind of sounds like the American dream a little bit, right?
It's very interesting, because I've also been talking to union workers who echo some of the same language that you say about sort of just having access to the American dream. I've also heard from some voters that they want a candidate that's pro-worker. They're not as interested in someone who's pro-union. What do you make of that distinction that voters are making?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I don't think every workforce has to be unionized at all, but I think all workers should have a fair shake at life. Unions do help that, but also unions help non-union labor as well by raising wages. And how would you describe yourself?
Are you pro-union, pro-worker, both? How would you put it? And what's the distinction there in your mind? I don't think there is a distinction.
You know, unions just contracted labor. But no, you know, guys that are out there working 50, 60, 70 hours a week like I've always done, those are the people I want to represent. I want to give them a voice. Another really interesting thing as we talk to union workers that's come up is that there's really this distinction, I found, between rank-and-file union workers and union leaders.
A number of voters have told us they don't want to be told who to vote for by their union leader. They see sometimes that their union leader is more interested in Democrats than Republicans, which might class with some of the rank-and-file members. What do you make of that distinction and really that rift that we see sometimes between rank-and-file members and union leadership? Well, 20 years ago when I first joined the union at Kellogg's, I had one of the old guys come up to me.
He kind of looked like Tom Selleck. And he said, he's like, kid, he goes, I don't give a crap what your politics are. At the end of the day, you need to vote your paycheck. And that's what I tell people.
You know, if they're focused on wedge issues or whatever it is, I tell them at the end of the day, you need to vote your paycheck. And I guess lastly, there are going to be some voters who maybe won't be familiar with you. What would you want voters to know about you as they think about, of course, Deb Fischer, who has been an establishment, at least in your state, and won by a large margin? Why should they be kicking you over?
Well, you know, I serve my country in the Navy and the Nebraska Army National Guard. But what you're going to get from me versus a Deb Fischer is you're going to get somebody who's going to vote their conscience and try to do what's right for people and not vote on who's giving me the most amount of money. Well, thank you so much, Jan Osmar, for coming on. Thank you.
Still to come, a new U.S. intelligence assessment on the death of top Putin critic Alexei Navalny. You're watching Meet the Press now. Welcome back.
U.S. efforts to provide additional aid to Ukraine has become more urgent. Ukraine's top military commander conceded that his troops have been forced to retreat in the east. The rare acknowledgement comes as Kiev awaits aid from the U.S., which President Biden signed off on last week.
Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that Vladimir Putin did not directly order the killing of criminal opposition leader Alexei Navalny. NBC News Global Security Report, Dan DeLuce, joins me now. So, Dan, how did the U.S.
intelligence agencies come to this conclusion that Putin didn't directly order the killing of Navalny? Well, I think they're not going to divulge everything, but it was based on their own intelligence. It was also based on the context of the politics that Putin is facing re-election soon, and it probably wasn't in his interest to have that happen at that moment. They also have some open-source reporting.
But it's important to point out they're not absolving him of responsibility. The administration still believes Putin is ultimately responsible, because, after all, he sent him effectively imposed a death sentence by sending Navalny to this brutal prison in the Arctic. So, in a sense, it deepens the mystery. It raises more questions.
We still don't know what were the precise circumstances of Navalny's death. How did he die? We really still don't know. Yeah, so that directly involved a little consequence of something that Putin did, as President Biden said.
Now, the Ukrainian forces have been forced to retreat in the east as he said at the top. Is this a sign that there's a tide turning in the war here? It's certainly not good news for Ukraine. It certainly underscores the pressure they're under.
But U.S. officials and analysts are saying this is not some kind of catastrophic turning point yet. But it really underscores how much they need that ammunition and those weapons they were asking and waiting for for months that finally were approved the other day in Congress. So, I think they're facing an uphill struggle right now.
Russia's able to mobilize a lot more manpower than Ukraine does. So, the question is, can they kind of beat back the Russians and hold the line? And do we know when that aid might actually make it to the front lines? I think any day now some of it will come.
Not soon enough. You hear those appeals from President Zelensky and his aides. But, you know, some of this will take time to kind of make a difference to gain traction, right? Because they're in a kind of hole right now and they've got to climb out of it.
Yeah, that's the situation we'll keep falling. Thank you so much, Dan. And we're back tomorrow with more Meet the Press. Now the news continues with Aaron Gilchrist in for Holly Jackson right now.
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