Meet the Press NOW – August 23

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Visit Manulife CA Health. Yeah. Welcome to ETH Press. Now, Chuck Todd reporting for Washington.

We begin this hour with the Republican presidential front run and former reality TV star Donald Trump preparing to surrender authorities in Georgia in prime time. And he's playing executive producer by doing it and timing the way he's doing it, he's doing a less than 24 hours after skipping the first Republican presidential debate moments ago, former president left his residence in New Jersey. There are pictures of his motorcade leaving Bedminster. Don't worry, we're not lingering on this.

There's not really that necessary. Mr. Trump now heads to Georgia. He'll be booked at the Pulpol county jail in his fourth indictment, four months.

This time he'll face 13 new criminal counts tied to alleged racketeering. It's a scheme that Bonnie Willis says was used to try to overturn Georgia's presidential election results. When he officially surrenders, he's expected the fingerprint and he'll have his mugshot taken, much like his other co defendants have experienced this week when they turned themselves in. One of those mug shots, of course, is Trump form White House chief of Stafford Meadows.

The who after trying to get a delay ended up because of court order surrendering this afternoon and the district attorney finally, wellness is now seeking an October 23rd trial. Yes, this October, next October, October 23rd. Trolley for 19 defendants be a full five months earlier than our initial request, which legal experts agreed was itself a highly ambitious time frame given the sheer number of defendants and the complexities of this case. So either way, the timing of Trump's remember today is not a coincidence.

Former president made his legal woes and the 91 criminal counts facing him a centerpiece of this primary campaign strategy. And so far, at least judging by the poll, it appears to be working. I debate further reinforced how entrenched Donald Trump is as the leader of the Republican party and that there's really no sign of that changing anytime soon. Six of the eight candidates on state last night, including his top primary rival, pledge to vote for him even if he's a convicted felon.

Watch. You all signed a pledge to support the eventual Republican nominee. If former President Trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? Please raise your hand if you would.

Just hold on. That visual moment, folks, just stick with me here a second. That visual moment, I think it does more to explain where the party is. You saw it, it was reluctant.

Only one was enthusiastic, the guy in center stage. And then you saw the, and then you saw Ron DeSantis look left and right. Then he raises just the way it played itself out. Said a lot.

Trump has did emerge from last night's debate relatively unscathed. The field spent very little time talking about the elephant not in the room and a lot of time talking about the candidate on stage. They apparently viewed as their biggest threat a single digit candidate right now, Trump acolyte Vivek Ramaswamy. In fact, the only real pushback against the former president came on the issue of Mike Pence's refusal to obey Trump's demands that he essentially violated the Constitution on January 6.

And even then, the top candidates seem to downplay what happened. Senator Scott, do you believe he did the right thing? Absolutely. He did the right thing, number one.

Number two, we should be, we should be asking ourselves a bigger question about the weaponization of the Department of Justice. Do you believe that Mike Pence did the right thing on January 6th? So here's what we need to do. We need to end the weaponization of these federal agents.

I think the American people deserve to know whether everyone on this stage agrees that I carry my oath to the Constitution that day there's no more important duty. I've answered this before, so yeah, why are we. Mike. Mike did his duty.

I got no beef with him. But here's the thing. Is this what we're going to be focusing on? Mike Pence stood for the Constitution.

I do think that Vice President Pence did the right thing and I do think that we need to give him credit for that. Answer the question. Mike Pence did the right thing on January 6th. Over the course of those two hours, Trump was mentioned 23 times.

Yes, we have it looks every checker this sucker, the diets to surrenders, the reactions the debate has somehow fortified the former President's place atop the polls so far during me now we have Gabe Guardiers he's outside the Polk County Jail with what we can expect in the coming hours as Trump arrives here. Hayes in Milwaukee, he has the latest from the campaign itself. So Gabe, paint the picture down there. This is now becoming old hat for us in the in the journalism business and for folks even in Atlanta since they've done so many of these in the last 10 days.

What do you see there? Is it more media than outsiders? Are there protesters? Set the scene.

Hi there, Chuck. Well, I'll set the scene here and we'll get some breaking news that we're actually just starting to look at a new court filing right now. Several dozen Trump supports have been here about today. We've seen a ramp up security presence here.

Former President Trump as you may mention over the last few hours has posted on social media said that he does expect a standard hearing that end at 7:30pm Eastern Time tonight. And we have seen even actually check the last minute or so more sheriff deputy vehicles, more police vehicles that should not be here. The main entrance of the Fulton County Jail, there's a separate entrance from my colleagues rat where we expect former presidents to come in and be fingerprinted, likely get a mug shot taken. And we'll be getting those months shots relatively quickly after each of the defendants have surrendered.

You mentioned two of the most recent ones we just got this afternoon, former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows, who negotiated a $100,000 bond and also another Trump ally, Harrison Floyd, who was also here, surrendered. But what's different about him, Chuck, is that according to the Florida county sheriff, he did not negotiate a box. As we understand it, he is still in custody. The only defendant so far that is still in custody.

Now we get to the scheduling issue because I'm just looking at some court documents now that ring live on the air. But this afternoon you mentioned in your introduction finding Willis. I was pushing for a start date of October 23rd much sooner than she had initially caused for called for. That's less than two months from now.

Incredible. And you think about it as many White said just with such a swooping case with the racketeering charges involved, no way they could get it done. Time out. According to a court found just now judge's order.

There doesn't need a timetable set for that as hard. And I'm reading this for the first time. This is the case of Kenneth Chesbrough, a former Trump Trump attorney who's asking for a speedy trial. Surprised many.

And here's the schedule as I'm looking at this court document for the first time, the arraignment would occur on September 6, 2023. So just in a few weeks. Discovery will be due by September 20, 2023. Motions by September 27.

Pre trial conference, September 29. And then a trial would potentially begin on October 23, 2023. Now, a lot of questions about ch legal exper, you know, like, weigh in on that, on how. Whether that's even feasible.

One thing I would also say is that this afternoon the TR legal team said, look, we don't agree with this. We want to sever our case from anybody that's asking for speed Child just want to force. The Trump team has said repeatedly that they, you know, want this to drag out eventually after the 2024 election. But then again, that developing news is that, you know, according to the court, it's possible that at least the judge may be on track to try and get this to an August 23rd start date.

Unclear whether that was Kenneth Cheesborough. He's the one because he's one of the undid co conspirators in the federal case as well. He's the one asking for a speedy trial here. Okay, that is right.

And then that he asked for that motion earlier surprised a lot of observers, but he's the one asking for it. And now, you know, there appears to, you know, the DA called his bluff essentially and said October 23rd much earlier than anticipated. And this all comes as again, surrender. Well, this should keep his Georgia legal team busy as they file all sorts of motions likely.

We have a former assistant district attorney from Fulton county that will be perhaps guiding us through what we're watching here in real time. I appreciate you bringing that to us. Right at the top there, we move over to the political side of things in Trump land. And that's what Garrett.

Hey, Garrett it is. Look, he was an executive producer for his reality show. He's executive producing this. He could have turned himself in at three in the morning.

He could have done it Wednesday. He could have done it Monday, could have done it last weekend. He chose today. He chose.

In fact, he's put out his social media. It's like 7:30. It's like he's. It's almost like it's an event to watch.

Yes. Oh, that's entirely right. Jackie drops it right in the heart of a primetime television news schedule here. It's a way to completely step on any bounds any of his rivals might have gotten out of this debate.

I mean, you have a debate here hosted by Fox News. If you're one of These other candidates who thinks you had a pretty good day today, the quickest way to kind of slingshot yourself ahead would be to show up on those programs, which are now almost certainly going to be dominated by yet another Trump surrender in yet another state. This has been a fundraising boon for him in the past. Although, you know, much like anything else, the sequel's never as popular as the original.

And there have been diminishing returns here, although this is the first one to be done in prime time. So perhaps they're shifting the strategy a little bit here, but it's just been the kind of consistent strategy we have seen from the Trump team to do whatever they can to block out the sun and make his rivals really have to earn it, to get any kind of earned media or any kind of serious coverage when he can be so dominant in that field as well. Look, they had one goal last night, although the Trump team, Jason Miller, did it with me. I saw Chris Lacveda, who's also senior to a, to the campaign, do it.

Whatever the result of last night was, they wanted to declare the end of the DeSantis campaign. And there's a part of me that wonders, are you showing some fear here by trying so hard to declare the end of it? Yeah, look, they've been writing this political obituary for months for Ron DeSantis, who has certainly had a rough couple of months, but refuses to just roll over and die. And I think, you know, the Trump campaign was very quick to declare this the end of his campaign last night.

But I've talked to some Trump allies who don't agree with that assessment when they're being candid about it, saying that he had a perfectly fine night. Not enough to sort of change the overall dynamics in this race. But desantis isn't going away. And I think it is a tell here for the Trump campaign that they see DeSantis as the only person with the political legs and, frankly, the money to go the distance against him in a race.

Now, obviously, DeSantis is still a long way back, but killing him off is going to remain job one for the Trump political organization here. They can sort of squash him and then be ready for the next thing. But I don't think last time ended in, frankly, you know, Chuck from Motors I've spoken to here in the Milwaukee area in kind of the suburbs out here, they think the same as did Fine last night. I don't think anything changed the dynamic.

Overwhelmingly. We're going to muddle on in this space for a while. Well, and what do they think is a good financial. You know, each one of these arraignments has actually had diminishing returns from them.

Are they hoping to goose it a little bit? And is that why we've got a little more of an orchestration around this one? Well, look, we had significant orchestration around each of these, Chuck. I mean, really, from the jump in New York, but you're right, around New York, it was only like $13 million over the course of the week between indictment and arraignment.

Obviously, in Georgia displays out a little bit differently. Donald Trump might not be back in town for the arraignment. It's the kind of thing he could reasonably do remotely. Yeah, one bite at the apple here.

And knowing that they haven't seen those fundraising numbers go down. Yeah, you have. Trying this in prime time is, you know, a little bit of something different here. But whether that was kind of laid out, sketched out exactly as a fundraising strategy or not, I couldn't tell you for sure.

Derek still in walking force. Garrett, thank you. So, for more on what is going on right now with the district attorney, Jordan, He's a criminal defense attorney now. He's a former assistant district attorney from Fulton County.

All right, Darryl, I'm trying to get everything straight here and that with our. With what exactly? Finally, will is proposed. So we've got Kenneth Cheesborough asking for a speedy trial.

She is asking for a trial that appears for him for the 20, the judges said for him could be 23rd October. Everybody else potentially the 24th. How's this going to play out? Right.

Obviously, this is Cheeseburg that asked for the speedier trial. Bonnie Willis is like, great, okay, here we go. What should we be looking for next? I think you need to look at a lot of roadside bombs.

I don't see this happening in October. I don't see it happening in September. The fact that they filed for a speedy trial surprises me. But every lawyer has his or her different view of how things need to go.

But there's no way, in my view, that the majority of these defendants are going to have a trial before, way before next year, next year, or the year after. It's just too big. It's too voluminous. There are too many different types of motions that can be filed.

And every lawyer has his or her client, and some clients have two or more lawyers, and none, none of them are going to agree on everything. It's just not gonna happen. Okay, but if he wants a speedy trial, could she have to separately try him first? Well, everything else.

Walk me through that. It's possible the judge could sever him or take his case away from the other cases and try just the cases that he's charged with in various indictment. The numbers. I don't see it happening, but I'm not the judge, and I cannot get into the judge's head or into the lawyers that represent him or to the antifanis.

Into. The prosecutor says if she tries him first, that will certainly give all of the other defendants an opportunity to see what the cards are on the table. They'll be turned over as opposed to hidden. So she doesn't want to sever this either, Correct.

That would be my guess. My guess is Vonnie would like to try all of these cases together at the same time. So no one has various. No one has the opportunity of getting a break and seeing what's going on.

All right, but you have a right to a speedy trial. Absolutely. Cheeseborough has this right to ask for it. He's asking for it.

Could be. We've already heard Trump may ask to sever from Cheesborough. Now, how would that work? If Trump tries to sever from Cheesborough, more likely than not, he would try to sever from all of the other defendants, and that is going to be a nightmare.

If one or more of these cases against Trump or the major players in this case have their cases severed, it could go on. These trials could go on ad infinitum from here till the end of time and maybe beyond. So you don't expect this judge, you don't expect the severing to succeed, do you? Not with Trump.

I do not. I don't know. I don't know enough about what he is trying to do or why he's trying to do it. Unless he's trying to say, separate me from all these people.

I'm innocent. They're guilty. That's the only thing I can say. What you're saying is not necessarily okay, not necessarily flip, but he could say, show me the facts.

Let's go to trial. Bring it on. District attorney's office. Because I'm innocent.

They may not be. The facts against them are far worse than they are against me. That may be what he's trying to say. So he's not brought down by all the charges.

Because if there is testimony, witnesses, 1, 2, 10, whatever number of witnesses there may be, if he or she testifies about one person that's in that courtroom and the testimony is really difficult to absorb, really tough against that defendant, then all of the defendants feel like they're going to go down and they'll be sinking with an anchor attached to their heads, not just their feet, but to their heads. So, all right, who decides whether this gets out or not? Is this all in the power of the current judge or will this get appealed? If this judge says no or yes, whatever decision the judge makes, is there a place to appeal that decision?

Absolutely. There's the Georgia Court of Appeals. And then if the ruling goes against whoever it goes against, they can then go to Supreme Court, who has the right, the Georgia Supreme Court, who has a right to say yes or no, concur or no. And that in itself will take time.

It's very unusual for that to be something that takes place very quickly. So let me just wrap up here. What Cheesborough has done by asking for the severing, is it created more of a problem for Final Willis or more of a problem for Donald Trump? I think more of a problem for Donald Trump because Trump doesn't want this to happen quickly.

Trump wants this to go on and have his lawyers, all the other lawyers, put this case off for whatever reason by filing motions and appealing the motions if they are overruled. But on the other hand, Cheeseborough wants to get it done, get it over with, get it done quickly, apparently, because I think he's saying that I'm just not, I'm not these people, I have to be with them, but I need to get away from them. I'm not part of this. Leave me alone.

Darrell Collin, a former assistant district attorney for Fulton county. So really knows how this process works in and out. Currently a criminal defense attorney. Appreciate you coming on being our expert today.

Thank you. Take care. Be well. Coming up, the fight per second, how he picked Ramaswamy stole the spotlight from Ron DeSantis and the others at last night's private debate stage.

Not pulling candidate there managed to go unscathed. But is that a good thing that he actually wished he had been attacked alive in Milwaukee? Next. Plus, the view from a publican earlier showing the bet at all.

And our own Shaquille Brewster, who was right there on their living room couch with them. You're WATCHING THE PRESS now. Welcome back. One of the big things we were watching for in last night's debate was Howard Ron Desantis who's been consistently polling in second place handling incoming attacks.

But it turned out desantis wasn't the main target after all. Instead of the political newcomer and drawback alike, this is Van Vick Ram Swan, who took the brunt of the punches. 11 separate attacks according to NBC News analysis. His rivals went after him on his record, or lack of one, and his views on foreign policy.

Take a look. I've had enough already tonight. Of a guy who sounds like Chatgpt. Stand up here.

And the last person in one of these debates, right, who stood in the middle of the stage and said what's a skinny guy with an odd last name doing up here? Was Barack Obama. And I'm afraid we're dealing with the same type amateur. Joe Biden has weakened this country at home and abroad.

Now is not the time for on the job training. We don't need to bring in a rookie. We don't need to bring in people without defund Israel you want, You'll be surprised to know he's been pulling in single digits. Right.

Anyway, there were some substantive changes on some of the issues that will be key to the 2024 presidential race, including abortion. Here's former South Carolina Governor Nikkei and the former vice president Mike Pence on the issue of federal abortion ban. I've been a champion for life in the Congress, a champion for life as governor and as vice president. And to be honest with you, Nikki, you're my friend, but consensus is the opposite of leadership.

When the Supreme Court returned this question to the American people, they didn't just send it to the states only. It's not a states only issue. It's a moral issue. So first of all, I will say it is in the hands of the people and that's where it should be.

But when you're talking about a federal ban, be honest with the American people. We haven't had 45 pro life senators in over 100 years. So no Republican president can ban abortions any more than a Democrat president could ban. All those state laws don't make women feel like they have to decide on this issue when you know, we don't have 60 Senate votes in the House.

And Dasha Burns joins me now from Milwaukee. And Dasha, it is interesting. We've spent a lot of time talking about Trump. We haven't talked as much about the debate for obvious reasons given today's another arraignment day here.

But here we are, day two. You know, Ron Desantis, Viva Ramaswamy, Nikki Haley. They all are acting as if they, they think they accomplished something last night. What are they telling you?

Well, look, I had a chance to talk to the grandma swami right after the debate last night and he told me that he wears those attacks as a badge of honor. He felt like he won the debate. Of course, that's what every candidate is saying today. Right.

But he felt like he got the heat from the, quote, establishment politicians because he's bringing in a new and a different kind of energy into this race. And that is why a lot of voters, frankly, are interested in him, are curious about him, and I think why a lot of those other folks on the stage kind of wanted to vote him off the island last night. They're looking at this guy saying, look, you don't have the experience that the rest of us do. Let's move on here.

But he got the brunt of those arrows, which we were frankly expecting. We're going to go support a Governor Ron DeSantis, who came out of this relatively unscathed. He got to sort of stick to his talking points, a lot of stuff that we put on the campaign trail. But that's not necessarily a bad thing that he was able to repeat some of those things because a lot of voters are really just tuning in for the first time.

So I think DeSantis accomplished what he needed to do, and I think that they accomplished what he needed to do as well. It was interesting that those were the two people that were sharing the center stage. Right. Because they have very different stories in this race.

They coming in a newcomer, nobody knew his name, let alone how to pronounce it. Florida Governor Rod DeSantis with the biggest name ID. And I do think those two had the moments that they needed to have. Now.

It's where they go from here. Right. But when it comes to the Trump factor, we talked about this a little bit last night. Look, this might have been a little bit of this opportunity for him because I do think all of these candidates got to have a whole lot more time because he was not on that stage.

And voters got to watch and see what a post Trump political universe could look like. In the kinds of conversations like the one you just played about abortion, that can play out that I don't know that necessarily what happened had Trump in there. That's true. But we're about to have an event that's gonna step on all of that in about three hours.

Joshua Burns in Milwaukee Force Dasha, thank you. My colleague Shaquille Brewster watched the debate with some self described conservative voters in Waukesha, Wisconsin, one of the wow. Counties that we like to refer to them in Wisconsin. He joins me now.

Break down how voters view these candidates. So, all right, Shaq, we did this last night, but there's a lot of people that haven't Seen it. So what were some of the main takeaways from the debate that you saw last night with this group of conservative voters? Well, Chuck, I'll just admit how unique and different this whole experience was.

Instead of going to a watch party, this was in the living room of Republican voters, conservative voters here in this Republican stronghold of Waukesha. And it was interesting to see what moments stuck out to them. I think my big takeaways are, number one, we talked about how much these debates are real opportunity for some of those lower tier or less popular candidates. And that was the case.

You heard many names, many times they saw people saw candidates who they wouldn't otherwise see and they liked them. They wanted to hear more from those, from those candidates. Number two, you hear a lot of people talk about Vivek Ramaswamy. There was a split on how much they liked him or whether they thought he did a little bit too much on that debate stage.

And three, you really saw a split and you understood the split over future Ukraine funding. I want you to listen to my conversation with this family right after the debate and you'll hear all of those themes kind of play in together. Listen here. Quite honestly, I'm going to say this and I would take any one of them over our current, you know, crime family president that we have.

I really like the initial Nikki Haley when she had that Margaret Thatcher quote. But then I really just fell off the cliff with her when she came to foreign policy because again, for me, I want to be safe and I disagree with her foreign policy on Ukraine and Russia. I like Scott. I like, he impressed me to the point where I would like to see him in a, just want to see in a narrow field that young man, Vivek.

Yes, he's very, he speaks very well and he's, he tells the people what they really want to say. I just think he's really good. My pants just needs to go away. I'm tired of seeing Trump Pence signs that drive down the road.

I just want to see Trump and anybody else besides my pants. These are all voters who voted for former President Trump twice. They all say that they will not hesitate or they wouldn't hesitate to support him again in a general election. But they are now interested in hearing more from those candidates who they saw last night.

You know what struck me about your conversation last night and hearing it again, there's is they're Trump voters that could be talked into somebody else, but they better be a lot like Trump, right? I mean, is that basically what we saw here? Because it feels like they're just looking for somebody. If you're not, you know, if you're not enough like Trump, then I'll stick with Trump.

No, you're onto something there, Chuck. It's not necessarily the Trump style that they need or that they're looking for, but it's the perception of strength that they want. Whether or not you're talking about immigration, the strength at the border or foreign affairs strength with our allies and against Russia, they want to see that perception of strength that they feel from the former president. I want you to listen to one of the conversations with someone who I walked in and he said I'm 100% Trump.

Listen to what he said right after on when I asked him if anything changed after watching this debate. You said that you also are coming and supporting Trump. 100 regardless. Has that changed at all?

It has not changed. Why not? His experience. Four years former president.

I just think that we need him back as a country. You really get the sense, Chuck, that there's a lot of lingering respect for the former president. They know the numbers. They know there's difficulties every general election.

But they're not ready yet to pull away from the former president. To think that experienced outsider is not an oxymoron and that you could pull that off. But that's sort of what he seems to be saying there. Check what a terrific group you and Kai put together.

Kudos to both of you. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. Thank you.

The next former vice president Mike Pence sounds off on January 6th. Abortion, the state of conservatism as Republicans debate the future of their party in the front runners also grand jury witness next. You're watching. Welcome back.

According to RNBC news, talent spoke more last night on the debate stage than the former vice president Mike Pence. He was also the main voice for traditional Reagan era conservatism like countering Russia on the world stage and a faith driven approach to abortion when arguably his biggest moment last night came while defending his actions in January 6th and criticizing the motives of his former running man. Take a listen. The president asked me in his request that I reject or return votes unilaterally power that no vice president in American history had ever exercised or taken.

He asked me to put him over the Constitution and I chose the Constitution and I always will. I have no right to overturn the election and Kamala Harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat them in 2024. Well, joining me now is Mark Short. He of course served as the Chief of Staff to Vice President Mike Pence has been a senior aide to him for quite some time.

Mark, good to see you. Thanks for having me. So I gotta ask, you heard the booze, you heard others on stage not robustly support what the vice president did. I believe one of the candidates has no beef with Mike.

Was the line, that was sort of an interesting way to talk about January 6th. What's your sense of where the party itself is? Forget what we think in the news media or the punditry class, what those folks on stage think. Do you think the rank and file Republican voter is ready to accept the vice president's explanation and embrace him potentially?

Well, I think he's always gonna be proud of the fact that he upheld his oath, the American people, in the Constitution of the United States, and he's never gonna wait from that shock. And I actually was pleased that the vast majority of the people on the stage also share the viewpoint that he did his duty on that day. I think there's no doubt that many of the Republican voters have been led to believe he had some magical authority to do something else. I think, as you heard him say, what we found most often is Republicans say, so you think that Kamala Harris should have that authority in 2024 to just unleash Texas or Alabama, that it causes people to say, yeah, well, you know, probably the vice president really doesn't have that authority, and nor have they in 250 years.

And so I do think that the tide is turning a little bit on that. And I think it's still, obviously, there's plenty of people who wish that Donald Trump, Mike Pence had won reelection and want to hold that hope that something el. But I do feel like it's changing. I really do.

I'll tell you, though, one of the interesting things that I feel like is coming out in this turn towards populism on the right is I think, about two of the issues that the vice president has real conviction on, right? National security, when it comes to what America's role should be. And on the issue of entitlement reform, for instance. And as you know, the populist movement basically says we're not for any sacrifice, right?

Everybody's afraid of any sacrifice, whether it's a sacrifice that we have to do as a country or defense, to help a neighbor, to help somebody who shares our values in Eastern Europe, or when it comes to, hey, if we want this program to survive, we may have to raise taxes here or change the benefit procedure there. And it's a non Starter. And your guy is the conviction candidate. I say this with as an observation, not trying to be negative or positive.

And I feel like convictions aren't mattering to a certain part of the Republican base right now. Do you agree that? I think we'll see, Jack. I don't know.

I sort of like last night is kind of the starting point of this race. I think everything else is kind of a preseason. But, you know, I accept your point. I do think that there's certainly a populist push right now inside our party, but there's populism and there's just simply fraud.

And I think that some of the people that, you know on that stage last night actually have been presenting a fraud because they're not really pushing a populist view. They're basically taking dynamically opposed views they had just a couple years ago with some. I mean, name names. I don't mean, like for Vic.

Just a couple cycles ago, Vic maxed out Alan Grayson's wife in the Democrat primary in Florida. This isn't like a moderate Democrat. It's one of the most radical Democrats. Now.

Somehow he's become, you know, a darling, present himself as a darling of the right. And I think that if you actually look into his record, this doesn't disavow the fact that he advocates a 60% death tax check. I mean, that's more liberal than Bernie Sanders. Or what does it say about our current information ecosystem that he kind of hacked his way to the front runner of that stage last night?

I'm not saying his front runner nomination, but he kind of hacked his way to relevancy here, essentially by figuring out how to play certain notes, as you can say. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'd say by echoing Russian bots on social media is more or less the way that he's gotten his following, which I think is unfortunate. That's why it's important to have debates like this, Jeff, to actually expose people who don't really have convictions. I think it's important for voters to see those who do.

We can have honest disagreements about whether or not there should be support for Ukraine. I think that, you know, if you listen to the Vice President's perspective, it's the whole reason I'm suggesting this is we actually don't have to send American troops there because if they invaded NATO country, we will. And so I think that's important policy conversation. It's good for us to have that conversation so people can see those who actually have convictions versus those who are echoing talking points over on social media, you think Donald Trump can win the general election or not?

You know, I don't know what would have changed since 2020, Chuck, that in the last two and a half years, somebody would say, you know, after what I've seen, now I'm in favor of Donald Trump. So I think that the hurdle would be hard. But, you know, I don't think that Joe Biden's a particularly strong candidate. So it's hard to sit here and say there's no possibility for that.

Is that why it's hard to make a case against electability, case against Trump? Because Biden's numbers are low right now? I think partially. I think that's.

That's right. I think that you've seen that the numbers that suggest that the vast majority of voters prefer neither option. And so, so, yeah, I think that it's hard to argue that there's no pathway for Donald Trump. But I, again, I think that there are others on the states that offer conservatives a better course for the future of our country.

During the. His kind of programming event, the former president, look, he was kind of getting egged on about this idea that we're gonna have more violence and there's gonna be this clash. And he didn't announce it. Right.

He just sort of does what he does sometimes, which is like, yeah, you know, people have a lot of passion. I don't know. And it's a very uncomfortable way he seems to go about it. You and the president had a front row seat.

The idea that these supporters can turn violent. What is your level of concern about violence on campaign trail this cycle? You know, I don't know that my concern is high, but I certainly think it should be denounced unequivocally. I think that it's very important that we have peaceful elections and peaceful debates and peaceful opportunities to share different viewpoints.

I think the hallmark of our democracy, and no leader should anyway be encouraging it or condoning it. What do you, what do you make of the former president's inability to basically just sit there about it? Well, I mean, I think that as tragic as January 6th was in the events leading up to it, I think perhaps the strongest indictment was that he did sit around and do nothing when there was violence at the Capitol. And so I think that's a strong indictment against, against his leadership or lack thereof.

All right, Mark Short, long time senior advisor to the former vice president of. Michael appreciative. Thank you. Thanks.

All right, join me now on set because we need to talk more about this debate. Eugene Ginswas. Sarah Shingle, President CEO of Republican Main Street Partnership. Mole Lake, Democratic strategist, executive director of the Georgetown University Institute, Politics and Public Service, and Matthew Gottany, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and Commercial Commentary magazine.

You guys have, like, title like that. Matthew, you are sort of almost like a conservative historian. Best version of the normality. Where does it be that Ramaswamy fits in?

Sort of where conservatism was and is and is going. I think one takeaway I had from the debate last night, Chuck, was that this is a different Republican Party than before Donald Trump's arrival. History really did begin in 2016. It's a lot of demarcation, isn't it, for much of today's Republican Party?

Yeah. And you saw remnants of the pre Trump Party on stage. But Vivek Ramaswamy can only really exist in the post Trump Party or in the Trump Party. And so that's what he represents.

He represents kind of the next iteration of mago. So, Sarah, that was essentially what might have been the 2028 Democratic Republican primary debate, except Trump's still here. And I want to get it. Vivek's not going to be the nominee.

Right? I mean, it isn't. And yet everybody on that stage seems to be obsessed with him. They were totally obsessed with him last night.

He's doing very well on the polling. He's moved up a second. And I think his play is, does Trump really end up being the nominee? And I think that's really what he wants to be back at play.

He wants to be the backup plan. And he kind of knows it. Right. And he kind of knows that, and he's comfortable with it.

And you know what? In four years, he has a huge name ID and he runs when he's 42. Yeah. It's interesting.

You watched that debate last night. You saw a couple candidates out there who were running for the Republican nomination. Vivek looked like he was auditioning for the role of Donald Trump's understudy in a play. Right.

If Trump calls him sick one night, I'm ready to step up. Right. And that's. That's what you saw all night long.

A lot of them wanted to take mine on the date stage. Eugene, are we supposed to see paid media? What are you hearing? I mean, look, he strikes me as a guy that couldn't withstand two weeks to make it out.

I'm sorry. How about it? Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think the answer is yes.

Because, you see, on the basics, he's a precursor to what's going to happen later. And they're kind of sick of him. Right. Like, what you saw yesterday was like they're personally disturbed by his presence, not just because they think he's doing well in the polls.

And people are paying attention to him because, like you saw with Pins with Haley, they don't like the fact that he doesn't know enough in their minds that when they talk about foreign policy, he doesn't seem to have an understanding of how it all works. I think that is what you're going to see as they move forward. And he keeps going to take it as like, everybody hates me because people like me. I don't know that's the right answer.

They're understanding something that matters. I think he had a better night than the conventional wisdom allows. Did he steal the show? Did he emerge as really the only alternative to Trump in this debate?

He didn't. But he was not the victim of the pylon as many people expected. And so what that allowed him to do is basically deliver his canned answers in a way that appeals to Republican voters and so on. Covid, on education on the border in particular, I think Republicans found a lot to like.

You know, it struck me, you know, Joe Biden didn't have a great first debate, and a lot of people were writing him off. And more he's sitting here. He was kind of sad he didn't get involved in some of the main arguments until he was forced to. You know, I mean, it's the safest sort of take a page for that.

Like, hey, I don't want to take Arrow right now. I mean, history is full of people who flopping their first debates and then went on to win at the end of the day. And all that really matters, honestly, no matter how much we all sit around talk about this and people are talking about all over the country, all that really matters is how to talk about it in living rooms across Iowa. Right.

Because Iowa is all that matters. If Donald Trump wins the Iowa caucus, it's done. It's done. If he barely wins the Iowa caucus and someone's right on his heels.

Now we're talking about people living for. Right. But he's just different race. So, you know, DeSantis still has time.

The problem is DeSantis came in with such high expectations, but into the campaign, and he's been steadily on the decline. He's got to rebound at some point or else people are going to start seriously looking for an alternative to him. Let's talk about the Palmetto State duo. And that Nikki Haley, I thought took a risk, Sarah, because she basically talked to Independence last night and I'm sure you were like, God bless her.

I was, I was cheering her. It's not always. That is very true. She ran a general.

She was absolutely the general candidate last night, so the primary candidate. She did a great job though. I like a lot of her comments. I think she's right on the abortion issue.

And you know, the Margaret Thatcher quote, I laughed out loud. All my girlfriends were texting me like that was a great quote. She shined and I wasn't sure she was going to. Eugene, are there.

If this matters, it means donors might come in and help her out. She's got a financial. Are there some donors that are souring the same things that might come over? I don't think yet.

I think yesterday people looked at her and people were surprised how well she did. But it's hard to see if she did well enough to start snatching people's money away from them. Right. I don't know that she did that.

Partly because her answer on abortion, while it was a general election answer, it also was one that is not with the base of the Republican Party. That's not where a lot of the conservatives are. That's not where a lot of the strong part of the party is when it comes to abortion. And Tim Scott, her counterpart, he was barely there.

Like he was one of those folks. He barely saw it. What do we make of Tim Scott? I mean, he's got so much.

You look, it's like it's the stock I would want to buy. You have a huge treasure trove. He's got a great biography and that's it. The big question for Scott, the big question about Scott going into the past couple months has been does he have something more?

Does he have something not only substantive about what, what he would do as president, but does he have that fighting spirit that Republican voters crave in their candidates days? Neither of those things are visible on the debate stage last night. Yeah, that is so Team Biden looks at this and thinks what? Look, I think the Biden campaign has probably still got their sites where they sell on Donald Trump.

Right? Look, they had an interesting marketing strategy. They knew that people were coming to watch them, that had left them, so they wanted to. But I also think back to the 2020 Democratic primary debates and there were a couple of candidates who were hit after the fact.

People were questioning why weren't you going after Trump A little bit more than that. Anybody who was watching the Democratic primary debates in 2020, already knew how they felt about Donald Trump. They were looking for the person. They think there's some of that too.

Right. Sure. Take the obligatory shot at Biden here and there if you're a Republican. But what you got to do is show that you can stand up, that be the run up on the stage.

You can, you know, look, voters don't vote for president up here. They vote for president here. Right. People have to have an emotional connection to a candidate.

That's what they need to be doing is developing that emotional connection rather than litigating a case against the Democratic candidate. And the silence feeling really good, honestly. Like, I got text messages all night and this morning of people saying when they're thinking about the general election, doesn't matter who the candidate is, they feel like the Republican Party is too far right on the issues, that people will take people there. I don't have to write or not every time.

I'm talking about abortion, Donald Trump. Biden can only beat Donald Trump. Like he needs Trump. Anybody else on that stage just, I think, beats president.

Let's talk about Chris Christie. Did he provide the service? He planned. He started playing it.

What did you think? There are two pieces of conventional wisdom going in. One was that everyone was going to pile on the Santus. That didn't happen.

And the second piece of conventional wisdom was that Chris Christie would be there like, you know, a Scarface at the end of the movie, just kind of spraying everybody with the tech. He did it. In fact, some of his early answers were very dense and policy driven about his record in New Jersey, which again, I thought it was a little crying later on. Crying later on.

He did the same thing. How I went into detail, which is not what people were expecting. I wonder whether Christie, because he's also running a one state strategy in New Hampshire, is thinking maybe, you know what? Maybe for those New Hampshire voters and the independents in particular, maybe even some disaffected Democrats, I need to give them a little bit more than just the attacks.

That was interesting. All right, we'll see Bergman ace in the next right. No. Okay, let's cross the board.

Regina, separate moment. Matt, thank you much. Silicon we heard from both Pentagon and President Putin today on the deadly plane crash that reportedly killed one of Putin's top foes, Wagner chief Evgeny Rogoza. George, he was a young Marine.

She didn't care about convention. They made a life together. Then one night the Marine died. And then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected and utterly bizarre turn.

I'm Josh Mankiewicz and this is Trace of Suspicion, an all new podcast from Dateline. Listen to all episodes of Trace of Suspicion. Now, wherever you get your podcasts.