Meet the Press NOW – August 23

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Oh, and discovering your new favorite microbrew before cycling along scenic bike paths and wandering through a museum and all. Adventure awaits in Ottawa. From O to ah Playing New York at Iowa ca. If it's Wednesday, it is debate night in America, the first one of the campaign season.

Eight Republican presidential candidates poised to face off in battleground Wisconsin and a chance to change the dynamic in the race against front runner Donald Trump, who's not showing up. Plus, NBC News confirms Trump's plans to surrender Atlanta tomorrow night as more the former president's 18 CO defendants are slowly but surely turning themselves in today, including his attorney Rudy Giuliani. And the breaking news we've been working on the last couple of hours. Officials are trying to confirm Russian state media claims that Yevgeny Prigozhin, the Wagner mercenary chief of orchestrated an armed uprising against President Putin, has been killed in a reported plane crash just outside Moscow.

Hello there. Welcome to MEET THE press. Now I'm Chuck Todd in Washington. And what could very well be the most consequential day of the Republican presidential primary so far, one way or another, with just a few hours until the first debate, this primary has been dominated by the former president and an unwillingness by most pop candidates to tackle him head on.

If the dynamic inside the Republican race for president is going to change, we're going to start to find that out tonight. And if it isn't going to change, we'll find that out tonight as well. So it's consequential in either outcome and either scenario. A few hours from now, the candidates, we think will take a debate stage in Milwaukee where they will have two hours to make their case to Republican primary voters and Trump voters.

And and we'll do it without Trump on stage. The race is four times indicted frontrunner is skipping tonight citing his commanding leader. The reason he doesn't need to show up. And for what it's worth, it is not the first time a front runner has skipped a first debate.

That's the strategy that you do when you're up by more than 20 points in the polls and Trump is up by more than that. But even without Trump, every flavor of this current Republican Party is going to be present on the stage. You'll have some Trump acolytes and there's also some Trump critics. You'll have some establishment Republicans and a couple of VC outsiders.

The interventionist foreign policy win and the isolationist win. But if you want to win to win tonight's contest, look at what Republican primary voters want to see and hear from this field. And what better group of Republicans best represent those voters than likely Iowa caucus goers? They're not your mainstream Republican primary voters, but they're the single most important voting group right now because they're first.

And tonight's debate, we have some brand new numbers from our NBC News and more registered media compul on what would make Republican caucus goers more likely or less likely to support a candidate. The most popular positions are on screen right now. You've heard this using the military to secure the border. Easily the top one there fighting the less quote, unquote, woke agenda, bending gender abandoning, gender affirming care, banning abortions after 15 weeks.

So you see there, this is probably what you're gonna hear a lot of, particularly the first two. You're gonna hear that from all the candidates and of course, another and then another. Also popular, taking on a less woke agenda and so forth. And here's what they don't want to hear.

Only about a third say that they would be more likely support candidate wants to continue military, a Ukraine or private Social Security. I expect the Ukraine. It should actually be a robust debate tonight. I'm not sure how much Social Security we're going to hear tonight.

We shall see. But then here's the big one. This is the question of whether you should aggressively criticize Donald Trump for his alleged criminal actions. They don't want to see it.

Just 16% say that it would somehow make them more likely to support Canada. So that's the Chris Christie constituency, for better or for worse. Now, that said, voters tell us they don't like negative ads, but that doesn't stop campaigns from using negative ads. However, we do think they won't be too hard on Trump to die.

So let's take a look at the net paper heading into tonight. Debate Republicans on stage four, the consequences of attacking the former president. Among those likely Republican Iowa caucus voters, the least popular candidates in Milwaukee are the ones who have loudly and repeatedly attack Trump for his actions surrounding the 2020 election. We had that there before.

But obviously the single most unpopular person, frankly, left and right, is conspiracy. The left doesn't trust him because he was such a Trump sickle fan before and the right doesn't like him because he attacks him so much. But it's a conundrum that all the top rivals have to do. How do you take on the front runner if the bulk of voters don't want to hear you criticize him?

Can his voters be convinced to support someone else? Well, like I said, tonight might be the field's best chance to shift the dynamic of this race. And if they can or won't, this primary may be over before it has actually begun. So joining me now from inside the spin room in Milwaukee is Ali Batali.

So, Ali, let's start with the. I think the single most important thing to know right now is it seven candidates are eight. Yeah, I think that's an open question for about another hour. Chuck.

My sources of the Bergam campaign say he went to the doctor. That's what he told me just now, too. We went from the spin room to the doctor's office. But it may not matter what the doctor says either way because listen to this part of an interview I did the Bergam where he says it might not be doctor's orders but doctor's suggestions and he could debate anyway.

Watch. Can you stand for two hours? One thing we'll find out. But I just hit the walk through.

They got strong Williams and they got a bolted to the floor. So hopefully that will, that'll provide the support I need if I stand on one leg for two hours to, you know, fulfill this mission of improving every American life. You know, I'm happy to do it. There's all kinds of people that make bigger sacrifices than that.

So you're either standing or you're not. Exactly. And look, it kind of comes back around, Chuck, to what you were talking about in terms of not criticizing Trump. What I said after that interview with Bourbon was you're willing to stand for two hours on one leg.

At one point he got emotional about everything it's taken for him to get on the stage. And I said, what does it tell you that you are willing to do all of that? And Trump is just skipping out. And he completely dodged.

She just said every candidate gets to make their own decision. It's moments like that that just remind you Trump still controls the stage, whether or not he's here or whether or not he's somewhere else. Yeah, it is the biggest head Scratcher. I've never seen a campaign where candidates refuse to go after fellow candidates in the race.

I mean, it is truly something that we haven't seen. So we know Donald Trump is going to be counter programming. Explain what you've seen of the presence of the Trump campaign on the ground, though. We're aware of the interview.

I'm curious, what have they been doing on the ground there in Milwaukee? Yeah, it just sort of feels like trolling, honestly, at a high level, using elected officials to do so. The fact that they are having dinners with reporters to try to remind them of all the flaws in the Desensitis candidates. See, the fact that they've got elected officials here, from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Byron Donald, a member of the Florida delegation from DeSantis own state.

All of that is meant to underscore the fact that Trump still reigns supreme here. And it sort of reminds me of what he did at the Iowa State Fair, flying a plane overhead that said, be likable, Ron. They just sent in the last hour or so a bingo card meant to troll DeSantis. It's the classic Trump strategy, trying to get under his skin and trying to needle at their right.

I think that's the thing that differentiates DeSantis from the rest of the stage. DeSantis allies have been clear with me today. They know that their guy has a target on his back and that he's gonna be taking incoming from everyone on the stage. But what makes him different is he's also taking incoming from a guy not on the stage.

Trump is barely attacking anyone who isn't named DeSantis. Sure, he'll swipe at Christie or Hutchinson, but not really because he knows they're not really registering in the polls. His eyes are trained on DeSantis. I think everyone else, question of can they help aid DeSantis fall so they can take second place?

Because really, that's what this debate is. It's a fascinating dynamic. On the one hand, Ron DeSantis should feel good that everybody's coming after him. And it's an opportunity.

I think we're all wondering, can he take advantage of that opportunity on the ground Force ally. Thank you. Speaking of Ron DeSantis, joining me from outside the Bay hall is Ken Cucinelli. He's the founder of the Never back down super PAC, which of course is supporting the Ron DeSantis presidential bid.

They, they usually do a lot of the work that puts a lot of the events together that Governor DeSantis shows up at. Mr. Cuchelli, always good to Hear from you. Thanks, Chuck.

Good to be with you. Let me start with the infamous debate memo. I want to get into litigating, whether it should be made public or not. But it has been made public, and I assume you haven't changed your mind at what he should try to accomplish tonight.

So one of the decisions you say in this memo is to defend Donald Trump in absentia in response to a Chris Christie attack. Why do you believe that's an important thing for your candidate to do? Yeah. So since he got in the race, Governor DeSantis has distinguished himself from Trump on issues, whether it's Covid, the wall, economy, Fauci, personnel.

It's a long list. And that's an appropriate way to make the distinction, to make the attack. The name calling that Trump inspires and undertakes, which we would anticipate that, you know, you're referencing, there would be a response, I think raises and elevates the level of the debate overall. I think if Ron DeSantis is able to do that, he demonstrates how presidential he already is.

He's the most successful conservative chief executive governor in our lifetimes. Mark Levin said things like that. He's a tough, tough, you know, standard to measure against. And I think that he measures up well.

And as Ali just said, it's really Ron DeSantis and everybody else tonight, and he gets to introduce himself for the first time to most Americans without a filter of you and me talking about this or that. It's. They get to see him for himself, and he has always risen to those occasions. What's your sense of how.

You know, I am of two minds on this as a first debate. Traditionally, first debates aren't that important. Traditionally, a front runner skips the first debate. Also not surprising.

Obviously, this is different because we have a former president running. We haven't had that in our lifetimes. Right. Something like that.

And, of course, all the attention the arraignments get. Do you view this debate as make or break, as others are writing it? Oh, no, Chuck. This is a great introduction opportunity for, you know, I've campaigned in a state, as you know, you've interviewed me before in Virginia, and there we would say Labor Day is sort of the beginning of the, of the campaign, as traditionally in the state.

This is sort of the Labor Day of the presidential race. This is the first time most people will pay attention, all of us paying attention before we've been building, talking. Over a million and a half people at doors have never backed down on, on behalf of Governor DeSantis. But this is really when people start to tune in and that's when the movement starts to matter.

There was a poll out recently that showed over 50 of people who when asked who do you support in the race, still say yes, they have an answer, but they're ready to move from that person. Over 50, only 40% who even have a candidate, whether that's DeSantis, Trump or someone else, are ready to stick with their candidates. So it's very early in this process. Governor DeSantis gets introduced himself as the singular leader against the woke left.

The only veteran running. His tax and debt record are second to none. All things that matter to making regular Americans lives better as president when he can cast that vision forward and looking forward is a big difference then the other guy not on the stage, Trump, who just loves to look backwards. You know, one of the other things in the memo was hammer Vivek Ramaswamy.

Well, you're not the only campaign apparatus that thinks he should be hammered. You know, sort of. He's suddenly being treated like an IPO stock. Well, you better hit him now before he continues to grow.

Why do you think Ramaswamy is finding a moment? Well, he's young and has energy, but he's been flip flopping on so many issues, whether it's aid to Israel or decriminalization of drugs or critically for Iowa, the death tax at 59%. And his defenses of this stuff are just falling flat. And when you have, you know, a left wing media outlet getting backed up by Megan Kelly about Vivex flip flops, you know, there's something very real to that.

And he's a fake. The fake, the fake. And it's better that people know that early and focus on the two person race. This is in the Republican nomination.

All right. If one of these standards gets a bounce out of this debate, is that a way to measure this debate as a success or not? I don't know about that. I think that the success for DeSantis is more building on the foundation that already exists for him.

He has an incredibly high name id, the highest favorables in the Republican side. But letting people know the depth of his accomplishment, that matters to Floridians lives and as president would matter to every American's lives is really the measure of success. If he gets to make those points tonight, this is going to be a win for him to build and build and build. As we turn to the voting in Iowa, New Hampshire and beyond.

Appreciate you coming on, sharing. All right. Joining me now is King Dawson. He's a former state party chair himself, South Carolina Republican Party.

He's been chair. He is back in Nikki Haley's presidential campaign and is officially on the ground there. Stop. And for her.

Mr. Dawson, good to see you. Good to see you, Josh. So let me start with tonight's debate.

It's a first debate, but it's unlike any first debate we've had. So what's your sense of how significant you think tonight is versus the hype machine? So a couple things going on on the ground here. You and I have been to a lot of debates.

I ran one in South Carolina in 2008. So this end of the first week, the first debate in the South. So they're important. I think there's a couple of lessons learned here.

I get that some proponents have not debated in the past. Donald Trump is not a disservice to the Republican Party for two reasons. First of all, he should be at this debate. Second of all to Republicans to take a look, he just gave Joe Biden a pass not to debate our nominee.

I think that's an important fact. You think this is going to make it easier for Biden to say, I'm not debating the Republican nominee if he didn't do it, I'll do that. Ok, Absolutely. Donald Trump just did it.

And there's eight qualified candidates, one of them that I'm supporting that really should have had a chance to talk about the policies and the personalities, but they missed that. There'll be another debate, but I think this one bites Republicans like myself who want to be competitive next November and having a chance to go at the common president. Let me ask you about the November electability issue. Why do you think it is not an issue for Republican primary voters?

We asked it in our own Register poll and this is a traditional thing with Republican voters. Democratic voters are willing to talk electability about their in their primaries, more so at least recently than Republican voters. And if you can't make the electability argument against Trump, there's not another good argument, is there? Well, it is true in Republican politics when you ask is it more important to you, your values, your feelings and your opinions than it is electability?

They'll pick over electability. Right now this is a little different scenario. We've got eight qualified candidates hit the stage here in Milwaukee. They're going to talk about whether we want to continue to go on the path that we're on with Joe Biden, our Donald Trump is president, or do we want to look to a next generation of Republicans.

It's going to be the base of the Republican Party that's going to elect him. You're correct. Donald Trump's got about a 42% hold on it. And if you do the Math, that's about 58% of us aren't voting for yet.

So there's an opening there. We got eight folks going after the 58. I'm for the one very different person on that stage tonight, which is probably one of the most courageous people I know, which is a woman, Nikki Haley, the only person out of 328 million people in America to sign up to run for president. Not only that, she signed up as the only person first to run against Donald Trump.

Pretty courageous, pretty different governor of South Carolina. You know, I just listen to Ken and I appreciate that we have people there for all of our candidates. But underestimate Nikki Haley. Tonight will be a mistake with some of these other gentlemen.

What's, what's a successful night look like? Do you want a lot more foreign policy? If it's a heavier foreign policy night, does that give her more opportunities? Is there a specific way you're looking for her to showcase herself tonight?

Chuck, I remember when I, when I found Nikki Haley giving out donuts in the school line right up to the state House in South Carolina. And I think she could win. Underestimating her. What's going to happen tonight?

Certainly her foreign policy chops of a person who certainly stood strong with our allies, who were with us in the UN and against our enemies, which China, Russia and the next. I think her foreign policy chops and the fact that she was governor of the state of South Carolina. And Chuck, you've been on the ground in South Carolina 20 years ago. You remember how tough it is to win a race there.

You were there and Nikki Haley came through one and won two of them. And so I don't know what the boys are going to throw out of tonight, but I guarantee you she can catch it, throw it back. Oh. What's interesting is I remember her when she was the outsider.

Now she's seen as more establishment. Is that hurting her candidacy a little bit that she doesn't get to be the outsider compared to the other outsiders? That's a great point. Nikki Hay never has the ones to go to boys for sure.

And I think you got to watch her performance tonight. She's a, she's a, she's a, she's a cool debater. Right now she has to introduce herself to the rest of the Republican nation. Nikki's been spending a lot of time in the early free states, raising money and putting together a campaign to look for successfulness.

And she was the first one to step up against date props to her own. And let's just see how it turns out tonight. Tonight, a little uneventful. I'm not looking for a really big audience tonight, Chuck.

I do think that the hardcore bass is going to be paying attention, but the president's jumped in the middle of it. We know that he's missing. He's going to be united tomorrow. We're going to run on you.

Tell me, Chuck, we got about four hours worth of news for changes on deck tonight. Is that about right? I know he does seem to use bad news and turn them into good events for himself. King Dawson, who is supporting Nikki Haley today and throughout the campaign, but on the ground for her tonight.

Thanks very much. All right, Joe, thank you. And don't forget to tune in tonight for the Meet the Press special at debate analysis without all the crazy spinning that you might get in some places. We're just going to tell you what actually happened.

Crazy things like fact checks, all sorts of stuff. Get reactions for the campaign. It's, it's a post debate show for true political junkies and people who just want to know what happened and why it happened. 11pm Eastern right here on NBC News Now.

No place else to hang out. Up next, what we know and don't know about the plane that crashed outside of Moscow that may or may not have had one of Putin's top rivals on board. All of that is according to Russian state media. You're watching the press now.

Imagine yourself in Ottawa surrounded by thousands of vibrant tulips. Oh. And discovering your new favorite microbrew before cycling along scenic bike paths and wandering through a museum in awe. Ah, adventure awaits in Ottawa.

From O to ah plan your gateway at Ottawa tourism. Cat. Welcome back. We've been following the stunning breaking news out of Russia this afternoon as Russia's air transport agency is claiming that Wagner group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin was listed as a passenger on a plane that crashed today.

Russian officials say all 10 people on board that aircraft died in the crash. Musing is not able to independently verify reports of progression's presence on the plane. This video shows appears to show the fiery wreckage of the plane after it crashed and it bears the same registration number as the plane link to Prigozhin. The crash comes after Prigozhin launched a short lived coup attempt against the Russian neighborline earlier this summer the way it was against Putin.

While the military is up for debate. The CIA is declining. The White House says President Biden has been brief on the reported plane crash. And we actually heard from the President during his vacation stay in Lake Cao just a few months ago.

I don't know for a fact what happened. I'm not surprised. There's not much that happens. I don't know enough to leave.

We shouldn't forget what Secretary say Anthony Blinkett said to my pilot, Mitchell about potential consequences for the mercenary chief during the Aspen Festival last month. You know, if I were Mr. Prigozhin, I would remain very concerned. NATO has an open door policy.

Russia has an open windows policy, and he needs to be very focused on that. So what do we know and what are we still waiting to find out? Our chief foreign corner, Richard Engle, is on the beat now as well. And I also have this Formos ambassador, Russian crimes analyst Mike McFall.

Richard, let me start with you. You know, we're all being extraordinarily careful, so what do we know? And we know there's a second plane that people have talked about, also registered to the Vagner Group that has landed safely. What information do you feel like you have that's fact?

Well, all we have as fact is that the Russians are claiming that Prigozhin was listed on the manifest. All right, Richard, I don't know if you hear me. We lost your audio, so we're gonna get that corrected here in a second. Let me go to Mike McFall.

And Mike, obviously you've got unverified channels that you're able to tap into at times. Let's start with the basics. Do we believe Prigozhin's dead, Chuck? To the best of my knowledge, yes, it appears that he's dead.

We need to remind everybody that he had a second plane. That second plane has landed in Moscow. Now, various telegram channels of Russia operated by Russians in Moscow are saying he's probably on that plane. So just by way of context, we don't know for sure, but I would say the reporting I'm saying overwhelmingly said that he died in that crash.

And let's call it for what it is, it doesn't appear to be a crash. It appears that there was either an explosion on the plane or was shot down. And that I think has happened. So it looks like the Russian government allegedly assassinated Yevgeny Prigozhin.

And I just added allegedly there because I also want us to be careful that we don't know exactly if Putin was the one that ordered this assassination. And we'll probably never know Chuck, because he doesn't want us to know exactly when these kinds of things happen. Richard, I think we have your audio now, free and clear. Let's go back to what do we feel like we know, and what do we think we'll be able to find out and confirm independently?

Well, we confirmed independently might be very difficult. Reporting in Russia right now is extraordinarily complicated. Since the war in Ukraine has begun, the Russians have imposed extraordinary limitations on the ability of reporters to operate in that country. There are journalists in jail in Russia right now.

But the Russians, according to the different state media organizations and state institutions, including the Aviation Authority, have laid out a pretty clear picture. They say that this plane, a corporate jet registered to Prigozhin, to the Wagner group, was leaving from Moscow on Twitter to St. Petersburg. That about 30 minutes into the flight, traveling about 26,000ft, suddenly it failed, and it failed catastrophically.

And there is a video of this aircraft plummeting from the sky, falling like a stone in a way that does not suggest that anything normal or natural happened. It is twisting and spinning as it falls out of the sky and then crashes into the ground, into a fireball because it's still full of fuel. So according to the Russians, he was manifested on this plane, and that the plane went down and that there was a second plane in this convoy also carrying Wagner personnel, and that that plane made it. So some Prigozhin supporters, and there are quite a few of them online, he became something of a hero, launched this mutiny against the Kremlin, people who hated Vladimir Putin, who thought that Prigozhin was doing the right thing, calling out the crooks, calling out the criminals, challenging them on their own turf.

They are still hopeful that maybe he was. That he's on the second plane. That wouldn't put him out of danger if the Russians were trying to kill him, or that it's all a ruse, that he maybe registered his name on the plane, or that somebody else on the plane was using the name Evgeny Prigozhin in an attempt to confuse the authorities. But that's all speculation.

We know that this plane has crashed. We know that it was unsurvable, and we know that the Russians say he was on it. And everything about it is incredibly suspicious. The way it fell down.

That was two months to the day since the uprising. Since we know that Vladimir Putin pardoned Yevgeny Prigozhin in this very bizarre, also not credible deal, that after Prigozhin marched his Wagner troops up toward Moscow and was not meeting much Resistance. Prigozhin stopped and was suddenly offered this sweetheart deal to be pardoned and take his fighters to Belarus so that they could train a friendly allied government in counterterrorism tactics and commando tactics. That was allegedly the deal.

But most people believe it was just a matter of time before Putin would get his revenge, that Putin needed a little bit of time to figure out who else was involved and sort out Prigozhin's business empire, understand them better, try to take it over before eliminating this rival, Mike McFalworth. Mildly. The part that I'm struggling to believe here is the idea that Prigozhin was in Moscow. Like, what?

That doesn't seem like to be the smartest location to be hanging out, given the situation he created for himself. Are you surprised that he was living in Russia? Yes, in a couple respects. I'm glad you're asking this chat, because now that we know he's been killed, we've all jumped to the conclusion it was a matter of time.

I said that too many times. But there's a lot of weird things that happened between the mutiny and today that he cut a deal. Why did he cut a deal? Then?

He went to Belarus. Everything seemed fine. Then he was in St. Petersburg right next to President Putin when President Putin was holding a summit with African leaders.

And he had his own kind of bilats, you know, on the sidelines of that summit. And they're all going over to see it. Mr. Prigozhin.

Why didn't they arrest him then? Why didn't they put a bullet in his head then? If this was all such a fated complete, it's just a matter of time. Why did they have to do something so dramatic that we're all watching?

Why didn't they arrest him? So I think, you know, there's a lot of strange questions here. Obviously, Prigozhin was lulled into believing that he and Putin were good and otherwise he'd been doing all those things. It sounds like he miscalculated, but there's a lot I want to know, including, was Putin the guy behind this alleged assassination?

Well, one more. Let me throw something more into the timeline here. Yesterday we did that video of Prigozhin in Africa. This morning, one of the generals he worked with was officially sort of removed from their job.

And all of a sudden, a few hours later, this plane crashes or in a fiery ball. I mean, it's hard to see that any of that stuff isn't. It can't be coincidental. Well, I'll take a couple of things.

First to the point of why he let him run around for a while and then maybe killed him. I just want to keep emphasizing. I'm not. I do not know that Vladimir Putin ordered the assassination of Prigozhin.

That hasn't been confirmed. It probably never will be. But just for a minute, let's assume that's true. I think he let this go on because he wanted to use this moment to find out who were these traitors inside his government.

Remember what Richard said? Richard said that Prigozhin was popular. I think that's very important for Americans to understand. Inside Russia with the soldiers.

He's a thug, he's a criminal, he's a terrorist. I know. You know, I'm glad to see him off the field. And believe me, Ukrainians are, too.

But within the armed forces, within. You're just showing some footage from Rostov when he's leaving. People are getting selfies with him. That made it more difficult for Putin to take him out right away.

And I'm not convinced that those problems are over just because this has happened today. Richard, what does this mean for these African countries? That the Wagner group has become their essentially mercenary force? So you mentioned it just in your conversation right now.

For the last several months, Putin has spent a lot of time focusing on Africa. He had this Africa summit. He was talking about Africa just the other day at the BRICS summit. So since this uprising, this mutiny happened.

And in a way, Vladimir Putin subcontracted out Africa to the Wagner Group. The Wagner group was the forward operations arm of the Kremlin, military and political. In Africa, I saw myself in the Central African Republic. The embassy there was Wagner.

It was Wagner that was on patrol in the streets. I asked the government about it. I asked the president. He said, well, we needed security protection.

We wanted Russian security protection. And they sent Wagner. And that's up to Moscow to send to whoever they want to. So after this mutiny, we saw Putin focusing a lot on Russia, trying to reestablish those relationships, trying to make them more official, make them more officially part of the Kremlin, and not subcontracted out to Wagner.

And it seems that perhaps. Oh, man. Well, Richard, you're not gonna like this. We lost your audio again.

And now you've just frozen on camera as well. Very quickly, Mike McFall is guarantees. We're here from the rest of Republican candidates about where they stand on Putin tonight. As somebody just texted me, this is Putin.

An odd way for Putin to ensure he gets into the debate. Questions. Yeah. And there's it's too bad that one of his presidential candidates won't be there to talk about it, the one who has the closest relationship to Mr.

Putin. That's it. I hope that somebody will ask him eventually what he thinks as well. And it'll be interesting to see how everybody else dances around this tonight.

Mike McCall, Richard Engel, I know you're we're trying to always tough sometimes tech on the road. Thank you both. Former President Trump now expected to surrender to Fulton county authorities tomorrow afternoon just in time for the 6:30 and 7:00 clock newscast. This is when he wants to time his arraignment.

Anything he can do to step on any post debates been relied on land with the latest in that case. It's a new balance title key witness in the special counsel's high documents case, the Florida federal case against Mr. Trump. That's ahead.

You watch the president. Welcome back. We turn down to Fulton County, Georgia, where there has been a flurry of activity as defendants in fine Melissa's case slowly start to turn themselves in. It's also where we expect see Donald Trump tomorrow evening.

He is timing his arraignment for around 6 o' clock hour. He is he is still somebody that thinks the 6:30 evening news is something to time events for. And that's what he's doing. So far, nine of the 19 defendants have been booked.

Several others have reached bond agreements with the district attorney's team. Among those is Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, who traveled to Georgia today where his Bond was at $150,000. He was then booked at the Fulton County Jail. Here's what Julianna had to say this morning as he left his New York City apartment.

I'm going from county to apply the law, which I always do. I'll I don't know if I kill you today, but I do like please not gilded and I get a photograph. Isn't that nice? A mudshot to the man who probably put the worst pencils of 20 century jail.

Joining me now from outside that Fulton county jail is Vaughn Hilliard. And Vaughn, I know you got into a spirited discussion there with Rudy Giuliani as he sort of struggles to deal with his legal problems. We know he's got financial problems now because his client doesn't pay some of the bills there. What have you seen today and how combated was Rudy?

Right. I think it's, you know, spirited was one way to put it. I think that happens when it's 96 degrees and you have, I mean, maybe actually 70 or 80 cameras and reporters and others and protesters around you. And you've got the former mayor of New York who literally left his formal surrender and booking and walked outside of the jail, which this is the exit of, and stood right here.

And really it took a few questions, yet was able to get one very specific one to him. And I'll let you listen to the exchange. And to preface it, the reason it was asked was because one month ago in a filing here in Georgia, Rudy Giuliani chose not to contest the fact that he had made false statements about Ruby Freeman and Shay Moss as two Fulton county workers and the allegations that he had made. The accusations he had made that they engaged in voter fraud.

He chose not to contest those claims of voter fraud. Take a listen to the attempt to ask him about that and what it could mean for this case and these charges of making false statements. I entered into a stipulation for the purposes of that case to move on. It specifically says I do not in any way admit the truth of those allegations are totally false.

You did not contest that you made fraudulent claims and you're lying, as you often do. If you read it, it says it was only for the purpose of that occasion if you had the opportunity to refute them, Mr. Mayor. So he says that it's on an admission and in that filing, he says that it is specific to that case.

It's hugely honest defense. But this is a complicated part because the district attorney or indictment made the direct allegation that he only made false statements in the aftermath of the 2020 election. And in one case that it's gone to court so far as that Nation case, he goes back to contest the fact that he made all statements. Very quickly, Vaughn, there's a couple of people that still haven't made it there.

Obviously, we'll have Donald Trump tomorrow. But Mark Meadows, and he's trying to get a suit heard in court before the Friday deadline. What more can you explain about that? Right.

The district attorney's deadline to put to a judge. Her response to Mark Meadows request to have his essentially booking deadline instead of being at this Friday going to next week has been submitted by the district attorney's office. Now the judge will rule whether Meadows must appear here in Atlanta by Friday or not. Mark Meadows is making the case that his case should be heard in federal court and that he says with a hearing slated for next week, he should not have to appear and formally surrender and go through the booking process until it's determined whether a federal court will hear it instead of State one here in Georgia.

All right, Vaughn Hilliard in Fulton county for us. Vaughn, we're going to Mission, Iowa tonight, but that's all right. That's also a big story down there as well. Good to see my friend.

Thank you. We turned out a few more legal developments facing Trump. This one out of Florida or learning about key witness injects misclassified documents case who dropped his lawyer that the Trump Super PAC was paying for. And he retained his previous statement instead providing information implicating the former president and his co defendants.

According to this new court filing, Trump employee number four, when Mason is identified as UCL Tavaris, changed his testimony about efforts to delete security camera footage at Trump's Marlaga Resort. The new testimony resulted in last month's superseding indictment, tacking on three more counts to translate charges in Florida, as well as naming an addition additional co defendant Carlos Day Oliveira. So for more on this, I'm driving by justice and television. Ken, the second we saw Trump employment number four, right in that superseding diet, we knew something was up.

And how much of this is tied to the Jack Smith filing with the judge that said, hey, there's something haywire here with all these lawyers. There's too many conflicts here and some clients may not be served well by their current counsel. So that's why we're learning about it. And we're also learning about because judge in Florida alien cannon is pressing Jack Smith to justify why he was using two separate grand juries.

And that's where this matter arose because essentially, as you said, this didn't just happen. This happened in July. I'm glad you're making that point because it's getting a little bit lost today. We knew when the supersede indictment came out making this extraordinary charge of Donald Trump conspired to destroy surveillance voyages under Spinach.

We knew that there was a witness that had given provided evidence and that witness was employee number four useful to bear. So what we now know is the circumstances of it was he was first represented by a lawyer paid for by Trump. The documents say he lied to the grand jury, which is a crime. He hasn't the charge of that crime because why he flipped.

And he's testifying now in cooperation with Jack Smith. And what's so fascinating with a federal public defender, an independent lawyer, and what's so fascinating about this to me is the other two code offense in this case, Walt Nada and Carlos Oliveira are in exactly the same situation. They're represented by Trump funded lawyers and they According to the government, they spoke to Trump and they could provide crucial testimony about this conspiracy if they were cooperating right now. So they're sharing counsel with Trump.

Correct. They're basically represented by the same lawyers, his co defendants here. And this gets back to what Jack Smith was saying. Well, wait a minute.

Is one lawyer gonna cross examine? Right, right. A witness that we put on the stand. Are they gonna.

I mean there was. Just whose interest does the lawyer have more of Donald Trump or the other client? That's right. And this really underscores the problem here.

Now it's not unethical on its face. You're allowed. Can the judge order new counsel? The judge can do that.

The judge has any reason to believe that this client's interest is not being represented. We saw this with Cassie Hutchinson, remember during January 6th she had one story when she was represented by Trump funded lawyer who told her, remember according to her, you don't have. They don't know what you know. You don't have to remember everything so carefully.

As soon as she got an independent lawyer, she told the story in full as she remembered it. It was very damaging to Trump. So we may see more of this. To me it's bananas that Walt, not a Carlos Oliver are gonna go to prison.

I know. For Donald Trump. All right, well he's pulled this off for years. He has pulled this off the trip organization.

Look who's sitting in. Look who served time for him. He sent plenty of people to perform full service. Kent, thank you.

Up next, we're getting deeper than say the race heading in tonight's debate and how the field is going to address the Trump sized elephant in the room that won't be on the stage panels next. Welcome back. Ahead, tonight's debate, it is worth noting that there are persuadable Republican primary brothers out there. But some candidates on stage need to do some work to get on their radar.

Our new dynamic news media compuls acts like the Republican caucus order their first and second choice candidates for as well as who they were considering and you add it all up. And Anne seldom like to call it the footprint. Right. What is the, what is the footprint each candidate has right now?

The pockets. Some of them are size small. Ahead of this first debate just Trump and Stantons and Scott have a footprint of over 50%. Really?

Nikki Haley and VIP Ramaswamy are the next two. Then you start to see it go down there. Join me now on set is Daniel Diaz, congressional reporter for Political Fashion Corps, senior advisor to Monsieur Bern Sanders and Republican strategist Brad Todd. Brad, this is your side of the aisle.

You don't have a front runner there tonight. You don't have a candidate in this race. But if you did, what would you, what advice would you, what would your debate memo look like? I don't know if it would look like.

What would your date look like? Well, I would say, first off, all Republican primary voters know plenty of reasons not to vote for President Trump, but they're still looking for all the qualities they like in President Trump for the most part, with the exception to be a quarter. So the debate tonight is to be Trump plus, and the momentum is there for a candidate who can clear the field and prove that they gave the qualities Trump has, plus without his baggage. And I will maybe it's 55% that's ready for Trump plus.

And so I think that's the audition tonight, Danielle. I think we're going to find out who's going to be the best Trump defender. Right. When you hear from Chris Christie or aside, I assume both the Santos and Ramaswamy see that as almost an opportunity to potentially do that.

What do you think that looks like? Well, it's going to be a delicate balance. Right. Chalk, because they're going to have to walk this fine line of, look, I agree with his policies.

I agree with what he's done when he was president in 2016. I agree with what he did, but I don't agree with certain things, like, for example, his indictments. There's going to have to be a distinction they're going to have to draw. And I think that's what we don't know what it's going to look tonight.

It's specifically how do these candidates like DeSantis go forward and draw that distinction? By keeping his voters and getting them, convincing them to support him instead. I think that's gonna be really, really tricky. We still don't exactly know what that's gonna look like.

You know, Faz, you were, you were a campaign manager for Bernie Sandersman when he had to get ready for the first of two nights of debates, 20 candidates. And that first debate, you know, it's funny, you know, it's like first debates matter, but you're not sure how they matter until down the road, in turn, that first debate matter a lot. That was really definition of the Democratic Party's identity, even though there wasn't like one moment that everybody looked at and said that was decisive. Yeah, I was thinking about that, too.

I mean, especially with the BNC team, when you're debating them, it Feels like, you know, with the BNC team, when they're debating, many of them are they're wrestling for position. If you're a front runner, you kind of know I'm playing for the long. He was at a comfortable place, take care of it. And the goal is not to get dragged by the other.

So, hey, stay on your lane. Let them play in the sandbox. And they're playing a different sandbox. You're trying to figure out which one they're playing for long as I'm picking up people like Pete versus Andrew Yang.

Andrew Yang at some point was a movement leader of a kind, but he claimed for social attention. I thought Pete had a better strategy of I'm playing for a longer haul. And I wonder in this field, you know, the policy debate here is probably to the left of Trump. That's probably where the actual policy is.

I don't think anything was going to go there. So I don't know where they're competing. I assume the only substantive debate we see united is on foreign policy, because I think there's genuinely disagreement out there about the direction. American.

Well, some of you feel like maybe making it up on the fly. Well, I don't want to make that accusation, but in general, it certainly seems like some people that study the issue a little bit more than that. I do think foreign policy is a thing that is. There certainly has some divisions on the side.

It is more animated. Although Republicans unite when there's a definite defined threat in the United States, when it's not a direct threat that Republicans get divided. I would go back to something Daniel said. I think it's fool's goal to defend Trump or attack him tonight.

So you wouldn't defend him? I wouldn't defend him or attack him. I think that it's an audition to prove you can take on the Democrats in the media as effectively as they think Trump does. And as soon as you prove you're over that threshold, you have a real shot to be the alternative to Trump.

There's a market for an alternative to Trump. It's just no one has been qualified yet. I've come back to DeSantis tonight because I feel like Daniel, in some ways, look, this is a great opportunity. I know he wanted Trump on that stage.

I think if you're. I think this is the. In some ways, if for some reason he's end up the nominee, it's going to be because he got. He got this moment.

Let's see how he handles the incoming, because I think the incoming is coming. How does he handle it? And I don't know how he's going to handle it because what we've seen of him in the limited performances hasn't been that great. Well, and everyone's going to attack him.

That's where he's the front run right now. That's not on the stage. And Trump is still going to take. And he feels a little vulnerable.

Right. And he feels very vulnerable right now after his memo. Debate memo. Everyone saw what the debate memo was.

He said he didn't read. He's trying to stay away from that. It's going to be tricky for him. And I think what we're going to see tonight is yes, he's going to have a chance to not have Trump in the room and have Trump attacking him, but Trump is still going to take all the oxygen from the room.

He's not there, but he's there and even his circuits are there. And I think that regardless of him trying to distinguish himself, he's still going to have to try to. You know, as I said earlier, this line, line of distinguishing himself is going to be very, very difficult. Faz is Vivek people.

That's what I think he's trying to figure out. Do you want to play for a strategy in which you are. You were looking at the number two, I'm sure which was like in a Republican primary. The Republican primary voters are different from Democratic primary voters.

We were always having to make argument for Bernie, he's more aligned with your values. But we to make the electron Desantis go make an electability argument. And when that Republican members are telling you that electability isn't a major consensus. This has always been a difference.

The distinguishing characteristic of Republican voters, one of the few times they went with electable guys in their minds was making a Romney. Here's the reason why it doesn't work because electability is an argument that geniuses in Washington make and tell the actual voters. Our voters resist being told what the genius is most. But I take your point there.

It's a definition on the Republican side. But there's more opponent Ron Sanders has, right? Yes. Trump who's not there.

He has a group of people in states who are there. The other opponent I think he has tonight is the perception that he's being handled. That's why the debate memo is such a big problem. He hates the notion that he's handled and so you somebody else deserves credit for what he's done too.

Right. The argument you've made that, hey, he gets a lot of credit for other people's work. He has been an effective emulator. And because he's the governor of Florida, he's often given credit for things that were succeeded elsewhere first.

Yeah. So, Daniela, two people haven't mentioned here that I have no idea what their strategy is like is Tim's Scott and Nikki Haley. But here's something to think about. Tim Scott.

Apparently he's never been involved in a debate before. Like anything of consequence. Nikki Haley's had debates, but he. People forget.

He kind of got an easy path to congressional statement when Jim left it, and then he got an easy path to sense the appointment. So he's never really. And I'm told that he really took this serious because he's never really done this before. So I have no idea what we see for a minute.

Well, and I have no idea either, Chuck, because he hasn't talked for quarters. He hasn't talked anybody in months, which is very. You know, when Elizabeth Warren went out to announce her campaign, she started talking to reporters in hallways on Capitol Hill to prepare for these moments, and she started talking to reporters at her campaign events. Bernie Sanders said the same thing and he'd always talk to reporters.

But this is what you do to prepare for these moments that you get a question that you're not ready for and you know what to say. I don't know what he's gonna say tonight. And he's kind of been allowed to be under the radar leading up to this. Strikes me as being verbally nimble.

And I just. We just don't know yet because he's never been in this. He doesn't put himself in this position. Timbscott has the chance to make the most of it tonight because he's the guy this creeping up on the Santa Saua just a handful of points down.

And so a good night tonight is a caucus going electric. There are gonna be people who watch the base. Right. Regular bear know what the base cocks scores do.

So with a good night tonight, he can find himself in second place. And I 12 weeks, that would be a sea change in the race right now. And if that happens, though, it becomes. Is that more of a reflection of Desantis or a reflection of sky?

I mean, Ronnie Sanders was made 13 points down nationally in late March. Now he's maybe 40 points down. Bernie's in New Hampshire this week. Yeah, we supposed to think of that fast.

That the progressive movement is still alive and kicking and we got millions of people who want a bold agenda. What is he gonna keep cornelis running for president. No one's gonna tell Cornellis what to do. You know, it's just decision to make.

But you know, if Biden plays his part right, Cornellis probably doesn't. Oh, interesting. Well, we'll find out what that is. Thank you guys.

Enjoy the debate tonight. I'll be back. I have an 11pm Eastern special beat the press special right here breaking down the first Republican presidential debate. Don't miss it.

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