Meet the Press NOW – December 15

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Hope you'll listen and follow the drink wherever you get your podcast. If it's Friday, in Israeli military operation, Gone Wrong. The IDF says it fatally shot three Israeli hostages being held inside Gaza after mistaking them as a threat as the fog and deadly cost of the war against Hamas grows more severe. Plus, new warnings from the White House urging Israel to adopt a more targeted approach to its assault on Hamas amid the spiraling humanitarian crisis inside Gaza.

And the view from swing state voters, why a group of key Michigan Democrats who supported Biden in 2020 tell me they're reluctant to do it again in 2024. What it could mean for the president and his party in key battlegrounds across the country. Welcome to Meet the Press Now. I'm Kristen Welker in Washington, where a week of wartime warnings from the Biden administration to Israel have just been punctuated by tragedy as Israel continues its offensive against Hamas and Gaza.

This afternoon, the Israeli military announced it mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages in Gaza. A spokesperson says the IDF opened an investigation and the families have been notified. According to the IDF, three hostages were mistakenly identified as a threat, and as a result, they were fired on and killed. The news comes just a day after National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan signaled stalled progress and talks to free additional hostages.

I don't have any news to report today, unfortunately, because there is not yet a clear path forward. But I will tell you that we are determined, as I know the Israeli government is determined, to stop at nothing to ensure that every last one of those hostages gets safely hung in their van. In Israeli official, also denying reports that the war cabinet blocked the head of Israel's elite intelligence agency from traveling to Qatar to initiate new negotiations. All of this comes at sources till NBC News.

The White House has been lobbying the Israeli government to end the large-scale ground campaign in Gaza and transition to a more targeted phase. Here's more from Sullivan. There will be a transition to another phase of this war, one that is focused in more precise ways on targeting the leadership and on intelligence-driven operations that continues to deal with the ongoing threat that Hamas poses. I'm not going to speak to timelines, and I'm not going to speak to conditions here from the podium.

What I am going to say is that we had a very constructive conversation yesterday about the transition from the high intensity phase forward. Now, an Israeli intelligence official says the ground campaign has, quote, many months ahead. Israel has faced mounting private and public criticisms from the U.S., including from the president himself. In fact, earlier this week, President Biden warned Israel at risks losing global support due to, quote, indiscriminate bombings in Gaza.

And yesterday, this was his response when asked if Israel should scale back. It's offensive. I want them to be focused on how to save civilian lives, not stop going after Hamas, but be more careful. Now, for his part, Prime Minister Netanyahu has remained defiant about his country's strategy.

Joining me now is Hallie Jackson and Tel Aviv. Aaron Gilchrist is at the White House, and Dandelouce joins me live on set. Hallie, I have to start with you and this horrific news from the IDF that it mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages. What's the very latest that you're hearing about that, Hallie?

We're hearing now from the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, Chris Ina, just the last little bit, calling this an unbearable tragedy for his country, saying that the country is in deep sorrow, deep mourning tonight, after the news that the IDF, the Israeli military, they say, have mistakenly killed these three hostages, unclear if they had escaped, unclear if they had been abandoned, according to the Israeli military, Yotam Heim, Alon Shamriz, and Samar Al Talakah. Those are the three people whose families you see their pictures here, their names here, whose families are mourning them tonight. This had been, in some instances, in many ways, the nightmare scenario, Chris, and for the hostage family members that we've been talking to here in and around Tel Aviv, in and around Israel, who are desperate to get their loved ones home. And that is why you are seeing such an outpouring here of support for those families in Israel.

We are also hearing some new reaction now from back home in Washington, Chris, and from the administration that you have covered, of course, and that is from the National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby, not on camera, but talking about this, saying that doesn't want to get too much into specifics. The specifics are not extremely clear at this moment, but of course, calling this a tragic mistake, essentially, as you, I believe, are looking live at some of the pictures from around a place called hostage square, where I believe some of these families on the move. This is actually a location we're headed to right after you're finished talking with you, because again, this is what's happening on the streets. So we're going to get some more information about what's going down on that last shot right there, Kristen.

We're going to bring that to you. But again, questions about, did these hostages try to speak Hebrew? Did they try to indicate in some way that they had been abducted to these Israeli troops who mistakenly identified them as terror threats? Essentially, there is going to be a massive investigation to come into how this could have happened, and how to stop it from happening again.

And how we will be so curious for your reporting once you're able to speak to the folks that we just saw there, holding signs, clearly in so much pain as this tragedy continues to unfold. And of course, the backdrop, as you have said, Hallie National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, traveling in the region we met with the director of Massad about those hostage negotiations last night, you and I were talking about this just yesterday, the status of these negotiations, which have effectively been stalled. That's right. Do you know anything about what may have come from those conversations with Jake Sullivan?

Do you have any anticipation they will move forward, Hallie? Yeah. So I was at the news conference this morning with the National Security Advisor here in Tel Aviv, Kristen, and obviously this came up, and he made very clear that this is a paramount priority, not just for the United States, but that he also heard very loud and very clear that this was a top priority for the Israeli government as well, in his various meetings with, you see him there, with the war cabinet, with President Herzog, with the Prime Minister Netanyahu. This has been such a focus for the Israelis, given that there are more than 130 people who believe to be held in Gaza right now, captured after that terror attack on October 7th.

The question is how do you get those talks started again? The Qataris have been instrumental in that. We know that the Defense Secretary, Lloyd Austin, is coming to the region, perhaps, and he will be visiting with the Qataris, perhaps that is going to be a point of conversation there. But at this point, there are not incredibly concrete signals that talks are moving forward, they do seem to be stalled.

Of course, there are always conversations happening behind the scenes, and we are going to have to see over the course of the next 24 or 48 hours or so how much this incident here, the deaths, the accidental killing of these three Israeli hostages by the Israeli military, perhaps may change the dynamic here and put more pressure on the Netanyahu administration to come to the negotiating table. Kristen? Yeah, I think that's really important perspective. That will be the key question.

Just how much pressure will they be feeling in the wake of this? And then, of course, there is the big picture to all of this, which we know that Sullivan is there, sending a message, reiterating what we've heard from the Secretary of State, reiterating quite frankly what we've heard from President Biden, which is that the administration wants Israel to do more, to limit the civilian casualties inside Gaza. Did Sullivan during that news conference how he's saying anything about a timeline? What are his expectations for when we might start to see progress in that front?

You can bet he was pressed about a timeline, Kristen, but he didn't get into specifics, partly because he said why would, and I'm paraphrasing here, why would we broadcast to Israel's enemy, essentially what a timeline would be? That is something we've heard from other Syrian administration officials as well, but it was very clear that the expectation from the US is that this war will go from what they call a high intensity clearing campaign, the bombs that we've seen dropping on Gaza to something more precise, something more targeted, and that expectation has been made clear from multiple administration members to the Israeli government, Kristen. Of course, it is that bombing that is creating that horrific humanitarian situation in Gaza, the immense suffering that we're seeing there with people hungry, people starving, people dying, children dying, the death toll now more than 18,000 according to the Hamas White Health Ministry there, Kristen. All right, Holly Jackson, thank you so much for your incredible reporting.

We're going to let you go, so you can get to that protest there and so you can talk to folks. We appreciate it. Please, my friend, continue to stay safe. Good to see you.

Thank you for joining us. Really appreciate it. I want to turn to Erin Gilchrist. Erin, let's talk about the Biden administration's reaction to all of this.

Holly just talked about what we've heard from John Kirby. I'm going to be speaking to him just momentarily, but set the stage there. What is the administration saying about this horrific breaking news? We heard we did hear from John Kirby about that just a little while ago.

He did a on the record phone call with some members of the media here in Washington and obviously expressed heartbreak over the fact that these three people who were hostages had been killed in some military action by Israel. And he said that he didn't have perfect visibility, as he said, on what exactly happened or how exactly this happened. But he had an expectation that the Israelis would be doing some forensics around their movements and trying to figure out how this sort of a mistake could have happened in the midst of their activities on the ground in Gaza at this point. And he did say that the president has been briefed on this president, Biden has been briefed on the incident, but he had not yet spoken to Prime Minister Netanyahu, which we know is something that's happening every few days.

And so you might expect, Kristin, that in the next couple of days, at least President Biden will have a conversation with the Prime Minister about this, about what happened here. And as was indicated by the National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, today in his briefing in Jerusalem there, that the US does have an expectation that while it is giving this really full-throated support to Israel, it does have an expectation that this high-intensity ground operation is going to be something that becomes more narrow, more precise, more targeted, directed specifically at Hamas leadership, for example, and something that is less of an impact on the civilian population going forward, Kristin. And Aaron, delve into that a little bit more, because that is, again, the focus of Jake Sullivan's trip to the region to try to pressure Israel and to make it quite clear to them that, as President Biden has said, he believes Israel risks losing support in its effort. If it doesn't do that, if it doesn't start to engage in more targeted attacks, talk about the conversations inside the White House right now.

How much consternation is there over what is happening and how to handle it? As I said, I think we're seeing this really public full-throated support for Israel's operation to take out Hamas. That is something that the administration has said. We've heard from the president himself and again today from both the National Security Advisor and the spokesman for the National Security Council.

But at the same time, there is, as you said, this growing concern about the civilian impact that these military operations are having, thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians having been killed in Gaza since October 7. And so the administration has said, repeatedly, both at the national security advisor level, at the leader level, the president, the prime minister, and everyone in between, that there is an expectation that these strikes are going to become more targeted, more specific, and have less of an impact on the civilian population. The administration has said that the approach that the U.S. has taken in dealing with Israel and the approach that Israel has taken on the ground has yielded results, but that the sacrifices, the lives lost, the civilian lives lost, it's just too much.

And there needs to be more done to make sure it's not as much of an impact as we've seen so far, Kristen. All right, Erin Gilchrist at the White House for us. Erin, thank you so much. Really appreciate your great reporting.

For more now, I'm joined by John Kirby, coordinator for Strategic Communications for the National Security Council. Thank you so much for joining me, John. I know this is a tough day. Really appreciate your being here.

You're absolutely happy to be here, Kristen. So let's start with this horrific news that is coming out of Israel, the revelations that the Israeli military has now confirmed. It mistakenly killed three Israeli hostages during ground operations in Gaza. I know that this is very early on, but what specifically can you tell us about how this could have happened and how the Israeli government is responding?

It's difficult to know with any great detail exactly how this happened. Even the Israelis have said publicly that they don't have all the details to flesh it out. I'm sure that they'll do the forensics here, Kristen, and try to figure out exactly what happened, learn lessons from it so it can't happen again. But it's just a tragic heartbreaking event.

Terrible, terrible day for those three families are going to get the worst possible news that any family can get. And we'll just have to leave it to the Israelis to speak to the details of this. We know that President Biden has been briefed on this earlier. You told some reporters that he has not yet spoken to Prime Minister Netanyahu.

I anticipate that will happen in short order. Can you tell us when you expect President Biden and Netanyahu to connect? I'm sure, without question, that President Biden will jump on the phone again with Prime Minister Netanyahu in coming days. He has kept up a very regular conversation with the Prime Minister since the conflict began on the 7th of October, since there was terrible attacks and he will continue to do that going forward.

I don't have a date starting on the calendar to offer you today. But as we have in the past, we will so going forward inform the American people of those conversations. And I know that President Biden just met with the families of the hostages. I imagine as they watch this unfold, it is adding to their agony.

What is the administration's message to the family of the US hostages? Same message that President Biden delivered to those families here at the White House just earlier this week. Number one, we aren't going to forget you and certainly not going to forget your loved ones. Number two, we're working very hard by the hour to try to see if we can get another hostage deal in place.

Now, as our National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, said today in the region, we don't have, we're not close to one right now. But this doesn't mean we're not working on it by the hour. And number three, and this is not unimportant, is we're going to keep you informed. We're going to stay in touch with you as we have in the past.

We will go forward to make sure that you know what we know and everything we can do to help alleviate your concerns and your anxiety. Now, we understand that we're not going to get rid of those fears and those concerns, but we're going to keep them informed as much as we can. Let's talk about Jake Sullivan and his meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu, obviously delivered a very strong message that, frankly, we've heard from President Biden, we've heard from the Secretary of State, which is with the United States, wants Israel to be more precise in its campaign to try to limit civilian casualties. What is the administration expecting in terms of a timeline for this and how receptive was the Israeli government to Jake Sullivan's message?

They have been receptive to our messages of concern about civilian casualties and about being more precise. And they have taken steps to try to do exactly that, using smaller units on the ground, going in on the ground, quite frankly, is a way of trying to be more precise and more surgical, relying a little less on airstrikes, providing safe zones or safe areas where public publicizing areas where people can go to stay out of harm's way. It's difficult for them to do that, given how many have already moved from the north to the south and how Hamas continues to want to hide up underneath their residential buildings or schools in their hospitals. So it's difficult.

This is a very special, I should say, added burden that these really have when it comes to going after an enemy that doesn't separate itself from the civilian population. But they have been receptive to those messages, they have taken certain steps. And obviously, as you've heard us say, even today, from the region, we want to see them do more and more can be done, more should be done, and we're having those conversations with them. And let me ask you, in terms of the humanitarian crisis, my colleague Peter Alexander reporting earlier that the Karam Shalom border will open for direct aid in the next couple of days.

Talk about the urgency behind that. And what's the day when you want to see this happen? Realistically speaking, when we talk about a couple of days, are you talking about over the weekend by next week? What can people expect?

Well, we're certainly hoping that overcoming days into early next week, we can get Karam Shalom open for the actual delivery of aid, not just for inspection purposes, but getting trucks through there. That adds a whole second avenue now. You've got trucks coming in through the Rafa crossing out of Egypt and then Karam Shalom, which is just a couple of miles away in southern Israel. But that would greatly improve our ability in terms of increasing the volume of trucks going in.

So a significant step forward, one that we urge our Israeli counterparts to consider, we're glad and grateful that they have decided to do this. And we're going to be working with them overcoming days on the modalities of that and exactly when it can be open. But it's a significant step forward. And it's good for the people of Gaza that they'll have now an additional stream of food, water, medicine, and fuel.

I want to ask you about this US intelligence assessment on so-called dumb bombs and just to give our audience a sense of what dumb bombs are. They're essentially unguided munitions. They carry a larger risk to civilian lives. How concerned is the administration that the Israeli government is in fact using dumb bombs?

And was there an agreement that they would limit the use of such munitions? These munitions are not what we call precision guided. It means they don't have some built-in capability, whether it's laser technology or infrared seeking to guide itself to a specific target. So it's unguided munitions.

That doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's being used recklessly. And I won't talk about the intelligence assessment. I think you can understand. I'm not going to get into that.

I'm not going to verify that report. But every military uses usually a balance of precision guided and unguided munitions dropped from the air. It really matters is how you do that. If you're going to use unguided munitions from the air, how are you?

What's the flying profile of the aircraft dropping it? What altitude and what speed is it dropping it? And how sure are you about the targeting process? Again, all those are things that the Israelis should speak to, not us.

But just the fact that unguided munitions are being used doesn't necessarily mean that it's being done, again, recklessly or in a wanton fashion. That said, as we've been talking about here today, we want to see them take as many steps as possible, going forward to be more surgical and more precise. And what's getting lost a little bit in this discussion is the more surgical and precise you are, the better able you're going to be to go after the intended target, which in this case is going to be Hamas leadership. We all want to see Hamas not being power in Gaza.

We all want to see Israel live in peace and security and eliminate the threat that was so visible in Bible to them on the 7th of October and being more precise and surgical is good for these Israeli people because it means that the munitions are going to where they should go, which is on the heads of the terrorist leaders. All right, John Kirby, thank you so much for answering all our questions. We really appreciate it. All right, and back with me on set is NBC's Dandelouse.

Thank you so much, Dan, for being here. Your reaction to what we just heard from John Kirby, obviously, he can't say a whole lot about this horrific breaking news out of Israel, the Israeli government acknowledging that it has killed three hostages mistakenly. But what were your takeaways from what we just heard? I mean, I think it's interesting that Israel is using a large number of unguided bombs or missiles that do not have any kind of laser guidance on them and that that obviously could be contributing to the incredible civilian death toll and casually toll there.

And on the hostages, that was always a risk. Obviously, it was always a risk. If Israel went into Gaza on the ground and in the air, their hostages live will be at risk. And now we've found out this terrible news.

And just a very big picture. We only have about 30 seconds. How does this intel factor into the criticisms that Israel is facing? It very much reinforces these really tough questions and this criticism that Israel is facing, that it is not taking precautions to protect civilians the way the White House says it's asking them to.

And the next question is, what are the consequences for that? Dentalists, thank you so much. We take you now to an NBC news special report as the decision has been reached in the Rudy Giuliani definition trial. The Heart and Stroke Larry is back with incredible one to two odds of winning.

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Price is subject to change. Visit NBCNews.com slash XFINITY for full offer terms and details. Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday sit down podcast. On this week's episode, I sit down with one of the biggest bands in the world, Mumford and Sons, as we get the boys together to talk about their new number one album, Prize Fighter, and the evolution of that irresistible foot stomping sound.

You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts. We'll be framing and Shane Moss, a mother and daughter say Giuliani damaged their reputations, mental health, and threatened their safety when he spread lies about them in a bid to overturn the 2020 presidential election results. Giuliani has admitted in the past that he did make defamatory statements about the women, but argue the comments did not cause them the distress they claim. NBC's senior legal correspondent, Laura Jarrod joins me.

Laura, break all this down for us. Yeah, Lester, Giuliani facing that massive jury verdict just coming in moments ago, as you announced the top line number there, $148 million there. He is being ordered to pay, having already been found liable on the core claims of defamation and emotional distress for these two election workers who were doing their civic duty that day back in 2020 counting absentee ballots. Giuliani had wrongfully falsely accused them of engaging in voter fraud, having gone on a conservative network and made a number of statements, which these women testified to change the course of their lives.

After he made those statements, he essentially unleashed a torrent of violent and racist rhetoric against them, and today he's being ordered to pay, again, top line number, $148 million. They broke it down against a number of different claims here for defamation and emotional distress. We'll run through all the different numbers there, but Lester, I should point out punitive damages, in particular here, $75 million, punitive damages of course, ordered to send a message, Lester. All right, Laura, I'll ask you to stand by.

Let me bring an NBC legal analyst, Danny Savales. Danny, how do juries go about deciding what the number is? There is no precise mathematical formula, and that kind of language is literally in the jury instructions for damages for emotional distress, for defamation, and punitive damages. That's why this is a case where the damages could have gone anywhere.

They could have been a couple hundred thousand dollars. They could have been two hundred million because it is really difficult to prove a dollar amount of harm when it comes to damage to reputation. Similarly, punitive damages, there is no formula for applying punitive damages, although courts in the DC Circuit have suggested that a single-digit multiplier, a double, triple, quadruple, that would probably be upheld on appeal. Once you get into 20 times compensatory damages, then you might get overturned, but this is within that range.

So, while this was a completely unpredictable number, it's likely that these numbers, as huge as they are, will survive appeal if the defense tries to appeal them. And you talk about appeal, the fact is the defense, in this case, really didn't put on onto the defense other than saying that's too much money or they don't deserve it. In a sense, they couldn't put on a defense, especially as to liability. That's because liability was already determined.

In fact, punitive damages were already determined, not the dollar amount, but the need to impose them because there was already finding that Rudy Julianne acted with a requisite intent to merit punitive damages. In other words, damages intended to punish because of his reckless and worst conduct against the plaintiff. So, this is exactly the situation where there wasn't much defense to put on in the first place because issues of liability and a lot of issues related to damages were already determined and determined because of Julianne's own failure to participate in the discovery process. So, that was on the Julianne defense team for failing to produce discovery.

And the punishment here was that this trial was only ever about damages. And the plaintiff's just had to prove to the jury what a reasonable amount was for the harm to their reputation and their emotional distress. All right, Danny Sivalis, Danny. Thanks very much.

That concludes this NBC News special report. More coverage ahead on our streaming channel, NBC News Now and online at NBCNews.com. And of course, I'll be back with you shortly for NBC Nightly News for now in New York. I'm Lester Holt.

Thank you for watching and good day. And we continue to follow breaking news. As a jury has a decision in the defamation suit against Rudy Giuliani, a judge had already ruled that the former New York City mayor and former Trump attorney had defamed two former Georgia election workers. Jurors that were tasked with deciding just how much in damages those workers should receive.

NBC News Justice and Intelligence correspondent, Ken Delaney, and has been covering this trial. And he joins me now. So, this is a huge sum can break down the takeaway here and what it means. It's a stunning verdict, Kristen.

Kristen, it drew audible gasps in the courtroom, and it exceeded even what the plaintiffs were asking for and what their expert witness said their damages were. So, the jury awarded each woman a different figure in compensation for defamation. Ruby Freeman was awarded $16.2, roughly $1 million. Her daughter, Shay Moss, was awarded $16.9 million.

Then the jury awarded each of them $20 million for intentional infliction of emotional distress, and then a total of $75 million for punitive damage, which is designed to punish Mr. Giuliani for the harm that he caused. So, I was personally, I was expecting a big number, but this exceeds probably what anyone thought was possible. Now, whether Rudy Giuliani is able to pay anything close to this, it remains to be seen.

And, of course, he likely will appeal this number. So, there may be maybe far away from an actual compensation in this case, but this sends a powerful message. This is a jury inflicting a punishment really for the first time in a courtroom for lies about the election and furtherance of Donald Trump trying to stay in power. And what was so remarkable about this case is that the statements at issue were never in question.

The judge ruled that they were lies, that they were defamation. And Mr. Giuliani acknowledged in court papers that they were. And so, this four-day trial was entirely about how much money he should pay these women for the harm that he caused and there was some gripping and harrowing testimony from each of the women about the horrible racist threats and attacks they received.

Their lives were really turned upside down when Mr. Giuliani accused them, baselessly, of election fraud. They had to leave their homes, they had to leave their jobs, their lives have never been the same, and now they have been awarded a giant sum of money in compensation. Yeah, all totaling $148 million.

Can I want to talk to you about the contours of this trial, but before we do, I just want for our audience sake to understand, if Rudy Giuliani cannot pay that sum and, presumably, it would be a challenge given that we know all of the reporting around his challenges just to pay his legal bills, what happens in that case? How do these women, in fact, get compensation when he might not have that much money to pay? Right. Well, assuming that this is upheld on appeal and eventually a judgment is entered against Mr.

Giuliani for whatever sum of money it ends up being, that judgment would hang over him. Now, as you said, he is in some financial difficulty right now. He's being sued by his former lawyer for more than a million dollars in legal fees that the lawyer says he is owed. He reportedly has put his New York apartment on the market for $6 million, and his law licenses have been suspended, so he really has no way to earn money, at least through the legal profession right now.

So in many situations like this, the person ends up filing for bankruptcy, and their assets are sold off, and the people who hold the judgment, in this case, Ruby Freeman and Jay Moss end up just trying to get pennies on the dollar in a situation like that. So, you know, unfortunately, for them, they may not see very much money out of this, but what a powerful message this sent and, you know, broadcasting to the world that the things he said about them were lies, and they were such egregious lies that a jury awarded them $148 million. And Ken, of course, we first met Ruby Freeman and Jay Moss at the January 6th trials, and as you say, they were the center of really gripping testimony in this case. Can you give us a few of those moments throughout the trial that really stood out to you?

I know that they spoke very emotionally about the fear that they had, and what they suffered because of the threats that they were getting against their lives. Yeah, that's right, Kristen. And just to remind viewers the way that Mr. Giuliani defamed these women was he pointed to a video when they were working as poll workers, and he claimed that they were passing USB drives among one another.

He said, like, vials of cocaine or heroin. He claimed that they were stuffing ballots into suitcases. It was all made up. In fact, the supposed USB drive was a ginger mint.

But as soon as he said that, and then the Trump campaign began amplifying it and Donald Trump amplified it, they began to get racist, vile, hateful messages on their phone. And Shane Moss in particular talked about how you should have a 14-year-old son at the time who was using that phone and seeing some of these messages, and it really affected him. He ended up failing his classes. Both women had to leave their homes for a time because of the physical threats to their safety.

Shane Moss talked about going to try to apply for a job at a Chick-fil-A, and then being asked by the manager about this photo on the internet with her picture and word fraud embossed on it, and could she explain that? So there was no place she could go where these voters turned around. Jen, I'm going to interrupt you. Where did Giuliani is speaking?

Let's listen in. Merely underscores the absurdity of the entire proceeding, where I've not been allowed to offer one single piece of evidence in defense, of which I have a lot. So I am quite confident when this case gets before a fair tribunal. It will be reversed so quickly.

It will make your head spin, and the absurd number that just came in will help that, actually. Why did you choose that? I cannot go into the details. I didn't testify because the judge made it clear that if I made any mistake or did anything wrong, she was considering contempt, and this judge does have a reputation for putting people in jail.

And I thought, honestly, it wouldn't do any good. Do you still believe that what you said about these two women in the way of 2020? I have no doubt that my comments were made and they were supportable and are supportable today. I just did not have an opportunity to present the evidence that we offered.

Did you notice we were not allowed to put in one piece of evidence in defense? Do you also realize that liability is not based on any trial? My ability is based on her disagreement with me on discovery, which is absurd. Because I believe the judge was threatening me with the strong possibility that I'd be held in contempt or that I'd even be putting jail.

So it didn't seem like it was going to do much to persuade anybody. And it could give her what she seemed to be threatening. Do you have any regrets about some of the comments that the women received? Well, of course, the comments they received I had nothing to do with.

Those comments are abominable. They're deplorable. No, defensive, but I receive comments like that every day of different kinds of things. I've represented clients who have gotten that from the other side.

This is a terrible part of our political system. Republicans, Democrats, liberals, and conservatives all get that. My comments weren't that. And I think that was also a very unfair part of it, because my comments had no connection at all to those there were thousands of things on the in the press about this, of which mine were a small amount.

There's no way to say that my comments connected to that, but that's going to be part of what will get to litigate in a fair court. Thank you. All right, that is Rudy Giuliani, who was ordered to pay more than $148 million to former Georgia election workers in a civil defamation suit. Joining me now with more is NBC news legal analyst Danny Zavala standing.

Let's just do a couple of fact checks from what we just heard from Rudy Giuliani. One, the message is that the women received were not just racist. They were violent. They were death threats.

They talked about the fear they felt for their lives, for their families lives. In addition to that, he said he didn't have a chance to present any evidence. He decided not to take the stand. He could have taken the stand in his own defense.

I'll let you continue with the fact checking. But what are your takeaways? Yeah, it's the second part that I think bothers me the most. Number one, just like you pointed out, he could have taken the stand and he sort of eluded the question, but he sort of implied that I just I thought the judge would hold me in contempt.

That doesn't seem very likely. I mean, maybe a judge would admonish you for your testimony, but as long as you testify without causing a ruckus, you're not going to get held in contempt right there on the stand, unless, of course, you're lying or doing something more egregious. But the other thing that makes that a ridiculous statement is that he had an opportunity to participate in the discovery process. The reason liability was determined was as a sanction for failure to produce discovery.

Had he wanted to participate in the liability phase and he wanted to put on evidence, he could have done so by disclosing discovery and participating in the same discovery process that all the litigants are required to participate in, including his opponents, including the plaintiffs who undoubtedly had to turn over all kinds of things, maybe even things that they didn't want to turn over, but that's discovery in the civil system in America. And if you don't participate in discovery, you face sanctions. And it had to be pretty bad for the ultimate sanction of deciding the issue of liability against Giuliani. I want to make clear, most of the time, if you get caught in a discovery violation, maybe there's a dollar fine, maybe a piece of evidence is precluded, but to have liability determined against you is really exceedingly rare.

So Giuliani did have an opportunity to participate, to put on his case, and to argue liability and virtually anything else he wanted to had, he wanted to. And it's pretty clear that he didn't, no matter what he appears to say in his little post trial press conference. Denny, he was pretty bullish there. He said he's gonna appeal.

He said he thinks that the sum that he has been slapped with will only help his appeal. Does he have a point there? What are you expecting as we watch this move forward through the legal system? So there's a lot of case, excuse me, a lot of cases on the issue of punitive damages and of course runaway verdicts.

And here's the thing with defamation, emotional distress and punitive damages. Those are like the trifecta in civil cases where damages are really difficult to ascertain. This isn't like a contract case where you can say, hey, the business lost this amount of money, we can show a decline from year 2021 to 2023. And here's that number.

The jury instructions themselves in these cases literally say it is hard to figure out what the damages should be for emotional distress for punitive damages and for damage to reputation. So that is why the plaintiffs came up with a very creative avenue. What they did is they put on evidence of what it would cost to pay someone to repair their reputation online and elsewhere. Very creative strategy because that probably gave the jury a hook to hang a number on because ultimately in these kinds of cases, the jury is back there in the room kind of making it up.

So appealing this, generally speaking, multiples of single digits on compensatory damages will be upheld on punitive damages. But if you get into like 20 times the compensatory damages, that might get overturned. So they're within the range, the dollar amount alone should get upheld on appeal. All right, Danny Svalos, thank you so much.

And Ken Delaney beforehand, really appreciate your great analysis, Danny. Thank you so much. And joining me now on set is Dan America, national political reporter for the messenger, Democratic strategist Amisha Cross and Stephen Hayes, editor and CEO of the dispatch as well as an NBC News political analyst. Well, we have a new topic to talk about.

I'm going to go around and get your reaction to what we just witnessed, the implications, Dan America, what does it mean? Big picture here, you have Rudy Giuliani, let's just remind everyone, he was an attorney and advisor to former president Trump, one of the people who was in it with him as they were pushing to overturn the results of the 2020 election on this very specific point. This defamation suit here, he has been slapped with $148 million, politically speaking, what do you think the implications are? I have to wonder if you are a candidate for office that supports Donald Trump and you are pushing lies about the 2020 election, if you are somebody who works for Donald Trump and are definitely going to be asked to say things that maybe you don't believe in about the 2020 election, if you're Donald Trump himself, I'm not sure it's breaking through to him because he said it so many times, if you're in any of those positions, and you're going to be running again in 2024 and you see this, $150 million, give or take a few million, being ordered to be paid by somebody who probably doesn't have that money, isn't going to be able to come up with that money, and whose entire life has been overtaken over by this case, do you have second thoughts about pushing this?

And everyone is going to have a different answer for that. But politically, I think that's what is going to matter. Is this going to make anybody, candidates, aides, operatives, Donald Trump himself think any differently about pushing lies about the 2020 election? Stephen, what do you think about that?

I mean, here is an actual price as Dan points out for pushing these lies. Does it make people take a step back and also just think about the broader implications and the broader optics, quite frankly, of how this all looks? So I would love to think so. But we heard Rudy Giuliani himself moments after being hit with this decision, $148 million so that he thinks his claims were supportable and that he just wasn't able to make his case.

He's continuing to tell the lies. I guess I'm skeptical that it will have that effect. I mean, if I were working for Donald Trump and I were being asked to peddle these lies and we know from his campaign appearances that the former president is going to continue to campaign on 2020 as a stolen election, he is going to continue to lie about this. And he will expect his surrogates, candidates campaigning on his behalf to say the same thing.

I certainly would be more cautious if he was asking me to tell these lies. Amisha Howard Democrats watching all of this, this is yet another former Trump ally who is facing legal challenges. I think I should have just broke because Giuliani wasn't just an ally. He was the right-hand name.

Not only did he design a landscape, he was someone who went across multiple states, Georgia being probably the most prominent in terms of developing out this plan, this agenda, and specifically attacking poll workers, naming them, calling them out, making up stories. So where are these women literally feared for their lies? We're talking deaf, we're talking people outside of their home, we're talking living in fear because you could not leave even go to the grocery store without people believing that you stole the election. That mattered.

And I think that seeing Giuliani receive a justice, I believe today, it matters. All right. Stay with us, guys. Thank you for being so nimble and responding to that breaking news.

But we do have more to discuss. You are watching me at the press now. Stay with us. The panel continues next.

Welcome back. Turning now to 2024 politics. Alarm bells are sounding for the Biden campaign this week. As multiple polls show the president slipping behind former president Trump in key Midwest states, states that are crucial to Biden's past reelection.

Earlier this week, I took a trip to Michigan to get Democratic voters perspectives on next year's election. And what president Biden needs to do to secure their support in the Midwest, notably while all of the voters I talked to back to president Biden in 2020, most of them were dissatisfied with the idea of having to back him again in 2024. Here's part of our conversation. So show of hands, who is decided on who they're going to vote for in 2024?

Okay. So three out of five of you, when it comes to Democrats, I just don't really see anyone who really feels like they will be a strong pick who is running. I just cannot voting Republican would be voting against myself. So are you saying that you at this point are planning to vote for president Biden, but reluctantly?

Very reluctantly. There's Biden Trump, Biden, the sand is, you know, any Republican, there's no way I'm going to vote Republican. But reluctantly, yes, I will vote Biden. Why reluctantly?

I don't, I really don't agree with his dealings with the Middle East right now that weighs heavy on my heart. I can't support anyone who has a hand in any supporting of genocide. Even though it doesn't personally affect me, it does. I may not be as enthusiastic about him as a candidate, but I am by some of the things that he's done, reducing insulin down to $35, also finally repairing our infrastructure, the American care act.

I mean, it's a lot of things that he's done. And also a lot of it with me goes along to how he supported the first black president. Where does the economy fit into how you are viewing 2024? How do you feel about the economy?

I mean, I don't feel great. I was today, even more shocked, because sometimes I think I put my head in the sand with the economy. I don't like my car. So I was like, Oh, maybe I'll just get a new car.

And I saw these car rates. And I'm like, okay, I'm not getting a new car. Oh, can we start doing something about this? I are the grocery store, but I can eat less.

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, I can eat less. I can't make the car cheaper. The panel is still here with me to break down what we just heard from those voters.

Let me start with you because these are democratic voters. Look, you heard a lot of them are reluctant. Two of them, though, say they're actually undecided. Would they potentially consider a third party candidate?

What do you make of what you just heard from those voters that a lot more groundwork has to be done by the Biden campaign? Michigan is a must win state. It is a state that has that we already knew was going to be a little bit more difficult. There's go around looking at the fact that younger voters are a key or a key demographic in addition to black voters.

The war is not helping him, particularly in Michigan, where you do have a lot of people who are Muslim, a lot of people who are also Palestinian. He is facing, I think, a little bit of trouble there. And he's going to have to do a lot more to showcase what he's doing to make Americans lives easier. He's going to have to showcase a lot more heart and humanitarianism as it relates to the Israeli war.

We've seen him do a little bit of that, but he's got a little bit more. And he's got to really, really ensure that younger people have something to vote or not just something to vote against. They know who Donald Trump is. Stephen, what did you take away from that conversation?

Again, two of those voters were undecided and say they would consider a third party candidate. I mean, there's just so much frustration with a potential Biden-Trump match up. Is this the moment where we could see a third party candidate emerge who actually gets more than 5% of the votes? Yeah, I mean, I think absolutely it is.

If there's a moment that that can happen, it's this moment. Now, given the level of dissatisfaction with the two front runners for the major parties, I thought the exchange at the end was very interesting and very telling on the economy. Obviously, the woman was making a joke about, I can eat less, but I can't not drive. But people are thinking in those terms.

That may not have been literal. Maybe we shouldn't be taking her literally. But people are going to the grocery and they see that their ground beef is 40% more than it was a couple years ago. And they say, oh, jeez, my hamburger helper doesn't go as far as it used to.

And it's a problem. And the Biden team can argue as they have that there are good signs of the economy certainly. The stock market is doing well more recently and they can point to those things. But until people feel it and stop making jokes like that, they're going to have a challenge.

And Dan, that frustration not feeling what the numbers are showing with the economy is fueling that dissatisfaction. But you had an interesting observation, which is dissatisfaction is one thing, but a vote's a vote. Yeah, a reluctant voters count the same as their eager voters. Now, they show up as the question.

I think that exchange, which was great, highlights why Joe Biden's greatest asset is Donald Trump. If he wasn't running against Donald Trump, there might be more interest in some of those women you spoke with to actually vote for Republican candidate. Now, the one thing that I think is undercover about Michigan is it's a key state not only for Biden and Trump and Trump is the nominee, but there's a Senate race there. There is a high profile, number of high profile house races there.

And something that is undercover in my mind is the Democratic party there, the state Democratic party there is one of the most successful in the country is widely seen as one of the best run. And the Michigan Republican party there is on the verge of bankruptcy. Now, that is a not something that you think about all the time, but when it comes to actually getting voters out knocking on doors supporting candidates, that might matter that there's a functional Democratic party and a dysfunctional Republican party. All right, fantastic point.

And it is ultimately all about the turnout we saw in 2016, that party didn't mobilize. That's a lesson that I talked to a lot of Democrats in Michigan. They remember very well, great conversation. Thank you guys, Dan Amicia and Steven.

Still a common new report from the International Rescue Committee warns that Gaza is now the deadliest place in the world for civilians. I'll talk to the head of the IRC about that report and how to help that's next. You're watching me the press now. Back a combination of climate change, armed conflicts and extreme poverty are all threatening to accelerate a worldwide humanitarian crisis in 2024.

That's according to a new report. The International Rescue Committee is out with its annual emergency watch list report of 20 countries, most at risk of an intensifying humanitarian emergency in the new year. And topping that list is Sudan, where a civil war has brought the country near the brink of collapse, followed by the Palestinian territories of Gaza and the West Bank, which the IRC describes as quote, the deadliest place for civilians in the world heading into 2024. Joining me now is the president and CEO of the International Rescue Committee, David Milliban.

Thank you so much for joining me, David. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for giving us some space. Absolutely.

Well, one of the issues that's making the crisis in Gaza, of course, even war dire is the fact that Palestinians have nowhere to go, nowhere to evacuate to. How much do you think it would ease this crisis if countries like Egypt and Jordan were able to actually open their borders and allow in refugees understanding that they are dealing with their own stresses? Yeah, there's a lot of politics in that question, obviously, given the nature of the Middle East conflict. You're certainly right that the density of population in Gaza is one of the things that makes the conduct of the battle so perilous for civilians.

I think a lot of your viewers will be surprised to know that globally, 90% of the people who die in conflict are actually civilians. We were also right to point out that in Sudan, 25 million people in humanitarian need, 6 million according to the UN facing famine, but one and a half million have been able to escape to neighboring states. They've gone to Chad, to the west about 600,000 and 400,000 down to South Sudan. That option isn't open in Gaza.

We have a team in Egypt that are trying to get in to deliver medical aid because that's desperately needed. We have specialism in containment of contagious diseases, but you're right that the density of the severe hazard, both from the bombardment, but also from the disease that goes with the kind of conditions that you're featuring in the pictures. What do you think is most urgently needed in order to help this crisis that we are witnessing unfold? In Gaza.

In Gaza. Yeah. I mean, there are two things that civilians need. They need aid and they need protection from military action.

It's our judgment as a humanitarian agency that the only way to achieve that is through a sustained ceasefire. That's the humanitarian judgment that we've come to on the way from our experience around the world. And it's a humanitarian judgment informed by what happened during the so-called pause in fighting in November. A moniker, a trickle of aid got in, but as soon as the fighting restarted, the aid flows were severely curtailed.

The threats to civilians severely increased. So that's our judgment about the humanitarian imperative and how it's served. And you have said that climate change is also exacerbating these crises. Can you talk about the link there?

And what if anything needs to be done to address that piece of this crisis, both in Gaza and in Sudan? That's a great point. Look, the Gaza crisis is a political crisis, not a climate crisis. But all the 20 countries in the watch list, 14 of them are in the top quartile, the most exposed to climate crisis.

The climate, I don't talk about climate change, I talk about climate crisis in the country where the IRC works. Sudan, South Sudan, prime examples, Yemen as well, Northern Nigeria, where I was last week. These are places where conflict and climate are overlapping. And the climate impact is very clear when you think about it this way.

The climate crisis exacerbates stress on resources. Stress on resources is one of the things that drives conflict. And you can see that across the eight out of 10 African countries that are in our watch list. If you ask, can anything be done, the answer is yes.

Of course, the world has to mitigate climate change by decarbonizing its energy supplies. But in the places where climate crisis is causing conflict, we need to help people adapt to climate change and preserve their resources. Just a very simple example, we've shown in Nigeria, if you give people cash before the flood comes and you can predict it, they'll safeguard their life, they'll safeguard their assets and you begin to contain the impact of the climate change that is already built into the system. And just finally, we know that the Biden administration is having a range of conversations with, of course, the Israeli government, the national security advisor was in Israel this week, meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu.

What is your message to US leaders? What is your message to leaders in Europe, for example, who are on the front lines of the negotiations in terms of what needs to happen to help save civilians? Well, I think the administration has set out the agenda very, very clearly. It's to protect civilians from the fighting, but it's also to get aid to civilians in need, health care, desperately needed emergency water and sanitation, desperately needed support for kids desperately needed.

So the amelioration of the situation is very clear and the Heron Shalom announcement that you've covered is part of that. All right, David Millivan, thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Zaman.

And thank you for being with us this hour. We'll be back Monday with more Meet the Press now. And if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press on your local NBC News station. I'll have exclusive interviews with Congresswoman Debbie Dingle and Senator Lindsey Graham.

The news continues with Tom Castello in for Holly Jackson right now.