Meet the Press NOW — December 9

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I'm Kristen Welker in Washington. We are following multiple breaking news stories at this hour. Plus, we have much more. For my exclusive one on one interview with President Elect Donald Trump.

We spoke for nearly 90 minutes about his plans for the next four years, including mass deportations and the possibility of going after his political rivals. Plus, we'll bring you what he told most controversial Cabinet pics Tulsi Gabard and RFK Jr. But we begin with breaking news. Authorities say they have a strong person of interest in custody in connection with the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Police now identifying that person as Luigi Mangioni, who was arrested on gun charges earlier today at McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, where an employee said he was acting suspiciously. Police say they found evidence suggesting he is the man they were looking for after last week's deadly shooting in midtown Manhattan. The suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport. Upon further investigation, officers recovered a firearm on his person as well as a suppressor, both consistent with the weapon used in the murder.

They also recovered clothing, including a mask consistent with those worn by our wanted individual. Police say they also found a fake New Jersey ID matching the ID the suspect used to check into a New York City hostel before the shooting. NBC News has also obtained a photo of this gun found on Mangioni, a law enforcement official telling us it appears to be similar to the weapon used in last week's Manhattan shooting. Now, to be clear, Manjoni has not been charged in connection with Thompson's death.

But today's developments come after an exhaustive five day manhunt that included surveillance photos of the suspected killer, as well as a search on land and in water for evidence that would lead to the killer's arrest. NBC News law enforcement intelligence correspondent Tom Winters has been covering this story since last week's shooting. He joins me now. Tom, this is a significant development.

What do we know about this person of interest? Well, Hugh Tristan I mean, at 9:14 this morning, this individual had been traveling from Philadelphia, we were told by multiple senior law enforcement officials and is spotted in this McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania, central part of the state. Are probably both familiar to politics reporters like your. And then this individual in the process of being spotted by McDonald's employee, she calls 911.

The Altoona Police arrive and they've got some questions. In the course of those questions and of course looking through his materials, they get to a point where they believe that they have a gun that may have been used in this killing. They believe that they have that fake ID you just showed us. They believe that they have a three page written note that may help with respect to motivation if they ultimately charge him on the gunpoint alone.

That's enough of a Pennsylvania state law. It's a ghost gun. It was made at home by somebody. We don't know whether it was this individual or by somebody else.

But just the fact that they have it, you're looking at it there, means that they can place local charges on him. That'll start the clock on any potential further charges for the nypd. You know, Tom, it's interesting because police say that they found a handwritten manifesto on Mangioni that would explain a possible motive. And he wore exactly what was in that manifesto.

So as far as Chief of Detectives Joe Kennedy would go bas saying, look, he was speaking out against corporate America. I think as the details come into clarity over the next couple hours and days, it may have been a lot more specific to the individuals that could have been involved in this case. We'll just have to see what comes out. But I think there's a lot in there.

There'll be a lot in there that'll help investigators. That's the indication we have from senior law enforcement officials. It might also help with any potential charges present. So let's pick up right there, Tom, what charges are you tracking as a possibility if Mangioni is in fact charged in this case?

What should we be watching for? Right, I'm looking down because you never know when to come in. And they could come in real time. The YPD arrived at approximately 3:15 Eastern time along with Manhattan DA's office.

So this really would start to become the window when we would think we might see something. Charges will be filed in penny to keep him into custody on the gun that they feel strongly about. Then comes the potential charges to be filed in Manhattan. There would be an extradition proceeding again if he's charged and then he would be brought back here, presumably for anybody.

Capt this I'm not going to speak specifically to the, to the individual that's in custody now. Luigi Mangione. Homicide charges just on its face. And there could be a whole slew of other charges.

Whoever this person was that was responsible for the shooting. All right, Tom Winter, we know you are always checking your phone. You're always working every angle. Thank you so much for joining us.

We really appreciate it. We want to turn now to the stunning collapse of the Assad regime in Syria and growing concerns about a potential power vacuum. In just a matter of days, rebel forces captured city after city, marching toward Damascus and seizing control of the capital. Take a look.

These are images out of Damascus of crowds gathering in the city center, waving flags while standing on deserted army tanks, shooting off celebratory gunfire and toppling the statue of the ousted leader. It comes after the brutal deter Bashar al Assad relinquished his presidency over the weekend, fleeing to Moscow where Russia has granted him asylum. Now, while there's jubilation on the ground in Syria, many major questions remain unanswered, including who will now rule the country and how. President Biden yesterday signaling the US Will help to stabilize the region.

At long last, the Assad regime has fallen. This regime brutalized and tortured and killed literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Syrians. The fall of the regime is a fundamental act of justice. As we all turn to the question of what comes next, the United States will work with our partners and stakeholders in Syria to help them seize an opportunity.

Another major concern looming over Syria's future is the status of the country's chemical weapon sites, which the Assad regime has used against its own people. Israel confirming it has launched a ground incursion into Syrian territory to ensure those chemical and biological weapons do not fall into the wrong hands. With President elect Trump set to return to the White House in just a matter of weeks, the future of Syria will be a major flashpoint for the incoming administration. I spoke with the president elect just one day before the fall of the Assad regime.

The Syrian rebels were closing in on Damascus, and he acknowledged the historic nature of this moment. Look, sir, there is incredible unrest in Syria. Do you think that Bashar al Assad could fall? Well, you know, it's amazing because he stayed for years under, you would think, much more adverse conditions and all of a sudden just rebels are going and taking over large pieces of territory.

I don't think it's looking very good for him. Who would have thought that was going to happen? Because for 10 years. I mean, the guy was fighting all odds, and all of a sudden, it's like people were just taking over his country.

So I don't know. People have bet against him for a long time, and so far that hasn't worked. But this seems to be different. The latest development in Syria also reigniting scrutiny of Mr.

Trump's pick to be Director of National Security. Tulsi Gabbard, who was on Capitol Hill today meeting with senators as she tries to push her nomination forward. Gabbard is facing criticism over her past sympathetic statements towards the Assad regime and her secret trip to Syria in 2017 to meet with the dictator. But President elect Trump told me he still has confidence in his pick.

Let me ask you about four. Congressman Tulsi Gardbert, you picked her to be the Director of national intelligence in 2017. She had two secret meetings with Syrian dictator Bashar Al Assad. Do you have questions or concerns about those meetings?

No. And he's got bigger problems right now. Do you think it makes it hard for her? I mean, do you think it compromises?

I met with President Xi of China. I met with Kim Jong Un twice when you were president. People meet. All these people meet.

I mean, I see some of the most dishonest people. I'll tell you, the 51 agents that said that the laptop, it wasn't from Hunter, it was from Russia. What about them? Tell me about them.

Do you think they did something wrong? Do you think they were all so stupid that they thought that the laptop from hell. You have confidence in Tulsi Gabbard? I do.

I mean, she's a very respected person with multiple crises in the Middle East. I also asked President elect Trump about the remaining hostages being held in Gaza and whether he will pressure Prime Minister Netanyahu to end the war with Hamas. Do you still think that the hostages are alive? I'm not a big believer in the fact that there are too many of them living, sadly, because I've seen the way they've been treated.

I mean, I hate to say it, I think you have far fewer hostages than people think. Really? Tell me my opinion. I've been writing just about everything.

Are you going to pressure Prime Minister Netanyahu, with whom you have a very good relationship, to end the war in Gaza? Yeah, sure. And have you already started that process? I want to end it, but you gotta have a victory.

For more on the very latest in Syria, NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel filed this report from Damascus as Syrian civilians celebrated the end of half a century of Assad, family rule. People are gathering from all over the country here in the center of Damascus, and there is just this amazing environment. Everyone is happy. People are handing out candy.

Of course, there's a lot of celebratory gunfire in the air. And this is perhaps a symbol of what has transpired nearly for the last two weeks, really. This is a tank, government tank, that was abandoned because the army, the army of Bashar al Assad, ultimately decided when faced with a rebel advance, not to fight. We've seen uniforms that have just been discarded on the streets.

This tank harp here, people climbing on top of it, taking pictures of themselves, celebrating this moment, remembering what it was all about. Some people told me this is the greatest day of their life. With that said, one young man did come up to me a little bit worried. He said, what do you think is going to happen?

He's asking me, what do you think is going to happen in this country? Do you think we're going to be able to hold it together, or is there going to be factual fighting? Is there going to be fighting among the rebel groups, whether terrorism? So along with the mood of joy and celebration, there is some trepidation.

But I would say publicly, overwhelmingly, there is a sense of relief because for the last 10 years, over 10 years, the civil war in this country has been one of the most brutal on the entire planet. There are secret prisons all over this city, all over this country. And right now, right now, rebels are going into them. They are trying to find people who've been locked away in these torture dungeons for years.

Some people are missing. They don't know where they are. So they're seeing if they perhaps are hidden in some of these underground facilities. This is a time of exploration.

People say that for the first time in their lives, because Bashar al Assad and his father before him have ruled this country with iron fist for over half a century. People say for the first time in their lives, they're able to express themselves. And that word where we keep hearing over and over and over again, it is Arabic for freedom. And people here say they finally have a taste of it.

Just extraordinary reporting from our Richard Engel on the ground in Syria. For more on all of this, I'm joined now by Matt Bradley in Beirut. Gabe Gutierrez, this is the White House. And I'm also joined by Elise Lab, Edward R.

Murrow, press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. Thanks to all of you for being here, for helping us unpack what is unfolding in Syria right now. Matt, let me start with You. You are there in the region, what is the mood?

Yeah, I mean, what we're seeing here, Lebanon, of course, is different things for different people, as is always the case. Behind me, in the area of Dahia, we were hearing gunfire earlier today. There hasn't been a real fighting here for several weeks, ever since the peace treaty between Hezbollah and the Israelis. But there still is in this neighborhood a lot of sympathy for Hezbollah, which intervened in the war in Syria to back the regime of Bashar Al Assad.

So the fall of that regime and the humiliation of the backers, the Iranians who backed up the Assad regime and Hezbollah here is something that's going to be felt not just within Syria, but also here in Lebanon. But for the 1.5 million Syrian refugees who have been here in Lebanon for the better part of the past decade, this is a big moment that they've been waiting for, a moment of celebration. Indeed. They're already flooding across the border back home to Syria.

What they'll find when they're there, that's anybody's guess. Well, and that takes me to my next question. Who exactly are these rebels who toppled the regime and speak about the uncertainty around them? Yeah.

Well, the main rebel group is Hayat Tahira Sham. And this is a group that's loosely translated as the Committee for the Liberation of the Levantin. This is a group that has connections to Al Qaeda and the Islamic State that they've since disavowed over the past several years. The leader of this group, Abdul Muhammad Al Julani, he has since changed his name from his war name, his Noam Nagare, to his real name as Ahmad Al Shah.

This is a man who has been making very positive noises for the past several years about his intentions to govern with inclusivity, with liberalness, with a sense of, you know, reaching out beyond serious borders, trying to appeal to the international community, aid organizations, advocacy groups, all the people who are not going to look too well on a listed terrorist as Al Jelwani is, by the United States, by Israel, by several other countries, including Turkey, a country that backs his allies in this fight to take down Damascus and take down the Assad regime. So whether or not this man actually lives up to the ideals he's been preaching for the past several years, whether he rules in a way that a lot of people throughout the world find acceptable and are willing to give money to or willing to support, give political cover to, that is, again, another major question. I can tell you. There are a lot of minority groups, a lot of religious minorities, Ethnic minorities, different languages within Syria.

This is a cosmopolitan place with a patchwork of different identities. Governing it has already proven extremely difficult. That's one of the reasons why there was this blistering 13 year long civil war that killed so many people. Whether or not it's going to take a man like him to do it.

Well, we just saw today that he points to prime minister for the interim period for the first time. This is the prime minister who had ruled over HTS's Hayatavir Sham's own dominion in northwest Syria before this lightning advance. So this is a man who has experience being the prime minister, whether or not he can take that experience of governing that small enclave in northwest Syria to this entire huge country of Syria. Again, another question we can't answer right now.

All right. Well, Matt Bradley, thank you so much for being on top of everything that is unfolding. I really appreciate it. Let me turn to you.

We did hear from President Biden, the White House yesterday. He said the US will help ensure stability in eastern Syria. What are the administration's biggest concerns right now? What are officials they're telling you?

Hi there, Chris Temple, Certainly instability is a big concern and also the resurgence of terror. But I want to pick up on part of your interview with President Elect Trump. He seemed surprised by the fall of the Assad regime or at least saying that it happened all of a sudden. Certainly officials here at the White House maybe surprised by the speed of which this happened, but they say that this was no accident.

And they point to the Biden administration' policy on a number of different fronts that contributed to the fall of the Assad regime, including the US backing Israel and its conflict with Iranian proxies in in Lebanon, securing a ceasefire with the Lebanese government and the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. Of course, the US's continued support of Ukraine in its war against Russia. And the Biden administration believes that all those factors played into a weakened Bashar al Assad and allowed these rebels to go in and topple his regime. And on that very point, Gabe, the US launched strikes into Syria yesterday, hitting 75 different targets.

What can you tell us about that? Well, certainly a huge number of strikes, 75 different sites throughout Syria. And that goes to what the White House is trying to do is prevent the resurgence of ISIS in Syria. Certainly on the same day where we were learning the full extent of what was going on in that country after we learned that Bashar al Assad had finally left the Moscow.

It was then that the US administration decided to go ahead with these airstrikes and send a very clear message that they do not want ISIS or other terrorist groups to resurge in Syria. And before I let you go, the president made some really stunning comments yesterday. He said he believes Austin Tice is still alive. Austin Tice, who was captured in Syria years ago.

What do you know about this? What is leading him to make this assessment? Certainly that comment did raise my eyebrows here at the White House yesterday, Kristen, but it also follows Austin Tyson's parents who had said late last week that they believe that he was still alive. So at this point, we don't have any indication on what exactly changed in the US Assessment.

More of Austin Tyson's relatives spoke to my colleague Andrew Mitchell earlier today and they said they couldn't talk about how they had that information that he was still alive. But the FBI still is offering a huge reward for his release. Kristen, you know as well as anyone, the President of the United States usually doesn't say something that definitive. They believe he's still alive unless they have really good intelligence that he is, that the PAIS is.

And right now the White House says that they are doing everything they can, including sending a U.S. special envoy to the region to try and bring him back home. Just an extraordinary development. Nik Gutierrez at the White House for us.

Thank you so much. Elise, let me turn to you now. You and I have been texting throughout the weekend as these developments have been evolving in Syria. No one understands this region better than you.

Put this into perspective for us. What does this mean for the balance of power in the Middle East, Kristen? It's a tectonic shift in the region. I mean, we've been saying that for the past couple of months, right, when you know, Israel killed the leaders of Hamas and then the leader of Hezbollah.

And there's just been so much action and killing of these massive leaders and these move of dynamics in the region. But I would say that the ouster of Bashar al Assad after close to 25 years is just remarkable. I mean, I think what it does two major things, right? It denies this land bridge from Iran into Lebanon and that's to attack Israel, which is its main goal.

And then also what it does is it really diminishes Russian influence in the region. Syria has a huge base and it was a major piece of Russian influence. So two big enemies or, you know, adversaries of the U.S. russia and particularly Iran, very big blows right now.

And we have called to Council on Foreign Relations with a lot of people talking about how can the US And Israel but most how can the US Capitalize on this grand moment? And I think it's going to be really interesting to see whether, you know, when the Trump administration comes in and you spoke to President Trump about this recently, will there be a new dynamic in the region where the Trump admin administration works with Israel to go after Iran because it's never been weaker? It is going to be such a fascinating question as we watch what happens over these next few months at least. And of course, you have President Elect Trump saying that the United States should not get involved, President Biden saying that the United States will help to stabilize Syria.

Two very different approaches. How could this play out depending on whether or not the US Engages? Well, when you talk to experts, they say they'd like to take some of what Trump said and some of what the Biden administration is saying and put them together. The US has about 900 troops in Syria, and that's primarily a counter ISIS delegate force.

And you kind of want to keep that because as we've been discussing, there's a lot of concern about these ties to Islamic groups and whether HTS is going to be able to fill that power vacuum and turn away from terrorism and turn away from those Islamic links. So you kind of want the US to stay in the region in that particular way to fight isis. The US doesn't want to get in the middle of a civil war, but if you leave it to external powers like Turkey that's been supporting them or Qatar or The gulf, without U.S. involvement, that could jeopardize the security of the region.

So the US still really needs to help, you know, give birth to a transitional government, not get involved in the players themselves, but be able to provide that support, make sure that there's not a resurgence of terrorism like we saw after the wars in Iraq and Libya. When there's a power vacuum, that's when terrorists come in and they start. You know, we've had a lot of ISIS cells form that way. So the US Wants to make sure that it's working with its allies, but at the same time, President Trump is right that it doesn't want to put its thumb on the scale.

So I do think you'll see the US Involved, but I don't think you'll see it involved to the extent that it has been in previous years in a civil war, at least just very quickly pick up on the point that Matt Bradley was making about the background of HTS and why that. And you were just speaking to it there. But why that is adding to the uncertainty and concerns about what could happen in these coming months. Well, this guy that is leading hds, Abu Mohammed Al Ghulani, yes, he's changed his name and yes, he's put on a nice suit and looks very good and speaks a very moderate tone.

But the question is, can this guy that used to be a card carrying terrorist now be a leader of a Middle Eastern country and govern inclusively and not, you know, be able to consolidate his power in a way that is inclusive, that doesn't let other terrorist groups come in? I think a lot of fears are that. But Syria, which has so many different factions is going to be kind of like Lebanon with different Islamists, different warlords. And that's the big concern right now.

Can HTS consolidate his power and govern inclusively for a stable Syria? Well, there are so many questions. It is so complicated. Elise, love it.

Thank you so much. Come back again soon. We will be tracking this. Really appreciate it.

Coming up we'll have much more of my exclusive wide ranging interview with the president elect straight ahead. Including his valid party sixth defendants on day one of his second term and his desire to put members of the House alect committee on January 6th in jail will delve into all of that. You're watching me the press now try off in a new Hyundai Launcher today with $0 down during the Hyundai Advantage sales event. Take advantage of the $1,000 spring drive bonus and lease the 2026 lingerie essential which has seven $3 a week at 4.99 for 60 months.

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Turning now to more news making moments for my sit down with President elect Donald Trump. I asked him about our reporting that President Biden is weighing preemptive pardons for some people who have clashed with Mr. Trump, including Senator elect Adam Schiff who said to be sworn in today and former Congressman Liz Cheney. As part of his response, the president elect lashed out at the January 6 committee accusing it of unfairly targeting him and even destroying its records, which the committee denies.

Cheney was behind it. So was Benny Thompson and everybody on that committee. We're gonna for what they did. Honestly, they should go to jail.

So you think Liz Chase should go to jail for what? Everyone on the committee, anybody that voted. Are you going to director, FBI director and your attorney general to send them to jail? I don't know.

I think that they'll have to look at that. But I'm not going to. I'm going to focus on drill, baby, drill. And again, committee member say his allegations are categorically false.

Today, Senator Elect Schiff told MSNBC the committee stands by its work and that the president elects claims are, quote, baseless attacks. And in a statement, former Congressman Liz Cheney calling Trump's accusations, quote, ridiculous and false. Also in our interview, I asked the president, like, if he plans to follow through on his campaign promise to pardon individuals who attacked the Capitol on January 6, including the more than 900 people pleaded guilty to crimes. I'm gonna look at everything we'll look at in different places.

Yeah. But I'm going to be acting very quickly. Day within your first 100 days. First day, first day.

First day. These people have been, how long is it? Three, four years? You know, by the way, they've been in there for years, and they're in a filthy, disgusting place that shouldn't even be allowed to be open.

Let's bring in some of our NBC News correspondence. Garrett Hay is covering the Trump transition and Ali Rafa is covering the White House. Garrett, let's talk about what we just heard there. A little bit of a gray area from President Elect Trump when it comes to what should happen to his political enemies.

He said he believes those on the January six committee should be in jail without providing any evidence of what any crime they committed. On the other hand, I asked him pretty directly, does he think that his attorney general, his FBI director, should go after his political enemies? He said that's going to be up to them if they find wrongdoing. What did you hear?

Yeah, because I didn't hear gray. I heard a big, flashing green light from Donald Trump. Whenever I hear the interview like this, I go back to Michael Cohen's testimony on the Hill five, six years ago. Now, we're talking about the way that Donald Trump gives orders.

And it's not that he gives orders directly. It just think it's very clear what he wants to see happen. That's exactly what I heard in your interview. I didn't hear him say, no, I didn't hear him say, these officials will have better things to do than go investigate my enemies.

I heard you ask him several times if he thinks there should be consequences, basically. And I heard him essentially say, yeah, if they can find it. It sounded more like a dare to me, then wave off. Now, the problem for Trump is he doesn't even posit or suggest what crime he thinks any of his political enemies might have committed against him.

There's nothing illegal about conducting a congressional investigation, even one that's purely politically motivated. There's nothing illegal about how the Jan. 6 Community Committee handled its records. There is no crime even suggested in here, just the fact that Trump does not like these people and wants to see them punished somehow.

Now, if you're Adam Schiff or Liz Cheney, I hope your taxes are in order. I hope you don't have anything sort of separate that you're concerned about. Because what I heard the bottom line here, Kristen, is an invitation to a Trump administered law enforcement agencies to go and look around and see what you can find in the backgrounds of any of these people who might have, you know, pursued various investigations in him during this tenure afterwards. Well, I pick up on that point because as Garrett's been making all these points, we know that the president is considering, the White House is considering preemptive pardons for people like Adam Schiff and Liz Cheney.

What are administration officials telling you about where that all stands? Yeah, Kristen, this is an especially tricky position for this White House, especially after we saw President Biden pardon his son Hunter earlier this month and shortly after that happened, we saw President Elect Trump use that as sort of a justification for his desire to go in part in these January 6th rioters after he takes office. So Hunter's party definitely provided ammunition for Trump and his allies. And there are even fears that the president Elect could go after President Biden himself once he takes office.

I thought it was particularly notable in that interview that you did with the president electron asking whether he would point a special prosecutor or special counsel to people to do that. And he said that he's not interested in going into the past. He said success will be his retribution. But as we continue hearing about retribution from Trump, from his allies, we know that the White House is privately considering issuing these pre emptive pardons for allies of the president that President Elect Trump has publicly criticized in some cases for years now.

One of them, as you mentioned, being Liz Cheney, Adam schiff and reportedly Dr. Anthony Fauci. TRUMP saying that he wants to to imprison not just Liz Cheney, but all January 6th committee members. But there, Chris, there are a lot of open questions about this possibility.

First of all, we don't know if any of them have gone to the White House, approached the White House asking for this. I fear this could happen. We also don't know whether they would accept it. I think Schiff was one that said that he wouldn't.

He didn't want this to happen. We haven't heard the same from Cheney or Fauci or others being considered. And we also don't know how sweeping or how broad this list could be. It's also a somewhat controversial move because issuing a pardon implies that some crime had been committed.

And none of the people being considered have committed crimes or even been investigated for committing those crimes. So something like this with good intentions could possibly backfire and possibly have some bad side effects. It's a really important point. Ali Garrett, let me go back to you and ship gears a little bit.

Let's talk about one of the big campaign promises of President Elect Trump, his mass deportation plan. I pressed him on this. Take a look at your reaction on the other side. You raised the point that the logistics are complicated.

You say to yourself, yeah, you gave me 24 times more eyes detention capacity just to deport 1 million people per year, not to mention more agents or judges, more plains. Is it realistic to deport everyone? You have no choice. First of all, they're costing us a fortune.

But we're starting with criminals, and we gotta do it. And then we're starting with others, and we're gonna see how it goes. Who are the others? Others or other people outside of criminals?

We have convicted murders. We don't mean people that are even on trial. We have people that have murdered numerous people on our streets and in our farms, and we have to get them out of our country. Gary, he also notably said he was willing to work with Democrats to try to get a deal for dreamers to stay here.

What did you make of his comments on immigration? Yeah, those comments on dreamers, by the way, greeted very skeptically on Capitol Hill today by Democrats who remember trying to work with Donald Trump to exact just such a deal during the first administration and having the Trump White House repeatedly kind of pull the rug out from under them on nasty board cases. I think this is a recurring problem for Donald Trump, which is he cannot switch the scale of what he wants to do in terms of deportations with not going back to a family separation policy, which he clearly wants to try to avoid, knowing the political problems it costs for him the first time and the logistics of doing what he wants to do in a short period of time with limited money and limited kind of availability of Congress. Act quickly to help him.

I think the idea of pursuing criminals and going after people who already have deportation orders, Donald Trump will find relatively little resistance to that. I think that will be conceived as broadly popular. I think it will probably be very quickly funded, and I think it'll be an urgency to do that, at least by Republicans. But after you get past perhaps the first million people he wants to target, this only gets harder and harder.

And it's not clear that he has a plan for how to pursue, you know, day 200 plus, if you will. Yeah, the logistics are just so incredibly complicated. As you say, rates very expensive. Estimated $1 trillion per year potentially.

Garrett and Ali, great reporting. Thank you for helping us unpack all of that. We really appreciate it. Coming up next with the president elect told me about RFK Jr and childhood vaccines, plus his meeting with pharmaceutical leaders on lowering prescription drug prices.

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Listen daily on Spotify. Welcome back. As part of my exclusive interview with President Elect Trump, I asked him about Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

His pick to run Department of Health and Human Services. RFK Jr. Has faced criticism for his long held anti vaccine activism and for publicly espousing discredited assertions that vaccines are linked to autism. Here's that part of my conversation that the president left.

Let me ask you about RFK Jr. He has obviously talked about his skepticism of vaccines. He's expressed opposition to childhood Vaccines. Do you want to see childhood vaccines eliminated if they're dangerous for the children?

Look, so possibly when you look at some of the problems, when you look at what's going on with disease and sickness in our country, something's wrong. Are you talking about autism? Well, if you take a look at autism, you go back 25 years, autism was almost non existent. It was, you know, one out of a hundred thousand, and now it's close to one out of a hundred.

Well, I mean, what, what's happening if they can find it now? I did something the other night that was a little unusual at Mar a Lago. I called the drug companies, the top drug companies, and I called RFK Jr and Dr. Oz and some of his people and I said, let's all get together and let's figure out where we're going because we're gonna do a lot of things.

Number one, we're gonna reduce prices because the middleman makes more money than the drug companies. In all fairness to the drug companies, there's a middleman that nobody even knows who they are. And you look at our drug prices, they're much higher than the prices for the same medicine, for the same stuff. So we met and we met for a long time and we talked about pricing and we talked about vaccines.

You know, in terms of what happens. We talked about pesticides, we talked about everything. And I think a lot of good things are going to come from him. And he's, he's not going to upset any system.

He's not going to upset this. He's not looking to, you know, to reinvent the wheel totally. But when you look at the numbers, we really don't have a very healthy country, sir. Going back 25 years, studies show that there is no link between vaccines and autism.

Yet it sounds like you are open to the possibility of him looking. I think somebody has to find out. If you go back 25 years ago, you had really autism, now you have it. Well, they say because they're better at identifying it.

1 in 100,000 and now it's 1 in 100. That's, that's a pretty bad number child of vaccines. I mean, something is going on. I don't know if it's vaccines.

Maybe it's, maybe it's chlorine in the water. Right. You know, people are looking at a lot of different things, you know, childhood vaccines, everything. So childhood vaccines have prevented about 4 million deaths around the world every year.

I think it's great. I'm all for it. I think it's Great. Hey, look, I'm not against vaccines.

The polio vaccine is the greatest thing. If somebody told me, get rid of the polio vaccine, you're going to have to work real hard to convince me. I think vaccines are certain vaccines are incredible, but maybe some aren't. And if they aren't, we have to find out.

But when you talk about autism, because it was brought up and you look at the amount we have today versus 20 or 25 years ago, it's pretty scary. Well, then scientists say that's because it's better at identifying it. And there's no link in the drug companies are going to be working with RFK Jr. And he's, you know, he's, he's been an interesting guy to me.

I've watched him for 25 years and he's been an interesting guy. I'm joined now by Dr. Richard Besser, former acting director of the CDC. He's now president and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

Dr. Besser, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Kristen.

It's great to be here. Well, if you can, it's great to have you here. Help give some context to part of the conversation you just heard from President Elect Trump. He talks about the fact that the rates of autism have increased over the past quarter of a century.

I made the point that that is because scientists say they've gotten better at identifying it. Can you give us more context, though? Yeah, I mean, first, let's make sure we're talking about the right number. So in the year 2000, the rate of autism was 1 in 150 children, not 1 in 100,000.

And most recent data says that the rate of autism is 1 in 36 children. So it is on the rise. And the, that you, you put to him and then you, you shed some light on. A lot of this has to do with how autism is diagnosed.

This isn't the condition where there's a blood test or an X ray and you say, okay, this child has, has autism. There are criteria for that. And over time, the ability to, to diagnose and identify children who are on the autism spectrum has improved. And in many states, there are services that are tied to that diagnosis.

And so you've seen some increase with that as well. But I do think it is important to do research to understand rates of autism and the rise in autism. But I think it's absolutely cruel to lift up time and time again the false conjecture that these rates of autism have anything to do with vaccines in the year 2004. The Institute of Medicine, which is an independent body, looked at this over the course of more than a year, analyzed all the hundreds of studies and concluded there's no connection between vaccines and autism.

And I practiced pediatrics for more than 30 years. I can tell you there's nothing that I did for my patients that has more proven value than making sure they were vaccinated fully and on time. And to keep putting into parents minds this idea that wealthy vaccinate their children, it could cause autism is absolutely cruel. And it takes the resources that could go around finding better, better treatments and better, better ways of diagnosing autism away from, from that, from.

Because they're going into an area that's, that's already been settled. Dr. Besser, you heard President Trump say two things. One, that if RFK Jr.

Is confirmed that he should look into childhood vaccines. He also said he's not going to upset any, any system. What did you make of his comments and should there be any type of, is there a kind of a hard looking taking the childhood vaccines broadly not because of the concerns the President Elect raises, but in general to make sure they continue to be up to date? Yeah, you know, we have one of the best vaccine approval systems in the world.

And so the efforts that are undertaken before any vaccine is, is approved for use in children or adults is, is incredible. And then for CDC to then review that independent advisory committee makes the recommendation as to whether they should be used. And so, you know, to have someone in the position as Secretary of Health and Human Services who has done more than just about anyone to undermine the confidence that parents can have, have in vaccination is really frightening. There are so many talented people who could be in that role who could truly advance health in America.

To have someone who continues to put up these theories that have already been disproven means that we will not advance in the way that we could around other health issues. He did talk about the fact that he also wants RFK Jr to focus on trying to bring down drug prices. You heard the President Elect say he'd been in touch with pharmaceutical companies. Is that something that the HHS secretary can, has the authority to impact?

How does that work and what do you make of that aspect of what we heard from the President Elect? Yeah, I think that's great. We have a real issue in America with drug prices where drugs here cost a lot more than they do in other wealthy, wealthy nations. There is the opportunity to impact on that One of the other areas that the department is responsible for is the center for Medicare Medicaid Services there.

There's been a lot of efforts over the years to try and allow Medicare to negotiate drug prices. That's very helpful. So having a secretary who's interested in that is terrific. The idea that we have to accept someone who is pushing back on vaccines in order to get that is challenging.

And there are a number of things that Mr. Kennedy has lit it up that are important issues for us to address. But I really worry about having that microphone there and being able to discredit vaccines, even though most of those recommendations come from the state. Having, having the disinformation, the falsehoods coming from the federal government will undermine people's confidence.

Dr. Richard Besser, thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate it. It thank you, Kristen.

Still ahead, I asked President Elect Trump if he'll follow through on his promise to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate President Biden once he's in office. We'll bring you his answer. Next to meet the President. Welcome back.

One of the biggest questions looming over a second Trump administration is whether or not the president elect will make good on his campaign promise to go after his political rivals, including President Biden. I asked Mr. Trump about a post on social media he made threatening to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the president. The president elect seemed to backtrack, saying he's not looking to go back into the past and his retribution will be his success.

Here's what he told me. Look, you wrote on True Social in 2023 that you're going to point a real special prosecutor go after Joe Biden. Now you're saying you're not going to do that. I will say this.

No, I'm not doing that unless I find something that I think is reasonable. But that's not going to be my decision. That's going to be Bambondi's decision and to a different extent, Keshe Patel, assuming they're both there, I think they're both going to get approved. Joining me now on set is Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for the New York Times Maria Theresa Kumar, president and CEO of Voter Latino and Daniel Pletka, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute.

And they are all NBC News political contributors. Thanks to all of you for being here on a big Monday. Peter, let me start off with you. What did you make of that exchange that you just heard from President Elect Trump?

Well, I mean, take away, of course, right? I remember 2016. He led cheers at his rallies by hook and saying, lock her up, lock her up. Then he came to visit your Times after the election.

We asked him the exact same question. Essentially, he just asked him this weekend and he said, no, no, I'm not interested in doing that. But then again in the next four years, periodically he in fact tried to get his just harder to do. So it depends on his moment and his mood right now.

Obviously he's in a good mood. He just won election. He doesn't feel the need necessarily to vow retribution. But he did tell you, of course, he still thinks that L.

Cheney should go to jail. So he's not exactly and completely, you know, forgiven, forget kind of mode. Now, what did you make of that and the fact that there was a little bit of mixed messaging that we heard as it relates to retribution? I mean, I think as we've all said, Donald Trump is much more comfortable in his skin.

He's fundamentally going to be a lame duck president. He's in his last term no matter what. So. And he seems much more philosophical.

So I thought his response on Biden was in that vein on the places where he's really still very angry. Liz Cheney falls into that category and he reverts back to the previous Donald Trump. I suspect he's not going to do anything in either case. But yes, he feels vindictive towards people who he believes went after him.

Maria Theresa one of the exchanges that really stood out was he said he does in fact plan to issue pardons for those who've been convicted of crimes related to gender six, including this, of 900 people who have pleaded guilty to various crimes. What did you think of that? He said that's a day one priority. That's part of the promise that he gave to individuals who said, if you vote for me, then I'm going to basically absolve you and I'm going to pardon you.

And this is where the tension between what he is saying and the Justice Department and trying to make sure that it's not centralized under his power, where we should really look very closely, the full scrutiny. And I do think, Peter, when you look at what he says, even about whether or not he's going to have to Biden, it depends how well he's implementing the rest of his agenda. Because one of the things that we know that Donald Trump knows how to do very well is smoke and mirrors. The moment something is going awry on his agenda, he'll say, go look over here and it could be Biden.

Let's talk about his agenda. We talked about the economy. We talked about his plans for Nazi protection. Richard Teresa he said yes, he plans to focus on the criminal source.

He does plan to deport everyone. Families of mixed immigration status. The idea would be to send them back together. But then he said, yes, he wants to work with Democrats on a deal to allow dreamers to stay here.

Here's the thing. It's almost impossible to identify folks that have committed a crime. It's almost impossible to look. It's literally like a needle in the haystack.

If you talk from folks from ACLU on down, the only way, oh my goodness, after all these years, it's gone. So one of the things that we do know is that the only way you can implement that is by going into work side rates. That's going to disrupt not just the workforce of these individuals, but whole companies. And I do think that right now what we're seeing is that companies are kind of doing a wait and see.

But the way you can bring a lot of companies into this conversation around immigration is if you couple it with the tariffs that they're planning on in place. Because all of a sudden you have a massive disruption, not just on employers, on their ability to actually sell product. And I do think that you're going to see a space for companies to be able to get involved that we have not seen yet. What do you make of that, Maria Theresa saying, look, for Donald Trump, tariffs are everything.

They are the coin of the realm for him, and so they give him leverage on everything. I suspect that when he comes down to the reality of the logistics of deporting a large number of people, they're going to make efforts. They're going to try and go after criminals. People who've already been convicted, for example, people who are known convicts have come in who have been identified by border police, border security, etc.

But yeah, he's going to have a harder time doing the things he wants to do. The one thing I'll say is that that message at the outset obviously will slow illegal immigration into the country, as will the dialogue he has with Canada and Mexico. The thing is that when the president of Mexico came out and said, look, we have already had a backroom deal with President Biden and you actually saw the influx of immigrants go down by 75%. That, and I do think that the challenge with Donald Trump is recognizing that when they cut the deal saying no more China, the deal with corporations was, okay, so nearshore in Mexico.

Yeah, Peter, it was so notable that in addition to acknowledging just how complicated the logistics of a massive potential thing would be, he did say he was open to potentially trying to cut a deal with Democrats. He dreamers here. But is that realistic in this Congress? Is that something you can actually see happening?

Well, yes, but it could have happened in the last term too. Right. He could have cut this deal the last time around. He said similar things at times.

Right. He was sympathetic to people who were brought in as children. They had no role in coming to the country illegally. Many of them have been here, as he pointed out to you, many years.

They don't speak the language of their home country. They are middle aged and often usually tax paying productive citizens. So he had expressed sympathy for them in the past. At the same time his administration went to the Supreme Court trying to overturn President Obama's order to protect them argument it was unconstitutional.

Supreme Court disagree on procedural rounds. So if he wants a deal, obviously Democrats are there to cut a deal with if they actually want to. But there's compromise to be had. He might not want to give up what he has to give up in order to get that compromise.

Peter, the other I think big headline at least for me was the fact that there is going to be not a surprise but a big shift in foreign policy. He did open the door to pulling out of NATO. He did say yes Ukraine should expect less money. He did say he's trying to get a deal to end the war in Ukraine.

And of course all of his consists we're watching what's happening in Syria. Yeah, he represents a fundamental shift. At least he follows through his own language about foreign policy on NATO. What's remarkable about NATO, he wants a need to pull out of NATO in order to neutralize the value NATO has had since World War II.

NATO has been valuable because something called Article 5 and which says one numbers attack is attack on all members. He has said now repeatedly that Article 5 actually does apply as far as he's concerned. He doesn't think the country's spending enough money on its own military. He has to decide whether or not he would come to the aid of an ally.

If that's the case, then NATO has a dead letter because it has no deterrent effect against any enemy. If you don't think Article 5 is invaluable. Yeah, and daddy, he posted on social media over the weekend that the United States should not get involved in what's happening in Syria. Very different posture from what President Biden said.

Again, not a surprise at all. Look, I mean I think the problem with us is we're able to see that Donald Trump wants to negotiate on a variety of issues like immigration, for example. And what we don't see is that he uses these positions to leverage on NATO. We ended up with our NATO allies spending hundreds of billions of dollars more on defense in the time that Donald Trump was in the presidency.

And he always articulates these things. I hope he doesn't mean them. On Syria, Biden had no policy. If we were following through with that, these people would still be under Assad's thumb.

Okay, unfortunately, we have to go. I'm so sorry. I owe you a quick other answer. Guys, thank you so much for being here.

Really appreciate it than you for joining us. We'll be back tomorrow with more media press. Now the news continues with Hallie Jackson right now. I'm Craig.

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